Author Topic: Madvr users  (Read 6516 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Madvr users
« on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 16:49:37 »
Your settings... and WHY.....
Original



Lanczos4

42185-1

Lanczos 4 tap, Anti-Ringing Filter

42187-2

Jinc 4 tap

42181-3

Jinc 4 tap, Anti-Ringing Filter

42183-4

Offline webs0r

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 18:58:23 »
On my HTPC I use Jinc3 AR for luma, Bicubic75 AR for chroma. (upscaling)

And why.. guys at doom9 already proved Jinc3 to be the best mVR upscaler for real world content to keep sharpness while avoiding aliasing.
Jinc4/8 do not provide anything good over Jinc3.

Only use bicubic75 for chroma as sometimes I get 60fps content and I want to keep it easy on the GPU.

Other key points:
- madVR changing refresh rate to match source
- still use reclock cos it keeps audio/video timings so darn exact, but its not really necessary anymore
- Argyll 3DLUT+madVR for gamut correction (this is so awesome - really a killer feature - Windows should have this rather than the 3x1DLUT correction)
- I don't use smoothmotion or any frame interpolation software

Very happy with madVR, love the software!! Spread the word!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 01 November 2013, 19:21:41 »
On my HTPC I use Jinc3 AR for luma, Bicubic75 AR for chroma. (upscaling)

And why.. guys at doom9 already proved Jinc3 to be the best mVR upscaler for real world content to keep sharpness while avoiding aliasing.
Jinc4/8 do not provide anything good over Jinc3.

Only use bicubic75 for chroma as sometimes I get 60fps content and I want to keep it easy on the GPU.

Other key points:
- madVR changing refresh rate to match source
- still use reclock cos it keeps audio/video timings so darn exact, but its not really necessary anymore
- Argyll 3DLUT+madVR for gamut correction (this is so awesome - really a killer feature - Windows should have this rather than the 3x1DLUT correction)
- I don't use smoothmotion or any frame interpolation software

Very happy with madVR, love the software!! Spread the word!

See here's the thing...

It's true that Jinc Removes Aliasing.. but.. if that aliasing was in the source... WHY are we removing it...

When they go from "whatever" source at the factory  TO   "Bluray"  they are already using a compression algorithm, arguably-most-of-the-time better than any "real-time" resizer...

So The product from the Bluray @ its native resolution is already the BEST we're going to get out of it..


Why do we want another "smoothing resizer filter"  "Jinc 3/4"  ontop of this...

Shouldn't we try to preserve as much of the information as original to the source (bluray) as possible upon resize?



So, with the Jinc filter, we're blurring out detail..   it's IMPOSSIBLE to truly restore "lost detail"..  there is no Parity recovery information in the surrounding pixels..


I am not arguing whether or not some people may "LIKE" the effect of Jinc... but in principle.. Softening out details is what it does.

Offline webs0r

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 06:47:42 »
Uhh a little yes but lots of no, no, no.

Look tp I know what you're thinking, its basically what that James Freeman in the madVR doom9 thread is saying. But your reasoning is way off and wording is very clumsy, leading almost all of your claims being wrong.

I was replying here and noticed madshi has already responded to James so have a look at his response. I'll just put the key things via a different angle to help people understand and stop misinformation:

1. Jinc upscaling does not blur out detail. Or soften detail . Or destroy it. It just avoids creating aliasing in the new pixels that it creates. The detail is still there. Remember  your source image is like 50px. You're upscaling to 200px. It is creating the balance. Also for same reason please don't say that Jinc upscaling removes aliasing. Its not removing anything.

2. Agree it can look softer, that is because it doesn't create aliasing. Aliasing by its nature will make things look sharper, but hey here you have an artifact. A 'sharp' artifact.

3. Your test scenario is geared for lanczos to look closer to the original small image. Nearest neighbour probably would work well in this scenario too, but would you use that for real video content?  Leads to..

4. Real world content does not consist of straight lines with 1 colour value and a background of another colour value. There are many smooth colour transitions and smooth gradients. Look around you at some lines, are any aliased? No.

5. For real world content, Jinc3 AR has the edge over Lanczos (a slight edge only). If you primarly watch lines of 1 colour value, then lanczos might have the edge. The good thing is, you can choose.

6. Don't bring in source image arguments at all. You say that we should preserve information from the original bluray. So if that image you provided was downscaled , how was original image created? Which algorithm, and what artifacts did that introduce / details did that destroy?  Was there aliasing in the original bluray image or not? Because if not, then you shouldn't be having aliasing the upscaled image and your point is invalidated anyway.

And then some kickers:
I know lots of people there like to compare the upscalers here and there and all that but let's put it into perspective:

7. Most content I watch is already at 1080p (i.e. NO luma upscale)

8. The other content is generally 720p that gets upscaled to 1080p (0.67x). Its nothing like tests where a 50p image is scaled to 200p (4x). This drastically decreases the importance/effect of algorithm choice.

oh and 9. Most people don't have a big enough TV / sit close enough to it to be able to physically see the difference.

So! Better off putting efforts into:
- eliminate judder / timing issues
- get a calibration device and learn how to calibrate & profile with Argyll
because these benefits are HUGE!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 13:56:33 »
In reality NO two pixel perceived are identical.. at the limit of the equipment 2 pixels might output the same values.. but the REALITY  of  the matter is.. they are ALWAYS different.. EVEN if the reality-object is more/less uniform in color/brightness...

Edges is a property of the captured information, it also represents the "Best information we have"

SO.... when we have a Filter that turns jagged lines from the sensor and makes it into a straight line.

Is that not the deliberate generation or approximation of "information" that we are only "partly sure" exists?


So essentially preserving EDGES should be a primary issue, because EVERY square pixel has 4 edges in principle..

and if every pixel is supposed to be different... 

Then the ideal, would be to preserve the edge of as many pixels as possible.. all of them if possible.




Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 16:39:02 »
Spline resize on luma
Bilinear on chroma
No MadVR tho...
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 November 2013, 16:45:37 by TheSoulhunter »

Offline webs0r

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 16:49:46 »
@tp Hahaha.

If you want to preserve exact "edges" during high scaling scenario with 1 colour value lines, don't use Jinc then. If you want to maximise this goal, don't use Lanczos or bicubic either (or other) as they will approximate pixels outside of the line.

Use nearest neighbour.

There you go... ;) Done!

I won't argue that your goal is wrong, if that is what you want to achieve.

Heck if it is your primary issue, you must have a lot of video content from games or something in the 1-bit era (pong?) that you want to watch with the absolute sharpest image possible. Go for nearest neighbour.

It's just definitely not a goal for everyone else out there.

@Soulhunter ffdshow?
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Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 16:51:31 »
Makes me remember that plugin we worked on... >.>
The idea was to use different resizers for surfaces and edges.
This way you can get detailed texture and smooth non aliased outlines.

Offline TheSoulhunter

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Re: Madvr users
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 02 November 2013, 16:53:52 »
@Soulhunter ffdshow?

Yep, still using ffdshow...
Mainly because I can run AviSynth scripts in it ;)