Author Topic: Problem with no solution?  (Read 2172 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Problem with no solution?
« on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:45:35 »
Hi guys,

So here's a challenge for you-- a product search that even my research skills can't accomplish. The solution to this problem may or may not wind up being a keyboard. Details follow.

Right now, I'm mainly happy with my input setup. The one issue is the lack of a centered, secondary pointing device, to use for tasks that involve lots of switching between keyboard and mouse. The best thing for such tasks, of course, would be a keyboard with a TrackPoint, but since nobody has yet invented an acceptable solution to the problems associated with low- or medium-volume TrackPoint keyboard production, I'd also be willing to consider other centrally-positioned pointing solutions, such as a trackball placed below the keyboard where I can use it with my thumb from typing position.

Unfortunately, I can't find any way of doing this that isn't unacceptable in one or more ways. Either the centered pointing device is slow (the solution has to leave the behavior of my mouse untouched while both pointing devices remain connected at all times, so I won't change Windows pointer settings. Software for configuration is acceptable, but software that has to be running for things to function properly is not acceptable), or it's some weird device with physical endpoints (no RollerMouse or MouseTrapper; the device has to either allow continuous motion forever, like a trackball or trackpoint, or be designed so that the physical frompoint can be changed without moving the cursor, like with a mouse [lift off] or a touchpad [take finger off]), or it's in some other way a poor performer, or it's built into a keyboard that is in some way unacceptable (must have MX Black and at least 6KRO; NKRO is preferred). I won't accept any solution that increases the physical depth or width of my setup (Noppoo TANK + EliteKeyboards 3-Star palm rest), or which involves more than two elements (too much clutter, and too many gaps), or which means that I will no longer have a wrist rest on both sides-- these criteria would seem to rule out a "normal" trackball with mouse-sized wrist rests on either side, or a keyboard with an attached pointing device coming off the bottom but no built-in wrist rests on either side of it. Ideally, I wouldn't have to suffer any reduction in wrist rest comfort or quality, but I'm willing to compromise here, so long as there's some form of semi-soft wrist rest and I don't wind up with one of those nasty gel ones where the seams come apart and dirt-crusted, sticky gel gets all over the place.

No DIY-- I'm really good at DIY stuff, so long as the goal is to break something and then throw it out; unfortunately, that's the only type of DIY project that I can do, and all other types of DIY will wind up becoming that. I only have one PS/2 port, so a solution that requires a PS/2 port for the keyboard and another one for the pointing device is out, unless it can go through a USB adapter without losing performance. Strict standards for durability apply-- I don't care about the kind of "quality" that's just a matter of looks, but I am not compatible with weak devices.

So far, the closest thing I've found to a solution would be the iOne Libra 35-- basically a keyboard wrist rest with a built-in trackball or touchpad, depending on version. Unfortunately, research suggests that this device fails on pointer quality and build quality, and I have zero interest in spending my time and/or money trying out products that are likely to fail on even one of the above criteria, let alone two.

Any ideas?
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline daerid

  • Posts: 4276
  • Location: Denver, CO
    • Rossipedia
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:49:20 »
Shame about the DIY stuff. I'm probably going to put a Kensington Slimblade between the two sides of my ErgoDox, was gonna suggest you do the same.

Offline Dali

  • Posts: 16
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:54:19 »
You could get a ThinkPad USB keyboard:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/itemdetails/55Y9003/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7

Then there's this rare IBM Model M13 with a trackpoint:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/9244

Or you can DIY, but you said you don't want to:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0
My keyboard journey: KBC Poker X, KMAC 2, Realforce R2 PFU, F77 Model F

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:56:20 »
Shame about the DIY stuff. I'm probably going to put a Kensington Slimblade between the two sides of my ErgoDox, was gonna suggest you do the same.

Sounds like a neat idea, though I'm not attracted to the whole split keyboard concept-- I don't type correctly, and sometimes play games that involve hitting keys on the right side of the keyboard with the left hand while using the mouse with the right, so I'd rather not go that route if at all possible.

And, of course, if I tried to build an ErgoDox, I'd probably wind up melting it and then setting myself on fire. Or maybe the other way around. Depends on whether it's more meltable than I am flammable, or visa versa.
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:57:06 »
You could get a ThinkPad USB keyboard:
http://shop.lenovo.com/us/itemdetails/55Y9003/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7

Then there's this rare IBM Model M13 with a trackpoint:
http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/9244

Both of these fail the keyboard requirements in terms of both switch and rollover.
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:57:37 »
Take an Apple Mighty mouse, stick it to the surface, and remap "wheel" movement to pointer movement. Problem solved, unless you think of another ridiculous reason why it wouldn't work.

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 13:59:55 »
Take an Apple Mighty mouse, stick it to the surface, and remap "wheel" movement to pointer movement. Problem solved, unless you think of another ridiculous reason why it wouldn't work.

Fails on number of elements, unless glued, in which case it fails on DIY and probably durability-- not to mention that I cringe at the very thought of letting glue near my nice wrist rest. Also, wouldn't it have to be sideways?

Also, doesn't the Mighty Mouse need its software running in order to work?
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:06:00 »
Wrist rest with a built in trackball?

Also, the single ps/2 port is not an issue.  You can split a ps/2 port with Y cable like this and get full functionality.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:06:26 »
Do it using a webcam, so that we can have some fun watching you glue yourself to the table. ^-^

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:16:02 »
Wrist rest with a built in trackball?

Also, the single ps/2 port is not an issue.  You can split a ps/2 port with Y cable like this and get full functionality.

That's the Libra 35-- or a rebranded version thereof--  that I was talking about originally. As I said, it's the closest thing that I've been able to find, but it gets very negative reviews, which criticize it on both trackball performance and build quality. I might wind up buying it anyway though...we'll see.

Good to know about the PS/2 ports.

Do it using a webcam, so that we can have some fun watching you glue yourself to the table. ^-^

The sad thing is, based on previous projects, that's probably the least of my worries. Based on my track record, I'd probably wind up destroying the Mighty Mouse, my wrist rest, and my keyboard-- usually, anything even vaguely related to one of my electronics-related projects winds up destroyed. For reference, my last attempt at keyboard modding cost me not one but two keyboards, and I don't think I'll ever get all of the remains of melted Tupperware container off of my soldering iron. :(
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:30:47 by FoxWolf1 »
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline berserkfan

  • Posts: 2135
  • Location: Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS Not CONUS
  • changing diapers is more fun than model f assembly
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:32:55 »
another solution is to put a microtrak trackball in front of your space bar. Microtraks are only about 2 inches deep and 2 inches wide. The only DIY you have to do is to cut your wrist rest into two and stick the microtrak in between.

You should be able to get 1 really cheap if you lurk on ebay long enough. Somebody was trying to sell 3 on ebay for 14 bucks and nobody wanted to buy! (With my kensingtons, I have no reason to get a micro trak.)
Most of the modding can be done on your own once you break through the psychological barriers.

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 14:50:26 »
another solution is to put a microtrak trackball in front of your space bar. Microtraks are only about 2 inches deep and 2 inches wide. The only DIY you have to do is to cut your wrist rest into two and stick the microtrak in between.

You should be able to get 1 really cheap if you lurk on ebay long enough. Somebody was trying to sell 3 on ebay for 14 bucks and nobody wanted to buy! (With my kensingtons, I have no reason to get a micro trak.)

I'll look into these "Microtraks", though I was really hoping to avoid the clutter and gaps of a trackball and two separate, small wrist rests (I'm not going to start cutting on a $70 wrist rest, and even if I did, the unfinished sides would bother me, and it wouldn't really do much about the clutter issue; plus, I don't think I actually have anything that could cut through the metal bar inside).

Do you reckon it'd be possible to swap the mechanism from one of these, or another decent trackball, into a Libra 35? Bearing in mind, of course, that by "possible" I mean "possible for me", meaning preferably without any cutting, soldering, or precision glue-ing.
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline chill1217

  • Posts: 43
  • Location: United States
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 16:47:44 »
simple solution:

if you don't need that much pointing accuracy, you can use software like autohotkey to rebind some of your keyboard buttons/keyboard shortcuts to simulate mouse movement and clicking

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13571
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 17:03:44 »
simple solution:

if you don't need that much pointing accuracy, you can use software like autohotkey to rebind some of your keyboard buttons/keyboard shortcuts to simulate mouse movement and clicking

Thx...

Offline E TwentyNine

  • Posts: 884
    • Some of My Keyboards
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 17:58:09 »
There is something called a Micromodule Mouse.  That's an old one, newer one looks like this.

Also, a Durapoint mouse, which I think you could just let sit on the wrist rest without cutting up anything.

Or, get a presenter mouse.  Like this one, and do something similar.
Daily driver: SSK or Tenkeyless IBM AT
1984 Model M Industrial Prototype ⌨ 1992 Black Oval Industrial SSK ⌨ 1982 5251 Beam Spring ⌨ 89 Key "SSK" ⌨ M13 triplets

Offline hasu

  • Posts: 3475
  • Location: Tokyo, Japan
  • @tmk
    • tmk keyboard firmware project
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 19:43:41 »
As mentioned above,
With decent window manager and tweak of application configuration mouse keys will work well enough for secondary pointing device. You can use mouse keys under your palm such like WASD,IJKL or HJKL keys instead of numberpad with remap tools. With this my problem of switching between keyboard and mouse has gone and it is my primary pointing device now.

If you heavily depend on physical pointing device for windowing tasks like switch, resize, move, close or scrolling at this time you will suffer from transition from your current pointing device to mouse keys.

Offline noisyturtle

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6432
  • comfortably numb
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:11:05 »
I'm not sure if this is the type of solution you would consider.
19378-0

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:15:48 »
There is something called a Micromodule Mouse.  That's an old one, newer one looks like this.

Also, a Durapoint mouse, which I think you could just let sit on the wrist rest without cutting up anything.

Or, get a presenter mouse.  Like this one, and do something similar.


Do you have any information about the pointing characteristics of these devices? Are they fast enough to be used comfortably at modern resolutions at 6/11 Windows pointer speed, enhance precision set to "off"?

I dunno, guys. So far, it seems like the hardware-based suggestions that are coming are ideas that would lead to some kind of jury-rigged setup, which is really not the quality of result that I'm looking for. I don't find the idea of a mess with things stacked on top of other things or stuff cut up or glued together to be appealing in the slightest. 

Has anyone ever made a keyboard similar to the KeyTronic Trackball-U2, but with a better trackball component, keyboard meeting my specifications, and a leather or high-quality cloth wrist rest specially fitted for the shape? Or a wrist rest like the Libra 35 but, well, better, and with the right width for a full-size keyboard?

As for mouse keys...it's an interesting idea, and I've played with keyboard-based mouse control a bit, but it's always seemed very awkward to me, even after I was forced to practice for a while after accidentally disabling my mouse with a USB filter (another project gone wrong)-- there are trackballs and touchpads that I would reject (in fact, most touchpad makers seem to do a terrible job of it, though there are occasional exceptions) as not being good enough, but which I would still consider to be far better than keyboard keys. Unless there's some way of making them a lot, well, better, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about that idea for now.
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:56:56 by FoxWolf1 »
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104

Offline FoxWolf1

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 850
  • 154
Re: Problem with no solution?
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:19:20 »
I'm not sure if this is the type of solution you would consider.
(Attachment Link)

That is a very pretty keyboard, but it really wouldn't do for this purpose. Leaving aside for a moment that the trackball is off to the side, and potential concerns about its sensitivity, the main issue with that keyboard is that a Model M is too big for my setup (I have one, and it has to stay in the closet for this reason). I really don't have any room to spare in terms of depth-- the back of my Noppoo touches the feet of my monitor, and the front of it touches the back of the wrist rest, which comes up almost to the edge of the desk.
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 April 2013, 20:40:56 by FoxWolf1 »
Oberhofer Model 1101 | PadTech Hall Effect (Prototype) | RK RC930-104 v2 | IBM Model M | Noppoo TANK | Keycool Hero 104