Realforce...

[Rafen]

I have been eyeing this realforce for the last 2 years and I am thinking about pulling the trigger on it. The only question I have is does the rubber cup in the switch seem to wear down after a while like a normal rubber dome? Please only answer on this if you own a Topre board. Appreciate the help.

[tp4tissue]

rubber HAS a shelf-life whether you USE IT or NOT.... this is fact..

it has also been confirmed by Ripster, that the rubberdomes "harden" overtime, and increases the activation force by about 5grams

this is supposedly because the oil leaves the polymer

[tp4tissue]

Another factor that would have a great influence here is "bottoming out"

On standard rubber dome, because the switch only activates when you press it all the way down,, people often end up pressing their keys HARDER and HARDER to ensure the correct input..

this would put far greater strain on the rubber dome keys, than if the person "did not" bottom out..


Now, since the topre activates at 2mm, people wouldn't be motivated to put so much pressure on the rubber domes... thus lengthening the working life of the "topre" keys

Why do I bring this up...

It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...

the reason it MAY last longer is ONE due to the reason I've mentioned above... AND another very real possibility that people "having paid $300" for their beloved rubber dome,, tend to "BABY" the thing..

I have friends that bought their R32 and never pull out of 4th....

This,  "babying effect" would significantly reduce wear on the board,, but your typing experience is NOT at all the "raw" to the point, rather a "limited decaf" feel.

[BucklingSpring]

rubber HAS a shelf-life whether you USE IT or NOT.... this is fact..

Any idea what time frame we are talking here?

[jabar]

I think in a recent thread a 2006 Topre board showed slightly higher activation, so probably in 5-10+ years.

[Polymer]

I don't think it is possible to baby a topre key...You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...

So there isn't any extra force or less force when you're bottoming out..the rubber will go up and down..that is just how it is...

[khaangaaroo]

You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...

Not unless you have 30g domes I rarely bottom out on mine.
But on 45g, I bottom out even when I try my hardest not to.

[Rafen]

So basically it will wear down and probably faster if i use it for my daily driver? I dont really think the price tag is worth it now.

[khaangaaroo]

haha tp topre-blocks another one

[Germiphene]

lol gogo tp4tissue for the block!   

Look, the only way you'll know if you like it, is to try it.  Will the 5g activation make that big a difference, probably not if you you're not thinking about it.  Technically he's right about the wear, as it will wear a little faster then a cherry mechanical as there is a rubber component.  Think it's rated to 30 million strokes however, and MX switches are rated to 50 million.  You're paying the price point because of the feel, nothing else.  And nothing else feels like a topre, whether for good or bad.  It does NOT feel like a rubber dome, and it DOES NOT feel like a cherry switch. 

It will outlast your current computer for at least 3 upgrades, I would say, if not more.  How much are you spending on that?

[tp4tissue]

I don't think it is possible to baby a topre key...You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...

So there isn't any extra force or less force when you're bottoming out..the rubber will go up and down..that is just how it is...

No, I'm not talking about the regular "lightly" bottoming out

I'm talking about really DIGGING in when you're frustrated with a "regular" rubber dome key not activating...


It is unlikely that you will "mechanically" wear-out a topre keyboard from regular use + good technique...



Now as for the "harden-ing".. this happens within 2-3 years depending on the temperature variations in your office...



As for "shelf-life" of the rubber.. IF completely unused it's around 15 years from production date....



Whether or NOT it's "worth it" ... the cost isn't significant considering it'll last "at least 3-5 years".. so if you consider $300, that's $60 a year which is nothing...

I mean, compare that to what some people pay for their mobile internet service,  ) )  Suckers

[daerid]

It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...

I'd really like to know what you're basing this off of.

[tp4tissue]

It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...

I'd really like to know what you're basing this off of.

several dell quiet keys//compaq branded that are "very old" and feel like new.

[daerid]

I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.

I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.

The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this.

[Turbo Slaab]

I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.

I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.

The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this.

Someone should rip them all apart....for science!!!!

[tp4tissue]

I wouldn't call those standard rubber domes.

I think the difference is more in the quality of the rubber used.

The old Dell quietkeys are very highly regarded as far as rubber dome boards go. I would be more interested in comparing the actual rubber used between a Topre, those old Dell QuietKeys, and something like this.

Someone should rip them all apart....for science!!!!

they're very good and very yellow...

[durainello]

Imo, it kinda comparing a WRX vs a BMW. The money spent to fully mod the WRX is greater than buying a stock BMW.  )

[iri]

It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...

i have 20 years old rubber domes. they work fine.

It does NOT feel like a rubber dome

a rubber dome keyboard that doesn't feel like a rubber dome? strange. very strange.

[tp4tissue]

Imo, it kinda comparing a WRX vs a BMW. The money spent to fully mod the WRX is greater than buying a stock BMW.  )

ahh... yea.... kinda.. I'm not a fan of the newer bmws because they're significantly more costly to fix due to placements of the "electronic gizmos"

I think if anyone was to get a "tuner" bmw, they aught to go for an older diesel version...

[Rafen]

So basically if I buy a Realforce the rubber will harden but I wouldn't notice it? What I have been thinking is that if I don't buy one of those I could just buy a couple more cherry boards and I should be good on my collection.

[ValerieV]

Why haven't i ever heard about the rubber becoming harder to press over time before?  Maybe it's not noticeable to most people. I really love my HHKB but in 5 years or so they may come out with a wireless or even better keyboard for me. I have had the Real Force and it is a great keyboard but i think it is over priced just like the HHKB. But, if you can afford it buy it. I think you won't regret it. 

[Rafen]

Yeah most people who buy them love em. I just don't want to drop $250 on a "rubber dome" keyboard that is going to wear down in 5 years when I can spend half the price and get a cherry keyboard that will feel the same as day 1 as it does on day 3000.

[Dgsbllx]

I've switched to topre and I'm not going back. If you've been pondering it for over 2 years get on with it! 
In regards to it wearing down in 5 years, I haven't had the board anywhere near long enough to comment, but $250 for 5 years usage doesn't sound too shabby to me.

[Germiphene]

It is VERY unlikely that a TOPRE dome is any more durable than those found in standard rubberdome keyboard...

i have 20 years old rubber domes. they work fine.

It does NOT feel like a rubber dome

a rubber dome keyboard that doesn't feel like a rubber dome? strange. very strange.

The spring and quality of the construction make a big difference.  Have you used a topre switch?

[tp4tissue]

Yeah most people who buy them love em. I just don't want to drop $250 on a "rubber dome" keyboard that is going to wear down in 5 years when I can spend half the price and get a cherry keyboard that will feel the same as day 1 as it does on day 3000.

NO.. cherry loses about 5g of spring force over time. As opposed to topre which gains

[ShakeR]

You will bottom out..there is really no stopping it..the drop out in force is far too great for anyone to not bottom out regularly...You can try to not bottom out but it is a waste of time...

Not unless you have 30g domes I rarely bottom out on mine.
But on 45g, I bottom out even when I try my hardest not to.

The thought of 30g is nuts to me.  Can you activate them by blowing really hard?

I always found it surprising how, despite the drastically higher price tag, the Topre switches experience almost identical ratings to Cherry's. 
http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/mechanical_switches.php

It could just be a matter of perspective / level of expectations though.

[daerid]

I bottom out all the time on my Topres. But that's just because the soft landing is oh so sexy, and it's how you get that satisfying Topre "thock".

[tp4tissue]

I bottom out all the time on my Topres. But that's just because the soft landing is oh so sexy, and it's how you get that satisfying Topre "thock".

on that subject..

I believe the most "crisp" thock sound, is the kind you make from the tongue click sound thingie motion in mouth.  Does anyone know the proper term for this LOL

Looked it up,  I "think" it's just called clicks...  )

.....clicks are obstruents articulated with two closures (points of contact) in the mouth, one forward and one at the back. The pocket of air enclosed between is rarefied by a sucking action of the tongue (in technical terminology, clicks have a lingual ingressive airstream mechanism). The forward closure is then released, producing what may be the loudest consonants in the language.....

.....wiki

[blackrim]

I find the constant blocking of topre buying funny.

Nevertheless, on ageing, I am sure there are people here that are using the same keyboard as their main driver for more than 10 years. I don't mean you bought an old keyboard, I mean you have been using it constantly for ten years as your main board. However, chances are, the reason you are here is because you like to try out new and different boards, modify boards, and talk about it. So, honestly, ageing or not, 5g + or -, noticeable or not, a realforce is going to last for 10 years pretty well unchanged even if you use it all the time. And in that time, you are going to buy 20 more keyboards.

To each their own and the discussion back and forth about rubber domes and topres has gone on and on on these boards. Some people love 'em and some don't. Some people see it as their mission to let other people know that topre is technically a rubber dome, etc etc. But at the very least, readers should be aware that some people think they're worth it.

I have and type on topres and cherries. They get along so well together, you would never guess how much trouble the topre causes on these boards.

[khaangaaroo]

About switches getting lighter or stiffer over time... your fingers will adapt to the change in weight faster than the switches can change weight.
I also have both 30g and 35g rated domes in the same board, and I can't tell the difference unless I simultaneously press them with the same finger on each hand multiple times. Even then, it's still hard to tell.

[ValerieV]

To each their own and the discussion back and forth about rubber domes and topres has gone on and on on these boards. Some people love 'em and some don't. Some people see it as their mission to let other people know that topre is technically a rubber dome, etc etc. But at the very least, readers should be aware that some people think they're worth it.

I have and type on topres and cherries. They get along so well together, you would never guess how much trouble the topre causes on these boards.
[/quote]

I think the problem is that the topre keyboards are so expensive. If they cost what a cherry keyboard does i don't think people would be so strong to defend or criticize it. I have a HHKB and i sometimes love it and other times want to sell it. I can't even make up my mind. 

[Binge]

Ahhh another Realforce thread reaches multiple pages.

Tried one once.  Got sick of trying it shorty after receiving it.  Totally not worth the $$$ imho.

[lazerpointer]

I think Topre is like the Mercedes Benz of keyboards. If you want the most "comfortable" experience, in a highly arguable technical sense, Topre is it. I personally prefer Cherry browns after about 2 years of constantly trying new switches, but I still haven't tried Topre yet.

I know what Topre is like without having tried one. I know how the switch works. That being said, I am perfectly happy with the way Cherry Browns work. Sure it would be nice if the bottom-out experience was a rubber cup with a spring in it, but really... is it necessary? THAT is the question. For some, completely justifiable. For people like me, not so much.

[daerid]

None of this is "necessary". We could all get by with a $5 bargain bin board.

However, to some, $75 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $150 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for a board is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for the right keyboard is perfectly justifiable.

These are also the people who will spend upwards of $1,000 on a chair. It's because when your livelihood depends on sitting in a chair and typing on a keyboard, you want to make sure that you're sitting in the best chair you can buy for your body, and your keyboard is giving you the best typing experience you can get.

[tp4tissue]

None of this is "necessary". We could all get by with a $5 bargain bin board.

However, to some, $75 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $150 for a keyboard is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for a board is ridiculous, and to those, $300 for the right keyboard is perfectly justifiable.

These are also the people who will spend upwards of $1,000 on a chair. It's because when your livelihood depends on sitting in a chair and typing on a keyboard, you want to make sure that you're sitting in the best chair you can buy for your body, and your keyboard is giving you the best typing experience you can get.

improvement up until a certain point/ price.... chair is better in that respect than keyboard, because around $100 is the most you can do, everything past that is meh....

[Rafen]

I went to go get a realforce from elitekeyboards and in the checkout it said it wasnt available at this time...maybe it wasnt meant to be.

[durainello]

$300 for a Topre is expensive but spending the same amount on LZ, KMAC etc they're not expensive.  )

[blackrim]

The discussion of cost is also ignoring the fact that many people here buy keycaps that differ only in looks. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Seems like everytime people talk about keycap design though you don't have as many people going on the board saying that it is overpriced and no different and you don't need it. Obviously those aren't "necessary" either.

I just feel bad that topre has so violated some people. It seems to have made some people care quite a lot about other people's preferences. So be it.

[ValerieV]

I do love my HHKB and i won't be selling it. It's just that there are times when i work on it and i think about the cost. However, the quality is exceptional and the USB ports are wonderful as well as the overall design. This is a great keyboard but i can see why some people don't like it. I would love them to come up with a Bluetooth model and maybe find space for the arrow keys. 

[daerid]

improvement up until a certain point/ price.... chair is better in that respect than keyboard, because around $100 is the most you can do, everything past that is meh....

You would fall into one of those ranges that I mentioned, proving my point.

[fuzzybaffy]

I've tried Filco's and the CM Storm keyboards, but none measure up to my Topre in terms of build quality. Nowhere near it.

People may argue they're similar to regular old rubber domes, but that belies the fact that the build quality of Topre boards are exceptional. I might as well go as far to say that they are almost 1.5 to 2.0 better built than Filco boards. But, other people may disagree.

It's the same as comparing a Camry vs. a Ferrari. They both have engines and four wheels, so they are both classified as "cars", correct? But, they are still very different in other levels. That's the same as a typical rubber dome board vs. a Topre, IMO. Sure, the Topre has rubber, just like other cheap rubber dome boards, but there are other things that are exception with the Topre. Just like the Ferrari is over the Camry. IMO.

[tp4tissue]

I've tried Filco's and the CM Storm keyboards, but none measure up to my Topre in terms of build quality. Nowhere near it.

People may argue they're similar to regular old rubber domes, but that belies the fact that the build quality of Topre boards are exceptional. I might as well go as far to say that they are almost 1.5 to 2.0 better built than Filco boards. But, other people may disagree.

It's the same as comparing a Camry vs. a Ferrari. They both have engines and four wheels, so they are both classified as "cars", correct? But, they are still very different in other levels. That's the same as a typical rubber dome board vs. a Topre, IMO. Sure, the Topre has rubber, just like other cheap rubber dome boards, but there are other things that are exception with the Topre. Just like the Ferrari is over the Camry. IMO.

LOL, this is the worst thing you can say around here... quality eh?  you mean the shaky tops and loose caps?

[fuzzybaffy]

That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling. 

Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.

[daerid]

Having owned lots of cherry boards as well, of varying degrees of quality, I'm going to agree with fuzzy there.

I honestly think tp is just trying to get a rise out of people more than anything.

[tp4tissue]

That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling. 

Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.

I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.

Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes...   It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.


From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...

"i'm not saying it's not.."  But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL

[fuzzybaffy]

That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling. 

Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.

I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.

Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes...   It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.


From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...

"i'm not saying it's not.."  But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL

Are you sure about that? It was you who started the anti-Topre rants. You have a history of bashing Topre products.

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.

[tp4tissue]

That, again, belies all the other positives of Topre build quality. You mention just a couple of things, which admittedly, are problems, as if they represent the quality of Topre boards as a whole, but, again, that doesn't represent everything about Topre boards. Given all this misinformation, your posts constitute nothing less than trolling. 

Topre keycaps are some of the best in the business, its switches are of much higher quality (smoother, more smooth than Cherry MX switches), and it has a much heavier plating than Filco boards.

I don't know what your point is.. You idolize topre as the highest quality production, however i "just" disproved your obsession.

Is topre of good quality, yes, even great, also yes...   It is however very far from perfect akin to all mass produced keyboards.


From the way you write, it seems you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else that Topre is "worth buying"...

"i'm not saying it's not.."  But you gotta let go of your insecurities.. LOL

Are you sure about that? It was you who started the anti-Topre rants. You have a history of bashing Topre products.

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.

Absolutely untrue.. I've never bashed topre... if you are, or have been hurt by what i've said, then it was by your choice in protection of your ego..

I've only ever spoke against putting topre on a pedestal as many owners here have...

I was convinced of their "godly" status soon after joining the forums, only later to learn that they are very far from what people claim.

Good, yes.. <-- you see, not bashing...   

However they're just quite plainly not $300 great.

[fuzzybaffy]

Ok, okay.

Well, I think they're $300 great. Because, again, the build quality of their boards are exceptional. Amazing switches, one of the best quality keycaps, and a super-super sturdy build (much more sturdy than Filco boards). Makes it worth the price, IMO.

[tp4tissue]

Ok, okay.

Well, I think they're $300 great. Because, again, the build quality of their boards are exceptional. Amazing switches, one of the best quality keycaps, and a super-super sturdy build (much more sturdy than Filco boards). Makes it worth the price, IMO.

I can accept your above descriptions... It is more down to earth than your Camry to Ferrari analogy.

Please refrain from using the camry to ferrari comparison in the future, as to avoid giving prospective buyers the wrong idea...

Again, I am just making sure people don't go into the topre scene based on "emotions" instigated by wild swings of the written word.

IF a filco WAS a Corolla ....

Then Topre would be a Camry...


If you MUST throw up a ferrari..

Lets say,  Topre guts one of those $500 aluminum cases...

Even then I think it's at best a BMW 5 series...


Ferrari would need something with diamonds.

[fuzzybaffy]

No, I'll say whatever I want. Why should I change what I write to satisfy you?