Author Topic: Best Ergonomic Keyboard and key layout for disabled programmer with weak fingers (Read 27341 times)

Rythh · « **on:** Sat, 23 February 2013, 23:50:07 »

Hey everyone, this is my first post on this forum and it is only after extensive research and posting on various other forums. I just need more help because of how important this issue is.

I have a degenerative muscle disease, and as a result the muscles in my fingers and hands are beginning to get rather weak. This issue is only compounded by my love of coding, and is actually worrying me a bit since I am beginning to get muscle fatigue within an hour or two of starting to program, each and every day. My issues are not the typical issues of RSI sufferers and other ergonomic lovers, so I really need some advice, because with my disease the more I use my muscle the faster I lose it (doesn't that just suck?). I have never shopped for or owned an ergonomic keyboard before, and I am not sure what EXACTLY causes my fatigue in my fingers, whether it is positioning, actuation force, key layout, or a combination of all 3.

All I know for a fact is that I truly need a low actuation force for my keys. My pinkys, especially, take a huge beating due to the constant use of modifier keys while programming (shift, ctrl, enter). After a good day of coding, my pinky fingers are pretty much unusable. Therefore, I would love some advice on the difference between Cherry Reds and Cherry Browns. As both keys have the same actuation force, does one produce more fatigue than the other? I think the key type I choose is probably the most important aspect of my keyboard hunt, so should I be okay with both Browns and Reds?

However, I also cannot spend a lot of money, because I just don't have it (I honestly wish I could spend 1k on a datahand or the like, but I simply can't). Therefore, it seems my only options are the Kinesis Advantage, the TrulyErgonomic, or perhaps a Maltron (though that would be pushing the very limits of my budget, so it would really need to have noticeable benefits over the other boards). I also know that the QWERTY layout is at least part of the problem (designing a layout that requires constant stretching of the fingers is just not good for weak fingers). Are there any programmers out there specifically that could offer insight into a good layout to alleviate some of my issues?

I wish I could try out a bunch of different ergonomic boards to truly find what would best fend off my disease, but the best I can get to that is asking a bunch of experienced users of these boards what they think. I know I have a specific issue that most users won't have, so I would love some feedback from anyone with weak fingers like myself, but any and all advice is seriously appreciated. Thanks again guys.

thegnu · « **Reply #1 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:20:00 »

i haven't tried too many ergo keyboards, because of the learning curve and expense. the best thing that worked for me (with just regular RSI's) was mechanical switches on a regular tenkeyless keyboard. also, posture and being really mindful is important. obviously, my situation is different.

but, there's a filco tenkeyless being sold in classifieds right now with cherry reds (45g actuation, linear), and it's apparently annoyingly light touch to a lot of people:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40439.msg802222#msg802222

people have keycaps coming out of their ass, too. there's a guy selling a couple cheap sets for $10 apiece. this board should retain its value pretty well, so if you get it, you can count on recouping most of your money if you have to flip it.

if you need ergo AND the lightest touch possible, you can always get the board, then pay someone who knows what they're doing to replace the switches with reds.

i don't know a lot, but i hope this helps some. good luck!

thegnu · « **Reply #2 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:21:59 »

and as far as i know, there are topres that are 30g actuation force, but i don't really know anything about topre switches.

jabar · « **Reply #3 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:25:28 »

I think the biggest problem with Reds for RSI individuals is bottoming out. Every keypress will result in crashing against the plate, a very high impulse event. Even though the keys would require little force to actuate, there is little to prevent bottoming out.

I don't have a good answer; it depends on the user. Some have issues with keycap resistance and should stick to low cN actuation keys (Reds, Blues, maybe Browns, Topre 45g and below). Some have issues with bottoming out as I said above. The Topre board I am currently typing on bottoms out a lot smoother than any MX switch I've used.

thegnu · « **Reply #4 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:28:58 »

i failed to mention i use blues. my keypad is browns, and i just realized a couple minutes ago (after buying a bunch of blues to mod the keypad) that i might actually like the browns better. :/

i actually really like the feel of buckling spring, but it's too much force to be using all the time.

Rythh · « **Reply #5 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:50:22 »

It seems there is no clear answer on which key is best for me >.< I am not sure if the fatigue I experience is caused mostly by the bottoming out of my keys (since I use a crappy rubber-dome board now and always bottom out) or the actuation force required to use the key. I believe I would benefit the most from having a keyboard designed ergonomically as well as with low actuation force, so something like the Realforce doesn't seem like a good fit. My disease kills the muscle in my entire body, so my arms and wrists, while not giving me much trouble now while typing, could really benefit in the long run from an ergo board.

I need to find out which key is more tiring, the brown or the red. The TrulyErgo only comes with browns and would be a good keyboard for me if I could be sure the keys would be just as easy to use as the reds. Has any programmer out there used both browns and reds while coding and noticed a fatigue difference?

rootwyrm · « **Reply #6 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 01:33:29 »

Actually, I would strongly recommend trying blues with very heavy keycaps. Remember that the weight of the keycap reduces the weight required to actuate it. The blues provide significant tactile feedback reducing bottoming out potentially. Blues have enough resistance that they can handle the heavier keycaps without increasing the tendency to bottom out. Somebody else would have to figure out the difference in actuation weight for blues depending on keycaps though. (I have some insanely heavy ones that are past the point where blues return without some help.) Remember that your ultimate goal is two-fold; reduce the force required to actuate without impacting accuracy. Stretching to reach backspace = bad.
The real problem is likely the most beneficial thing for you would be my favorite keyboard, the IBM M13. Which puts a TrackPoint mouse right on the keyboard so you don't have to move your arms. The problem is that you're talking about a very, very tiring keyboard at 70-80cN - especially since even the TrackPoint II is going to involve you holding the trackpoint direction for long periods because they don't have inertia or momentum.
Yesyes, trackpads, blah blah. Problem is with trackpads, you have increased arm movement to lift, reposition, tap and click. And they're poorly suited to situations where fine motor control isn't spot on. I most definitely would recommend avoiding them just because of that. The alternative is using thumbs more, which would of course begin to compromise grip over time. Which is definitely worse than if your pinky should stop working.

As far as the ergonomic side of things, TBH, I'd stick with a standard keyboard and follow general best practices - get an adjustable tray, neutral wrist position, prefer a recline of ~100-130 degrees for your chair (to preference) - 'straight' posture is bad - and experiment. Ultimately you may want to consider a Datahand - they're the lowest out there at 20g - but they're also incredibly expensive and hard to get.

davkol · « **Reply #7 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 01:38:09 »

Goldtouch Adjustable Keyboard / Kinesis Freestyle (pretty light rubber dome with soft landing; I have the goldtouch, and sort of like it)
Cherry MY modded to be ~25 cN (springs removed)
Cherry MX Red (browns have higher peak force) switches with soft-landing pads on a keyboard of your choice (BTW there might be another run of the ErgoDox GB)

crthell · « **Reply #8 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 02:44:09 »

Quote from: jabar on Sun, 24 February 2013, 00:25:28

I think the biggest problem with Reds for RSI individuals is bottoming out. Every keypress will result in crashing against the plate, a very high impulse event. Even though the keys would require little force to actuate, there is little to prevent bottoming out.

I don't have a good answer; it depends on the user. Some have issues with keycap resistance and should stick to low cN actuation keys (Reds, Blues, maybe Browns, Topre 45g and below). Some have issues with bottoming out as I said above. The Topre board I am currently typing on bottoms out a lot smoother than any MX switch I've used.

Would o-rings help someone with RSI?

hoggy · « **Reply #9 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 09:21:20 »

+1 on the datahand.

Also consider kinesis advantage with reds, but leave the beeps on to train yourself to avoid bottoming out.

You should check out Tim Tyler. Mykeyboard.Com (I think, I'm using my phone).

Either dvorak or colmak will be an improvement on qwerty.

Software can help too. Look for, or build your own case tools. Autohotkey, ditto (clipboard manager), etc can help as well.

hoggy · « **Reply #10 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 09:42:29 »

If you can find someone to do the Tyler like switch surgery, then at least try to get a board that would allow the switches to be removed without desoldering.

What language do you program in?

thegnu · « **Reply #11 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 10:32:44 »

if you're looking for recommendations on mice, i have tried tons and tons of mice, and nothing has been better than the kensington expertmouse (trackball). it's big enough that you can move it with larger muscle groups, and you can press the keys with the assistance of gravity. it's got 4 buttons, so you can program it to double click and ctrl+click for you.

if you're on a rubber dome keyboard, you will probably feel a great improvement with any mechanical switch. if you feel confident about liking ergo keyboards, one with browns or blues should be fine. the browns are easier to press, but the blues give a little more feedback. i would probably go with the browns in your case, as when i have been practicing guitar a lot, the blues seem a little heavy, but it really is a toss up.

i wish apple hadn't bought out and gutted fingerworks. when i was looking at ergo keyboards, i saw the touchstream, and was all "$300? i'm going to try something else first." two weeks later, they got bought out and they were selling for $1200. i have never wanted to kick myself in the nuts so badly.

and this may not help much, but i've got a kinesis freestyle (rubber dome) that i can send you if you cover shipping. if that would help you narrow down what the problem is. i only have one of the risers, so you'll need to fashion some sort of wedge to elevate it, or buy the risers. it's missing the F10 keycap, but let's be serious, who ever presses F10?

thegnu · « **Reply #12 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 10:44:23 »

this place that apparently sold the touchstream and at least has statistical data on returns recommends the kinesis advantage:

http://www.ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/fingerworks_lp.html

Rythh · « **Reply #13 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 11:12:56 »

Trust me guys, if I had the money for a datahand I would be all over it. The price is just prohibitively expensive, especially since they are sold out right now

My language used differs depending on the job at hand.

So it seems that deciding between reds and browns is a matter of trying them out. I really can't tell if the bottoming out is the issue, but I know I am weak enough that it might be easier for me than most to not bottom out using reds. It seems my best choice is between Advantage Reds or Advantage Browns.

@Davkol, what do you mean they have higher peak force? Would that make the keys more tiring in the long run?

Thanks guys for all the information and discourse, every bit of info you guys give me is getting me one step closer to helping my hands out.

oneproduct · « **Reply #14 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 11:22:02 »

I'd like to present you with some more unconventional options. The first is the OrbiTouch http://orbitouch.com/

This is a keyboard without keys, and it's operated using the strength in your arms rather than your fingers or hands. It would likely have a large learning curve, but it may be a good long term solution if you expect that your hands and fingers may become too weak.

Quote

Easy
An American-made product, orbiTouch has helped individuals with disabilities or injuries become more productive, connected, and most of all, independent. Whether used for personal or work purposes, orbiTouch is a powerful communication tool that is simple to learn and easy to use.
Accessible
Domes replace keys to minimize hand and wrist exertion, creating a pain-free typing experience. OrbiTouch Keyless Keyboard requires no ﬁnger or wrist motion to operate. A full 128 character keyboard and mouse in one, orbiTouch is an ergonomic alternative to the standard keyboard.

The second thing is a virtual keyboard, as it has no required force to depress keys. http://www.virtual-laser-devices.com/?an=vlk-new

In either case, one thing you mentioned is the strain in your pinkies from holding down modifier keys. In Windows, in the accessibility settings in control panel, you can set sticky keys on. What this does is that when you press a modifier, it stays on until your next keypress. This way you don't have to hold control while pressing S for example, you can simply press control separately then press S at your leisure. This would also allow you to press control with something other than your pinky.

Rythh · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 11:27:55 »

Mouse-wise, I am looking at getting a Rat 7 from Mad Catz, because it allows me to grip the mouse exactly how I like. The pinky tray especially is something that might really help, anyone used one of those?

I have never heard of the Orbitouch, do you know if it allows the same speed of typing as a regular board? (I would highly doubt it, but it may be a tradeoff I should make)

And the virtual keyboard is something I have thought of before, but I think it would make it more tiring for my fingers in the long run. The precision required to hit the keys in rapid succession means I would have to constantly be flexing the muscles in my fingers to maintain control. In other areas of my life having to control my fingers like that is what causes the quickest fatigue >.< (such as gaming on a console controller, it's the reason I can only play Xbox with a Razer Onza/Sabretooth)

oneproduct · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 11:34:12 »

It seems like it's fairly slower. http://orbitouch.com/resources/research/

They list 38 wpm for a person without disabilities on an OrbiTouch vs >70 on a regular keyboard. However, as a fellow programmer, I think it's fair to say that programming is seldom about writing a huge amount of text (vs writing a book for example), and even if it is, the speed of it is seldom important. More time is spent in thought, so loss of speed may not be a huge issue.

Edit: The graph only shows people with a certain number of hours of experience with the OrbiTouch. One of the studies listed on that research page is trying to interpolate how long it would take to reach 60 WPM based on that information and seems to think you could reach that speed within 140 hours of usage (which is longer than it sounds when you think of the actual amount of time you type on a keyboard rather than the amount of time you sit in front of it). However in doing this extrapolation they don't seem to consider any physical limitations of the device itself, as in it might be too hard to move the two keybowls that quickly.

Quote

The performance data indicate that relearning the type with the Keybowl can be done fairly
quickly. After five hours of using the Keybowl, 52% of QWERTY keyboard typing speed was
realized. In addition, learning curve analysis was used to gain insight as to how long it make
take a proficient typist to gain 60 wpm QWERTY speeds on the Keybowl. Learning rates were
calculated using a log linear model proposed by Hancock and Bayha (1982). The analysis
consisted of doubling the output and computing the word per cycle increase. The analysis
revealed that an average of approximately 140 hours was needed to reach 60 wpm in typing
with the Keybowl. For the QWERTY group, 36 additional hours of training were needed to reach
60 wpm. The differential would therefore be equal to 140-36 or 104 hours of total training
time to reach 60 wpm when typing with the Keybowl (for the given subject group). Longer
term studies are needed to determine the exact variation of how performances differ over time.

This also depends largely on what your typing speed currently is. According to them, the average typing speed for qwerty typists is 39 WPM and they say that you can reach that on an Orbitouch in around 15 hours, which would be more akin to 1 or 2 hours a day for 10 to 15 days rather than all at once. I say this as someone who switched from qwerty to Colemak; you can't force it all at once, you have to kind of sleep on it and it becomes muscle memory after some time.

Rythh · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 12:02:16 »

Do you recommend colemak over Dvorak? For programming it seems colemak is the better option, but I am not sure why. I don't think I quite need to take the leap and go to an orbitouch, the Advantage seems my best option for the Cherry Reds and the price.

oneproduct · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 12:06:55 »

I tried switching from qwerty to dvorak before switching from qwerty to colemak. I didn't give dvorak the same kind of chance that I gave colemak in terms of time, but I certainly enjoy colemak now. It is easier to learn, and you get to keep zxcv for undo, cut, copy, paste, which is certainly a nice thing if you're not the kind of guy that uses Vim.

I'm typing this on a Kinesis with reds as we speak, and I have to say that I prefer the Kinesis for programming over the TrulyErgonomic but I probably prefer the TrulyErgonomic for character sets that don't require programming symbols (i.e. writing emails that don't include things like (){}[]$% and such) or movement keys (tab, home/end, etc). When trying to program on a TrulyErgonomic I have a fair bit of "unfamiliarity" issues.

hoggy · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 12:15:19 »

I didn't think about the orbitouch, I have one; just make sure you will be able to return it if you don't get on with it. However, it is designed to use gross motor control...

sordna · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 12:41:09 »

Rythh, my recommendation would be either the Kinesis Advantage with reds, or a used Fingerworks Touchstream. I have both (I also have Advantages with browns). My pinkies get tired easily, and I found the tactile resistance of switches (blues, browns, etc) aggravating and tiring, and so the red switches have been a huge relief. Combined with the little beep/click sound the Advantage makes, it really helps avoid bottoming out the switch, saving your muscles from further effort.
Combined with soft 40A o-rings to dampen the landing when you do bottom out, the comfort increases considerably.

The Advantage can really help reduce pinky usage since it allows you to use your thumbs for a lot of actions.

fentek-ind.com sells the Advantage LF for a good discount over MSRP.

The Fingerworks Touchstream is very nice also, it only takes a literal touch to type, but it's hard to type correctly without looking at it. The mousing is amazing, sliding 2 fingers or the right half moves the pointer, and sliding 2 fingers on the left half, moves the cursor (even works on unix terminals, no drivers required). They are hard to find since they are discontinued (apple bought the company for their patents, and slowly trickling a miniscule subset of Fingerworks' awesome features into their ipads, trackpads and such).

tauburn · « **Reply #21 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 12:53:06 »

if bottoming out is an issue you could look into o rings or soft landing pads

sordna · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 13:19:05 »

BTW this thread should be moved to the Ergonomics forum.

aviphysics · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 15:04:32 »

My mother has a Kinesis Advantage with brown switches. She was suffering from really bad carpal tunnel (wore wrist braces for years and tried a variety of other keyboards and solutions) and some shoulder problems. In terms of ergonomics, she says she really likes the Kinesis because it puts all the keys at equal distance from her finger tips (she has slightly shorter fingers than most people). It also supports your palms while you type. As has been previously stated, it also reduces pinky usage.

It would seem to me that red keys with some dampener o-rings might be the best for you. Maybe you could start off with a cheaper keyboard like a Quickfire Rapid with red switches just to see how the keys feel before getting an ergonomic board.

As an alternative to a mouse, a trackball like the Logitech TrackMan FX (they don't make them anymore but you can still find them used) or Logitech Cordless TrackMan Optical (still available new but they just stopped making them) might work well for you. My mother and I both have the Trackman FX and a friend of mine just upgraded from the FX to wireless Optical because he wanted a scroll wheel. They both hold your hand in a nice neutral position and are comfortable to use for long periods of time. My friend even uses his for gaming.

For mice, I might recommend a Mionix Naos as it provides really good support for all 5 fingers. The main downside of this mouse is that it is more difficult to lift an reposition than other mice. It has good sensitivity and tracking though so you shouldn't need to lift it very often if at all outside of a first person shooter.

Rythh · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 22:17:22 »

Just wanted to say thank you Avi, that is the first I have ever heard of the Naos, and I am now a proud owner of the Naos 8200 (or well, I will be in 5-8 business days!)

laffindude · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 22:43:37 »

I am just curious. Given your health issues, can Ergonomic boards be tax deductible under medical expenses?

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p502/ar02.html <specifically:
Medical care expenses must be primarily to alleviate or prevent a physical or mental defect or illness.

Sounds like it is a perfect fit for your reason in needing an ergonomic board.

thirdkind · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:04:45 »

You should definitely give the MX red switches a try. I know a lot of people complain about how easy it is to bottom out on them, but once I got used to them, I was able to glide over the keys very quickly without bottoming out excessively. My guess is that due to your condition, you're not a heavy typist and you'll be more likely to have problems with keys that require too much actuation force and a tactile bump to push through, forcing your muscles to work harder. I think MX reds with o-rings to cushion the landing would be a good starting point for you.

metalliqaz · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:10:42 »

Quote from: rootwyrm on Sun, 24 February 2013, 01:33:29

Actually, I would strongly recommend trying blues with very heavy keycaps. Remember that the weight of the keycap reduces the weight required to actuate it.

Remember that very heavy caps like the Zinc set also have much higher inertia. I find that they actually take more work to fling around.

stingrae · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:26:48 »

Your best bet is probably to go with sordna's recommendation. mx red is lighter than brown because you need some force to overcome the bump and it's noticeable if you have an issue. I didn't think it ever would be but well I have a wrist injury so my posiition is a bit changed.

rootwyrm · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:41:48 »

Quote from: metalliqaz on Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:10:42

Quote from: rootwyrm on Sun, 24 February 2013, 01:33:29
Actually, I would strongly recommend trying blues with very heavy keycaps. Remember that the weight of the keycap reduces the weight required to actuate it.

Remember that very heavy caps like the Zinc set also have much higher inertia. I find that they actually take more work to fling around.

Well Zinc would be too heavy. I'm talking more along the lines of crazy thick doubleshots, thick PBT, etcetera. Slowing the return is fine as well, just as long as it returns unassisted.

Also, the Kinesis is absolutely the WORST keyboard for the OP with his condition. You people are trying to solve for RSI which is all well and good for people with RSI. This is not RSI. This is degenerative - a completely different ball game. Increasing thumb use is the worst possible thing to do. That means losing use of the thumbs faster, which obviously is a bad thing. The Kinesis is designed for people with RSI issues from 8-12 hours straight - not people with this sort of disability. They aren't even comparable issues - what's good for one is bad for the other.

The Kinesis is also a horrible board for compromised motor control for the same reasons it's good for RSI - reduced travel. That means a spasm guarantees impact and trigger. It's a very, very bad combination. I speak from unfortunate experience (though in my case it's usually my arms and shoulders than fingers.) Increasing thumb use is a very bad thing with degenerative because it compromises grip - do not ask how many times I have been reminded of this.

rknize · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 00:25:22 »

As hoggy mentioned, Tim Tyler has some pretty interesting projects with a huge emphasis on light actuation force on the order of 10cN. Here is the actual URL:

http://mykeyboard.co.uk/

mkawa · « **Reply #31 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 00:28:36 »

datahand?

hoggy · « **Reply #32 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 01:35:31 »

Do you take rest breaks? There's some decent stuff out there for free. I use workrave. I've managed to create a spreadsheet that reads the stats that it produces so I can see how much typing I do each day - got data going back a few years.

Edit:

How are your legs? It's possible to use a trackball with your feet...

Dwell clicking software can click the mouse for you. I don't know about you, but I mouse click about 2500-3000 times a day.

rootwyrm · « **Reply #33 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 03:24:23 »

Quote from: mkawa on Mon, 25 February 2013, 00:28:36

datahand?

I mentioned it earlyer. Ruled out as too expensive and unobtanium. Come to think of it, I haven't even seen them on offer once in the past 6 months - are they selling out that fast?

thegnu · « **Reply #34 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 07:18:18 »

Quote from: rootwyrm on Sun, 24 February 2013, 23:41:48

Also, the Kinesis is absolutely the WORST keyboard for the OP with his condition. You people are trying to solve for RSI which is all well and good for people with RSI.

so what do you recommend? TKL? deck-style compact layout? browns? or really light topre?

EDIT: what about this this thing? programmable, can put any of the keys anywhere, right? http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39264.msg766094#msg766094

Rythh · « **Reply #35 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:08:36 »

rootwyrm you have brought up points I didn't think about, and I definitely want to hear what you might recommend, if not the Advantage. I honestly think I can't completely win, with my disease SOMETHING is going to lose, whether it be my thumbs or pinkys or whatever. However, being unable to grip is something I am all too familiar with, and it is scary. I don't want to lose my thumbs, so I just don't know what to do. You seem to have at least a similar situation so any advice is wonderful.

Also, who is this Tim Tyler guy, and could he help me? It seems my options are becoming more limited.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #36 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:27:02 »

WHICH, degenerative muscle disease do you have?

??

Rythh · « **Reply #37 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:34:00 »

Spinal Muscular Atrophy type 3 is my particular poison >.<

tp4tissue · « **Reply #38 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:54:09 »

Quote from: Rythh on Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:34:00

Spinal Muscular Atrophy type 3 is my particular poison >.<

Hmm...

Wiki says :

People with SMA, their cognitive development can be slightly faster, and certain aspects of their intelligence are above the average. Despite their disability, SMA-affected people report high degree of satisfaction from life.

And you got type 3, so you have the same lifespan as everyone else...

Perfect disease for the evil-genius occupation.

And if they ever catch you doing bad stuff... you'd just be like f.. you... I got SMA... and they'd be like,, eh... ok.. fine... here's a parking ticket for blowing up that stadium...

rknize · « **Reply #39 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 10:25:02 »

Quote from: Rythh on Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:08:36

Also, who is this Tim Tyler guy, and could he help me? It seems my options are becoming more limited.

He is....an interesting guy. I ran across his site many years ago...before coming here. Watch some of his YouTube videos to get an idea of just "who" he is. He has taken things to the extreme, but his projects are interesting.

It seems like you need a short term and long term solution. You need to get off that rubber dome ASAP. I would personally recommend you picking up a standard type of keyboard with some light switches to start. If you are going down the road of reduced actuation force, I would start with something that uses Cherry MX red switches. Pick up a cheap Rosewill from NewEgg or CM Storm Quick Fire Rapid or find something in the classifieds. The issue of hard landings can be mitigated somewhat with soft o-rings from http://wasd.com or soft landing pads from http://elitekeyboards.com/. This will get you going with the least amount of investment, IMO.

If you find you like the linear action and want to go even lighter, there are aftermarket springs that can make linear MX switches even lighter. You can't really do this with tactile MX switches because they don't like to return using light springs. Obviously, you could pay someone to mod your board for you. There are lots of folks in the community here that would help you out with o-rings/springs and what have you.

uzoc · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 10:30:02 »

Deleted

uzoc · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 10:36:14 »

Quote from: uzoc on Mon, 25 February 2013, 10:30:02

Quote from: Rythh on Sat, 23 February 2013, 23:50:07
Hey everyone, this is my first post on this forum and it is only after extensive research and posting on various other forums. I just need more help because of how important this issue is.

I have a degenerative muscle disease, and as a result the muscles in my fingers and hands are beginning to get rather weak. This issue is only compounded by my love of coding, and is actually worrying me a bit since I am beginning to get muscle fatigue within an hour or two of starting to program, each and every day. My issues are not the typical issues of RSI sufferers and other ergonomic lovers, so I really need some advice, because with my disease the more I use my muscle the faster I lose it (doesn't that just suck?). I have never shopped for or owned an ergonomic keyboard before, and I am not sure what EXACTLY causes my fatigue in my fingers, whether it is positioning, actuation force, key layout, or a combination of all 3.

All I know for a fact is that I truly need a low actuation force for my keys. My pinkys, especially, take a huge beating due to the constant use of modifier keys while programming (shift, ctrl, enter). After a good day of coding, my pinky fingers are pretty much unusable. Therefore, I would love some advice on the difference between Cherry Reds and Cherry Browns. As both keys have the same actuation force, does one produce more fatigue than the other? I think the key type I choose is probably the most important aspect of my keyboard hunt, so should I be okay with both Browns and Reds?

However, I also cannot spend a lot of money, because I just don't have it (I honestly wish I could spend 1k on a datahand or the like, but I simply can't). Therefore, it seems my only options are the Kinesis Advantage, the TrulyErgonomic, or perhaps a Maltron (though that would be pushing the very limits of my budget, so it would really need to have noticeable benefits over the other boards). I also know that the QWERTY layout is at least part of the problem (designing a layout that requires constant stretching of the fingers is just not good for weak fingers). Are there any programmers out there specifically that could offer insight into a good layout to alleviate some of my issues?

I wish I could try out a bunch of different ergonomic boards to truly find what would best fend off my disease, but the best I can get to that is asking a bunch of experienced users of these boards what they think. I know I have a specific issue that most users won't have, so I would love some feedback from anyone with weak fingers like myself, but any and all advice is seriously appreciated. Thanks again guys.

The TypeMatrix is one that concentrates on not using the pinky much (putting enter, delete, etc, in the middle): http://typematrix.com/ (DVORAK model available)
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This is one of the cheapest ones at $100 and the older model that that this reviewer recommends here: http://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=1710.0
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The older model still sells in the TypeMatrix store for $60 and EBay (DVORAK model available). You gotta try them and see if you like them.

elitekeyboards · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 10:50:37 »

Quote from: Rythh on Mon, 25 February 2013, 09:34:00

Spinal Muscular Atrophy type 3 is my particular poison >.<

Hi Rythh,

I run Elitekeyboards.com and neurodegenerative diseases are particularly close to my heart. I watched someone close to me suffer from ALS for many years, and their particular progression of weakness was very similar to what I read about SMA; starting in their legs, then gradually moving up their body. I hope you have found good physical and occupational therapy care by now, but sadly, these people often know little about keyboards in my experience, and while I'm not a doctor or therapist, keyboards are my business so I would like to relate some of my experience to you.

This ALS sufferer was a touch typist and actually used a standard layout Cherry Brown based keyboard for some time without issue, but as their pinkies and ringer fingers became weaker, they found the hard landing of those switches fatiguing. They weren't interested in curved "ergonomic" keyboards, and I assumed it was mainly because they felt unfamiliar with them, having used standard layout boards their whole life, but I later learned that as the disease progressed, the energy they had in a day also declined, so adapting to and learning new tools was just too frustrating. So I offered them a Realforce 103U with an ergonomically weighted layout that they found to be much more comfortable, which they ended up using into their last days when they could only use their index fingers.

Over the progression of the weakening, the biggest difficulty in typing was not the switch or the layout, but their hands. As the muscles in their palms atrophied, they began to develop Ulnar Claw (aka claw-hand), which made it near impossible to use their pinky or ring fingers for typing as it worsened, early on though, they were able to use a sleeping device that would stretch out the tendons in those fingers which lessened the progression for some time. Ultimately, they were left with just index fingers, and the un-ergonomic flat surface of a standard keyboard turned out to be a benefit to them as they pecked around the keyboard. (Note; they did have access to a gaze interaction keyboard, but while they could use their index fingers, they still preferred to type.)

I've done a lot of reading regarding ergonomics and typing, and from what I can gather, our fingers are pretty tough and for someone who is in good health at least 90% of the way to comfort comes from actually getting their hands into a position such that typing doesn't stress other parts of their body. Less than 10% of comfort will be due to the actual switch used or the keyboard layout. However, for someone who's health is declining, it's much more difficult to quantify. I'm not going to recommend one of our products to you because of one anecdotal case (or because I sell them), but I would urge you to consider that an ergonomically shaped keyboard may not be the panacea you or others might imagine it might be, particularly if your health continues to decline and your needs are constantly changing, i.e. a $1k Datahand won't work if you have Ulnar claw. The best thing you can do is try as many things as possible.

I do not make such an offer regularly, but I'd be happy to send you a Realforce 104U with an ergonomic weighting for you to try out for a month or two. Please contact Brian at support@elitekeyboards.com if you're interested.

Brian

rknize · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 11:14:46 »

That's pretty awesome of you, Brian.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 12:31:07 »

I have really come to like my Wow Joy Pen mouse.

No way to know if that's for you until you tried it.

You can get a Chinese knock-off from ebay, delivered. for under $20.

Rythh · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 12:36:01 »

Wow Brian, you have no idea how much I appreciate your offer, I hated being unable to just TRY these boards out. I think the ALS sufferer you spoke of had an experience very similar to what I am and will be experiencing, so I am going to contact you not only to take you up on that offer but to gain more insight into your experience with that person. Seriously, I cannot thank you enough.

metalliqaz · « **Reply #46 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 12:55:50 »

Legendary thread.

hoggy · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 13:47:45 »

Brian - respect.

I think rknize has something with the splitting short term/long term.

To get the ball rolling on ideas for the long term -

Hunt and peck keyboards - maltron offer one, but you could adapt a POS keyboard with an optimised layout - something like fitaly. (http://www.fitaly.com/fitaly/fitaly.htm). I can fish out a board for you if you are interested.

Joy2Key - this site describes where I'm going quite well http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/I/JoyToKey/JoyToKey.htm - the idea is to adapt a joystick so you can attach switches to it and then place those switches where you have good mobility. So a shift key could go onto a foot pedal. If you plan to get a foot pedal - this would give you a good upgrade path.

Edit: If you come across head tracking, well it sounds cool, but really isn't.

Rythh · « **Reply #48 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 15:04:37 »

I agree as well with rknize, I think Brian letting me try out the Realforce may be just the answer I need for my current situation though. Long term, with any luck, may never have to be so drastic as a single finger keyboard. If I can treat my hands right, they will hopefully retain their current use and I won't have to worry about Ulnar Claw (crossing my fingers here, which maybe I shouldn't because that is just using my muscle even more!

) Also, on the note of a foot pedal or anything involving my feet/legs, I've already lost most of the strength in those areas (as Brian said, those go first), so I won't be able to head down that path.

I am going to give this Realforce a try. The variable weight is exactly what my pinky needs, and he has convinced me that I should at least consider a non-ergonomic board layout (which I should have thought of before, it's my fingers giving me issue, not my wrists/arms). And this way, most of the work is still on my pinkys and not moved to my thumbs, which are most certainly more important and I don't want to lose them any quicker than I have to (which I want to thank rootwyrm again for pointing out).

If anyone is interested I will update you guys with my experience. I am giving the Naos 8200 a try as well, as I don't want to give up gaming on my PC yet if I can help it and I really only feel fatigue in my pinky when using my mouse (and this thing has a pinky tray, an innovation every damn mouse needs to start having). Also, I am going to start a new thread here and on Stack Overflow to get some input on a better key layout for Programming software specifically, so if any coders want to give me some input on their experience in that regard hop on over!

Rythh · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 25 February 2013, 15:09:46 »

Also, just wanted to thank all of you guys for your help. Your input and experience has made me think about things I never even considered before, and my hands and life are going to be better off because of it!

With any luck the Realforce will work out and make me a happy coder, but if not I will be back, so please keep thinking about this

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!

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Author Topic: Best Ergonomic Keyboard and key layout for disabled programmer with weak fingers (Read 27341 times)