Author Topic: Black Lives Matter !!  (Read 5200 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Black Lives Matter !!
« on: Fri, 05 June 2020, 21:33:12 »
Because Of Course they do.

These protests honestly couldn't have happened without Covid19, black people would've been too busy toiling away @ their jobs.

Stay safe, wear masks.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 10:32:40 »
Mayor Bowser renames the area in front of the white house “Black Lives Matter Plaza.”

-- Straight dope,   washington is scared.

-- This Mayor's voted against equality agendas throughout career, Sociologists warn that despite the (visual) gesture, these are attempts at appeasement of white liberals without ACTUALLY changing anything/ laws.   The battle for equality has barely just begun.


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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 07:25:08 »
What BLM protest is asking may be impossible.

<defund the police> +
<better cops>

The straightforward economics, you won't get better cops by defunding them, they'll get worse.

In most cases, self aware, empathetic humans wouldn't want to work in what's essentially -The Violence- Industry (police, soldiering).

The protestors are also asking for more intelligence, better educated cops. You know what intelligent well educated people can do, literally anything else that pays more w/ minimal physical harms risk.


There are many good cops, Sure. But we're always going to be left with the VAST Majority of societal-dregs filling up uniformed roles because they're the demographic who are uniquely "Willing" to do the job.


Body Cams and Harsh-Accountability is as much as we can hope for.

Offline bliss

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 07:37:31 »
What BLM protest is asking may be impossible.

<defund the police> +
<better cops>

The straightforward economics, you won't get better cops by defunding them, they'll get worse.

In most cases, self aware, empathetic humans wouldn't want to work in what's essentially -The Violence- Industry (police, soldiering).

The protestors are also asking for more intelligence, better educated cops. You know what intelligent well educated people can do, literally anything else that pays more w/ minimal physical harms risk.


There are many good cops, Sure. But we're always going to be left with the VAST Majority of societal-dregs filling up uniformed roles because they're the demographic who are uniquely "Willing" to do the job.


Body Cams and Harsh-Accountability is as much as we can hope for.


Very good point. Why are protesters even asking to defund the police (I will take you for your word that they do)? Retribution?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 07:54:10 »
Very good point. Why are protesters even asking to defund the police (I will take you for your word that they do)? Retribution?

Those are the popular rhetoric thrown around, there's no official list of demands except from the extremists groups.

Offline bliss

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:03:18 »
Very good point. Why are protesters even asking to defund the police (I will take you for your word that they do)? Retribution?

Those are the popular rhetoric thrown around, there's no official list of demands except from the extremists groups.


Very well because I get my news straight from gh :)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:07:47 »
Very well because I get my news straight from gh :)

If it shows up HERE, you can bet it's important.

/Calibration is lyfe

Offline bliss

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 08:14:18 »

/Calibration is lyfe


Thanks, tp4. I savor this moment <3

Offline 1391401

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 13:37:52 »
Very good point. Why are protesters even asking to defund the police (I will take you for your word that they do)? Retribution?
The sentiment I've heard a few times is that if you "go after their money" (paid leave, pensions) then it will be more effective at keeping them in line as opposed to trying to train them to not kill people for minor offenses.  I've also heard outcry about "militarized police forces" which may factor into the whole defunding thing (i.e. local small town police forces equipped with HMMWVs and AR15s). 
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Offline bliss

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 17:15:44 »
Very good point. Why are protesters even asking to defund the police (I will take you for your word that they do)? Retribution?
The sentiment I've heard a few times is that if you "go after their money" (paid leave, pensions) then it will be more effective at keeping them in line as opposed to trying to train them to not kill people for minor offenses.  I've also heard outcry about "militarized police forces" which may factor into the whole defunding thing (i.e. local small town police forces equipped with HMMWVs and AR15s).

So there are calls for before-the-fact (of unwarranted violence) defunding to demilitarize police forces, and after-the-fact defunding as a threat of punishment as I understand it. Interesting.

Your post is 1337 by the way (timestamp) :)

Offline Steve7722

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 17:19:18 »
It will be interesting to see these protests make any difference after they are over.
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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 17:38:31 »
1

Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 20:29:01 »
sigh.. the reason rural police have AR's is because of the same reason basically all police do at this point ...  The North Hollywood Shootout in 1997.



We have a violent and stupid society ... it should be no surprise that our police services are also sometimes violent and stupid....   Unless we address our societal violence, none of this matters....   

When I go to to Europe it is like I can relax finally....   walking around , driving. taking public transport... going to the pub..etc... all seem incredibly less stressful and dangerous than doing these things in pretty much any city in the united states...


Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 20:40:13 »

it will be more effective at keeping them in line as opposed to trying to train them to not kill people for minor offenses


The best solution that I have heard is simpler and more straightforward. People in critical occupations: drivers, pilots, etc, must be insured for liability on an individual basis.

As soon as any individual exhibits problematic behavior, insurance companies take note and raise their rates. After a small number of offenses they refuse to insure the individual altogether. 

A police officer who was uninsureable  would be unemployable and most of the problems would simply go away. How many of these problem guys did not have a previous record of abuse? Very few to none.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 12:39:45 »
https://i.imgur.com/iSlH3SG.gifv

Woah, look at that turnout.

Gotta be careful guys,  This could go Civil war.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 14:39:46 »

This could go Civil war.


The gun crazies will go berserk when Trump loses in November, and there will be a huge wave of domestic terrorism. They will say that it is justified, somehow.

Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 14:58:20 »
I'm not so sure trump would lose.   Against Bernie, Absolutely,    against biden, mmm..

look at Gbushjr,  and the crap job he did, still got 2 terms.

Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 15:35:15 »
if things do go more sideways.. it doesn't matter what anyone w/ their AR or whatever does...  it matters what the Military does... ever seen a mini gun in action??? or a hellfire missile? ..or ...etc way more deadly at way longer ranges that anyone's civilian AR/AK ..etc rifles.

and blah blah.. Afghanistan jihadists held up the Russians and Americans for years... blah blah... ain't nobody strapping on a suicide vest for defunding the police or for supply side economics...   The American population doesn't have the stomach for that kinda war....

In my view any unrest would be ended quickly in favor of whatever side the military decides to support..... unless god forbid the military fragments and starts fighting on various sides.... which would be a blood bath certainly.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 16:55:50 »
If you're referring to the fact that , no political coup ever succeeded without the support of the incumbent military,  This is true.

But to think it'd turn into ROBOCOP 2/3.  Idk....

The only way they can use SO MUCH force, in the past against black people is resultant of the LACK of internet, and advanced digital recording. Nothing would hold them accountable. But if they do something like that NOW, america would fold inwards on itself. <As is happening>


Think about it this way. Assume our military is super racist, and they decide to start murdering BLM openly.

This will trigger WW3, any country that wants a piece of the US, will have a legitimate reason to come take a bite.  And over the years, that's everyone else. Heck I bet a bunch of canadians want 'murican blood.  Mexico, are you kidding, they're Ready 2 Go Apesh##.

Then you have to look at population of occupying force and standing army.  Who has the largest growing population  AFRICA.  Russia wouldn't even have to use its own army, they can just boat over black people from africa, and tell them, Hey, Y'all know what to do.  And you've already seen the photos of African children holding AK47s.  They're well indoctrinated for this sort of thing.


Now, the white supremacists might think, HECK USA GOT NooKES.  No, believe it or not,  Nooques are only useful if you're the ONLY person who has them.  IF any other player has Nooques,  you simply can not use Nooques.

This is a known military fact deduced by the greatest minds during the creation of these weapons. People such as polymath Von neumann, < incidentally he was super racist, and wanted to nooq everyone >,  he clearly outlined for the politicians, you either do it now, or never do it, because afterwards you can't.

A SINGLE major detonation above the atmosphere, even if it DOES NOT LAND, will cripple the nation's entire electrical infrastructure.  If we duke it out that way, It's mutual destruction.

HECK, maybe that will happen.   Tp4 has tried pretty much everything in this life, no regarats.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 17:56:37 »
It will be interesting to see these protests make any difference after they are over.

Don't worry steve,  It's guaranteed to work this time.

Look at it this way.  The reason for the limited success of past Black-movements is because black people only ever occupied the lowest societal rungs.

However, the Black people of today have access to the best education, intermingle with upper echelon society, have access to weapons,  MILITARY SECRETS..

Now, suppose the military goes Max-racist,  what would stop a disgruntled Black-guy sending over some top-intel to Russia or China.

There's no way to directly suppress the revolt, when the black population is already this integrated,  and Now unified by something systemically irreconcilable, White-power.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 18:03:37 »
BLM can get Bernie as president or even Obama 3rd term.   

There are no sacrificial lambs the government can offer up to qualm the out-rage which is something that's been building for 50 years. They can put trvmp's head on a spike, black people would be happy, but they wouldn't be appeased.

HOWEVER,  if they put Bernie back on the Ballot, and Make sure he wins..

MAYBE, Just maybe, This is probably the most economical way to reach armistice. 

For sure biden is useless,  half of americans don't even know what biden looks like.

Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 20:27:54 »
BLM can get Bernie as president or even Obama 3rd term.   

There are no sacrificial lambs the government can offer up to qualm the out-rage which is something that's been building for 50 years. They can put trvmp's head on a spike, black people would be happy, but they wouldn't be appeased.

HOWEVER,  if they put Bernie back on the Ballot, and Make sure he wins..

MAYBE, Just maybe, This is probably the most economical way to reach armistice. 

For sure biden is useless,  half of americans don't even know what biden looks like.


interesting that you think the thing to make blacks happy is a hella old communist socialist?... Jewish dude.... fair enough... what a time to be alive...    anyone old enough to remember "Hymie-town" incident?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-10-19-tm-5850-story.html


maybe if Biden would take his mask off people would know what he looks like.... if not just google old white guy ... you'll get the gist


also again for anyone who thinks civil war is on the table... watch this video TWICE, then pray to god you are wrong...  An A-10 Warthog engaging a structure in Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 June 2020, 20:52:57 by atarione »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 08 June 2020, 21:51:12 »
interesting that you think the thing to make blacks happy is a hella old communist socialist?... Jewish dude.... fair enough... what a time to be alive... 

also again for anyone who thinks civil war is on the table... watch this video TWICE, then pray to god you are wrong...  An A-10 Warthog engaging a structure in Afghanistan.

Bernie's campaigned against segregation since his Youth.  Black people like him plenty.

And He's FOR REAL NOT a racist.  unlike Biden, who is probably another closet racist.

As for the Warthog.  They can't use that on civilians, the moment they do that, It's Civil war.

You can kill lots of black people, but you'd fracture America, and the WOLVES will come.

America doesn't have to worry about the natives.  Just GIVE Russia and China a reason to LIBERATE America's black people. They'll fvkn' do it.   They'll send their tankers to Africa, load up the freedom fighters, and hand them AK47s.

Not only that of course, Black people in high lvl military positions would instantly turn over classified intel, etc.   And it's GG.

Americans today can barely speak english,  good luck learning Russian/Chinese

Remember, america Lost Vietnam because it lost public support.  Without just cause you can't fight a war.  If america kills a bunch of native black people, it stands alone.

Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 00:36:24 »
interesting that you think the thing to make blacks happy is a hella old communist socialist?... Jewish dude.... fair enough... what a time to be alive... 

also again for anyone who thinks civil war is on the table... watch this video TWICE, then pray to god you are wrong...  An A-10 Warthog engaging a structure in Afghanistan.

Bernie's campaigned against segregation since his Youth.  Black people like him plenty.

And He's FOR REAL NOT a racist.  unlike Biden, who is probably another closet racist.

As for the Warthog.  They can't use that on civilians, the moment they do that, It's Civil war.

You can kill lots of black people, but you'd fracture America, and the WOLVES will come.

America doesn't have to worry about the natives.  Just GIVE Russia and China a reason to LIBERATE America's black people. They'll fvkn' do it.   They'll send their tankers to Africa, load up the freedom fighters, and hand them AK47s.

Not only that of course, Black people in high lvl military positions would instantly turn over classified intel, etc.   And it's GG.

Americans today can barely speak english,  good luck learning Russian/Chinese

Remember, america Lost Vietnam because it lost public support.  Without just cause you can't fight a war.  If america kills a bunch of native black people, it stands alone.



just to be clear... I'm not suggesting any unrest / internal conflict is going to be racially based....  I'm assuming it would be red  vs blue ... city vs rural... etc... nobody actually gives that much of a  damn about race.... however there are people that wish to try to make everything about race...

whatever...   if a split / conflict develops along whatever lines.... my point was (and remains) if the military (mostly) joins one side or the other .. then the conflict is over before it really starts... see A10 video....

We may suck at nation building but we still rule at nation unbuilding... neither the Russians or the Chinese (currently) have any chance in hell of doing much militarily to the US for the time being, even if the military was busy wrapping up some sort of insurrection...  of course baring a nuclear conflict which is in nobody's interests...

The United States has 11 large nuclear aircraft carriers... the russians (1) however technically zero because it caught on fire and is basically totaled.    the chinese.... 2 active... and much less capable than American Fleet carriers...

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 00:48:41 »
We may suck at nation building but we still rule at nation unbuilding... neither the Russians or the Chinese (currently) have any chance in hell of doing much militarily to the US for the time being, even if the military was busy wrapping up some sort of insurrection...  of course baring a nuclear conflict which is in nobody's interests...

The United States has 11 large nuclear aircraft carriers... the russians (1) however technically zero because it caught on fire and is basically totaled.    the chinese.... 2 active... and much less capable than American Fleet carriers...

You greatly misunderstand Carriers.  The reason the modern militarys have not invested in them is because they're BEYOND useless.

Even the French managed to Sink an American carrier during war games, THE FRENCH.

Not only that, but Subs have gotten so good and stealth, that carriers are plain prey.

They're good for oppressing 3rd world nations w/out a real military, but it ends there.

In modern warfare they're too easily sunk.  Every sinking of a carrier which carries ~5000 people, would be a crippling of moral.  Retired military general has already quoted how it's basically a giant waste of money, because we simply can not afford to lose one under any circumstance.  And modern Missiles greatly outrange carriers, which means they can't even get close to any real opposition.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 02:08:17 »
The carrier today is what the battleship was in WW2, outdated and over the hill.

We can get a B2 anywhere in the world (from the U.S.) within 24 hours. Yes, you can park a carrier off the coast but we have bases all over the world at this point that are within range of almost any country (and we have cruise missiles!) so is it really that beneficial other than for political reasons? Not to mention have you seen the Russian anti-ship missiles or the new torpedoes they're developing?

Our enemies aren't nearly as scared of them as you think, they see them as a fragile floating multi-billion dollar coffin.
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Offline iri

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 10:25:10 »
Your 'enemies' are busy telling you how to vote. They don't care about sea based penis enlargement.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

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Offline Kavik

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:06:00 »
They don't care about sea based penis enlargement.

Quite possibly the best quote I've seen on GH. I may add this to my signature.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

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Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:15:17 »
The carrier today is what the battleship was in WW2, outdated and over the hill.

We can get a B2 anywhere in the world (from the U.S.) within 24 hours. Yes, you can park a carrier off the coast but we have bases all over the world at this point that are within range of almost any country (and we have cruise missiles!) so is it really that beneficial other than for political reasons? Not to mention have you seen the Russian anti-ship missiles or the new torpedoes they're developing?

Our enemies aren't nearly as scared of them as you think, they see them as a fragile floating multi-billion dollar coffin.

There is a lot of speculation...   Since the Navy has spent so much on these things ... I'm fairly certain that classified counter measures are either deployed or coming ...  most likely already deployed.

Even if you took the aircraft carriers out of the equation attack subs and other military assets could keep any force from touching American (mainland) soil.... currently....  even if other parts of the military were engaged in mopping up some internal conflict...

Regardless such a scenario has huge down sides for any potential opponents, so much so that none would opt for such a costly strategy.

If the aircraft carrier is outdated it is strange that the Chinese have been and continue to pour huge sums into trying to build carriers.. 

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 14:27:25 »
There is a lot of speculation...   Since the Navy has spent so much on these things ... I'm fairly certain that classified counter measures are either deployed or coming ...  most likely already deployed.

Even if you took the aircraft carriers out of the equation attack subs and other military assets could keep any force from touching American (mainland) soil.... currently....  even if other parts of the military were engaged in mopping up some internal conflict...

Regardless such a scenario has huge down sides for any potential opponents, so much so that none would opt for such a costly strategy.

If the aircraft carrier is outdated it is strange that the Chinese have been and continue to pour huge sums into trying to build carriers.. 

Atrione where are you getting your information. Tp4 is a frequenter of military hardware forums. This is already accepted common knowledge. Carriers are useless.

Both Russian and China subs have surfaced in the middle of American military drill and exercises as demonstration that clearly they're difficult to spot.

The reason carriers are maintained and built by the US is primarily a political tax revenue for the States that build them.  It's nothing but money grubbing. Its real military utility in modern warfare is 0.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:22:07 »
Your 'enemies' are busy telling you how to vote.

They don't care about sea based penis enlargement.

Quite possibly the best quote I've seen on GH.

Yes, a truly precise as well as concise observation.
 
Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
- Jimmy Carter 2015

Offline Steve7722

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Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 16:48:51 »
oh boy
Show Image


https://twitter.com/EarlyPostTweets/status/1270447493684375553

good for them.... most police are decent folks.. this has gotten stupid... they all call in sick a few days and people will be begging them to come back...

imagine this hell hole with a Police sick out?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52984535

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:28:46 »
oh boy
Show Image


https://twitter.com/EarlyPostTweets/status/1270447493684375553

good for them.... most police are decent folks.. this has gotten stupid... they all call in sick a few days and people will be begging them to come back...

imagine this hell hole with a Police sick out?

Police racism is a systemic problem that runs-Deep.

Unfortunately the Union threatening to stop working is their default play whenever they're called upon to better themselves. They've defended Racist behaviors and Protected officers from answering for their crimes.

Not only does the police need restructuring, Society must reconvene to consider the ROLE of the police.

AS IS, they're a corrupt and ineffective institution and commit racist acts without accountability.

It's not just black people, Police are the worst purpetrators of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

Cops beat their wives, then manipulate the system to escape punishment.

The slogan COPS ARE PIGS, not all, just TOO MANY. Up to 40% of police wives and family experience domestic violence vs 10% in the general population.   This happens because the cops in the current arrangement too easily escapes Accountability.

http://womenandpolicing.com/violenceFS.asp

Offline atarione

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:37:14 »
There is a lot of speculation...   Since the Navy has spent so much on these things ... I'm fairly certain that classified counter measures are either deployed or coming ...  most likely already deployed.

Even if you took the aircraft carriers out of the equation attack subs and other military assets could keep any force from touching American (mainland) soil.... currently....  even if other parts of the military were engaged in mopping up some internal conflict...

Regardless such a scenario has huge down sides for any potential opponents, so much so that none would opt for such a costly strategy.

If the aircraft carrier is outdated it is strange that the Chinese have been and continue to pour huge sums into trying to build carriers.. 

Atrione where are you getting your information. Tp4 is a frequenter of military hardware forums. This is already accepted common knowledge. Carriers are useless.

Both Russian and China subs have surfaced in the middle of American military drill and exercises as demonstration that clearly they're difficult to spot.

The reason carriers are maintained and built by the US is primarily a political tax revenue for the States that build them.  It's nothing but money grubbing. Its real military utility in modern warfare is 0.


I'm not even sure where to start on this.... military hardware forums... come on man.....   I'm going to just move on.. because I'll sound like a ****... with any response to this I have thought of So far..

I do not know if it has occurred to you, that the American Navy probably was well aware of these subs ... but what is actually pretty slick is if you can convince the Chinese or Russians that their subs are able to penetrate your defensive perimeter undetected ... when they can not...

Consider this convincing your enemy their capabilities are great than they actually are isn't a bad idea... In WWII the US and UK went well out of their way to keep the fact the Enigma code was broken from being determined.. thus the Germans continued using it and providing continuing information..

Letting everyone know exactly what your military capabilities are is not a good idea and nobody is going to do that...   so one thing we can be certain of is the carrier battle groups have defensive capabilities that are classified for obvious reasons.. much like the Russians and Chinese are trying to keep all of their capabilities from being known.



Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 09 June 2020, 17:53:50 »
I'm not even sure where to start on this.... military hardware forums... come on man.....   I'm going to just move on.. because I'll sound like a ****... with any response to this I have thought of So far..

I do not know if it has occurred to you, that the American Navy probably was well aware of these subs ... but what is actually pretty slick is if you can convince the Chinese or Russians that their subs are able to penetrate your defensive perimeter undetected ... when they can not...

Consider this convincing your enemy their capabilities are great than they actually are isn't a bad idea... In WWII the US and UK went well out of their way to keep the fact the Enigma code was broken from being determined.. thus the Germans continued using it and providing continuing information..

Letting everyone know exactly what your military capabilities are is not a good idea and nobody is going to do that...   so one thing we can be certain of is the carrier battle groups have defensive capabilities that are classified for obvious reasons.. much like the Russians and Chinese are trying to keep all of their capabilities from being known.

Highly recommend you brush up on modern warfare.

We can Barely detect warships on the Surface,  Let along in the water.

It's an open book, Modern Subs when submerged are undetectable, BY ANYONE..

Then comes the fact that hypersonic missiles (Unblockable) can deploy from 400 miles out. Do you know how big a SPHERE that makes UNDER WATER..

On top of the fact that there are now more mobile and suicidal Drone Subs which can lay submerged nearly indefinitely waiting.

Carriers have to operate SO FAR AWAY from the shore , that their utility as force projection is completely non-existent. What is it gonna shoot at in the middle of the water by itself,  its planes can't reach targets, the battle group can't leave it, a giant sinkhole of uselessness.

Your failure to understand this is plain ignorance.  This is something you can look up.

There's no need for an argument. It's already a fact.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 01:19:25 »
There is a lot of speculation...   Since the Navy has spent so much on these things ... I'm fairly certain that classified counter measures are either deployed or coming ...  most likely already deployed.

If the aircraft carrier is outdated it is strange that the Chinese have been and continue to pour huge sums into trying to build carriers..
You have FAR too much faith in our military and leaders.

Russia has had these missiles (some of which are hypersonic) for a while, our best defense is to literally make a wall of explosive bullets using the CWIS. It works but it's not perfect and can be inundated pretty easily. We're also working on a laser defense system as well as electronic counter measures. It only takes one of these to take out a carrier and at the speed they travel there's little time to do much (I question a laser being capable any time soon).

As for carriers themselves, let me explain a bit of military history for you...
In 1921 General Billy Mitchell said he could take out a Battleship with bombers, they laughed and demoted him. Seven years later he managed to do a demonstration where even with the odds stacked against him he proved his point. They claimed he cheated then tried to fire him, public outcry saved him. 25 years later the Japanese attacked and our battleship fleet was in ruins. Carriers became capital ships by default, not by choice of the Navy.

That remains today.
Reagan wanted to bring back the Battleship. Our current Senate has recently considered bringing them back and even Trump has said as much. And no, they don't mean build new ones, they actually want to bring the old Iowa class out of mothballs even before we start building new ones. It's not militarily advantageous to bring them back, it's simply political. "Look at what we have!"  Why keep our carriers? Because at least they're more usefull than battleships. Seriously, that's really about the best reason, we don't need them, just like we really don't need bombers,* but they too are a political tool.   
 
The government and military loves their toys, the bigger and more of them the better.
They don't care the reasons or justifications, the fact that they can have a carrier is the only reason they need to have a carrier.   Do we NEED 11 carriers, of course not, but WE CAN so we do.



Why are the Chinese building one?
There's two primary reasons to have a carrier, political and force extension. Carriers are a symbol of world power, something China desperately wants to show. As for force extension, we have airstrips the world over and long range aircraft, two things China still greatly lacks. Their only option to extend the range of their forces is with a carrier.


*We have cruise missiles. Cruise missiles are a bit over $1mil per missile. Not cheap. However, consider the manpower, fuel, training, etc. behind a ship or bomber to put bombs on target, suddenly it's really not far off even for a cheap bomb and if you lose just a single ship or aircraft the odds greatly tip in favor of the cruise missile. B2. "But Battleships use guns and bullets are cheap!" One problem with bringing back battleships was gun range, they solved this with a 130mile range rail gun, sounds great except 130 miles isn't far enough and worse, each round cost more than a cruise missile, which is more accurate and can be fired from land, air or a smaller ship. All of which is precisely why cruise missiles have been favored by the last few Presidents for retaliation, even when a carrier is sitting right off the coast.
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Offline ergonaut

  • Posts: 88
Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 04:48:38 »
https://i.imgur.com/iSlH3SG.gifv

Woah, look at that turnout.

Gotta be careful guys,  This could go Civil war.


I love the big-ass scientology poster in that gif.

Offline dgneo

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 05:05:54 »
oh boy
Show Image


https://twitter.com/EarlyPostTweets/status/1270447493684375553

good for them.... most police are decent folks.. this has gotten stupid... they all call in sick a few days and people will be begging them to come back...

imagine this hell hole with a Police sick out?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52984535

found the bootlicker

Offline iri

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 05:07:10 »
It's impressive how fast this topic got from BLM to walls of explosive bullets.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 05:19:20 »
I'm sad COPS got caught in the crossfire of this. That show was always there when you were drunk at 4am before internet days, like losing a friend.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 07:30:15 »

Carriers became capital ships by default


Iri is correct that massive slow military hardware is obsolete in the struggle between "major" nations, who now engage in cyberspace and economics, but aircraft carriers still have their place.

In a conflict between a major nation like the US and a much smaller and less advanced adversary, an aircraft carrier(s) parked off the coast may be appropriate for the scale and proximity to the conflict.
Citizens United violates the essence of what made America a great country in its political system. Now it’s just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president.
So now we’ve just seen a complete subversion of our political system as a payoff to major contributors, who want and expect and sometimes get favors for themselves after the election’s over.”
- Jimmy Carter 2015

Offline bliss

  • Posts: 174
Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 07:39:26 »
I'm sad COPS got caught in the crossfire of this. That show was always there when you were drunk at 4am before internet days, like losing a friend.

Like Teletubbies were in the 90s for ravers coming home from the afterhours party of a major rave they visited first. Not talking about myself.

Offline Aaron_92

  • Posts: 5
Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 08:05:20 »
It's hard to see whether this moment is really different or not, only time will tell. What we do see is its widespread. We hope it will, right to protest for right.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Black Lives Matter !!
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 10 June 2020, 21:14:32 »

Carriers became capital ships by default


Iri is correct that massive slow military hardware is obsolete in the struggle between "major" nations, who now engage in cyberspace and economics, but aircraft carriers still have their place.

In a conflict between a major nation like the US and a much smaller and less advanced adversary, an aircraft carrier(s) parked off the coast may be appropriate for the scale and proximity to the conflict.
Less advanced...
There isn't really a less advanced adversary because whenever a larger more advanced country gets involved witha  smaller one the enemies of that larger country flod that smaller one with weapons to create a proxy war.

North Korea is fed weapons by China and Russia, often back channeled through Iran
Cuba was fed weapons by Russia.
Vietnam was backed by China, especially once we got involved
Iraq was fed weapons by us and later Russia and now once again by us.
Al Queada was was fed weapons by us
Iran is fed weapons by Russia and China, but during their revolution in the 70's we fed them weapons.
Isis was fed weapons by us, confiscated weapons we left behind and they also buy black market
Ukraine rebels are backed by Russia.

These smaller countries may not have the air or sea power we do, but don't under estimate what kind of firepower they have at their disposal. Even something shoulder fired today can do a LOT of damage, which is why our fleet always gets nervous when even a small raft gets close.


I'm not saying carriers are worthless, we used battleships to pound the beaches on D-day and all through the Pacific. We still fly B-52s daily. That doesn't mean their best days aren't behind them and that they aren't extremely vulnerable, they just need to be used in a different manner than they were intended. We tend to park our carriers much further out to sea than we used to, we also have a much larger exclusion zone around them to protect them. That's not always possible though in places like the Straight of Hormuz.  Being further out also slows the response and usefulness. I'm not saying retire them, just that they aren't the tools they once were and we should stop pretending they are.
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