Author Topic: Gun Porn  (Read 1617 times)

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Offline Maledicted

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Gun Porn
« on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 17:53:16 »
I figure this is long overdue. Post some of your favorite firearms. Maybe we could start a separate conversation thread or two as well that's less generalized.

I'll start with one of my favorite rifles, a sporterized U.S. M1917 rifle. It appears that the original barrel has not been cut down from the standard 26 inches.



The Monte Carlo stock, which doesn't seem to be made of particularly fancy wood, is beautifully hand checkered.

   

   

As you can already see, at one point the the trigger guard and magazine floor plate were meticulously hand engraved, all metal parts were polished, and then blued in alternating traditional blue and plum blue colors. My guess is that, at least with the engraving, the work was probably done soon after the occupation of Japan after WWII, as a possible maker's or owner's name was engraved on the inside of most of the engraved parts in Japanese Katakana.

   

   

The scope is just an old Bushmaster 4x that I thought would fit the rifle well. Surprisingly, this rifle cost me less than $300 ... because nobody cares about sporterized milsurps. I don't even want to know what a new production, or even used/vintage commercial rifle with these features would cost me.

Next is a beautiful Lisa Tomlin 1 of 400 Colt Engravers Series 1911. These, apparently, are not exactly engraved. The design is created by the engraver, and they are etched and polished, etc. I still think that this is beautiful, and I plan on putting it in a display case at some point.

   



Finally, here's a few quick shots of my safe as it is at this moment. I guess my camera doesn't like red light, sorry about some of the blurry shots in general. This was a pretty reasonably-priced safe from Menards, which I modified to get power inside to add a goldenrod dehumidifier and wired some red LED light strips up to a motion sensor. I particularly like the color red, but it also isn't so jarring to night vision, etc. I also modified the rack system to facilitate storing rifles with wood stocks with the muzzle down ... which is how all rifles with wood stocks should be stored to prevent oil from seeping into their stocks and ruining them over time.

   

I imagine you may spot some other goodies in here. Leave a comment and/or post some pictures of your own.
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 July 2020, 19:10:02 by Maledicted »

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 17:59:59 »
Dragunov SVD in my opinion is the most beautiful gun ever. Always wanted one, maybe someday.


Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 18:05:14 »
Dragunov SVD in my opinion is the most beautiful gun ever. Always wanted one, maybe someday.

Dragunovs are cool. Look up the Romanian PSL if you want something with the same aesthetics and role, without the ridiculous price tag. I'm pretty sure Classic had them for under $2,000 recently. They're not mechanically the same though. I think the PSL is basically a scaled-up AK chambered in 7.62x54r.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 18:12:19 »
Dragunov SVD in my opinion is the most beautiful gun ever. Always wanted one, maybe someday.

Dragunovs are cool. Look up the Romanian PSL if you want something with the same aesthetics and role, without the ridiculous price tag. I'm pretty sure Classic had them for under $2,000 recently. They're not mechanically the same though. I think the PSL is basically a scaled-up AK chambered in 7.62x54r.

I've seen the thicc AK conversions, no thanks. Even a Tiger knockoff is like $5-10k I can't imagine what an actual military SVD goes for in gun circles. Finding a private seller, offering them a price of a new car, then still possibly getting turned down. :))

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 18:19:11 »
Dragunov SVD in my opinion is the most beautiful gun ever. Always wanted one, maybe someday.

Dragunovs are cool. Look up the Romanian PSL if you want something with the same aesthetics and role, without the ridiculous price tag. I'm pretty sure Classic had them for under $2,000 recently. They're not mechanically the same though. I think the PSL is basically a scaled-up AK chambered in 7.62x54r.

I've seen the thicc AK conversions, no thanks. Even a Tiger knockoff is like $5-10k I can't imagine what an actual military SVD goes for in gun circles. Finding a private seller, offering them a price of a new car, then still possibly getting turned down. :))

The irony is that they're not even meant to be particularly exceptional rifles. They're meant to be reliable, and able to hit a man-sized target out to maybe 500 or 600 yards. You could just build a random $600-800 AR-10 and come out of it with a lighter, more modular rifle with less recoil and better precision at range.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 18:59:12 »
Those are all epic pieces. I've never owned a gun or ever particularly wanted to but I do enjoy going to the gun range when I get the chance.

This one time in Dallas, I saw a pair of engraved double barrel shotguns priced at 250 a piece. Ahem... that's... $250,000 a piece.   

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 19:07:12 »
Those are all epic pieces. I've never owned a gun or ever particularly wanted to but I do enjoy going to the gun range when I get the chance.

This one time in Dallas, I saw a pair of engraved double barrel shotguns priced at 250 a piece. Ahem... that's... $250,000 a piece.

Thank you very much. They're my fanciest guns, at present. I have plenty of other weird/random things though.

Range trips really are a lot of fun. I think more people need to experience them if they haven't, if only to get a chance to learn some important gun safety.

What the heck were those shotguns? Were they custom made and engraved in Liege, Belgium or something? I imagine they were over/unders, probably had some precious metal leaf, like gold, worked into the engraving too?

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 20:33:42 »
Those are all epic pieces. I've never owned a gun or ever particularly wanted to but I do enjoy going to the gun range when I get the chance.

This one time in Dallas, I saw a pair of engraved double barrel shotguns priced at 250 a piece. Ahem... that's... $250,000 a piece.

Thank you very much. They're my fanciest guns, at present. I have plenty of other weird/random things though.

Range trips really are a lot of fun. I think more people need to experience them if they haven't, if only to get a chance to learn some important gun safety.

What the heck were those shotguns? Were they custom made and engraved in Liege, Belgium or something? I imagine they were over/unders, probably had some precious metal leaf, like gold, worked into the engraving too?

They were in Highland Park. That probably says it all.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:02:27 »
What's the recommended QuickFireRapid Keyboard of Shotgunz,  pandemic threat protection ?

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:19:56 »
What's the recommended QuickFireRapid Keyboard of Shotgunz,  pandemic threat protection ?

Mossberg 500

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:24:15 »
I prefer fictional firearms. Here's my personal replica of one of the most iconic movie guns of all time: Deckard's gun from the Blade Runner movies (1982 and 2017)
(Attachment Link)
I tried to make the rust patterns resemble those on the actual prop when displayed at WorldCon in 2006 (?).
I'm not entirely happy about the finish on the upper receiver and lever though.

Nude photo below:
More
(Attachment Link)
Yes, it is made of plastic, and started out as a very thin shell - a limited-edition Japanese watergun that was very detailed. I then built as much as possible of the real gun parts inside, but (as a challenge) using the same material: ABS plastic.
Hopefully, I can hold of a Tomenosuke replica of metal some day. I don't think the domestic gun laws would permit me to have one made from original gun parts. A lot of time was spent on studying those real ones though: Steyr bolt-action rifle and Bulldog '44 revolver.

Mine has unique custom "working" internals with safety bolt-action lever, safety and clicking trigger.
I thought the Gateron Blue clicked louder than a Kailh Box Navy, so I had used one of those.

My pride used to otherwise be my own replica of Han Solo's gun from Star Wars, with the base gun replica extremely modified to resemble the specific war-time pattern Mauser C96 that had been used back in the '70s. It has custom add-on parts of steel, and some of brass and aluminium. Some parts have been professionally salt-blued, others rust-blued, cold-blued or acid-treated by me. Again, dings and scratches have been replicated.
But since Star Wars went to crap and I hate it so much now, the gun is disassembled and stored away and I don't have a picture of the complete assembly.

That's really cool. Using a freaking keyboard switch is a great touch. I just pretend Disney Wars didn't happen. Real Star Wars is still great.

I'm on the hunt, off and on, for a Jericho 941 R of the exact right configuration to be Spike's from Cowboy Bebop. It looks like somebody put some relatively decent grips that match his into production ... instead of having to try to hunt down some from some special edition airsoft gun.

Those are all epic pieces. I've never owned a gun or ever particularly wanted to but I do enjoy going to the gun range when I get the chance.

This one time in Dallas, I saw a pair of engraved double barrel shotguns priced at 250 a piece. Ahem... that's... $250,000 a piece.

Thank you very much. They're my fanciest guns, at present. I have plenty of other weird/random things though.

Range trips really are a lot of fun. I think more people need to experience them if they haven't, if only to get a chance to learn some important gun safety.

What the heck were those shotguns? Were they custom made and engraved in Liege, Belgium or something? I imagine they were over/unders, probably had some precious metal leaf, like gold, worked into the engraving too?

They were in Highland Park. That probably says it all.

I wouldn't know. I have never been as far south as Texas myself. I have family down in Tennessee though. Some pretty cool locations there, even just driving through and seeing some of the Civil War museums.

What's the recommended QuickFireRapid Keyboard of Shotgunz,  pandemic threat protection ?

You're asking about a shotgun, in particular? The KSG is a contender. I wouldn't call it "QuickFireRapid" though. It is pump action, as most shotguns are. It is a bullpup, so it is handy in tight spaces, and it has two separate internal magazines you can switch between in a pinch to change ammo types.



A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 (though some of the more recent ones are said to have some quality control issues) should do fine too. You would probably want to avoid any of those shorty birdshead grip shotguns as aiming and firing them isn't exactly ideal.



Any shotgun that doesn't have a really short barrel, when loaded with some bird shot should pattern well enough for most home intruder ranges without being as lethal as buckshot and without really having much penetration power should some of the shot hit drywall, miss, etc.

If you're talking about a breakdown of society, an AR-15. Those fire very small high velocity rounds though, so you would need to worry more about over-penetration and effective range should you miss.

247526-0

Not the configuration that I would prefer, but it will work for now.

What's the recommended QuickFireRapid Keyboard of Shotgunz,  pandemic threat protection ?

Mossberg 500

Yes, solid choice. He beat me to it while I was typing this up.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:32:08 »
What's a good price for these. So to confirm these are the end of the wurld Top Pix ?

KSG
Mossberg 500
Remington 870

are these considered heavy or light ? 

Is heavy or light better for home defense, as in If I have to pick it up haphazardly and save myself.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 18 July 2020, 21:38:09 »
What's a good price for these. So to confirm these are the end of the wurld Top Pix ?

KSG
Mossberg 500
Remington 870


There's a wonderful website called gun.deals. It is your best friend:

KSG

Mossberg 500 (there are a lot of variants of the Mossberg 500, under slightly different model designations, like the 590, so this search may be a little borked)

Remington 870

Shop around though too. In order to purchase a firearm from the internet, you'll need to find and contact a local FFL dealer. It ships to him or her, and you pay for and do the background check, etc, when you pick it up.

Local laws apply as well, of course. Not sure where you live and what arbitrary features/cosmetic appearances may be banned.

Edit: I missed the rest of your comment. It looks like the Remington would weigh more than the other two, although it isn't exactly extremely heavy either for a long arm. Weight is a double-edged sword. The lighter it is, the more recoil you'll feel in your shoulder, but being lighter also makes it easier to maneuver around with and aim.

For home defense, you want as short of a barrel as you can get away with for maneuvering around corners (shorter barrels also mean wider dispersion though as well, except with a bullpup because a bullpup has a longer barrel than it seems as the action is moved basically all the way back to your shoulder, inside of the stock), and might want a light on the end because you don't want to be blasting away without knowing your target, and what lies beyond it.

I don't think there's any consensus on what the very best home defense shotgun in the world is.

For the end of the world, I would want an AR, personally. That's a heated debate though. Some people prefer AKs, etc. The AK has merits in that you can basically abuse it and use it in any environment without cleaning for extended periods of time. You don't want anything getting into the action though, or it may become a bolt action. The AR is less likely to get anything at all in the action, is lighter recoiling, weighs less, is more accurate, and has way more customization options, but probably requires a little more regular maintenance.
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 July 2020, 22:01:42 by Maledicted »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 08:01:54 »

What's a good price for these.


Maverick 88 is the economy variant of Mossberg 500 and is around $250 brand new. That is the most reliable choice at a lower price point.
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline Olumin

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 14:15:09 »

If you're talking about a breakdown of society, an AR-15. Those fire very small high velocity rounds though, so you would need to worry more about over-penetration and effective range should you miss.

(Attachment Link)

Not the configuration that I would prefer, but it will work for now.


I never got this argument. So many people in the US talking about these sporterized modern Army rifles as if they were a good choice for a "survival situation".

Just no. 5.56 NATO is quite simply inadequate for many hunting applications. Most if not all Medium and of cause large game cannot be reliably taken down using such a intermediate cartridge. Same goes for taking down humans...

What you want is a Full powered rifle cartridge, at the very least a .308, ideally something bigger like 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

A semi-auto rifle is not of much use in a survival situation, and tempts you to waste your ammo. They are more complex and inherently less reliable. Less easy to clean, maintain, repair etc.

You want a time-proven, rugged, simple Bolt-action chambered in a widely available full-powered military or hunting cartridge. Something like your enfield or a nice pre 64 Winchester 70 in 30-06 would be ideal. An optic would be nice too.



But certainly no 5.56 semi-auto.
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 July 2020, 14:20:29 by Olumin »

Offline hvontres

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 21:40:27 »
Reading this thread makes me wonder if we should start mud testing keyboards....
Except I think a cheap ass rubberdome will survive better than our beloved mechanical wonders.

For reference:


Also, for you gun owners out there, do you prefer tactile or clicky triggers? (I'm guessing a linear trigger would be REALLY bad idea)
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Offline hvontres

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 21:47:48 »


A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 (though some of the more recent ones are said to have some quality control issues) should do fine too. You would probably want to avoid any of those shorty birdshead grip shotguns as aiming and firing them isn't exactly ideal.

Show Image


This shows pretty well why a pistol grip only is a bad idea:
Henry von Tresckow

       
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 22:35:25 »

What's a good price for these.


Maverick 88 is the economy variant of Mossberg 500 and is around $250 brand new. That is the most reliable choice at a lower price point.

Yes, that's a good choice too. I both didn't think of it, but also know that some people take issue with some of the ... cost cutting measures that go into the design. They may not be functional problems at all, but I know I would get a real 500, or modify a Maverick to match myself. What do I know though, my only shotgun is so old that the government doesn't even consider it a firearm. lol


If you're talking about a breakdown of society, an AR-15. Those fire very small high velocity rounds though, so you would need to worry more about over-penetration and effective range should you miss.

(Attachment Link)

Not the configuration that I would prefer, but it will work for now.


I never got this argument. So many people in the US talking about these sporterized modern Army rifles as if they were a good choice for a "survival situation".

Just no. 5.56 NATO is quite simply inadequate for many hunting applications. Most if not all Medium and of cause large game cannot be reliably taken down using such a intermediate cartridge. Same goes for taking down humans...

What you want is a Full powered rifle cartridge, at the very least a .308, ideally something bigger like 30-06 or 300 Win Mag.

A semi-auto rifle is not of much use in a survival situation, and tempts you to waste your ammo. They are more complex and inherently less reliable. Less easy to clean, maintain, repair etc.

You want a time-proven, rugged, simple Bolt-action chambered in a widely available full-powered military or hunting cartridge. Something like your enfield or a nice pre 64 Winchester 70 in 30-06 would be ideal. An optic would be nice too.

Show Image


But certainly no 5.56 semi-auto.


You never got the argument, because you're not addressing the argument.

I don't think anybody advocates for 5.56 for hunting, besides for coyote, etc. That has nothing to do with a breakdown of society. 5.56 is plenty for human targets, when you're not talking about level 4 body armor, and affords you the sweet spot for follow-up shots and/or maintaining situational awareness without a major decrease in effective range, etc. There's a reason that most of the modern world moved away from 8mm, 7.62 (Which NATO even wanted to avoid back in the 50s if it weren't for the U.S.' insistence), etc. It meant less ammo carried, smaller magazine capacity, and more recoil, with no significant practical benefits besides effective range and barrier penetration. M1 Carbines were a common sight in the pacific theater of WWII. These were chambered in the .30 carbine cartridge, which is modernly smeared as an anemic cartridge, and even against some of the fiercest combatants we've ever faced, users had nothing but praise for these rifles. I have read that people would literally ditch M1 Garands (as great of a rifle as this was) in .30-60 if they could get their hands on an M1 Carbine because of how light and handy they were.

The AR-10 has already been mentioned, this is an AR chambered in 7.62 NATO/.308. If I seriously only wanted one rifle for both a breakdown of society and hunting, and could have nothing else, I suppose I would go with that. I don't need to make that choice. I have 3 sporterized M1917 rifles chambered in .30-06, a Yugoslavian M48a in 8mm Mauser, and a Finnish M39 in 7.62x54r. I think I'm set on hunting rifles.

There are those that would say that anything with more energy than .308 is even overkill for the average deer and can needlessly destroy good meat. Many in the U.S. find the sweet spot to be around .30-30. What are you hunting with .300 Win Mag? Elk? We don't have many things that big in the continental U.S.

Semi autos being inherently less reliable would have been true 70 or 80 years ago. Today, that depends on the scenario. There are tests out there, like from InrangeTV, that show that the AR-15 platform can literally be covered in mud and continue to function perfectly regardless so long as the bolt isn't locked back and you dump it inside of the action. On a bolt-action rifle, most of the action is exposed. If you're in very adverse conditions, that can lock a bolt gun down entirely if debris gets into the action. This goes for other situations as well, like ice. Greenland apparently still favors the aforementioned M1917 in extremely cold climates where you may have ice build-up on the action, as it was the best rifle they could find ... since we gave them to them in the 1940s, for continued operation in such an environment. They still use them partly for that reason. The AK, for an example of a semi auto, was also designed with this strength in mind (This is a known weakness of the AR platform, due to tight tolerances).

Modern AR-15s and AKs (and maybe other alternatives) have also been tested to function perfectly for 10s of thousands of rounds straight, without any cleaning whatsoever. Modern lubricious finishes, like Nitride, etc, also help with this.

All that being said, a semi auto, even the best design, is more likely than a bolt gun to suffer a malfunction due to poorly-manufactured ammunition. For whatever that's worth, and however likely it may be if you buy something reputable from a factory.

Another consideration is that any cheap off-the-rack AR-10 is usually going to have a free-float handguard, meaning you've got an entirely free-floated barrel (a premium option in most bolt guns), and there's no traditional stock that the receiver may need to be bedded into to additionally improve accuracy ... as the AR platform was designed, and is implemented, based on extremely tight tolerances allowed by modern machining. You can assemble a sub MOA rifle yourself with a fraction of the cash, time, or knowledge that would be required to get a similarly precise bolt rifle. It will have lower recoil in any given caliber to boot, as a benefit of its gas system.

I think that if anybody is taking multiple shots at game, they probably haven't prepared well enough to begin with, or are taking inherently unethical shots, so I consider that a moot point.

I often wonder, if I ever finally get my hunting license, if I should just use an iron-sighted bolt gun or lever gun. The giant endless woods that is Wisconsin is too dense and hilly for even a 4x scope to be of much use in most situations.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if we should start mud testing keyboards....
Except I think a cheap ass rubberdome will survive better than our beloved mechanical wonders.

Also, for you gun owners out there, do you prefer tactile or clicky triggers? (I'm guessing a linear trigger would be REALLY bad idea)

Another InrangeTV fan. I just watched a few of their videos today.

Yeah, rubberdomes would probably do better ... other than the membrane getting wet, in which case, goodluck. Luckily, I can't think of any real scenario in which we would need to worry about muddy keyboards. lol

I can't think of any triggers that I would consider tactile as oppose to clicky, can you? The trigger moves a sear, the sear releases a hammer or striker, the striker or hammer slam into a primer. I can't say I have ever heard of a gun that doesn't make any noise when you do that. Even the Welrod, which was designed for silent operation, makes nose when the trigger is pulled, doesn't it?



A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 (though some of the more recent ones are said to have some quality control issues) should do fine too. You would probably want to avoid any of those shorty birdshead grip shotguns as aiming and firing them isn't exactly ideal.

Show Image


This shows pretty well why a pistol grip only is a bad idea:

This is the exact video I had in mind when I said that.  ;D
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 July 2020, 22:41:28 by Maledicted »

Offline hvontres

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 19 July 2020, 23:42:26 »
Now the real question is who are the Keyboard equivalents of Ian and Othias... I think Chyros gets my vote for "Keyboard Jesus".
Henry von Tresckow

       
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 20 July 2020, 01:08:54 »
Now the real question is who are the Keyboard equivalents of Ian and Othias... I think Chyros gets my vote for "Keyboard Jesus".

Yes, I would say that's a match. I don't really watch any other keyboard Youtubers though since I care mostly about old stuff and clickies, so I wouldn't be able to say for Othias. I like to refer to him as Gun Moses, myself. Not sure if that's picked up or not. I had been neglecting the firearms hobby for months for keyboards.

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 20 July 2020, 01:18:37 »
Now the real question is who are the Keyboard equivalents of Ian and Othias... I think Chyros gets my vote for "Keyboard Jesus".
Chyros would have to grow some hair first, like Ian's.
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
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Offline Olumin

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 20 July 2020, 07:24:37 »

You never got the argument, because you're not addressing the argument.

I don't think anybody advocates for 5.56 for hunting, besides for coyote, etc. That has nothing to do with a breakdown of society. 5.56 is plenty for human targets, when you're not talking about level 4 body armor, and affords you the sweet spot for follow-up shots and/or maintaining situational awareness without a major decrease in effective range, etc. There's a reason that most of the modern world moved away from 8mm, 7.62 (Which NATO even wanted to avoid back in the 50s if it weren't for the U.S.' insistence), etc. It meant less ammo carried, smaller magazine capacity, and more recoil, with no significant practical benefits besides effective range and barrier penetration. M1 Carbines were a common sight in the pacific theater of WWII. These were chambered in the .30 carbine cartridge, which is modernly smeared as an anemic cartridge, and even against some of the fiercest combatants we've ever faced, users had nothing but praise for these rifles. I have read that people would literally ditch M1 Garands (as great of a rifle as this was) in .30-60 if they could get their hands on an M1 Carbine because of how light and handy they were.

The AR-10 has already been mentioned, this is an AR chambered in 7.62 NATO/.308. If I seriously only wanted one rifle for both a breakdown of society and hunting, and could have nothing else, I suppose I would go with that. I don't need to make that choice. I have 3 sporterized M1917 rifles chambered in .30-06, a Yugoslavian M48a in 8mm Mauser, and a Finnish M39 in 7.62x54r. I think I'm set on hunting rifles.

There are those that would say that anything with more energy than .308 is even overkill for the average deer and can needlessly destroy good meat. Many in the U.S. find the sweet spot to be around .30-30. What are you hunting with .300 Win Mag? Elk? We don't have many things that big in the continental U.S.

Semi autos being inherently less reliable would have been true 70 or 80 years ago. Today, that depends on the scenario. There are tests out there, like from InrangeTV, that show that the AR-15 platform can literally be covered in mud and continue to function perfectly regardless so long as the bolt isn't locked back and you dump it inside of the action. On a bolt-action rifle, most of the action is exposed. If you're in very adverse conditions, that can lock a bolt gun down entirely if debris gets into the action. This goes for other situations as well, like ice. Greenland apparently still favors the aforementioned M1917 in extremely cold climates where you may have ice build-up on the action, as it was the best rifle they could find ... since we gave them to them in the 1940s, for continued operation in such an environment. They still use them partly for that reason. The AK, for an example of a semi auto, was also designed with this strength in mind (This is a known weakness of the AR platform, due to tight tolerances).

Modern AR-15s and AKs (and maybe other alternatives) have also been tested to function perfectly for 10s of thousands of rounds straight, without any cleaning whatsoever. Modern lubricious finishes, like Nitride, etc, also help with this.

All that being said, a semi auto, even the best design, is more likely than a bolt gun to suffer a malfunction due to poorly-manufactured ammunition. For whatever that's worth, and however likely it may be if you buy something reputable from a factory.

Another consideration is that any cheap off-the-rack AR-10 is usually going to have a free-float handguard, meaning you've got an entirely free-floated barrel (a premium option in most bolt guns), and there's no traditional stock that the receiver may need to be bedded into to additionally improve accuracy ... as the AR platform was designed, and is implemented, based on extremely tight tolerances allowed by modern machining. You can assemble a sub MOA rifle yourself with a fraction of the cash, time, or knowledge that would be required to get a similarly precise bolt rifle. It will have lower recoil in any given caliber to boot, as a benefit of its gas system.

I think that if anybody is taking multiple shots at game, they probably haven't prepared well enough to begin with, or are taking inherently unethical shots, so I consider that a moot point.

I often wonder, if I ever finally get my hunting license, if I should just use an iron-sighted bolt gun or lever gun. The giant endless woods that is Wisconsin is too dense and hilly for even a 4x scope to be of much use in most situations.


You are mostly referring to the development of arms in a military context here, I am not. A "survival rifle" does not equal a military battle or assault rifle. 5.56 being "good enough" is not good enough. You always want something that is more than adequate. Full powered rounds like .308 and up are proven to have much greater lethality on both animals AND humans. Read reports from field medics.

Little recoil for fast follow-up shots and great mag. capacity are important for an army gun, not such much for a hunting or "survival" rifle. Id rather have a more powerful round I know can do any job and trade that for lower capacity (5 rounds are plenty), then an intermediate round which may be adequate for most jobs.

Most rifles, bolt action or not, outperform the shooter in terms of accuracy by a large margin. Accuracy is never going to be a problem no matter what gun, and depends much more on ammunition, cartridge and range/windage/weather then anything else.

Semi autos simply function less reliably with low quality or old ammo, both of which one is likely to be shooting after a wile in a “breakdown or society” scenario, rather than quality factory-new ammo that may run well in your AR.

A rifle one would want in a survival situation requires long term reliability, simplicity of construction and the ability to function in a wide variety of environments, temperatures and with a wide variety of Ammunition, regardless of manufacturer or condition/age. It is simply a fact that a bolt action performs better in these regards then any semi or fully automatic rifle ever will. End of Argument.


Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 20 July 2020, 08:27:15 »

some people take issue with some of the ... cost cutting measures that go into the design


Kind of like the way people have issues with the cost-cutting measures that morphed the Model F into the Model M?
Were our leaders just stupid? Well, maybe. But there’s a deeper explanation of the profoundly self-destructive behavior of Trump and his allies: They were all members of America’s cult of selfishness. You see, the modern US right is committed to the proposition that greed is good, that we’re all better off when individuals engage in the untrammeled pursuit of self-interest. In their vision, unrestricted profit maximization by businesses and unregulated consumer choice is the recipe for a good society.
Support for this proposition is, if anything, more emotional than intellectual. I’ve long been struck by the intensity of right-wing anger against relatively trivial regulations, like bans on phosphates in detergent and efficiency standards for light bulbs. It’s the principle of the thing: Many on the right are enraged at any suggestion that their actions should take other people’s welfare into account. This rage is sometimes portrayed as love of freedom. But people who insist on the right to pollute are notably unbothered by, say, federal agents tear-gassing peaceful protesters. What they call “freedom” is actually absence of responsibility.
Rational policy in a pandemic, however, is all about taking responsibility. The main reason you shouldn’t go to a bar and should wear a mask isn’t self-protection, although that’s part of it; the point is that congregating in noisy, crowded spaces or exhaling droplets into shared air puts others at risk. And that’s the kind of thing America’s right just hates, hates to hear. Anger at any suggestion of social responsibility also helps explain the looming fiscal catastrophe.  – Paul Krugman 2020-07-28 NYT

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 20 July 2020, 10:32:59 »
Now the real question is who are the Keyboard equivalents of Ian and Othias... I think Chyros gets my vote for "Keyboard Jesus".
Chyros would have to grow some hair first, like Ian's.

Ha, good point. I can't picture him rocking Ian's do, but maybe.

You are mostly referring to the development of arms in a military context here, I am not. A "survival rifle" does not equal a military battle or assault rifle. 5.56 being "good enough" is not good enough. You always want something that is more than adequate. Full powered rounds like .308 and up are proven to have much greater lethality on both animals AND humans. Read reports from field medics.

Yes, I am, although whether or not the ammunition was developed for a military has nothing at all to do with its effectiveness in other situations. If anything, the way you're framing it skews it the other way, because the military has to commonly deal with armor, so they should be giving everybody something chambered in .308 with armor penetrating rounds, right? Nope. 5.56 eliminates the threat. Lethality is irrelevant ... and somewhat morbid, taking something out of the fight is all that matters. Did I not make "a breakdown of society" clear? If you live out in the middle of nowhere, where the population density is minuscule and/or most people are also themselves individualists who just want to protect themselves and theirs, then some overpowered cartridge in a heavy-recoiling bolt gun is mostly fine, although some magnified optic is also going to put you at a major disadvantage at close range (you know ... a self defense range) in acquiring a target. That's a limited scenario, and not even one that's guaranteed in most places. If there's a mob of 100 angry looters marching down your street, you may as well be using that bolt gun as a club.

Little recoil for fast follow-up shots and great mag. capacity are important for an army gun, not such much for a hunting or "survival" rifle. Id rather have a more powerful round I know can do any job and trade that for lower capacity (5 rounds are plenty), then an intermediate round which may be adequate for most jobs.

First, see above. Most people can't just hunt in their backyards anyway, and even if they could, ye olde hunting rifle is not the be-all-end-all solution to all of their problems. A breakdown of society IS a military application, or worse. Most "survival" rifles are chambered in .22, and a good chunk of those are even take-down models and/or semi automatic, since the only goal with those is to be able to hit small game that you can cook for yourself, so where are you going with this whole "survival" scenario?

Most rifles, bolt action or not, outperform the shooter in terms of accuracy by a large margin. Accuracy is never going to be a problem no matter what gun, and depends much more on ammunition, cartridge and range/windage/weather then anything else.

Whether or not accuracy matters depends on the range, your optic, and how it may be zeroed, although range is the biggest factor. I would argue that cartridge is almost irrelevant unless we're talking horrible cartridges against the best, like 7.62x39 ... which is pretty terrible. It is true that it would be basically irrelevant in most practical applications, but the point stands that an AR-10 can do everything and more than a similarly-priced modern bolt gun. You're talking to somebody who absolutely loves bolt guns. I can still see the objective benefits to alternatives.

Semi autos simply function less reliably with low quality or old ammo, both of which one is likely to be shooting after a wile in a “breakdown or society” scenario, rather than quality factory-new ammo that may run well in your AR.

When manufactured properly, and stored well, ammo will keep like new for decades. I pack all of mine with desiccant, as anyone should if even just to store it until range time. Even then, unless the ammo was of poor quality to begin with, resulting malfunctions should be low. I have put hundreds of rounds of cheap remanufactured 5.56 through one of my ARs without a single issue yet.


A rifle one would want in a survival situation requires long term reliability, simplicity of construction and the ability to function in a wide variety of environments, temperatures and with a wide variety of Ammunition, regardless of manufacturer or condition/age. It is simply a fact that a bolt action performs better in these regards then any semi or fully automatic rifle ever will. End of Argument. [/size]

Did I not make it clear enough in my previous post that reliability in different environments and temperatures has more to do with an individual design than it does the action type? You can't just take any bolt gun to the arctic circle and expect it to always work perfectly ... you can with an AK. That's one example of many. Your only point is ammunition, and most modern ammunition, in a semi auto with modern engineering, manufacturing, and finishes, makes this all but entirely moot. The one thing I would even say would be a major benefit to the bolt gun in that regard is those of the old Mauser type with the wonderful controlled-feed extractor type. Most bolt guns made now are of very cheap design and manufacture.


some people take issue with some of the ... cost cutting measures that go into the design


Kind of like the way people have issues with the cost-cutting measures that morphed the Model F into the Model M?


Well, yes, and I dislike the Model M partly for those reasons. You could call that picky, it would be fair. When you're talking about a defensive arm though, I would say that it is not unreasonable to be sure that cost cutting measures will in no way have the potential to inhibit function.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 21 July 2020, 15:39:36 »
Reading this thread makes me wonder if we should start mud testing keyboards....
Except I think a cheap ass rubberdome will survive better than our beloved mechanical wonders.

For reference:


Also, for you gun owners out there, do you prefer tactile or clicky triggers? (I'm guessing a linear trigger would be REALLY bad idea)

I would relate a .38 special as the closest firearm that would be nearly linear, or at least the version my mom had that I got to use at the range.  Only firearm I have currently is a Taurus Millenium Pro PT145 - I've had it for 8 years and has been an amazing pistol, especially for its compact size (also mine hasn't suffered from the recall issue they supposedly have). A nice .45 10 +1 round capacity that can be concealed with ease in a pocket or proper concealed holster.  I bought it as my 30th birthday gift to myself.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Gun Porn
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 15:10:38 »
I would relate a .38 special as the closest firearm that would be nearly linear, or at least the version my mom had that I got to use at the range.  Only firearm I have currently is a Taurus Millenium Pro PT145 - I've had it for 8 years and has been an amazing pistol, especially for its compact size (also mine hasn't suffered from the recall issue they supposedly have). A nice .45 10 +1 round capacity that can be concealed with ease in a pocket or proper concealed holster.  I bought it as my 30th birthday gift to myself.

By .38 special, do you mean something like a Smith & Wesson? If so, you make a good point. Revolver triggers are not all created equal, but that's something I hadn't really thought about. A good old Smith is going to have what can only be described as a perfectly smooth pull in either single or double action. There's still a click when the hammer falls, and  the lockwork usually makes some noise, but there's not really a tactile event in some of those old wheelguns. My Taurus Model 85 is not so well-endowed, but in single action it is relatively the same ... once I did a lot of dry fire with it.

I have drooled over Taurus' millennium series for years. I imagine that PT145 is probably one of the few handguns like it ever produced, being an extremely small double stack .45. I wouldn't mind owning one myself if I ever come across one. I have a descendant in the G2C. It is currently my go-to carry gun. Ironic, considering I have a beautiful Sig P238 and P938, which I used to carry, just sitting in the safe.