Recommendation wanted - Tactile 100% Keyboard

[el_murdoque]

Since my thread about the mid 90's Acer Keyboard did not conclude in a way that clearly pointed me in a certain direction,
I think it's best to start fresh.

Currently I do own two Logitech Orion G610 boards, both equipped with MX browns (one at home, one in the office).
I like a lot about these boards. The layout agrees with me.
I like the backlighting - one solid colour and the option to have it set to 'everything on all the time, no BS'.
I also like the rolling volume control which I use a lot since I have studio monitor loudspeakers attached to my PC that can't really be used to set the volume.

So if I were to choose a modern board,
I'd like to have some kind of volume control (preferably one that will work with Linux)
and back lighting (no need for RGB, one solid colour is enough).
German layout with big enter key and apart from that, standard (either with or without windows keys) 100% form factor.

The important bit would be the switches, I guess.
I have the same complaint about the MX browns that you can read about among keyboard snobs and hear in youtube channels.
They feel scratchy and the tactility is sub par. I'd like my keyboard as silent as possible, though.
As silent as possible, while still offering a great tactility and a smooth key travel, though.
I'd like to report that it'll be used a lot for gaming, but rapidly approaching my fourth decade, there's not much time for that.
I rather type a lot and program, with the occasional FPS game thrown in.

Are there sources for good quality keyboards that are already built or does one have to gather all the components and scratch the rust from the good ol' soldering iron?
Any input would be much appreciated.
 
 
 

[treeleaf64]

I think Varmilo offers Zeal switches in their keyboards, so you could get some Zealios in there. MX tactile designs don't go very far, though, they feel unrefined compared to other switch designs (Topre, Alps)

[tp4tissue]

Dome boards like Topre silent versions are the only quiet (dull thud) boards.

The majority of other switches are louder, not ear breaking, but louder.

Topre is also not the most silent board.

THIN silicone dome sheet boards like the $5 ones on amazon/ebay Those are by far the most quiet boards for typing.   2 reasons,  1 thin sheets low actuation force ~30g, 2, very thin keycaps, very little momentum to dump (m)v^2.

As far as mechanical feel, that's an open question. dome boards (topre/novatouch) will feel almost exactly like the rubber dome sheet boards you've used everywhere else.

Cherry style mechanical feel mostly linear, not very tactile.

Model M types, well these are just loud, and some are scratchy, tactile in the sense that yea it vibrates more.

[yui]

I'd like to have some kind of volume control (preferably one that will work with Linux)

the linux part will work as long as you get a USB hid compliant keyboard and a gui that will be able to control sound (aka not jwm or CLI)

[el_murdoque]

Please let me clarify one thing:
I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns.
That is priority #1.
Out of the group of switches that make it into that group, I'd prefer the one that's most silent.
If loud is the only way to go smooth and tactile, then loud it is.
Domes that feel squishy when bottomed out are out of the question.

[treeleaf64]

Please let me clarify one thing:
I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns.
That is priority #1.
Out of the group of switches that make it into that group, I'd prefer the one that's most silent.
If loud is the only way to go smooth and tactile, then loud it is.
Domes that feel squishy when bottomed out are out of the question.

Zilents? Those are kinda expensive. If you want something in a fullsize, get a clean Apple M3501. Great sound dampening, cool switches that will be better than MX Brown.

[mlev6]

concerning  "I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns."

tactiles are my favorite type of switch.

I do not have a lot of experience with alps as some of the tactile ones (orange, neon, salmon) are now very rare, and keycaps for them are limited or it takes an extra fortune to mod them onto a modern board with say mx stem keycaps. But longtime keyboard enthusiasts swear they blow anything mx out.

In terms of cherry mx type switches...well here I did test a bunch before fitting out two boards.

I would say my favorite very tactile mx switch is the invyr holy panda, for alphas and letters something lighter than stock spring - say a 60/62g soft is ideal there I think. For mod keys or if you want a more solid somewhat heavier feel vintage black weight (I think 67-69g range) is good on them as well.

My second favorite in the mx type tactile line (less sharp tactility than pandas / more of a round bump) are ergo cherry clears still. For these again for alphas and letters (frequent keys) a weighting of anything from 65g to 69g is very nice or even a 62g "soft" and clears don't mind a heavier spring because they have big tactile bumps. For sturdier heavy fingers I recommend though modding them with vint black weight again (68-70g). At heavier spring weight smoothness but also initial resistance is increased.

After the two above 65-68g zealios V1 or 2 is the black sheep (they are excellent smooth high class switches), but tactility is somehow not as nice or satisfying as on pandas or clears because zealios have a weird more midway point for the tactile pump.

All of the above had been lubed lightly with tribosys 3204 (the tactile grease) for comparison in my case and the springs and stabilizer wires brushed with victorinox.

That is what I recommend you do before buying a full set of switches if you are serious about it: get singles of the few of the top recommendations on a switch test plate together, try different spring weights etc on them and then make a decision which full set to go for. From the three variants above the cherry ergo clear on 62-65g spring probably comes closest  to "a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns." basically modded that is what they are more tactile/ smooth versions of brown.

Note: Above of course applies to if you want to just "do it the right way" quote unquote lol and invest in the one time to do it right and just get a custom board in your budget and then put the ideal switches for what you want in. If you are looking for a solid pre-built keyboard I second that Varmilo is a good choice - maybe get a board with mx clears from them and have someone do an ergo clear stock spring swap and lubing mod for you, no experience with Topre or expensive ruber domes on my end though.

[HungerMechanic]

Please let me clarify one thing:
I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns.
That is priority #1.
Out of the group of switches that make it into that group, I'd prefer the one that's most silent.
If loud is the only way to go smooth and tactile, then loud it is.
Domes that feel squishy when bottomed out are out of the question.

This is pretty much a no-brainer, the answer is Zilents.

I'm typing on them right now, and they fit your requirements completely. Zilents are known for their smoothness, and their very high tactility. The tactility of Zilents is actually insane, and gives plenty of feedback. There's absolutely no comparison to MX Brown, here.

I am using 62 gr Aqua Zilents, which are comparable in bottom-out weight to MX Brown. They are also quiet, of course. They sound like a typical rubber dome in terms of volume-level, and are in fact quieter than the louder rubber domes.

I had mine soldered into a Leopold FC900R. The Leopold is quiet board, especially if you take it apart and put it back together with greater care than the factory did, or add some more dampening material. So it's the ideal factory board to solder Zilents into.

The Leopold doesn't have any bells and whistles, though, so you might look for something else. Varmilo custom shop does give you the option of 67 gr Zealios. They are of course smooth and very tactile, but they are not silent. Go listen to Youtube videos of Zealios V2 and then Zilents.

Another option in quiet switches is Aliaz, but it's really just a dampened Gateron Brown. Which means that although it has decent smoothness [except for the spring and dampening material], it has no more tactility than Cherry MX Brown. So you won't like that. People say that Aliaz 70 gr. feels a little more tactile, but we're not talking high tactility here.

Finally, there is OUTEMU Silent Forest. It's is supposed to be a silenced Ergo Clear, although that's not exactly what it is. It won't be as smooth out-of-the-box as Zilents, and you'll want to lube them to achieve the desired results.

Zilents are actually pretty smooth and very tactile without lubing. However, many people believe that lubing is necessary for best results, even with the Zilents.

[el_murdoque]

concerning  "I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns."

tactiles are my favorite type of switch.

I do not have a lot of experience with alps as some of the tactile ones (orange, neon, salmon) are now very rare, and keycaps for them are limited or it takes an extra fortune to mod them onto a modern board with say mx stem keycaps. But longtime keyboard enthusiasts swear they blow anything mx out.

In terms of cherry mx type switches...well here I did test a bunch before fitting out two boards.

I would say my favorite very tactile mx switch is the invyr holy panda, for alphas and letters something lighter than stock spring - say a 60/62g soft is ideal there I think. For mod keys or if you want a more solid somewhat heavier feel vintage black weight (I think 67-69g range) is good on them as well.

My second favorite in the mx type tactile line (less sharp tactility than pandas / more of a round bump) are ergo cherry clears still. For these again for alphas and letters (frequent keys) a weighting of anything from 65g to 69g is very nice or even a 62g "soft" and clears don't mind a heavier spring because they have big tactile bumps. For sturdier heavy fingers I recommend though modding them with vint black weight again (68-70g). At heavier spring weight smoothness but also initial resistance is increased.

After the two above 65-68g zealios V1 or 2 is the black sheep (they are excellent smooth high class switches), but tactility is somehow not as nice or satisfying as on pandas or clears because zealios have a weird more midway point for the tactile pump.

All of the above had been lubed lightly with tribosys 3204 (the tactile grease) for comparison in my case and the springs and stabilizer wires brushed with victorinox.

That is what I recommend you do before buying a full set of switches if you are serious about it: get singles of the few of the top recommendations on a switch test plate together, try different spring weights etc on them and then make a decision which full set to go for. From the three variants above the cherry ergo clear on 62-65g spring probably comes closest  to "a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns." basically modded that is what they are more tactile/ smooth versions of brown.

Note: Above of course applies to if you want to just "do it the right way" quote unquote lol and invest in the one time to do it right and just get a custom board in your budget and then put the ideal switches for what you want in. If you are looking for a solid pre-built keyboard I second that Varmilo is a good choice - maybe get a board with mx clears from them and have someone do an ergo clear stock spring swap and lubing mod for you, no experience with Topre or expensive ruber domes on my end though.

Please let me clarify one thing:
I need a switch feeling that's both more tactile and more smooth than that of the MX browns.
That is priority #1.
Out of the group of switches that make it into that group, I'd prefer the one that's most silent.
If loud is the only way to go smooth and tactile, then loud it is.
Domes that feel squishy when bottomed out are out of the question.

This is pretty much a no-brainer, the answer is Zilents.

I'm typing on them right now, and they fit your requirements completely. Zilents are known for their smoothness, and their very high tactility. The tactility of Zilents is actually insane, and gives plenty of feedback. There's absolutely no comparison to MX Brown, here.

I am using 62 gr Aqua Zilents, which are comparable in bottom-out weight to MX Brown. They are also quiet, of course. They sound like a typical rubber dome in terms of volume-level, and are in fact quieter than the louder rubber domes.

I had mine soldered into a Leopold FC900R. The Leopold is quiet board, especially if you take it apart and put it back together with greater care than the factory did, or add some more dampening material. So it's the ideal factory board to solder Zilents into.

The Leopold doesn't have any bells and whistles, though, so you might look for something else. Varmilo custom shop does give you the option of 67 gr Zealios. They are of course smooth and very tactile, but they are not silent. Go listen to Youtube videos of Zealios V2 and then Zilents.

Another option in quiet switches is Aliaz, but it's really just a dampened Gateron Brown. Which means that although it has decent smoothness [except for the spring and dampening material], it has no more tactility than Cherry MX Brown. So you won't like that. People say that Aliaz 70 gr. feels a little more tactile, but we're not talking high tactility here.

Finally, there is OUTEMU Silent Forest. It's is supposed to be a silenced Ergo Clear, although that's not exactly what it is. It won't be as smooth out-of-the-box as Zilents, and you'll want to lube them to achieve the desired results.

Zilents are actually pretty smooth and very tactile without lubing. However, many people believe that lubing is necessary for best results, even with the Zilents.

Thank you for your time and your recommendations.
I've not been sitting on my hands in the meantime and had to realise that MX switches seem to be a top shelf product as far as ready assembled 100% keyboards go that are still in production. Honestly, I would not have guessed that.

It seems that when you're looking at a backlit board with doubleshot PCB caps and a decent switch type,
we're not only talking about a small fortune, but also some research to find the fitting parts, plus either assembling them at home or paying someone to do it.
   

[Signature]

Media keys you can make from an AHK or similar so I'm not going to address this one.

Some questions.

How important is it to have qwertz layout? Mandatory or can you work with and ISO-qwerty layout? (Big enter key).

How important is backlighting?

If both of these are true I'd go with something MX. Varmilio has great keyboards, Ducky has great keyboards etc etc. You can also desolder your switches on your existing boards and buy some aftermarket switches however if you are not used to soldering it can be a pain due to the leds. You shouldn't care what people write here, when I got into keyboards browns were the holy grail aka the perfect tactility switch and now its considered one of the worst switches. Maybe try some other switches out at a local computer shop just to get a feel.

If you can be without qwertz and backlighting I would suggest getting a topre board. I think Topre is one of the best switches for tactility and it holds its secondary value. So if you don't like it you can sell it at a minimal loss.

[el_murdoque]

Media keys you can make from an AHK or similar so I'm not going to address this one.

Some questions.

How important is it to have qwertz layout? Mandatory or can you work with and ISO-qwerty layout? (Big enter key).

Mandatory. I once used a US board for about 6 months and that severely messed up my en muscle memory when I needed to swap between that and German boards.

How important is backlighting?

Somewhere between nice to have and really important. The board in my office does not need back lighting but at home I do game on occasion and often use the board in a darkened room where a backlit board is kind of handy. Let's say If we found something that met all my other requirements but is not backlit, I'd be able to overlook that fact.
 

If both of these are true I'd go with something MX. Varmilio has great keyboards, Ducky has great keyboards etc etc. You can also desolder your switches on your existing boards and buy some aftermarket switches however if you are not used to soldering it can be a pain due to the leds. You shouldn't care what people write here, when I got into keyboards browns were the holy grail aka the perfect tactility switch and now its considered one of the worst switches. Maybe try some other switches out at a local computer shop just to get a feel.

If you can be without qwertz and backlighting I would suggest getting a topre board. I think Topre is one of the best switches for tactility and it holds its secondary value. So if you don't like it you can sell it at a minimal loss.

I've seen that Ducky does a version of the ONE which has:
-single colour back lighting
-double shot PCB Caps
-QWERTZ layout
-MX Clear switches

...or at least that a combination of the above is possible. I've yet to run into the board that has them all. I've found the board on amazon, but only with a choice of red and silver.



And one more comment on the volume of the keys:

I feel that I might get on the nerves of my employees when I'm happily hacking away on a model M all day. I do use the G610 with brown switches, which is okay, in terms of volume. I myself am no fan of the plate ring I get on some keys when I bottom them out, but the overall loudness is acceptable. When I type fast and let my mind wander while doing so, I often increase the force and bottom out most keys, the left ring and pinky fingers get rather aggressive then. But that's a level of volume these poor people in my office have been putting up with until now and no one has quit (yet). So I don't need an especially silent keyboard, but I feel that MX Blue kind of clicky switches or buckling springs might be overdoing it. I want to operate the telephone while typing.



 

[HungerMechanic]

Thank you for your time and your recommendations.
I've not been sitting on my hands in the meantime and had to realise that MX switches seem to be a top shelf product as far as ready assembled 100% keyboards go that are still in production. Honestly, I would not have guessed that.

It seems that when you're looking at a backlit board with doubleshot PCB caps and a decent switch type,
we're not only talking about a small fortune, but also some research to find the fitting parts, plus either assembling them at home or paying someone to do it.
 

I would say that you are conflating two different things here.

Stock Cherry MX switches are designed for reliability, affordability, and ease of production. 'Tactile sensation' appears to have been a more distant consideration.

You can buy a very nice Cherry MX keyboard off-the-shelf, for an affordable price, if you are satisfied with the feel of stock Cherry switches. For example, you can buy a very solid Leopold keyboard with PBT double-shot keycaps, detachable cable, sound-dampening materials, and other features, and have it shipped to your door in the United States for $124.

For $25 more, you can get a Varmilo VA108 with LED backlighting and four extra shortcut keys. So, what I'm saying is that you can get some pretty solid MX keyboards for $125-145 shipped. Cherry MX can be mass-produced and give you good value.

However, if you are not satisfied with the feel of stock Cherry switches, such as MX Brown or MX Clear, then we are in a different territory. Now you are talking about custom MX keyboard. And yes, this becomes a "top shelf" item where the sky is the limit in terms of cost and quality.

If you want something better than MX Brown / Clear, you are going to have to pay. Now, it could be a low price, like getting a GMMK and putting custom switches in it. That costs about as much as a Leopold / Varmilo.

But if you want something with the build quality of a Leopold / Varmilo AND custom switches, you are going to pay money. The fastest / most cost-effective way to do this is ordering something from the Varmilo custom store. You will get a Varmilo with your choice of lighting, keycaps, and switches, although they only offer a few custom switches, such as Zealio 67.

Or you can go the full custom route. The introductory models, using custom switches, cost a little less than or the same as a Leopold.

So if you want a quality MX switch in a quality MX keyboard, you are going to have to PAY.

[quasistellar]

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

[treeleaf64]

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

I second this. They are not as expensive as Zilents, plus, you can get them in the Matias prebuilts.

[Maledicted]

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

I second this. They are not as expensive as Zilents, plus, you can get them in the Matias prebuilts.

I was thinking maybe he could find an old dampened Alps board in the layout he wants for a steal too, maybe. I think if I owned any Matias keyboards I would probably keep them covered when not in use. I've already begun wrapping my DC-2014s in towels, even though the one I just got already feels like garbage.

[treeleaf64]

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

I second this. They are not as expensive as Zilents, plus, you can get them in the Matias prebuilts.

I was thinking maybe he could find an old dampened Alps board in the layout he wants for a steal too, maybe. I think if I owned any Matias keyboards I would probably keep them covered when not in use. I've already begun wrapping my DC-2014s in towels, even though the one I just got already feels like garbage.

That could be an option as well. The problem with the AEK II is it doesn't have backlighting, and he will not have warranty.

[Maledicted]

That could be an option as well. The problem with the AEK II is it doesn't have backlighting, and he will not have warranty.

True, true.

[el_murdoque]

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

I second this. They are not as expensive as Zilents, plus, you can get them in the Matias prebuilts.

Matias Quiet Click might fit the bill as well.

I second this. They are not as expensive as Zilents, plus, you can get them in the Matias prebuilts.

I found a used Matias Quiet Pro FK302 keyboard that is not too ugly IMHO. It comes with German layout and PC keycaps.
Would that fit the bill? I guess I could haggle the price down to an acceptable level.