Ergonomical Switch?

[yester64]

I just was wondering if there is such a thing as an ergonomical switch for typing. I noticed that using brown switches can be quite hard to use for a while.
Since i am not a typist and rarely type big letters i wonder if it even makes a difference. But i am mostly curious.

[tp4tissue]

I just was wondering if there is such a thing as an ergonomical switch for typing. I noticed that using brown switches can be quite hard to use for a while.
Since i am not a typist and rarely type big letters i wonder if it even makes a difference. But i am mostly curious.

Explain, "type big letters"

[yester64]

Not figuratively just a lot of letters

[Lanx]

depends on what you want it for, currently we think the cherry brown is about as best as you can get for a mechanical in terms of form, even cheap rubber dome boards have lots of force from 70 to 90, heck a sissor switch could even be considered force heavy since all the resistance is centered in a tiny area.

[TotalChaos]

I just was wondering if there is such a thing as an ergonomical switch for typing. I noticed that using brown switches can be quite hard to use for a while.
Since i am not a typist and rarely type big letters i wonder if it even makes a difference. But i am mostly curious.

There is no ergonomical switch currently in production that I have ever heard of.  Some are more or less ergonomical than others.  I have tried a bunch of switches so far and so far the most ergonomical I have found is Cherry MX Red with padding installed to cushion the impact of crashing since the switch itself is entirely to short for the spring to do its job.

It is entirely possible that ergonomic switches were produced in the 1980s.  I am not sure.  The keyboard industry frequently moves backwards rather than forwards.

I would love to conduct tests on old 1980s keyboards but I gave them all away many years ago.  I had no idea the keyboard industry would go insane.

I have some ideas how to make an actual ergonomic switch.  But I assume that getting new switches built would cost a gazillion $$$ so I am probably just dreaming.

Come back and ask me again every 3 months and maybe I will have more results or new knowledge to share.

[daerid]

Welp, there's the 2nd person ever to make my ignore list here on GH.

[davkol]

I've read somewhere that Cherry MX Brown was designed for Kinesis as an ergonomic switch, but take it with a grain of salt, I can't provide any citation right now.

I don't believe in "one size fits all". Although, most people would probably agree that ergonomic switches should be low-force (possibly variable weight) with soft landing.

I'd look into Topre, Cherry MX Red and ergo clears.

[yester64]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.
All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them. But like i said, i was just curious.

[Findecanor]

I believe that a tactile, mechanical switch like Cherry MX Blue (with O-rings!) or Cherry MX Clear would be more ergonomic, since they give you feedback for when to stop pressing a key. Cherry MX Clear (unmodified!) also cushions the stroke after actuation.
The tactile point of a Cherry MX Brown diminishes too easily if you start typing fast or hard, making it practically linear, and linear switches can be tiring if you constantly try to hit past the tactile point and avoid pressing them to the bottom.

[iri]

if cherry brown hurts you, you may need landing pads or o'rings.

and while i agree that reds, topre and ergo clears are closest to "ergonomic switch", they are all fundamentally different in their "ergonomical" features. reds are very soft. topre has landing amortization. ergo clears give really good actuation feedback. and i think buckling spring deserves to be in this list, again because of feedback..

[davkol]

I believe that a tactile, mechanical switch like Cherry MX Blue (with O-rings!) or Cherry MX Clear would be more ergonomic, since they give you feedback for when to stop pressing a key. Cherry MX Clear (unmodified!) also cushions the stroke after actuation.

I actually think the peak should be after the actuation point. Maybe something like the Fujitsu Peerless. Or there should be much more key travel after actuation, so that fingers can slow down before bottoming out. Because when I apply enough force to get past the peak on blues, I bottom out anyway, even though it's quite soft with soft-landing pads. However, I've build muscle memory good enough to not bottom out on linear switches (on most occasions).

[fohat.digs]

Everyone is different. I love buckling springs because the tactile point is quite distinct. Other people have opposite opinions.

The other switch I truly love is the Monterey blue, which feels exquisite but is impossible to find in a decent keyboard.

My wife, a professional writer/editor, who types thousands of words a day, loves Apple keyboards with flat keys and minimal travel.

I hate her keyboards, and she hates mine.

And, by the way, I am a degreed professional in Industrial Design, and I have come to think of "human factors engineering" as a moving target, because we humans are all so strikingly different, both in our physical configuration as well as our feelings, that our "factors" must be equally diverse.

Ergonomic is what feels best to you.

[TotalChaos]

I believe that a tactile, mechanical switch like Cherry MX Blue (with O-rings!) or Cherry MX Clear would be more ergonomic, since they give you feedback for when to stop pressing a key. Cherry MX Clear (unmodified!) also cushions the stroke after actuation.

I actually think the peak should be after the actuation point.

Exactly!  I have been saying this for years.  *shakes ur hand* Please to meet u!

Maybe something like the Fujitsu Peerless.

I donno what that is.  Time to power up the Googletron 

Or there should be much more key travel after actuation, so that fingers can slow down before bottoming out.

Yes!  Exactly!  A spring is a wonderful shock absorber if it is long enough to do its job.  Cherry switches only allow a puny 4mm of travel and only 2mm(!) after actuation!   The resistance of the spring does not have time to build up high enough to stop you from crashing in only 2mm.

I have been wanting a switch with 8-12mm of travel since 1980s.

Then you could have a tactile pothole like Blues and Browns have and it would be 100% ok because the spring would stop you from crashing into the steel plate.  Everyone would be happy except the Carpal Tunnel Surgeons, Hospitals, Pharmacists, Doctors and Drug Companies!

Because when I apply enough force to get past the peak on blues, I bottom out anyway,

Lots of ppl say that.

Blues are antiergonomical.  In order to get over the hump to activate the switch you have realistically already put in enough force to smash your way to the bottom.   

[TotalChaos]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.

If you insist on using brown switches then install some 40A O-rings from WASDkeyboards.com and they will definitely help your situation.  Switching to red switches + O-rings will help even more.  If you are rich then you can help me build the ultimate switches for low pain typing.

All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them.

Heheheh u catch on fast.  )

The switches do have a purpose.  The purpose is to line the switch company's bank accounts with huge amounts of $$$.  This is why they mostly refuse to make better switches and instead just keep making random different switches while being very very careful to avoid making an ergonomical switch.

[Glod]

I think like others have said that what is ergonomic is what best fits you, if something is hurting you it you have an option to stop using it (unless you are being forced to use it) or change the way you type

I personally type like a jackhammer, and oddly enough heavier switches like MX White and even MX Black psychologically make me want to hammer them down with massive force, which of course over time makes my fingers hurt whereas lighter switches like the 45g topre, MX Reds, and MX Browns make me feel like i am handling something mroe delicate and should use less force.
 
If you have the time and money i would suggest trying out other switches, possibly linear switches like red or adding o-rings or landing pads to the brown switches

im basically repeating what everyone else said....

[davkol]

Or there should be much more key travel after actuation, so that fingers can slow down before bottoming out.

Yes!  Exactly!  A spring is a wonderful shock absorber if it is long enough to do its job.  Cherry switches only allow a puny 4mm of travel and only 2mm(!) after actuation!   The resistance of the spring does not have time to build up high enough to stop you from crashing in only 2mm.

Actually, I think it's more like what fohat.digs posted. It really depends on typing technique. When I first tried to type on blacks with OEM keycaps, without bottoming out, I experienced terrible fatigue.

[yester64]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.

If you insist on using brown switches then install some 40A O-rings from WASDkeyboards.com and they will definitely help your situation.  Switching to red switches + O-rings will help even more.  If you are rich then you can help me build the ultimate switches for low pain typing.

All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them.

Heheheh u catch on fast.  )

The switches do have a purpose.  The purpose is to line the switch company's bank accounts with huge amounts of $$$.  This is why they mostly refuse to make better switches and instead just keep making random different switches while being very very careful to avoid making an ergonomical switch.

I just came back from fry's and i was trying out some keyboard with red and black switches. I got to say that i like them. Could make out a real difference between them. Now i am thinking if i maybe get black switches in my keyboard. WASD doesn't carry red (nothing in the menu). Anyway, does it make sense to get them with damper too? And i am not sure what strength of a damper.

Did i mention that i use the blue right now? They are ok. Great to type and with the dampers i got they even fairly quiet. Still the clicking can be a little irritating but not to the point that i would through it out of the window. Nice typing.

[TotalChaos]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.

If you insist on using brown switches then install some 40A O-rings from WASDkeyboards.com and they will definitely help your situation.  Switching to red switches + O-rings will help even more.  If you are rich then you can help me build the ultimate switches for low pain typing.

All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them.

Heheheh u catch on fast.  )

The switches do have a purpose.  The purpose is to line the switch company's bank accounts with huge amounts of $$$.  This is why they mostly refuse to make better switches and instead just keep making random different switches while being very very careful to avoid making an ergonomical switch.

I just came back from fry's and i was trying out some keyboard with red and black switches. I got to say that i like them. Could make out a real difference between them. Now i am thinking if i maybe get black switches in my keyboard. WASD doesn't carry red (nothing in the menu).

They must be temporarily out.

Anyway, does it make sense to get them with damper too? And i am not sure what strength of a damper.

40a O-rings or die

[yester64]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.

If you insist on using brown switches then install some 40A O-rings from WASDkeyboards.com and they will definitely help your situation.  Switching to red switches + O-rings will help even more.  If you are rich then you can help me build the ultimate switches for low pain typing.

All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them.

Heheheh u catch on fast.  )

The switches do have a purpose.  The purpose is to line the switch company's bank accounts with huge amounts of $$$.  This is why they mostly refuse to make better switches and instead just keep making random different switches while being very very careful to avoid making an ergonomical switch.

I just came back from fry's and i was trying out some keyboard with red and black switches. I got to say that i like them. Could make out a real difference between them. Now i am thinking if i maybe get black switches in my keyboard. WASD doesn't carry red (nothing in the menu).

They must be temporarily out.

Anyway, does it make sense to get them with damper too? And i am not sure what strength of a damper.

40a O-rings or die

I will wait until V2 is available. Then either black or red and with rings.

[TheQsanity]

Reds.

[yester64]

any particular reason? I tried both and wasn't able to really feel a difference. But, to my defense, i did not play a long time with both keyboard. Was in a rush.

[TheQsanity]

Me?

[yester64]

Me?

Yes

[yester64]

I am not sure if i asked the right question. But i noticed that by using brown switches my fingertips started hurting if i type for a long time. So then i was wondering if there are switches that make your fingers not hurt.

If you insist on using brown switches then install some 40A O-rings from WASDkeyboards.com and they will definitely help your situation.  Switching to red switches + O-rings will help even more.  If you are rich then you can help me build the ultimate switches for low pain typing.

All the switches have a purpose but i am guessing ergonomics is not one of them.

Heheheh u catch on fast.  )

The switches do have a purpose.  The purpose is to line the switch company's bank accounts with huge amounts of $$$.  This is why they mostly refuse to make better switches and instead just keep making random different switches while being very very careful to avoid making an ergonomical switch.

Honestly, i choose the brown ones for no real reason. I am still not decided but i think linear switches may be better for me. Not sure. You mentioned somewhere Amiga keyboard and indeed. That would be a nice keyboard but its definitely not brown or blues. I think i am getting a keyboard fetish now.

[TheQsanity]

My first switches were brown, then blue, then red, then black. Blacks are to heavy. Reds are light and they don't hurt my fingers. Browns make my joints ache. Blues feel nicer than browns but they feel slower when typing on them. Most people don't like browns. Reds just feel very nice.

[fohat.digs]

I thought that most people DO like browns.

Reds do feel nice if you can utilize the lightness of their touch.

[Hyde]

I find it odd that brown hurt your fingers, in my opinion brown and red are the most comfortable switch to use.

BUT I think it also depends on what you mean by "hurting" your finger.  Because if your finger hurt from bottom out too much, get o-ring or try a stiffer switch (i.e. black) so you don't bottom out so much.

BUT if you find brown hurt you because it's too stiff, then try red.  If you find red too stiff then...... you sir have a very very girlie fingers I got nothing else to say lol jk.

[TotalChaos]

We don't know the source of his pain.  He might just need 40A O-rings.  Or he might just have arthritis or muscular dystrophy or mild tendonitis or anything else.  His nerves might just be mad at him for bashing his fingers into hard plastic all day every day.

[linuxid10t]

In yet another opinion, I'd say MX Blacks with O-rings.  They have enough force that you don't bottom out most of the time, and then if you do, you have the O-rings.

[hoggy]

'Change' is good.  I find swapping keyboards from day to day (lunchtime is good for a swap) really helps - especially if the switches and the layout are different.  It's a good reason to build up a stock of keyboards that no-one else will believe that you need...

[Findecanor]

I actually think the peak should be after the actuation point. Maybe something like the Fujitsu Peerless. Or there should be much more key travel after actuation, so that fingers can slow down before bottoming out.

That is how I feel that Cherry MX Clear work. The actuation point is in a dip in force. I don't bottom out if I write words fast, but I do bottom out quite often when I just press individual keys for symbols etc.

[yester64]

Well, i did not about the rings until i checked WASD keyboards. So that was a little learning process.

I might give a wrong impression that my fingers fall off if i type on brown switches. Its just that the front part of the finger starts to hurt. No thick skin.
 
And yes, i think you can never have to less keyboards around. You never know when you need one.

[TheQsanity]

I am still young, so i don't think I need to worry about it too much but you guys are making me want to pull out my browns again. already made me pull out my blues haha.

[sordna]

Audible feedback helps tremendously to avoid bottoming out. On a Kinesis Advantage LF, which has red switches and a piezo speaker making "click" sounds (you can turn it off if you prefer quiet), it is both smooth to type, and the click helps avoid bottom out, without introducing any friction/tactile point. I also have 40A o-rings from WASD keyboards as an additional precaution, so I find the overall setup very ergonomic.

[Lanx]

yea, i have relatively sensitive hearing so i even hear the activation point on browns(actually using ergo whites, so it's actually louder), but then i don't know if i hear the browns or i "feel it" and hear it.

[vivalarevolución]

Audible feedback helps tremendously to avoid bottoming out. On a Kinesis Advantage LF, which has red switches and a piezo speaker making "click" sounds (you can turn it off if you prefer quiet), it is both smooth to type, and the click helps avoid bottom out, without introducing any friction/tactile point. I also have 40A o-rings from WASD keyboards as an additional precaution, so I find the overall setup very ergonomic.

I have this exact same setup at home. More than anything, this setup has really lightened my typing and forced me to be more accurate to prevent accidental touches on other keys. If I switch to anything with more resistance, such as rubber domes and MX Blues, I type more accurately. We'll see how things are when my MX clears arrive and I throw those on another keyboard.

Not sure if I would get the Reds again. I prefer the tactile feedback.

[TotalChaos]

Audible feedback helps tremendously to avoid bottoming out. On a Kinesis Advantage LF, which has red switches and a piezo speaker making "click" sounds (you can turn it off if you prefer quiet), it is both smooth to type, and the click helps avoid bottom out, without introducing any friction/tactile point.

YES!  I want every keyboard to have that feature!!!!!!

I am really shocked that Kinesis is only keyboard I ever heard about to have a proper electronic actuation click.

If I ran a keyboard company all my keyboards would have such a feature with lots of options for the exact sound it makes!

[Saturn]

browns hard to use?

I wouldn't think that'd be the case, they're probably the closest cherry switch to a rubber dome in terms of feel.  I found them pretty easy to adjust to.

[Saturn]

Audible feedback helps tremendously to avoid bottoming out.

i always wonder just where this notion came from that bottoming out is something to be avoided

[sordna]

YES!  I want every keyboard to have that feature!!!!!!

I am really shocked that Kinesis is only keyboard I ever heard about to have a proper electronic actuation click.

I think it's a wonderful feature as well, and there's no drawback having it, since you can turn it on/off at will. The only other keyboard I know that has also this, is a Zenith vintage keyboard (with Green ALPS linear switches). You can hear the electronic click here, it sounds similar to the Kinesis, although on the Kinesis it's a bit lower in pitch.

[TotalChaos]

Audible feedback helps tremendously to avoid bottoming out.

i always wonder just where this notion came from that bottoming out is something to be avoided

Impacts are harmful to the human body.

Millions of ppl have hand problems due to impacts.

Some from typing

Some from mousing.

Some from texting on their phone with vibrate function enabled.  (Vibrations are just repetitive impacts)

Some from playing video games with vibrate function on.

Some from using a Jackhammer.

Some from hammering nails the oldskool way.


Keep impacting your nerves and they eventually get mad at you and revolt and cause you bad problems.

You were warned.

[Lanx]

yes bottoming out is just like seeing a jogger run to the doctor and go, "doctor doctor, i can't run anymore it hurts" doctor says "that's cuz you've pounded 1000000 miles into your bones, now you got not cartilage". DO NOT bottom out.

[Saturn]

Impacts are harmful to the human body.

Millions of ppl have hand problems due to impacts.

Some from typing

Some from mousing.

Some from texting on their phone with vibrate function enabled.  (Vibrations are just repetitive impacts)

Some from playing video games with vibrate function on.

Some from using a Jackhammer.

Some from hammering nails the oldskool way.


Keep impacting your nerves and they eventually get mad at you and revolt and cause you bad problems.

You were warned.

yes bottoming out is just like seeing a jogger run to the doctor and go, "doctor doctor, i can't run anymore it hurts" doctor says "that's cuz you've pounded 1000000 miles into your bones, now you got not cartilage". DO NOT bottom out.

yeeeeah this is the kind of conventional wisdom which gets passed around forums and becomes unpopular to disagree with, but unfortunately doesn't have a basis in fact.

Impacts are harmful to the human body if you try to absorb them with structures which aren't meant for absorbing impacts.  When your typing technique is correct, you can type as hard as you want (within reason) and it won't hurt you, because the impacts will be absorbed safely and harmlessly.  Just as you believe bottoming out is harmful, some people believe that typing on a stiff keyboard (say, cherry blacks) is harmful as well.  Note that pianists experience FAR stronger impacts at a much greater frequency, and are forced to exert far more force to play on the typical  grand piano than is necessary to type on the typical mechanical keyboard.  yet many concert pianists have life long careers with little to no physical difficulty.

Sure, many pianists do experience RSI.  But not all.  And if "impacts" or stiff keys truly were harmful to the human body, then every concert pianist in existence would have his career ruined by debilitating RSI.  And this certainly is not the case.

Just as there are many runners all over the world who run daily for years and years and never experience harm from it.

It's not how hard you type, it's the manner in which you do it.

It's the same sort of thing that you see leads people to be so confused as to why their wrists still hurt when they're using a wrist rest.  It's because they don't understand how the wrist is supposed to be used.  A rest won't change that.

[TotalChaos]

Are you telling me you personally know a professional pianist who played 500 notes per minute all day long every day until they were 70 years old and never got tendonitis or something worse?

[Lanx]

lol we have a whole generation of phased out secretaries (just the typists) who are walking around wearing roller blade wrist splints... most of those "specialists" don't even know how they got there.