Best Topre Keyboard

[iArson]

I've been doing a bit of research on the HHKB boards as well as others but wanted to know what you all thought about Topre boards. I've never used one, but hope to get one before the holidays. 

[SmallFry]

HHKB's take a bit of getting used to, layout wise, I've been told. They have the HHKB in Type-S as well if you can stomach it...

[daerid]

Depends on what you want to do. Personally I can't stand variable weighted boards, but to me it's a toss up between the 87u 45g and the HHKB. Gotta have the arrow keys on Windows. On OSX, not so much.

Although, I must say that typing on the HHKB is the best experience I've ever had.

[khaangaaroo]

Choosing between HHKB and Realforce might depend on how much you use arrow keys, and how often you keep both hands over the keyboard. I can see how HHKB might be better for programming/coding, and the Realforce layout might be better for design/graphics where you keep one hand mostly on the mouse and have enough modifier keys to hit already.

How the keys feel should be the same between the two given the domes are the same. I don't think plate mounted in the Realforce vs the plastic HHKB matters much? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)
It comes down to preference between variable, 45g, or 55g. or even 30g if you import a board.

[nar]

Well your main choices are HHKB and RF.

HHKB has the compact Unix layout that may take some time to get used too.
RF has the normal Fullsize and TKL layouts.

I've never used a HHKB so I can't comment on that, but the RFs are built quite solid and come with the awesome Dye Subbed Keycaps.

Two things I'd mention: First consider getting a used Topre board, it'll be cheaper and are built well enough that it shouldn't be a problem, especially with the standard PBT Keycaps (save for the spacebar). Secondly most JP versions that are easily available in NA seem to be really overpriced, it's almost always cheaper to just buy it from something like Amazon.co.jp and get a service to forward it to you.

There's also the rarer Non-RF Topre variants that aren't sold normally like my HE0100 short throw or the KB106DE that has high profile spherical (typewriter style) keycaps. You'd need to spent some time and effort finding these (and they will pretty much always be used since I believe these are only sold directly to companies and never for retail) but funny enough there usually cheaper than even used RFs when you find them.

[xsphat]

They have the HHKB in Type-S as well if you can stomach it...

What do you mean by that? I have been curious about those S-Type joints.

[fuzzybaffy]

They have the HHKB in Type-S as well if you can stomach it...

What do you mean by that? I have been curious about those S-Type joints.

I think he's referring to the price. S-Type boards carry like a $100 premium or something crazy like that (over the regular HHKB Pro).

To me... Topre boards have by far away much better build quality, and switch quality than Cherry MX based boards/switches. Check out my video to get a feel for how they are here:

I'll be frank, I have had second thoughts about my personal Topre board, and have considered re-selling them here in the classifieds section (you can find my thread if you can), in order to switch back to a Cherry MX based board, but I think ultimately, Topre boards won me out. Just their sheer build quality, as well as the quality of the switches... make it hard to miss out on. Obviously, if you've never used them, you won't know, but that's kinda my point... is that, since I've already tried it, and used it for about a week... I just know I'll miss this Topre board if I sell it.

Also, daerid:

Although, I must say that typing on the HHKB is the best experience I've ever had.

Do you mean this because of the actual switches (I heard HHKB switches are slightly different than regular Topre boards), or because of the layout?

[xsphat]

I had a Topre and an HHKB Pro2 at the same time and they do feel different. They also sound different, but it was years ago so I couldn't say just how.

And thanks for the clarification. I have heard the silent Topre switch feels like an HHKB Lite 2, so I was more curious what type of GHer would buy one.

[khaangaaroo]

I personally love the silenced keys on my Realforce

It's kinda like having the nice bottoming out feel of Topre, but on the upstroke too. It won't feel much different if you lift your finger quickly off the key right after pressing it. But when you type slowly, or when you press the same key repeatedly (like during gaming or design work), you can feel the difference. Plus, it also does what it advertises: silences.

[iArson]

Ah such awesome input after a long days work. So its pretty much RF and HHBK to focus on. Price isn't really a concern for me right now, its pretty much the want to get away from a full keyboard a different feel when working. My fingers weep with blacks :/

[xsphat]

It should come down to layout for you. If you like the HHKB layout, which most do, go for it. If not, get the tkl Topre. You really can't lose. And then you can give me your old keyboard

[tp4tissue]

Here's my argument against HHKB...

That advantage of a $300-400 keyboard is purely psychological, a "collectors" mentality and NOT of ANY PRACTICAL use.

You're much better off spending your money on a cherry mechanical, the quickfire rapids, and use the rest of the cash for something "actually useful" like a porn subscription, or a new graphics card.


The main issue is that the modern computer keyboard interface has peaked in terms of improvements. Yes you can add upon it infinity, but as is, ANY keyboard well exceeds our capacity to utilize them.

Making the step to Mechanical has some immediately tangible effects such as increased key press consistency and precision..

Making the step from Mechanical to "Expensive Mechanical" does NOT produce any such gains...

Whatever people "claim" that Topre has done for them, is a culmination of Stockholm syndrome, effort justification, and confirmation bias. 

[fuzzybaffy]

 ^ Have you owned a Topre keyboard before?

[MMB]

HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever. Nevermind the haters.

Also, topre is just smooth. Like typing on boobies.

[mehkat1974]

just got a type s, I have had a couple of RF's - variable and 55g

type S slays them, it's a beautiful keyboard, best feel ever.

However, the layout is going to take me ages to get used to coming from a poker, and I have to say also that it really is too expensive for what it is. I dare say standard hhkb pro 2 is worth the premium

[rootwyrm]

Here's my argument against HHKB...

That advantage of a $300-400 keyboard is purely psychological, a "collectors" mentality and NOT of ANY PRACTICAL use.

Ding, pretty much this.
HHKB commands the premium for the layout, controller and switches, sure. But the premium is excessive, no question. Given the demand, I have a hard time seeing any justification for a >$225 pricetag - especially since the HHKB itself hasn't actually changed all that much since 1996. (I used to use one to deal with Sun AXi's because it was easier than carrying a Type4.) Hell, they're still using the same tooling for the case.
By all logic, the price of the HHKB should be LOWER because they're producing more of them, they're producing more of the parts used to build them, and they've long since recouped the investment on the dies and tooling.
TL;DR version: HHKB at $300-445+ when Realforce 104UB is $275 and 87U is $300? Seriously? Pretty damn sure we paid less than that for the HHKB Sun, and that was when the things were rarer than hen's teeth - not sold by the 10 pack online.

The main issue is that the modern computer keyboard interface has peaked in terms of improvements. Yes you can add upon it infinity, but as is, ANY keyboard well exceeds our capacity to utilize them.

Pretty much. With stuff like Kinesis, DataHand, etcetera, where the tooling and manufacturing is complex and there's something specifically unique to them as well as low quantities, yeah. You're paying for the engineering, tooling, and ergo benefits or programmability or what have you. But when you're talking about anything CST-104 based, or anything that's been on the market with very few to no changes as long as buckling spring or the HHKB? Come on. Thermaltake tried introducing the Meka G1 (CST104) at $149 MSRP - how many people actually bought one at that price? Almost none. At the $90 and under price point where the rest of the badged CST104s were/are and most of the barebones MX Black/Blue/Browns are? Hey look... And how much of a stink would you all raise if Unicomp said 'base 105 key now $200, EnduraPro $400'? Yep.

Not saying there's anything wrong with buying based on your preferences - just don't pretend there's some other magical reason. Or actual economic justification for the hyperinflated pricetags. It's marketing hype with the HHKB just like people complain about coming from Razer or others - or did folks forget the $4,250 HHKB GB with it's 10 coats of lacquer? You're not buying another $100+ worth of parts over a Realforce 87U or 104UB. You're not paying for $100+ of additional engineering work required. You're paying for the name.

[fuzzybaffy]

rootwyrm: Have you owned a Topre keyboard before?

And, btw. The 1996 HHKB you used at work used membrane switches (not Topre ones), according to the wikipedia entry I found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard

So, I take it as a no. You haven't owned one before.

[pitashen]

I have tried Topre boards before. While they are nice, Cherry MX are also very likable and I don't the have the extra money to invest in a board I don't desperately desire for I don't have a very high income. That being said, I don't think it is worth going harsh on people who criticize either cherry MX or Topre. They are nice in their own way and which one one choose to hate is purely a matter of personal opinion and preference.

Be there peace on this forum.

[fuzzybaffy]

I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them.

And this isn't the first time I've seen this in the geekhack boards.

In my experience, Topre keyboard build quality is miles above any Costar based board (including Filco boards). I have absolutely no problem saying they are 1.5x to 2.0x better built than a Filco board.

The same goes for the Topre switches. They are smoother, and they have less wobble, all of which indicate higher quality than Cherry MX switches. This, personally, has led me to type more accurately, which in turn, has given me higher average WPMs, than I got with Cherry keyboards. So, it's not just an issue of how the keyboard feels; you are actually getting concrete benefits out of owning a Topre board. It is far easier to type accurately on these boards.

So, yes... When you pay the extra dollar to buy a Topre, you are paying for good reasons: they have better build quality (MUCH better build quality), and much better quality switches.

[fuzzybaffy]

I have tried Topre boards before. While they are nice, Cherry MX are also very likable and I don't the have extra money to invest in a board I don't desperately desire for I don't have high income. That being said, I don't think it is worth going harsh on people who criticize either cherry MX or Topre. They are nice in their own way and which one one choose to hate is purely a matter of personal opinion and preference.

Be there peace on this forum.

This isn't an issue of subjectivity. I have no problem if someone prefers a Cherry MX board over Topre board. A lot of people do, and there is absolutely no problem with that. What I'm having issues with is the mis-information, the flat-out lies that are being told by people, who have never owned Topre boards before!

You can't criticize Topre board engineering, or lack thereof, when you haven't owned one before. You can't say, "oh, gosh, Topre boards are just a giant rip-off, because they are just like rubber dome boards", when you haven't owned one before. This is people literally making stuff up. And, THAT bothers me.

[fuzzybaffy]

People who have never owned Topre boards before... are the ones criticizing them. LOL!

[pitashen]

This isn't an issue of subjectivity. I have no problem if someone prefers a Cherry MX board over Topre board. A lot of people do, and there is absolutely no problem with that. What I'm having issues with is the mis-information, the flat-out lies that are being told by people, who have never owned Topre boards before!

You can't criticize Topre board engineering, or lack thereof, when you haven't owned one before. You can't say, "oh, gosh, Topre boards are just a giant rip-off, because they are just like rubber dome boards", when you haven't owned one before. This is people literally making stuff up. And, THAT bothers me.

Again, not worth being offended.  Just enjoy what you own.

[fuzzybaffy]

This isn't an issue of subjectivity. I have no problem if someone prefers a Cherry MX board over Topre board. A lot of people do, and there is absolutely no problem with that. What I'm having issues with is the mis-information, the flat-out lies that are being told by people, who have never owned Topre boards before!

You can't criticize Topre board engineering, or lack thereof, when you haven't owned one before. You can't say, "oh, gosh, Topre boards are just a giant rip-off, because they are just like rubber dome boards", when you haven't owned one before. This is people literally making stuff up. And, THAT bothers me.

Again, not worth being offended.  Just enjoy what you own.

No no. Like I said. I'm not offended that some people like Cherry switches more. I'm bothered by people who keep spreading lies and mis-information. There's a big difference there.

There is a real, actual problem, if people keep spreading misinformation. This actually affects other people who are trying to research keyboards, so I'm trying to address it. I'm trying to clear things up. There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing.

[pitashen]

I'm bothered by people who keep spreading lies and mis-information. There's a big difference there.

Don't worry about that either. I bet people are mostly put off by the price to start with. People who are really inclined to get one would do enough research so that their own judgements can be as subjective and truthful as possible.

[fuzzybaffy]

I'm bothered by people who keep spreading lies and mis-information. There's a big difference there.

Don't worry about that either. I bet people are mostly put off by the price to start with.

Uh... no thanks? If I want to clear up misinformation, I'm going to clear up misinformation, thank you very much.

People who are really inclined to get one would do enough research so that their own judgements can be as subjective and truthful as possible.

... Yea... that's why I'm trying to clear up misinformation........................

[WhiteFireDragon]

In my experience, Topre keyboard build quality is miles above any Costar based board (including Filco boards). I have absolutely no problem saying they are 1.5x to 2.0x better built than a Filco board.

The same goes for the Topre switches. They are smoother, and they have less wobble, all of which indicate higher quality than Cherry MX switches. This, personally, has led me to type more accurately, which in turn, has given me higher average WPMs, than I got with Cherry keyboards. So, it's not just an issue of how the keyboard feels; you are actually getting concrete benefits out of owning a Topre board. It is far easier to type accurately on these boards.

How do you quantify "quality"? And what conditions makes it exactly 1.5 times higher quality? It's like you're throwing out random numbers.

So you're telling us the slight wobble in the keys from MX switches makes your typing less accurate? And you lose typing speed when the keys "wobble"? You lose credibility when you make these kind of claims. But if somehow this is true, then you need to work on your typing habits. It's not the keyboard.

[fuzzybaffy]

In my experience, Topre keyboard build quality is miles above any Costar based board (including Filco boards). I have absolutely no problem saying they are 1.5x to 2.0x better built than a Filco board.

The same goes for the Topre switches. They are smoother, and they have less wobble, all of which indicate higher quality than Cherry MX switches. This, personally, has led me to type more accurately, which in turn, has given me higher average WPMs, than I got with Cherry keyboards. So, it's not just an issue of how the keyboard feels; you are actually getting concrete benefits out of owning a Topre board. It is far easier to type accurately on these boards.

How do you quantify "quality"? And what conditions makes it exactly 1.5 times higher quality? It's like you're throwing out random numbers.

So you're telling us the slight wobble in the keys from MX switches makes your typing less accurate? And you lose typing speed when the keys "wobble"? You lose credibility when you make these kind of claims. But if somehow this is true, then you need to work on your typing habits. It's not the keyboard.

Why don't you actually try a Topre board yourself, before debunking my claims? And, yes, 1.5x to 2.0x better built. You flex two pieces of cardboard, and if it takes roughly twice as much strength to fold one than the other, then you can intuit that the stronger piece is about 2.0x stronger than the other piece of cardboard. This is all intuition. I'm not making scientific, concrete claims. But just because I'm making intuitive guesses doesn't mean they're without validation. Topre keyboards, FOR A FACT, are better built than Costar boards. There is no way around this. They're heavier. They are more solid.

I did say these were my personal experiences. Others may be different. And if they are, that's perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that. But, for me, personally, yes, I can type more accurately on Topre boards. When the keys are wobbly on Cherry boards, you have to be conscious with the way you hit each key. Not so with Topre, which helps with accuracy, and therefore WPM. 

I'm nowhere close to Sean Wrona, by any means, but, I'm a decent typist. I can average ~105 WPM. I like how you threw in an insult there; it's indicative you don't have much of an argument to stand on, other than to insult other people.

I also find it funny that people have an issue with other people suggesting Topre boards. So, I can't suggest or make positive claims about Topre boards, but people can make positive suggestions about Cherry boards? Is that how it goes now?

[fuzzybaffy]

Why do Cherry people always try to crash Topre love-fests? I don't ever see it the other way around.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I've typed on a topre before, not sure why you would assume I haven't. But I haven't gotten the chance to open one up though. The overall quality is a subjective matter that you're trying to shoehorn into a random number. Outer aesthetics is just one aspect, but you also need to open it up to look at the insides. Check the electronics components chosen (by OEM or manufacturer) because these vary in quality and specs, look at assembly and soldering, etc. And you said it yourself, the 1.5x number is just an intuitive guess.

Your claim of higher typing speeds as a result of less wobble sounds like snake oil. The amount of wobble on a MX switch is extremely little, relative to how big the keys and your fingers are. You're saying that that amount of wobble is enough for you to miss the keypress? Even if you purposely type on the edge of the keys, I don't see this happening.

Another assumption you made is my motive. No need to get defensive so easily. I'm not here to insult you, just questioning the validity of your claims because it's too biased. But if you interpret it the wrong way and get offended, so be it. I'll just let you continue to be the knight in shining armor for Mrs. Topre.

[fuzzybaffy]

Another assumption you made is my motive. No need to get defensive so easily. I'm not here to insult you, just questioning the validity of your claims because it's too biased. But if you interpret it the wrong way and get offended, so be it. I'll just let you continue to be the knight in shining armor for Mrs. Topre.

LOL. Like I've said before, I have no problem with people picking Cherry boards over Topre boards. I've said it NUMEROUS TIMES HERE IN THIS THREAD. I just have a problem with misinformation.

And, I'm being the white knight? No... let's not forget. It was you, out of nowhere, who decided to be offended by my supporting Topre boards, and chime in against Topre boards, which, by the way, would be considered off-topic because the OP is ONLY considering Topre boards. He is not looking for input regarding Cherry switches.

I've typed on a topre before, not sure why you would assume I haven't. But I haven't gotten the chance to open one up though. The overall quality is a subjective matter that you're trying to shoehorn into a random number. Outer aesthetics is just one aspect, but you also need to open it up to look at the insides. Check the electronics components chosen (by OEM or manufacturer) because these vary in quality and specs, look at assembly and soldering, etc. And you said it yourself, the 1.5x number is just an intuitive guess.

And sure. The electronics inside is something I hadn't considered. But, if you're going by how well built Topres are built on the outside in general... it's going to be pretty easy to intuit that the electronics inside will probably be just as good.

Your claim of higher typing speeds as a result of less wobble sounds like snake oil. The amount of wobble on a MX switch is extremely little, relative to how big the keys and your fingers are. You're saying that that amount of wobble is enough for you to miss the keypress? Even if you purposely type on the edge of the keys, I don't see this happening.

Well... it's pretty readily apparent that I'm not the only one who notices a difference in quality between Cherry switches and Topre switches:

Before he types on each keyboard, you'll see he swipes across them, to show the difference in the keys. So... yea... it's not just me with the experience. And just because I'm making a personal observation, doesn't mean it's invalid.

You're saying that that amount of wobble is enough for you to miss the keypress? Even if you purposely type on the edge of the keys, I don't see this happening.

You say you don't see this happening... but... it happens. I don't know what to tell you. You can't just deny the experiences I'm having with these keyboards. That's disingenuous and unfair.

Let's face it, dude. You're just here to invalidate my opinions and experiences with Topre keyboards. That makes YOU the "knight in shining" armor for Cherry switches.

[pitashen]

yawn*

[fuzzybaffy]

What? People want to get into a pissing match now? You're going to tell me I can't like Topre boards? I mean... that's all it's coming down to, between you and WhiteFireDragon. Is that what you're into? Telling people they can't like what they want to like?

[fuzzybaffy]

I can't even imagine what you guys look like in real life. I bet you guys look like dirty little perverts.

[pitashen]

I thought keyboardlover was bad enough, this is something else. lol, but i bet other senior members might have seen worse.

[fuzzybaffy]

I thought keyboardlover was bad enough, this is something else. lol, but i bet other senior members might have seen worse.

 

Whatever you say dude.

[xsphat]

I like Cherry and Topre switches. Come at me bros!

[laffindude]

I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them.

That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.

[khaangaaroo]

That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.

Excuse me, but have YOU ever owned a Topre board?

I'm gonna bust out a car analogy cause I like cars.
rubber dome : Cherry MX : Topre
Toyota : Mercedes : Rolls-Royce

Big leap in quality from the first to the second for a understandable price difference.
Marginal increase in quality from the second to the third for a pretty extreme price difference.

Is the price worth it in any of these cases? Always debatable. They all can do the same basic function. They just feel different.
It all depends on your preferences, how much money you have, and how you like to spend it.

Topre is great and all, but I think I prefer buying Rolls-Royces.

[xsphat]

So what's the Chevy of keyboards?

[iMav]

HHKB. Best. Layout. Ever.

This.

[khaangaaroo]

So what's the Chevy of keyboards?

alps? haha

[xsphat]

So what's the Chevy of keyboards?

alps? haha

Agreed.

[iArson]

Pending a few more pictures, I will be the owner of the HHKB JP

[daerid]

Here's my argument against HHKB...

That advantage of a $300-400 keyboard is purely psychological, a "collectors" mentality and NOT of ANY PRACTICAL use.

You're much better off spending your money on a cherry mechanical, the quickfire rapids, and use the rest of the cash for something "actually useful" like a porn subscription, or a new graphics card.


The main issue is that the modern computer keyboard interface has peaked in terms of improvements. Yes you can add upon it infinity, but as is, ANY keyboard well exceeds our capacity to utilize them.

Making the step to Mechanical has some immediately tangible effects such as increased key press consistency and precision..

Making the step from Mechanical to "Expensive Mechanical" does NOT produce any such gains...

Whatever people "claim" that Topre has done for them, is a culmination of Stockholm syndrome, effort justification, and confirmation bias. 

somebody mad bro

[rootwyrm]

So what's the Chevy of keyboards?

alps? haha

SMK.
Wait, no. I think they're Pontiac.

[laffindude]

Excuse me, but have YOU ever owned a Topre board?

I'm gonna bust out a car analogy cause I like cars.
rubber dome : Cherry MX : Topre
Toyota : Mercedes : Rolls-Royce

Big leap in quality from the first to the second for a understandable price difference.
Marginal increase in quality from the second to the third for a pretty extreme price difference.

Topre is more like Lexus to me in that analogy.

[fuzzybaffy]

I'm just saying... I find it funny, that people who have never owned Topre boards, are the ones criticizing them.

That is the same statement Topre owners brings out every time whenever someone criticize Topre. Topre fans sure like to bring out the sour grape argument.

Uh... apparently not, because it appears to be true? Did you read this thread? I asked two dudes, rootwyrm, and t4ptissue, if they have owned Topre boards before, and they haven't replied, which probably means no, they haven't owned Topre boards before.

 

I don't know what to say, bro. It ain't sour grapes if it's true!

And... you still haven't answered khaangaaroo's question. Have you owned a Topre board before?

[khaangaaroo]

Topre is more like Lexus to me in that analogy.

Nah dude. Lexus is still a Toyota. Lexus would be like a nice Logtech rubber dome.

If you look at it in terms of pricing...

cheapest rubber dome, Cherry MX, Topre:
$10, $50, $250

cheapest Toyota, Mercedes, Rolls-Royce:
$14k, $35k, $225k

I'm not a big fan of Lexus though. German cars all the way!

[mehkat1974]

The law of diminishing returns! Is a realforce better than a filco? Of course it is, but don't ask the guy who has only used the filco.

Hardly relevant to the question "what's the best topre board"

[laffindude]

^^Exactly. They're nicely built rubber domes, hence why I think they're Lexus. Before you equate rubber domes with membrane boards, try some older PCB based rubber domes. It is rubber dome over membrane that suck. And yes, I do own a 104u variable and HHKB2Pro.

Only German worth buying is M and AMG. Owned both. Prefer English sportscars.