Matrix vs Staggered Layout

[kfmfe04]

Recently, I've been considering to join the ergodox mass drop (intend to use Colemak layout), when I noticed in the forums that some users have a problem adapting to a matrix layout.

My question is, are there users out there who comfortably use both matrix and staggered layouts?

Or does getting comfortable with one type screw you up with the other?

I'm concerned that this might be an issue if most of my mechanicals are staggered, while the ergodox is matrix (even though matrix is considered by many to be better, ergonomically).

EDIT:  Or this totally a non-issue since the ergodox layout is so funky anyways and you can adapt as you go from staggered to ergodox and back?

[bearcat]

I've been alternating between staggered & matrix (kinesis advantage), and was working in my own custom (matrix-ish) for a while there before i put it aside for v2.  It's a little hard getting used to each one the first time, but afterwards i don't have any problems switching between them.  WPM was always around 70-80 each.

The trickiest bit is when the keyboards do something funny with some of the less frequent keys you're expecting... e.g., i have a KBT Beetle, and when i got a Poker, i have to wander all over looking for the ~ key sometimes.

I sure do appreciate the non-staggeredness of the matrix boards!  And thumb clusters are really rad.

[Findecanor]

I think that is is better to use the term "columnar layout" to refer to the layouts of Kinesis and ErgoDox (and Maltron and Key64 etc).
A true "matrix" layout, like on the "Type Matrix" - brand keyboards has 90° angles between rows and columns, and I find that to be even less ergonomic than the right-hand-staggered QWERTY and to be very far from the layout of the Kinesis.

[davkol]

My question is, are there users out there who comfortably use both matrix and staggered layouts?

Yeah.

Or does getting comfortable with one type screw you up with the other?

Not necessarily. Does that happen when you're learning a foreign language or a different script?

Different locations of keys such as backspace/enter/... or hotkeys can be a bit of an issue at times though.

[tp4tissue]

My question is, are there users out there who comfortably use both matrix and staggered layouts?

Yeah.

Or does getting comfortable with one type screw you up with the other?

Not necessarily. Does that happen when you're learning a foreign language or a different script?

Different locations of keys such as backspace/enter/... or hotkeys can be a bit of an issue at times though.

that is because on the staggered qwerty they relied on being on the edge of the main cluster for easy find-by-feel..

Everything on the Egdx is easy to find. because every key is reachable from a fixed anchor point. 

If on a keyboard the key you're looking for has requires you to disengage physical anchor points (@ least 1 finger on a known button), then that is when you can get lost, and require visual confirmation.

Hops can be memorized.. but that reduces accuracy dramatically because the board is not always in the same position, and you are not always facing the board at the same angle.

[Oobly]

^^ These are good points. Also, the more different a layout is (both physical AND character), the less they will "interfere" with each other. I suggest you take the time to learn a new character layout to go with your physical layout change to make it really worthwhile. That way you can keep your "normal" staggered layout typing speed while learning your new ergonomic layout and in the end you will be using a much more ergonomic solution. It makes switching between them really easy, too, in case you HAVE to use a staggered qwerty board at any point.

Which character layout to choose is another dicussion however, and is a personal choice (alternation vs rolls, similarity / difference to qwerty, is it designed for columnar physical layout, etc.). I went for a slight modification of AdNW BU-Teck since it is designed for columnar layout, prefers alternation (like Dvorak), is very different from qwerty and has been analysed using criteria which suit me:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49721.msg1078758#msg1078758

So far my qwerty skills haven't suffered at all and I'm typing at around 20wpm on my custom board. I still look at the qwerty board when I type, but not at my custom one, since I never have to move my hands from "home" position. When I use the arrows and edit cluster, I use my thumbs as anchors and the "hop" is easy, due to the different feeling of the keys (backwards mounted Row4 POM keys vs normal mounted PBT) and the home key bumps.

[yasuo]

Almost same thread
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47395.msg1009253#msg1009253

[vivalarevolución]

Hey bros.  First of all, Happy Thanksgiving.  I am typing between gulps of beer and food preparations.

To verify my qualifications, I use an Ergodox at work and a standard ANSI staggered keyboard at home.  Perhaps I am super human or something, but the transition between the two for me is not a problem.  After a couple minutes of getting going on each, I do not have much trouble.  You are right to assume that the differences between the two are so stark that the transition between them is not that difficult.

Adjusting to use the thumb keys was the most difficult part for me, but once I had that down, things have been smooth sailing.

Switching between QWERTY and my custom layout is a challenge.  I am AWFUL at QWERTY these days.

When I had a variety of matrix layout keyboards-Kinesis Advantage, Ergodox, Maltron-that I was switching between regularly, I had some troubles.  Each had a different keys in some locations, so that created some issues.  Now I worship at the church of Ergodox, so things are going smoothly now.

[davkol]

FWIW the only thing, that has ever caused me issues, was Backspace/Ctrl/Enter position.

Colemak's backspace instead of CapsLock is ridiculously addictive, but it messes with typing on QWERTY when I need that. What's worse, I swap Ctrl and CapsLock (remapped to Backspace in actuality) in hardware for gaming... and sometimes forget about it. I guess you can imagine my confusion when I'm trying to Ctrl+Tab then.

I rotated staggered QWERTY keyboards and TypeMatrix 2030 for a few months. If you aren't familiar with the TM2030, it's a matrix/grid keyboard that has Backspace and Enter in the middle. Brilliant idea... not compatible with the "traditional" layout though.

Those are the only issues I've ever had with totally different layouts. Luckily, I don't mind differences between ANSI and ISO anymore thanks to this experience.

[bedrift]

Lately I've found reading material about the benefits of non-staggered layouts, such as matrix and columnar layouts, compared to the standard staggered layout. Is it my conviction that the familiarity of the staggered layout is its greatest pro, but is there really no other benefit? Because if there are none, wouldn't it be a great idea for companies like Logitech and Microsoft be the first big brand to enter the non-staggered layout market? A flashy, "revolutionary", that is for the mainstream, product would surely be sell-able, at least with some marketing if sites like this don't carry enough buzz. Mechanical keyboards are mainstream for gamers in Sweden today.

TL;DR: I'm looking for arguments for the staggered layout, preferably academic rather than anecdotal, but any other than the initial transition cost.

[daerid]

Lately I've found reading material about the benefits of non-staggered layouts, such as matrix and columnar layouts, compared to the standard staggered layout. Is it my conviction that the familiarity of the staggered layout is its greatest pro, but is there really no other benefit? Because if there are none, wouldn't it be a great idea for companies like Logitech and Microsoft be the first big brand to enter the non-staggered layout market? A flashy, "revolutionary", that is for the mainstream, product would surely be sell-able, at least with some marketing if sites like this don't carry enough buzz. Mechanical keyboards are mainstream for gamers in Sweden today.

TL;DR: I'm looking for arguments for the staggered layout, preferably academic rather than anecdotal, but any other than the initial transition cost.

You won't find many, as the staggered layout is a completely legacy artifact dating from before computers were invented (late 1800s). The only reason it's stayed around is familiarity coupled with the ungodly huge number of existing devices that have been manufactured with that layout. It's a dwindling spiral really, as more and more keyboards are manufactured with the staggered layout, the more reason there is to produce it in order to be compatible.

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

Lately I've found reading material about the benefits of non-staggered layouts, such as matrix and columnar layouts, compared to the standard staggered layout. Is it my conviction that the familiarity of the staggered layout is its greatest pro, but is there really no other benefit? Because if there are none, wouldn't it be a great idea for companies like Logitech and Microsoft be the first big brand to enter the non-staggered layout market? A flashy, "revolutionary", that is for the mainstream, product would surely be sell-able, at least with some marketing if sites like this don't carry enough buzz. Mechanical keyboards are mainstream for gamers in Sweden today.

TL;DR: I'm looking for arguments for the staggered layout, preferably academic rather than anecdotal, but any other than the initial transition cost.

daerid's comment is spot on.

 I think it'd be companies like Cooler Master or Corsair instead of MS or Logitech that would be more likely to take the risk first.

[yasuo]

Lately I've found reading material about the benefits of non-staggered layouts, such as matrix and columnar layouts, compared to the standard staggered layout. Is it my conviction that the familiarity of the staggered layout is its greatest pro, but is there really no other benefit? Because if there are none, wouldn't it be a great idea for companies like Logitech and Microsoft be the first big brand to enter the non-staggered layout market? A flashy, "revolutionary", that is for the mainstream, product would surely be sell-able, at least with some marketing if sites like this don't carry enough buzz. Mechanical keyboards are mainstream for gamers in Sweden today.

TL;DR: I'm looking for arguments for the staggered layout, preferably academic rather than anecdotal, but any other than the initial transition cost.

i think can be started from symmetrical layout like Mtron easier adaptation than matrix/columnar

[jmchargue]

Are there any laptops with columnar layouts, or ways to drastically modify laptop keyboards? I'm surprised there aren't people jumping on better aftermarket laptop keyboards...

[SonOfSonOfSpock]

It would be difficult to swap out a laptop keyboard since they are such tightly integrated devices.

[yakitysax]

Are there any laptops with columnar layouts, or ways to drastically modify laptop keyboards? I'm surprised there aren't people jumping on better aftermarket laptop keyboards...

There's not really enough room to do that with laptops and still have the lid shut. Disassemble one and the keyboard will essentially be a thin mat laying on top of a thin metal/plastic sheet or other components.

[daerid]

There's not really enough room to do that with laptops and still have the lid shut. Disassemble one and the keyboard will essentially be a thin mat laying on top of a thin metal/plastic sheet or other components.

Pretty sure there's enough room to at least get a matrix layout going on on most laptops.

[tp4tissue]

Lately I've found reading material about the benefits of non-staggered layouts, such as matrix and columnar layouts, compared to the standard staggered layout. Is it my conviction that the familiarity of the staggered layout is its greatest pro, but is there really no other benefit? Because if there are none, wouldn't it be a great idea for companies like Logitech and Microsoft be the first big brand to enter the non-staggered layout market? A flashy, "revolutionary", that is for the mainstream, product would surely be sell-able, at least with some marketing if sites like this don't carry enough buzz. Mechanical keyboards are mainstream for gamers in Sweden today.

TL;DR: I'm looking for arguments for the staggered layout, preferably academic rather than anecdotal, but any other than the initial transition cost.

You won't find many, as the staggered layout is a completely legacy artifact dating from before computers were invented (late 1800s). The only reason it's stayed around is familiarity coupled with the ungodly huge number of existing devices that have been manufactured with that layout. It's a dwindling spiral really, as more and more keyboards are manufactured with the staggered layout, the more reason there is to produce it in order to be compatible.

It comes down to how much you actually use the computer..

If they do not use it enough to induce pain in their hands/arms.. then an ergoboard is of no great benefit..

Computer use is increasing.. But keyboard use is not the only part of that increase..


The people that are drawn to GH, are usually the ones where keyboard use far exceeds confortable limit on a sub-optimal qwerty.

[Oobly]

A funny aspect of the whole history of keyboards is that typewriters traditionally had the rows of keys at different heights.

When making electric typewriters, they made them flatter, so there was already a big difference in feel. That's the point they should have introduced much better physical layouts, since the technology no longer relied on a mechanical connection between the key and the mechanism. Back then, people tended to think more long term and often didn't mind taking time to learn something new if they saw a long term benefit, and the people who used typewriters usually did so as a large part of their job, so they would use them enough to see a benefit to a more ergonomic design.

But, even more nowadays then before, people don't like disruptive change unless they are really upset with the existing version of a thing and understand the need for something better.