A comparison between Model-M, Cherry MX Blue, and Thinkpad -- Topre next?

[Kurisu]

I have two Model-m style keyboards (one IBM from 1995, one unicomp from 2001), but lately I've been missing my Thinkpad keyfeel.

If anyone has used a pre-2010 thinkpad, you know what I mean: Immediate resistance at the top of the key stroke until you reach the resistence threshhold, and then a *snap* and the key hits the board. Let your finger up and the key bounces immediately back into place. It's perfect for touch typing because the key snaps down and up as fast as your fingers can move. There's nothing like it. And recent Thinkpad keyboards are mushy in comparison (but still much better than any other scissor-switch keyboard, and light years better than any other rubber dome, and I've even tried to Logitech PerfectStroke -- what a joke that is).

The IBM Model-m is the only other keyboard I've found that has a similar *snap* when the key actuates, and *snap* back into place. Of course they are different -- the Model-m has a loud clack, and a long keystroke, while the Thinkpad is quiet (still an audible click though, which sounds loud compared to other mushy laptop switches) and the keystroke is shallower. But I would put them in the same class of quality.

The problem is that there is no Thinkpad-style desktop keyboard. I have bought the Lenovo USB thinkpad style keyboard -- it's horrible. Not at all like pre-2010 keyboards, and actually worse than 2010-2012 Thinkpad keyboards (but better than the newest "chicklet" Thinkpad keyboards - what a shame those are).

Cherry switches are different in comparison. I've tried the Razor BlackWidow which supposedly has blues, and if this is the famous Cherry MX Blue... Wow, what a disappointment. Sorry MX lovers, but that key has friction in the keystroke and very little *snap*. It bounces back slowly and feels squishy. Maybe this Razor is a fake MX blue? I did try all six of the models they had on display. So if that's the closest Cherry has to the Model-M style... no thanks.

tl;dr: Will the Topre satisfy my need? Does the key *snap* back into place? Does it feel mushy on the way down, or does it snap down with a solid thunk?

Thanks, and apologies for the long post -- like everyone else here, I know keyboards are the most important part of the computer (it's kind of tires for cars -- frequently overlooked, but this is where the rubber meets the road). 

[iri]

a good quality membrane keyboard may satisfy your need. a keytronic 3600, for example. maybe some other models, i am sure people here will come up with some. there's not much need to spend $300 on a topre board.

[FoxWolf1]

Tried any ALPS? There is a lot of variation within ALPS, but they often have a higher actuation point compared to Cherry MX as well as a more substantial tactility.

Also, re: Razer: they are real MX Blue, but the feel is reduced in quality by the poor overall construction of the keyboard.

[davkol]

I'm not sure what you mean, but check out vintage BTC keyboards (51xx line I guess).

[tp4tissue]

Note on TOPRE,

It IS rubber-dome... If you've felt rubber dome, you've felt topre, they are IDENTICAL in feel.

Some very bad rubber dome keyboards have very heavy rubbers, 'TOPRE is generally much lighter than those at 45g and 55g, that is the only appreciable difference.

Buckling spring is like if a rice sized leprechaun lived in each key and you squished his bones everytime you typed, but he resurrects after you let go of the key.. That's what it sounds and feels like.


MX Blue has a very distinct feel due to the SOUND and pronounced click

MX Brown, Red, Black, all feel very linear when you're really typing fast... the difference between black and red in resistance is negligible when typing fast

[Magnusian]

I have two Model-m style keyboards (one IBM from 1995, one unicomp from 2001), but lately I've been missing my Thinkpad keyfeel.

If anyone has used a pre-2010 thinkpad, you know what I mean: Immediate resistance at the top of the key stroke until you reach the resistence threshhold, and then a *snap* and the key hits the board. Let your finger up and the key bounces immediately back into place. It's perfect for touch typing because the key snaps down and up as fast as your fingers can move. There's nothing like it. And recent Thinkpad keyboards are mushy in comparison (but still much better than any other scissor-switch keyboard, and light years better than any other rubber dome, and I've even tried to Logitech PerfectStroke -- what a joke that is).

I have a new x230 thinkpad and I've found that the keyboard is exactly as you describe for "pre-2010" the keys aren't mushy at all.

Still not as nice as my Model Ms though, it's why I want something like a SSK with a trackpoint.

Also, I agree about cherry switches, the only ones I can really even tolerate are greens, but even they feel too mushy.

[cytoSiN]

Buckling spring is like if a rice sized leprechaun lived in each key and you squished his bones everytime you typed, but he resurrects after you let go of the key.. That's what it sounds and feels like.

I'm gonna feel bad typing on my Model Ms forever more....

[webs0r]

From what you're saying I think the Matias Quiet Pro is an option. I only got to play with mine for a day (came new with F key ghosting problem so had to send back) but in the limited time I played with it I thought it felt like a cherry brown vs. rubber dome hybrid.

Differences I could detect were:
- similar feel to cherry brown tactility
- but actuation point seemed to be immediately at the top/start of the press (similar to rubber dome)
- key travel feels clean and defined like a mechanical
- then resistance increases as you go down
- soft landings felt like rubber dome
- very quiet

I was quite surprised that it felt like this! But I could imagine quite liking it, just need mine back now!!
Too bad no TKL Seems like a monster on my desk after I've gotten used to TKLs

[dorkvader]

I have a new x230 thinkpad and I've found that the keyboard is exactly as you describe for "pre-2010" the keys aren't mushy at all.

Still not as nice as my Model Ms though, it's why I want something like a SSK with a trackpoint.

Also, I agree about cherry switches, the only ones I can really even tolerate are greens, but even they feel too mushy.

I would say the X230 keyboard is much better than the X220, but I still don't like them that much when compared to other mechanical keyswitches. I don't really get why people don't like chiclet's that much. If done well it can be good. For comparison, I really dislike the keyboard on my friend's X61 and X40.

I don't know what RD's you have that actuate near the top. All the RD's I've ever seen actuate on bottom out.

I would also like to say that we experienced a failure rate of about 3% / year for X220 displays (Most manufacturers are about 1% on any failure) Lenovo had to recall 700 or so X230's all for one issue (the Express card slot was broken on them all), and they still haven't fixed some issues with the warranty on others. I don't know why so many seem to hold Lenovo / thinkpad as a paragon of excellence. To me, they have just as many issues as the other manufacturers.

I'd recommend going with an IBM Model F: Like a model M, but better.

[daerid]

Note on TOPRE,

It IS rubber-dome... If you've felt rubber dome, you've felt topre, they are IDENTICAL in feel.

This is absolutely not true.

[FoxWolf1]

I don't know what RD's you have that actuate near the top. All the RD's I've ever seen actuate on bottom out.

It's not that they actuate near the top, but that you hit the actuation force threshold while still near the top of the travel. The domes on a proper ThinkPad don't squish the way other domes do; they resist when the amount of force is low, and then they collapse, resulting in a tactile feedback event and the switch bottoming out.

Personally, it's not my first choice of switch, but I can see why some people might like it, and certainly it's better than many other scissor/dome options.

[Magnusian]

I have a new x230 thinkpad and I've found that the keyboard is exactly as you describe for "pre-2010" the keys aren't mushy at all.

Still not as nice as my Model Ms though, it's why I want something like a SSK with a trackpoint.

Also, I agree about cherry switches, the only ones I can really even tolerate are greens, but even they feel too mushy.

I would say the X230 keyboard is much better than the X220, but I still don't like them that much when compared to other mechanical keyswitches. I don't really get why people don't like chiclet's that much. If done well it can be good. For comparison, I really dislike the keyboard on my friend's X61 and X40.

I don't know what RD's you have that actuate near the top. All the RD's I've ever seen actuate on bottom out.

I would also like to say that we experienced a failure rate of about 3% / year for X220 displays (Most manufacturers are about 1% on any failure) Lenovo had to recall 700 or so X230's all for one issue (the Express card slot was broken on them all), and they still haven't fixed some issues with the warranty on others. I don't know why so many seem to hold Lenovo / thinkpad as a paragon of excellence. To me, they have just as many issues as the other manufacturers.

I'd recommend going with an IBM Model F: Like a model M, but better.

I am not a big fan of any laptop keyboard, but fullsize buckling springs on a laptop will never happen.

My only beef with Lenovo is that they changed up the x230 offering a week after I ordered mine which resulted in a $300 price difference for the same system. They were kind enough to give me a slight refund ($130), but I really wish I'd known ahead of time because I would've gone with some other upgrades I'd decided against due to cost.

Still, it's one of the best laptops I've used in years, it replaced a EEEpc 1201n which had one of the worst laptop keyboards I'd ever typed on. It's also nowhere near as flimsy as many other machines I've owned or tried out. This machine's keyboard I would consider the second best of any laptop I've owned, the best being the keyboard on my first laptop, a Toshiba Portege 660CDT. I love how 20 years later the trackpoint on my Thinkpad still has the propensity to wander around on it's own from time to time, just like the one on the Portege... That's my only real complaint with the machine itself, but I'd rather deal with that than use a trackpad.

[daerid]

I personally love the Apple chiclet keyboard. Except after a year or two it starts getting mushy

[tp4tissue]

Note on TOPRE,

It IS rubber-dome... If you've felt rubber dome, you've felt topre, they are IDENTICAL in feel.

This is absolutely not true.

You Liar... I listened to you guys BEFORE I got a topre... Then only to find out it feels exactly like a rubber dome keyboard.

Is it Better than a rubber dome? Yes, but it still feels like a rubber dome, because it IS a rubber dome.

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles, but overall, it is NOT better than any light weight rubber dome keyboard when new.

[TotalChaos]

Note on TOPRE,

It IS rubber-dome... If you've felt rubber dome, you've felt topre, they are IDENTICAL in feel.

This is absolutely not true.

You Liar... I listened to you guys BEFORE I got a topre... Then only to find out it feels exactly like a rubber dome keyboard.

Is it Better than a rubber dome? Yes, but it still feels like a rubber dome, because it IS a rubber dome.

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles, but overall, it is NOT better than any light weight rubber dome keyboard when new.

I am not defending Topre so don't accuse me of that

I am going to try to solve this argument by saying that

1. I think both sides agree that the top part of the keypress, where one must apply sufficient force to collapse the dome, is exactly the same on a traditional rubberdome over membrane keyboard vs. Topre switch keyboard. Agree?

2. I think both sides agree that the middle part, the falling thru after the dome has been "broken thru" feels exactly the same on a traditional rubberdome over membrane keyboard vs. Topre switch keyboard. Agree?

3. I think both sides agree that the bottom part where u crash into the bottom area feels totally different on a traditional rubberdome over membrane keyboard vs. Topre switch keyboard. Agree?

On Topre u crash into a collapsed Rubber Dome, right?  I never typed on one or examined how squishy it is so I donno how soft it is.  I just assume crashing on Topre is a lot softer than crashing into a PCB on a traditional Rubberdome over Membrane keyboard.  Agree?

[TotalChaos]

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles,

How can that be true?  What is it about a Topre switch keyboard that mechanically causes your statement to be true?
Is the rubber dome shaped differently?

[tp4tissue]

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles,

How can that be true?  What is it about a Topre switch keyboard that mechanically causes your statement to be true?
Is the rubber dome shaped differently?

The channel guide for the inner slider is Round, and LONGER than the average rubber dome sliders, with good engineering tolerance, thus the keypress feels more sturdy and straight compared to traditional rubber dome, which has a directional wobble feel.

The round part helps distribute the force more evenly against the channel.

[TotalChaos]

The channel guide for the inner slider is Round, and LONGER than the average rubber dome sliders, with good engineering tolerance, thus the keypress feels more sturdy and straight compared to traditional rubber dome, which has a directional wobble feel.

The round part helps distribute the force more evenly against the channel.

Thanx for the info!  I luv it when someone explains something to me scientifcally!

Many Topre users say they always bottom out and that "its almost impossible not to bottom out".  Do u agree with that statement?  And what g force are your rubber domes?

Topre always forces everyone to buy a whole new keyboard to get different weighting when all they need is some rubber that they could sell for $50.00 and make a good profit.

Do u feel it is rude of Topre to not sell differently weighted sets of rubber domes separately?

Are you aware that in Japan they have 30g Topre switch keyboards?
Would u like to try out that rubber in your current Topre keyboard?

If Topre would hire some kid in High School to fix their controller problem and then put 30g domes in their keyboard with US layout I would buy 1-3 of them.  I would have almost certainly bought 3 of them before I invested $1000.00 into Cherry switch keyboards.  Now if they fix all their problems I might only get 1 of them.

[daerid]

You Liar... I listened to you guys BEFORE I got a topre... Then only to find out it feels exactly like a rubber dome keyboard.

Is it Better than a rubber dome? Yes, but it still feels like a rubber dome, because it IS a rubber dome.

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles, but overall, it is NOT better than any light weight rubber dome keyboard when new.

Whoah dude.. calm down. No need for name calling here. I understand they may feel the same to you. Just don't state something that is clearly subjective opinion as fact. As far as I'm concerned, Topre and rubber domes are light years apart and feel nothing alike.

To you, they do. Who is correct? We both are, because it's opinion.

[daerid]

And TotalChaos: Just because they don't support PS/2 doesn't mean they have a controller "problem". They just don't make a product you want.

[iri]

i have two rubber domes with nice tactility and soft landing feel. microsoft and utt.

[TotalChaos]

Are there any wired UTT keyboards?

[tp4tissue]

The channel guide for the inner slider is Round, and LONGER than the average rubber dome sliders, with good engineering tolerance, thus the keypress feels more sturdy and straight compared to traditional rubber dome, which has a directional wobble feel.

The round part helps distribute the force more evenly against the channel.

Thanx for the info!  I luv it when someone explains something to me scientifcally!

Many Topre users say they always bottom out and that "its almost impossible not to bottom out".  Do u agree with that statement?  And what g force are your rubber domes?

Topre always forces everyone to buy a whole new keyboard to get different weighting when all they need is some rubber that they could sell for $50.00 and make a good profit.

Do u feel it is rude of Topre to not sell differently weighted sets of rubber domes separately?

Are you aware that in Japan they have 30g Topre switch keyboards?
Would u like to try out that rubber in your current Topre keyboard?

If Topre would hire some kid in High School to fix their controller problem and then put 30g domes in their keyboard with US layout I would buy 1-3 of them.  I would have almost certainly bought 3 of them before I invested $1000.00 into Cherry switch keyboards.  Now if they fix all their problems I might only get 1 of them.

It's impossible to not bottom out on topre because the the resistence POST buckling point drops lower. So when you ramp up strength to overcome the snap, you don't have time to slow down. But I've explained this numerous times, the FASTEST typing technique REQUIRES bottoming out...

I do hate the fact that Topre does not sell replacement parts, but if what they claim as "super low" failure rate is true, then I suppose it may not be necessary.

I never tried the 30g topre, I originally bought a 45g uniform tkl. which I quickly sold because it felt exactly like any other rubber dome, and I couldn't make up any reasons like the rest of the topre crowd to trick myself into keeping the keyboard.

The Topre makers must be laughing all the way to the BANK... 

[Polymer]

You Liar... I listened to you guys BEFORE I got a topre... Then only to find out it feels exactly like a rubber dome keyboard.

Is it Better than a rubber dome? Yes, but it still feels like a rubber dome, because it IS a rubber dome.

There is less wobble in the key, and the actuation is better from more angles, but overall, it is NOT better than any light weight rubber dome keyboard when new.

Whoah dude.. calm down. No need for name calling here. I understand they may feel the same to you. Just don't state something that is clearly subjective opinion as fact. As far as I'm concerned, Topre and rubber domes are light years apart and feel nothing alike.

To you, they do. Who is correct? We both are, because it's opinion.

They are definitely very similar in feel..mainly because Topre is mostly Rubber Dome..made in basically the same way.  They do have a stability and oneness (I saw someone else use this term and that is exactly what I called it prior to reading their comment) that normal rubber domes don't have but IMO, going between Topre and Rubber Dome is a much more similar feel than going to a Cherry or Alps from Topre....

I'm not saying the quality isn't light years apart..they are...

[daerid]

The Topre makers must be laughing all the way to the BANK... 

I wouldn't say laughing, but yeah.. they make a high quality niche product and charge a premium for it. Like a whole slew of other companies.

Did Topre kill your favorite dog or something? Just trying to figure out where the hate is coming from

[iri]

why $300 topre is superior to your $3 generic membrane keyboard:

1) higher quality materials and construction
2) keys are stabilized and don't wobble
3) switch activates halfway down -- no need to bottom out (though you most likely will)

that's all, folks!

Are there any wired UTT keyboards?

mine is AT.

[jkercado]

Your description of the ThinkPad keyboard sounds very similar to how the IBM M4 feels...

[BlindRAGE606]

Sounds like a Topre-hate circle jerk in here.

To each their own really, there's nothing wrong with buying and going for a test drive since the resale value of such boards are high.