If I don't like Brown and Blue, will I like Realforce?

[simingma]

Hi guys,

I have tried a Das with Blue and KBT PURE with Browns. I feel both lack of pronounced solid tactile bump feel, and to me Brown feels worse than the Blue. I do have strong fingers and love to bottom out.

Question is: what's next?

I'm getting the new Matias Tactile Pro ver 4 today to try. But would love some input especially from Realforce users (especially the key weight). So far I'm not a big fan of the compact layout, so HHKB is not in my consideration at this moment.

Thanks!

[daerid]

Love my RealForces, but I also like browns and blues (just can't use them anymore for extended periods, they make my fingers hurt).

If you want to go the RF route, I'd suggest a 55g uniform since you love bottoming out (as do I).

[jdcarpe]

I didn't really like Topre boards. They just feel like a really high-quality rubber dome keyboard (probably because that's exactly what they are).

Sounds like you should try MX Clears, or, if those aren't resistive enough for your strong fingers, MX Greys.

Oh, and Welcome to Geekhack!

[Magna224]

I felt the same way. I like ALPS best after trying all the switches I could think of(That are reasonable to come by). The Topres are nice because they bottom out soft. The topres don't have the same feel as a mechanical switch though but I do find it to feel more tactile than the cherry switches.

[SmallFry]

Inb4 TP!

[tp4tissue]

Inb4 TP!

dmn it.

[tp4tissue]

I didn't really like Topre boards. They just feel like a really high-quality rubber dome keyboard (probably because that's exactly what they are).

Sounds like you should try MX Clears, or, if those aren't resistive enough for your strong fingers, MX Greys.

Oh, and Welcome to Geekhack!

oh i been yelling this at the top of my lungs for weeks.

[daerid]

oh i been yelling this at the top of my lungs for weeks.

that's why nobody listens. stop yelling, and we might

[tp4tissue]

oh i been yelling this at the top of my lungs for weeks.

that's why nobody listens. stop yelling, and we might

I don't care if you listen, long' as you heard me... that's all it takes. the 'seed of descent befalls you 

[precarious]

MX Greys.

[jabar]

or MX Greens if you like the clicky. It is pretty hard to consistently bottom out on Greens for long periods of time.

Now these Reds I'm typing on...

[SmallFry]

Inb4 TP!

dmn it.

Just thought I'd throw that out there bud. )

[simingma]

Thanks everyone and the warm welcome, good to be part of it.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have a Model M but feel its a bit too firm. Don't think I have finger of that strong 

If I won't feel the key banging the plate maybe Realforce isn't for me. But where's that thock sound from?

[Binge]

I think you should like that matias try typing with it on your lap, but if you are heavy handed and want tactility why not get a keyboard with MX greens???  Throw some o-rings on it and bottoming out becomes less... jarring.

[tp4tissue]

I think you should like that matias try typing with it on your lap, but if you are heavy handed and want tactility why not get a keyboard with MX greens???  Throw some o-rings on it and bottoming out becomes less... jarring.

hmm....

this may be a good idea.. But if you really want to do this, you will need a "BIG" keyboard, otherwise, it'll be really hard to keep it on the lap.

[rootwyrm]

Buckling Spring = 70cN-80cN typical
MX Green = 80cN typical

Therefore, if M is too firm, MX Green definitely will be. The Green has a smoother resistance profile than the M, but the force is about the same. It sounds to me like he's looking for around 55-65cN which would be slightly heavier than MX Blue and right around Fuhua White (~65-70cN) or Grey (~60-65cN). Only keyboard with 'em? Matias. And they're really the only stock switch in that particular range to my knowledge.

[TotalChaos]

Hi guys,

I have tried a Das with Blue and KBT PURE with Browns. I feel both lack of pronounced solid tactile bump feel,

If you can't feel the impact of "bottoming out" as u call it, or "crashing" as I call it, a hard rigid inflexible piece of plastic into a steel plate then you have Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, Leprosy, or some other horrible nerve problem.

You cannot realistically attain more tactility in a keyboard than smashing rigid plastic into steel. (ok there ARE steel keyboards with steel keys mounted on a steel plate with super stiff springs which have super tactility.  I was on a website once looking at them.  They are made of totally indestructible stainless steel.  They are expensive but they are very beautiful keyboards and they might be just what you are looking for.)


If smashing plastic into steel is not enough stimulation for you then a Topre will do absolutely nothing for you.  Neither will a Matias Quiet.
 

and to me Brown feels worse than the Blue. I do have strong fingers and love to bottom out.

Why do u love to bottom out?
Please try to explain this.

You should try Cherry Blacks.  I think part of the problem u r having is that you have finger muscles that want to exercise.  Nothing wrong with that.  I was the same way.  Cherry Blacks are the answer.  You will get your muscle stimulation.  Get a plate mounted board such as WASD or Filco for your extreme tactile bumpsmash you are craving (it is horrifically unhealthy to do that but whatever).

Small children who are going deaf "love to listen to a loud vacuum cleaner".  They have a serious medical problem that makes them enjoy overly loud noises, because to them, the noises are soft and pleasing due to their medical condition.

I am not saying you have a medical problem.  You might simply need an "excuse" to buy every single type of keyboard known to man. 

[jdcarpe]

Personally, I don't think the OP's problem is actually the resistive force of the buckling springs, but rather the force curve. BS builds sharply to a strong actuation force at the buckling point of the spring, then fall off sharply to nothing.

I still recommend trying MX Clears, as the tactile bump is very pronounced, and you WILL feel the actuation point before you bottom out.

Alternatively, have you considered linears, such as MX Blacks or Reds? Since you like to bottom out anyway, you may like not having the tactile bump at all. With time, you might even find you prefer the softer springs of the Reds over the Blacks.

[daerid]

I don't care if you listen, long' as you heard me... that's all it takes. the 'seed of descent befalls you 

Hearing isn't the same as listening. I can hear people talking all day long without actually listening to what they say. At that point it's just noise. You might as well be Charlie Brown's teacher at that point.

[daerid]

Why do u love to bottom out?
Please try to explain this.

Man, I love bottoming out too. The feel is just solid. I've been doing it for 15 years without any ill effects.

[khaangaaroo]

If I won't feel the key banging the plate maybe Realforce isn't for me. But where's that thock sound from?

The thock sound comes from of air moving out from underneath the rubber dome (tthhh...) and the rubber hitting the PCB when you bottom out (...ock). I think the case also has a lot to do with amplifying the sound. I use my Realforce without the case, and theres noticeably less thock than when I use it with case.

But back to your original question: Like some others have suggested, I think you should try ergo clears or green alps (even cheaper.) They have a very pronounced bumps and are not as expensive as Topre.

[daerid]

Without the case? Say wha? You just have it sitting there bare bones?

[TotalChaos]

Without the case? Say wha? You just have it sitting there bare bones?

He got the Naked Edition. 

[simingma]

Just got home. Opened my Matias and wow.....this is the one for me!!!

To me its tactile point feels both higher and sharper comparing to MX, and easier to actuate than buckling spring.  I found a very similar feel as on a keyboard that I used in the early 90s.

Anyway, thanks everybody!

[yester64]

I am not sure, but i find my blue good. Brown are good too but i never tried red and black. (haven't found any store where i can try them)
I did however like keyboard like you find i old electric brother typewriters. Never found anything similar in pc keyboards.

[nsrexler]

I'm a little late to the party but I just wanted to say that I did pretty much the exact same thing as the OP. Model M was too loud/heavy, Cherry Blues and Browns weren't tactile enough, and I ended up settling on a Matias (although I went with the Quiet Pro instead of the Tactile Pro.)

[Germiphene]

Congrats on the Matias tactile Pro, that's a great keyboard!  If you've never tried topres, I'd say not to worry about it, as they're bloody expensive.  I LOVE my topres, as I like bottoming out as well, and no other keyboard I've tried feels the same.  But what you don't know can't hurt you, and that's a real nice KB you got!

[daerid]

TBH, the Tactile/Quiet Pro are the only mech boards that I haven't tried out so far. I'll probably end up getting one. If the QP feels anything like a Topre when bottoming out, I may end up really liking it (god forbid).

[rknize]

Based on what you said and your reaction to the Tactile Pro, I'd say the only Cherry key for you would be the ergo-clear.  They are about as tactile as MX can get...even more than regular clears because you really feel the leaf spring of the contact.

[simingma]

TBH, the Tactile/Quiet Pro are the only mech boards that I haven't tried out so far. I'll probably end up getting one. If the QP feels anything like a Topre when bottoming out, I may end up really liking it (god forbid).

It doesn't feel anything like MX Blues and Topre (yea, I convinced myself to get a used HHKB). ALPS I think they were shipped with most PC/Macs made from late 80s?

When I first typed on Matias, it brought me back in time 15-20 years (I was too young to remember the model of the first keyboard i used, not mine anyway).

Topre to me is also a very good, distinctive switch. I now keep a HHKB as the only compact layout in my collection. But Topre and MX/ALPS are like orange and apple, every one should try them both instead of guessing which is better. Topre feels nothing like what I imagined through looking at video/posts. Maybe you will end up keeping them both like me.

[daerid]

I love my Topres, and will never get rid of them. I ended up getting a TP3, and realized that, at least for me, Alps switches blow Cherry out of the water. I am now anxiously awaiting when I can purchase a Quiet Pro

[simingma]

I love my Topres, and will never get rid of them. I ended up getting a TP3, and realized that, at least for me, Alps switches blow Cherry out of the water. I am now anxiously awaiting when I can purchase a Quiet Pro

I feel exactly the same. I am waiting for resellers to carry the Laptop Pro which will fit nicely between my TP4 and HHKB.

BTW, I managed to get an Apple Extended Keyboard M0115 off ebay which is the reference keyboard that Matias used to engineer the Tactile Pros. So far I can tell there are some subtle differences: The TP requires slightly higher actuation force, and the TP ALPS makes the click sound while the AEK can be a total silence switch if is pressed very slowly; TP has better spacebar feel while the AEK is mushier. If AEK had a better spacebar I think it would be the best I have ever owned.

[yester64]

I love my Topres, and will never get rid of them. I ended up getting a TP3, and realized that, at least for me, Alps switches blow Cherry out of the water. I am now anxiously awaiting when I can purchase a Quiet Pro

That seems to be a nice other choice. I think i will check it out and maybe get one.

[BucklingSpring]

Just got home. Opened my Matias and wow.....this is the one for me!!!

Woot - another happy GHer!

Can't wait for my Mini QP to arrive.

[iri]

^ i am pretty sure it wasn't even shipped yet.

[quickcrx702]

oh i been yelling this at the top of my lungs for weeks.

that's why nobody listens. stop yelling, and we might

I don't care if you listen, long' as you heard me... that's all it takes. the 'seed of descent befalls you 

I would have to agree to a point.  I have pretty much all of the cherry switches, including a keyboard that I customized to ergo clears, a unicomp, a 45g uniform and 55g uniform Realforce keyboards.  I was super happy about the tactility of the 55g, it's what I'm typing on now, but I was rather underwhelmed with the 45g.  If you like buckling springs, and clears, I say get a 55g and you will be very happy.  It feels nothing like anything else out there.  If I had to describe the tactility, it feels almost like you are typing on bubble wrap, and popping a bubble every time... it's fawking great.

[daerid]

Except without the sharp snap when the bubble pops. But yes, a very accurate assessment.

[quickcrx702]

Except without the sharp snap when the bubble pops. But yes, a very accurate assessment.

LOL.  What I meant is that there is a sharp initial resistance, followed by your fingers free falling and bottoming out.  I think it is impossible not to bottom out a 55g.  Also, you seem to have a similar taste in keyboards, and due to your comments in this thread plus my impulsiveness, I pre ordered a quiet pro.  Loud keyboards make me angry for some reason so TP is out LOL.  Alps switches were actually some of the first mechanicals that I tried.  I don't remember the board, but they had some cheap ones at Fry's.  However at the time I don't think I really appreciated them enough, so I'm going to give them another try.  Also, I remember your posts some time ago asking about the Topre's... I'm glad you joined the dark side.