Understanding the HongKong situation. [Long read]

[tp4tissue]

TO BE CLEAR... Tp4 is supportive an independent HK,  just as we are moving towards decentralized Solar power,  Humanity should also move towards decentralized governance as WE HAVE the Technology to do it.. COMPUTERS FTW..



HOWEVER::::  East Asia is a patriarchal society.

They cling to a very antiquated form of pride, colloquially known as 面子, roughly translated, it's akin to esteem.

HK seceding China would be like Rhode island (Old, when they were rich) seceding the United States. People would laugh, haha, big USA let little rhode island beat them.

Now, you may think, Hey, Taiwan's doing JUST FINE.  China doesn't seem to be doing anything about their nonstop succession-chatter.

The difference between Taiwan and HK is that Taiwan has TSMC, a frontier technology, that as of current, China can not replicate internally/ reproduce. But , it'll happen eventually, it's not something insurmountably advanced and just as a matter of total brain power, it's inevitable that the Larger Organism surpass a smaller one. HK has some waterfront real-estate (of value) but no high tech specialization, and so they have no real leverage, even to talk about succession.


Fundamentally , The MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is what makes any piece of Land Sovereign,   either by direct nationhood, or proxy (neighbor protection).


No such power exists to protect HK,  because there's no raw value in HK worth the expense of that force.

America went into Iraq for OIL,  it's worth the expense. The disruption and dis-united Middle East keep prices Low,   had it not been this way,  The middle east would be the wealthiest and most powerful nations on this planet simply for their natural resources.


The US army has never "Liberated" anyone who didn't have the natural resources to pay for the effort.  HK has been a large money hub, this is true, but again, it's just a hub, and money is just paper,  NO amount of paper is worthwhile. The US is not going to trade ships/planes/ dead americans for a small island with no natural resources, no technological specificity that they don't already possess.



Now,  as to HOW BIG is the current revolt..  The fact is, while it's popular for western media coverage to sensationalize, similar to the Media Trump cash-cow, the actual rate of protest is very localized and minimal.  Anyone who has a job / something to lose, (which is most people),  are NOT part of this protest.  It's primarily young people who have alot of free time.   If you're not a street-hooligan in HK, and you didn't watch TV news, day to day, you would never know there was protest going on. The majority of the city is quiet with no unrest. 


Let's recap,  Independent HK is a GOOD IDEA.

It can't happen because HK is not worth the Expense of any external-nation's military force to "Liberate".

The Actual-Protest / Civil Unrest is very small, the TV adds 10lbs, if you just lived there, you wouldn't know there was a dispute.


Think about it this way, would anyone start WW3 over HK, and could such a war be won, when both sides possess WMD which detonated in the Atmosphere would send ANY nation back to the stone age within days. Nooqs blow transformers. without transformers the Electrical Grid collapses,  It doesn't even have to kill anyone.. just blow the Grid, and the war is over for everyone involved. 

People seem to think wars still involve tanks and ships and such, that's only when the United states want to destabilize the middle-east to get dat oil.  You know, press the buttons of poor indigenous people who don't have tanks and ships, but they have AK47s that makes them terrorists. Hahahahahahha

A REAL WAR, wouldn't need any of that stuff. If it'd even be bootable in the first place.

[Sintpinty]

Democracy is a right

[Belfong]

Hey tp4, you forget the part about America funding the protesters to destabilize China

Honestly though, I wonder how much truth in that? As you mentioned, there’s nothing to gain, no oil or anything. Maybe just to cause mischief /shrug

But one have to wonder - how come the youth are so insistent. And where did they get the support from? Surely they have a big number to cause an impact, but don’t they have schools or family to go back to?

[Findecanor]

This video has a clickbaity title, but it gets to the core of the issue:

[azhdar]

TL;DR ?

[tp4tissue]

Hey tp4, you forget the part about America funding the protesters to destabilize China

Honestly though, I wonder how much truth in that? As you mentioned, there’s nothing to gain, no oil or anything. Maybe just to cause mischief /shrug

But one have to wonder - how come the youth are so insistent. And where did they get the support from? Surely they have a big number to cause an impact, but don’t they have schools or family to go back to?

The Youth are always insistent in (progressive terms), because in all education systems, we teach our youth Human's Lofty Ideals rather than the reality.

We teach youths , murder is wrong , meanwhile our CIA goes on secret kill missions, our military slaughter hundreds of thousands of "innocent civilians".  They work with multinational corporations to fundamentally enslave poor countries into producing mangos, bananas, palm oil, crude oil.. All that cheap Costco mango / banana/ chocolates / gasoline, slave labor.   

Except watermelon, watermelon is innocent.

So, youths of all nations have an idea of righteous human behavior disjointed from Reality, which is , there are killers and victims of exploit.  The Biggest most powerful killer, gets to call himself whatever he likes.  Catholic church kills a bunch of protestants,  ordained by god, etc ,etc take their land distribute to other Catholics .. God said so.

It doesn't matter which group of people you Build a new-government with,  it will always be like this, because humans are LIMITED both in foresight and compassion.   

This is where computers step in, they have unlimited upgrade capacity. Given enough processing power and memory, they will always arrive at a more objective , more encompassing solution/ distribution  than a human actor or a group of human actors..

Decentralized governance is also critical to moving human society forward, due to the same human lack of omniscience. Local people will know local people best,   they will also care more about their locale and their own neighbor,  knowing their own specific limitations,  this is far better representation than Very Large governance miles and miles away.


The current HK situation is mainly quiet.. Yes there are still localized protests, but the energy has mainly been drawn. Again, anyone with a JOB, can't be out not working all the time complaining in the street. 

The media's sensationalized take on this story is with a villain and a victim. But this is not the case.. the real Conflict is general PEOPLE vs Government.   Not so much WHO's government.   The majority of upper actors in HK has never changed.  YES there is now an element of Beijing Directorate,  but they do not decide the minute details of how local governments act.  It is the local government of hongkong composed of fundamentally the SAME set of land owners/ Triad families as before who have FAILED to address HK's internal issues.

Beijing would never say , hey, use triads to dispel protesters,  NO, Beijing would say, wtf are you doing, fix this ****. Then HK's own local triads (which have always governed HK),  decides, send the goons..

IF IT WAS China, they are within their power to say, OK, you don't want to be Chinese, NO PROBLEM,  all this land you're on, it's China.   Here's a FREE BOAT,  take your stuff, and leave,  I'll even pay for gas.. 

China is NOT a very big actor in this conflict whatsoever. the HK government failed HK..

[tp4tissue]

Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019..

//Headscratch,  Do people even read these things ??

It doesn't do anything at all... 

This is like Blizzard halving Blitz's ban..  The stance is clear + some fake lip-service to the whining populace.