Yet another CM QFR with no clicking keys - report yours :-)

[BucklingSpring]

A nice CM QFR with many "no click" keys just arrived today.

I read about MX Blue... Mine is with MX Green. 6 Keys not clicking.

It has a nice QC - PASSED sticker under.

I guess making sure the MX Blue or MX Green switches are clicking is not on their check list.

Big disappointment!

Feel free to report your QFR incident

[tp4tissue]

There is probably something going on with Cherry, they're equipment is being worn down due to the new Mechanical Boom.

[tp4tissue]

Costar, and CM has nothing to do with the switches Clicking.

[BucklingSpring]

There is probably something going on with Cherry, they're equipment is being worn down due to the new Mechanical Boom.

Maybe - Now I'm starting to see a value in the Razer marketing crap about hand picking all Cherry switches that are going in their keyboards.

[FoxWolf1]

Costar, and CM has nothing to do with the switches Clicking.

You'd think that, given the possibility of defective switches, they'd test them, either before or after putting them into a keyboard.

[alaricljs]

QA for finished keyboards is likely to be "do all the switches cause the proper response on a computer" and fit and finish.  Nothing more.

[tp4tissue]

Costar, and CM has nothing to do with the switches Clicking.

You'd think that, given the possibility of defective switches, they'd test them, either before or after putting them into a keyboard.

You would not be able to test this without adding a HUGE new process machinery to your production chain.. and since it has to do with sound.. The keyboard must enter an Isolated chamber...  IN A FACTORY of LOUD MACHINES.....

If you want to pay $300 per keyboard, I'm sure they can get it checked for you, OR you could just RMA..

[BucklingSpring]

QA for finished keyboards is likely to be "do all the switches cause the proper response on a computer" and fit and finish.  Nothing more.

Done by a bunch of def kids in a very loud factory.

[BucklingSpring]

If you want to pay $300 per keyboard, I'm sure they can get it checked for you, OR you could just RMA..

Indeed - I requested in my RMA to open the replacement keyboard box and verify that all the key clicks before shipping it back to me.

[tp4tissue]

QA for finished keyboards is likely to be "do all the switches cause the proper response on a computer" and fit and finish.  Nothing more.

Done by a bunch of def kids in a very loud factory.

You should "at least" take a small step done off your high chair to appreciate what 3rd world children do for you. 

[khaangaaroo]

They should collect all the non-clicky blues a make a limited edition silent blue board.

[rowdy]

They should collect all the non-clicky blues a make a limited edition silent blue board.

 )

[BucklingSpring]

They should collect all the non-clicky blues a make a limited edition silent blue board.

 )

I also thought about that kind of joke but didn't write it. Now reading your's I'll share mine.
The guy who invented the Brown and the Clear out of defective clicky switches got a big promotion at Cherry.

[BucklingSpring]

You should "at least" take a small step done off your high chair to appreciate what 3rd world children do for you. 

That's the scary part - Apparently they do pretty much everything.

[BucklingSpring]

Couldn't resist from taking a picture of the box before returning it to its maker

 ) )

[khaangaaroo]

Does anyone know what is causing the clicker to stop clicking? I want to know because I'm seriously considering silencing the click in a spare QFR to see what it would be like.

[tp4tissue]

Does anyone know what is causing the clicker to stop clicking? I want to know because I'm seriously considering silencing the click in a spare QFR to see what it would be like.

the low leaf tension. what a noob question 

picture at the bottom of this thread

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39678.0

[BucklingSpring]

Does anyone know what is causing the clicker to stop clicking? I want to know because I'm seriously considering silencing the click in a spare QFR to see what it would be like.

Follow the link and look at the bottom with all the animated pictures.
on the blue MX the White part moves - on the others it doesn't... I suspect that's where the click comes from...

http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/?page_id=1458

[Lu_e]

There is probably something going on with Cherry, they're equipment is being worn down due to the new Mechanical Boom.

Maybe - Now I'm starting to see a value in the Razer marketing crap about hand picking all Cherry switches that are going in their keyboards.

...which is kinda BS since my BWU has a couple blues with little to no click

[TAdams]

Got a cm trigger with greens that have/had no clicky. Most were the same switches that also had stabilizers on them. Also had a few keys that had a muted click.

[rootwyrm]

Cooler Master claims they improved QA/QC after the huge run of defects. It's become painfully apparent that the exact opposite is true. Amazon has reported a massive spike in defective returns, including on a brand new shipment on a batch supposedly manufactured under the 'improved' QA procedures.

The only reasonable conclusion is that QA/QC has in fact, declined substantially. And it is not a small number of switches which are defective, nor are these defects that should be passing QA in any form or fashion. SIX dud switches with no tactility. The only way something like that gets past QC is if there is no functional test QC.

Which would appear to be the case given the reviews and returns going on with Amazon orders. I am beyond livid about this, because I referred and sold a fair number of QFR's when they were on sale at $55. I have been going back and forth with Amazon about this, because they're telling me their return rate is through the roof. To the extent where they are anticipating that sales will be stopped on the entire January shipment.

[Turkishrambo]

my qfr with greens had one that seemed slighlty less clicky, but it doesnt effect the feel or anything.

Not worth returning or being whiney over

[khaangaaroo]

the low leaf tension. what a noob question 

picture at the bottom of this thread

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39678.0

What a noob drawing.

Thanks for the explanation man

[BucklingSpring]

my qfr with greens had one that seemed slighlty less clicky, but it doesnt effect the feel or anything.
Not worth returning or being whiney over

This is bringing to my next complaint. Next to none of the switches has the same sound. I bet some one with a microphone and a sound sample for each key can tell exactly what I'm typing.

Anyway... This thing is returning to where it comes from and I just hope the vendor will do what I ask... ie Confirm before shipping that the replacement keyboard works and sounds like it is supposed to.

[tp4tissue]

my qfr with greens had one that seemed slighlty less clicky, but it doesnt effect the feel or anything.
Not worth returning or being whiney over

This is bringing to my next complaint. Next to none of the switches has the same sound. I bet some one with a microphone and a sound sample for each key can tell exactly what I'm typing.

Anyway... This thing is returning to where it comes from and I just hope the vendor will do what I ask... ie Confirm before shipping that the replacement keyboard works and sounds like it is supposed to.

Humans have ecolocation designed into our sound system....  It's actually very precise...

Ontop of that, when you press two "different switches" and attempt to "hear a difference"  You mind will automatically assign separate values to what you hear.. EVEN if there was absolutely no difference....  This tagging may mislead..

[schizrade]

Just send that Green to me for further testing and diagnosis.

[tp4tissue]

Just send that Green to me for further testing and diagnosis.

why would he do that?? he can get it replaced through cm rma??

Are you some kinda hobo, pan handling on the internet?

[ValerieV]

Has Filco cherry mx blues ever had this problem? I haven't noticed it with mine but the DAS, and Quick Fire have lost their clicks or never had them to begin with.

[ishumprod]

hey boys, is the QFR the right way to go if i want a TKL/60% board while staying cheap ?

cause i see here that there are still problems and stuff

[deltr]

Wow man! I suddenly feel thankful that my QFR is perfect xD

But really, that sucks.

[ValerieV]

I tossed mine out because their customer support and keyboard sucked! CM keyboards are cheap because they are made cheap. 

[elitekeyboards]

Has Filco cherry mx blues ever had this problem? I haven't noticed it with mine but the DAS, and Quick Fire have lost their clicks or never had them to begin with.

Yes, before mechanical keyboards were cool Diatec didn't want to sell Blue switches for this reason. However, geekhackers voted, and we pressed Diatec:) Majestouch Tenkeyless boards with Blues were introduced to the US first mid-2009, then back in Asia about half a year later. In our time carrying them, they never really were consistent about making sure the switches clicked; they commented that Cherry does not guarantee that Blue switches click, only that they actuate.

Customers demand it though, so it has to be done, but the problem is two-fold: paying for the extra testing procedure...and making sure it gets done. It's not always easy to hear the click in a buzzing factory setting...

[mkawa]

it should also be noted that every blue switch that actuates must be making some sort of noise, but brand new switches may make a much softer noise due to the mexican jumping bean mechanism being tighter and yielding less movement. one way to accelerate the break-in process is to take the keycaps off offending switches and actuating them forcefully with a finger repeatedly for a few minutes.

basically, as long as a blue or green switch actuates, it will eventually make noise, but it may need to be broken in before it makes a maximal or "normal" amount of noise for that switch type.

the entire top row being dead though is almost certainly just a bad pcb and should be RMAd

[rootwyrm]

it should also be noted that every blue switch that actuates must be making some sort of noise, but brand new switches may make a much softer noise due to the mexican jumping bean mechanism being tighter and yielding less movement. one way to accelerate the break-in process is to take the keycaps off offending switches and actuating them forcefully with a finger repeatedly for a few minutes.

basically, as long as a blue or green switch actuates, it will eventually make noise, but it may need to be broken in before it makes a maximal or "normal" amount of noise for that switch type.

Actually, mkawa, this is absolutely false. There's multiple failure modes for the MX Blue switch, and the fact is that you can have a blue that makes absolutely no noise. Yes, a broken MX Blue can in fact fail into operating identically to a linear switch. I had two keys on the first faulty QFR that were literally "thud" keys - straight up MX Black operation. No click at all, no bump, no nothing. Just thud. And they registered. I have the same going on with this keyboard as well, but slightly different - zero noise, but bump present.

So no, an MX Blue is not guaranteed to make some sort of noise. A properly working MX Blue will, yes. But they will fail in fashions that result in the switch being pretty much identical to an MX Black in feel. New MX Black, not old MX Black - though the one was far closer to Red. Far, far too light.

But as I said; what's concerning to me is the fact that this appears to be a genuinely new problem. Previous batches simply did not have the problem on anywhere near this scale. Sure, a tiny handful of keyboards slipped through with non-clicking switches as a result of being missed in QC or having debris enter post-QC. These things do happen in manufacturing, even when you're watching like a hawk. (And believe me, it can really suck when they do.)

I also can't imagine that Costar and Cooler Master haven't demanded Cherry perform preliminary QC 'click' tests on the switches. Let's do an exercise! CM Storm QFR is 87 keys times 1000 units times 5 switch models is 435,000 switches a batch. (Well okay, maybe it's 200 Greens. But you get the idea.) Plus QFR TK at 94 keys times 1000 units times 4 switch models is another 376,000. In other words, we're talking about a customer that's doing well over $1.2M in business a quarter. Especially on the Greens, since they negotiated an exclusivity deal. That's enough business to force Cherry / ZF Electronics to do that.
That doesn't mean switches won't arrive defective - shipping damage, packing debris, small percentage being missed in QC, and so on. But it greatly reduces the number. And click testing of the switch is something that can definitely be automated as part of manufacturing. No click switches have different tactility than clicking switches.

[BucklingSpring]

Response from the vendor

"Hello BucklingSpring,

        We received a return request from you regarding the Order # -----------, as you mentioned Many keys not clicking when pressed F6-F9-I-V-T-M that mean those keys are not working at all? We will advise you to contact manufacturer support at: 1-888-624-5099 and if they says unit is defective simply obtain a case number so that we can replace the unit for you quickly. Thank you
"
ARGH!!!! My Reply

Oh you are not making me happy with this "call the manufacturer" response... I don't need Cooler Master  to tell if my Keyboard is wrong... Speaking Of Cooler Master. I just called them too... They don't have a ticketing System and they don't provide Case Number... So you really made me waste my time on this one.
Jeremy at Cooler Master said ... Give them 1234.... By the way, his extension is 142 at 1-888-624-5099
 
But I got an even better reference for you. I went to Cherry Corp directly. The manufacturer who is making the switches Cooler Master is using in their keyboards.
Feel free to read below what Cherry Corp has to say about non clicky switches.
My spanking new keyboard has either defective or worn out switches...
 
Pick the one you like... Please send me the RMA information.
 
Regards,
 

From: <Keyboard.Support@zf.com>
To: [me], <Cathy.Bergin@zf.com>
Subject: RE: Non clicking MX Green or MX Blue
Date sent: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 14:12:35 +0000
> Hi,
>
> It could be defective but it could also be worn out.
>
>
> Kind Regards/Mit freundlichem Gruss,
> Ed Ferraton
> Cherry Senior CID Technical Services Specialist
> ZF Electronic Systems Pleasant Prairie, LLC
> 11200 88th Avenue, Pleasant Prairie/ WI 53158 / USA
> Phone/Telefon +1 262-942-6393, Fax/Telefax +1 262-942-6566
> ed.ferraton@zf.com
> www.CHERRYcorp.com
> Manufacturer of CHERRY products
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Me
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 8:41 PM
> To: Keyboard Support; Bergin Cathy PPR ZFE
> Subject: Non clicking MX Green or MX Blue
>
> Hi there,
>
> Do you consider a non clicky MX Green or MX Blue switch as
> defective?
>
> Thank you,
>


Subject: RE: Non clicking MX Green or MX Blue
Date sent: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 14:12:35 +0000

[CM-Rajiv]

Hi everyone,

If you are experiencing an issue, please PM me. I will have your claim expedited and we will have our CSR team personally test your keyboard before shipping it back to you.

Contrary to belief, we have sold an very high number of QFRs in recent weeks and the defective rate is still very low, but we don't want these few bad experiences to de-value our brand. We really love this community and don't want you guys to feel jaded to our product.

Thanks a lot and sorry for any inconvenience - we are looking into every avenue on how to avoid these problems and will provide updates as they come!

[BucklingSpring]

(...) Actually, mkawa, this is absolutely false. (...)

Very nice post (the whole thing) ... Thank you for sharing.

[BucklingSpring]

one way to accelerate the break-in process is to take the keycaps off offending switches and actuating them forcefully with a finger repeatedly for a few minutes.

Although maybe not true... It doesn't cost much to try this.

EDIT: I got two things out of this experiment -
A big blister on the finger tip 
And a switch that is starting to click!

[BucklingSpring]

Hi everyone,

If you are experiencing an issue, please PM me. I will have your claim expedited and we will have our CSR team personally test your keyboard before shipping it back to you.

Contrary to belief, we have sold an very high number of QFRs in recent weeks and the defective rate is still very low, but we don't want these few bad experiences to de-value our brand. We really love this community and don't want you guys to feel jaded to our product.

Thanks a lot and sorry for any inconvenience - we are looking into every avenue on how to avoid these problems and will provide updates as they come!

Well that makes me feel better. Really - Thank you for your live feedback.
When I asked Jeremy (he was very nice btw) if the replacement keyboard can be manually tested before shipping. He explained to me how difficult that could be.

So I'm PMing you right now!

Thank you for monitoring GH ;-)

[ComradeSniper]

They should collect all the non-clicky blues a make a limited edition silent blue board.

Yeah, this could be a new linear switch: Cherry MX Silent Blues! 

[IvanIvanovich]

There are a few reason for clicky switch to not be clicking, soft leaf, burr on stem catching the click mechanism. The more of something mass produced the defect rate increases. There is not a higher rate of defects per se, but a higher percentage of those that will receive a defect due to increased amount. It's not much to be alarmed with. Also you can't blame a keyboard assembler using 3rd party switch to be responsible for that component exactly. Can happen just the same with any other brand but Cherry themselves who you can blame since they are first party in that case.
I like blues, greens and whites quite a lot, but I also admit that in a technical sense they are most prone to failure and odd behavior of all the MX variants due to the extra piece introduced into the switch mechanism. More parts, higher failure chance.

[tauburn]

i had a filco with mostly unclicky keys. i now have a qfr with greens. most are unclicky. bought from a user on here. i didn't say anything to him because i figure at this point properly functioning clicking cherry switches dont exist.

[rootwyrm]

Hi everyone,

If you are experiencing an issue, please PM me. I will have your claim expedited and we will have our CSR team personally test your keyboard before shipping it back to you.

Contrary to belief, we have sold an very high number of QFRs in recent weeks and the defective rate is still very low, but we don't want these few bad experiences to de-value our brand. We really love this community and don't want you guys to feel jaded to our product.

Thanks a lot and sorry for any inconvenience - we are looking into every avenue on how to avoid these problems and will provide updates as they come!

Thanks, Rajiv. I know there's been a high number of sales. I poked Amazon with my "I sell a lot of stuff" stick the other day, so they should hopefully be in touch with your folks shortly. They're consistently telling me that they're observing a very very high return rate on their current shipment (delivered around January 30) and I know of 5 returns + 8 exchanges directly - though not the exact reasons. So there's definitely something off specific to there.

Is it possible that Amazon managed to get one of the defect batches from the Nov-Dec timeframe, and that's what's going on there? I can't imagine it's a handling/shipping issue; all of mine have arrived in retail box and well packed as usual.

[BucklingSpring]

i had a filco with mostly unclicky keys. i now have a qfr with greens. most are unclicky. bought from a user on here. i didn't say anything to him because i figure at this point properly functioning clicking cherry switches dont exist.

That's funny.

I tawt I taw a Clicky Green creepin' up on me
I did! I taw a Clicky Green as plain as it could be!

[tauburn]

i had a filco with mostly unclicky keys. i now have a qfr with greens. most are unclicky. bought from a user on here. i didn't say anything to him because i figure at this point properly functioning clicking cherry switches dont exist.

That's funny.

I tawt I taw a Clicky Green creepin' up on me
I did! I taw a Clicky Green as plain as it could be!

i don't know what this is supposed to mean

[ValerieV]

Tweetie bird!

[rknize]

Blues/greens won't click for a few reasons, as many have stated.  While investigating what makes white switches different, I did some experiments with blues (swapping sliders with whites and so forth).

The tactility comes from the slider being flung down the stem faster than the stem is coming down into the switch body.  The click comes when the tab on the stem hits the end of the groove on the slider.  Whites are different partly because Cherry puts a very small dab of grease into this groove, dampening its movement and reducing the sound of the click.  The amount of grease required is very touchy and the consistency is not great.  TP4's claim that the problem is the leaf spring may or may not be correct.  However it makes sense that increasing the tension improves a balky switch, as it will push the slider down harder once it starts moving.

If a blue/green feels linear, it's likely because the slider is seized to the stem or hardly moving at all.  If it's a new switch it is a defect.  Probably a burr or something.  If it's an old switch, it is most often caused by debris getting in there and jamming the little tabs that guide the slider.  That's where the compressed air trick comes from.

If the switch is tactile but not clicky, it's because the slider it not making it to the end of it's movement.  Stopping just short completely silences the click.  Slowing down before the end muffles it.  It's actually quite delicate and I am not surprised at all that the quality is all over the place.  Again, a new switch exhibiting this is probably a manufacturing defect or contamination during assembly.  An old switch is likely foreign debris/dust.

You can blame CM for not catching it, the real defect is likely coming from Cherry.

[tauburn]

Blues/greens won't click for a few reasons, as many have stated.  While investigating what makes white switches different, I did some experiments with blues (swapping sliders with whites and so forth).

The tactility comes from the slider being flung down the stem faster than the stem is coming down into the switch body.  The click comes when the tab on the stem hits the end of the groove on the slider.  Whites are different partly because Cherry puts a very small dab of grease into this groove, dampening its movement and reducing the sound of the click.  The amount of grease required is very touchy and the consistency is not great.  TP4's claim that the problem is the leaf spring may or may not be correct.  However it makes sense that increasing the tension improves a balky switch, as it will push the slider down harder once it starts moving.

If a blue/green feels linear, it's likely because the slider is seized to the stem or hardly moving at all.  If it's a new switch it is a defect.  Probably a burr or something.  If it's an old switch, it is most often caused by debris getting in there and jamming the little tabs that guide the slider.  That's where the compressed air trick comes from.

If the switch is tactile but not clicky, it's because the slider it not making it to the end of it's movement.  Stopping just short completely silences the click.  Slowing down before the end muffles it.  It's actually quite delicate and I am not surprised at all that the quality is all over the place.  Again, a new switch exhibiting this is probably a manufacturing defect or contamination during assembly.  An old switch is likely foreign debris/dust.

You can blame CM for not catching it, the real defect is likely coming from Cherry.

The human race has developed nano circuitry. Mechanical switches are not too complicated to perfect.

[BucklingSpring]

The human race has developed nano circuitry. Mechanical switches are not too complicated to perfect.

When I told my parents I developed carpal tunnel syndrome. My dad said he always knew I was going to be a scientist.

[rknize]

The human race has developed nano circuitry. Mechanical switches are not too complicated to perfect.

Indeed...but this isn't the space program.    It's a plastic switch made by the millions as efficiently as possible.