I will like clears, right?

[mooswa]

I need to make up my mind on the switch to use for my next board.  I have tried blues and browns and while I enjoy the sound of blues very much I tend to bottom out on them too often; more so then on browns.  I guess it has to do with the pressure point of the blues being about the same as the bottom out point, while with browns it is a bit lower.  I have typed on Unicomp for awhile and I do not find BS tiring.  I see that clears spring has the biggest slope and the force diagram shows pressure point way bellow the bottoming out point.  So in theory I will bottom out less on clears and stiffness should not be a problem for me.  Any reason not to pick clears?

[terrpn]

I need to make up my mind on the switch to use for my next board.  I have tried blues and browns and while I enjoy the sound of blues very much I tend to bottom out on them too often; more so then on browns.  I guess it has to do with the pressure point of the blues being about the same as the bottom out point, while with browns it is a bit lower.  I have typed on Unicomp for awhile and I do not find BS tiring.  I see that clears spring has the biggest slope and the force diagram shows pressure point way bellow the bottoming out point.  So in theory I will bottom out less on clears and stiffness should not be a problem for me.  Any reason not to pick clears?

i love mine.............., but i rotate just like everybody else does for a change of pace

to answer your question i do not regret buying clears at all

[Pacifist]

Get the switch tester first

[terrpn]

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37473.0

[terrpn]

Get the switch tester first

there you go.............

a word of wisdom before spending your hard earned money

[Psybin]

I like mine a lot. Between that and my green board I'm falling out of loves with the blues quickly.

[Pacifist]

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The pressure point of blues is around half-way down. If you press an MX blue switch gently until your finger stops, then press a bit harder you'll feel your finger drop another 2 mm to the bottom. They are very light though, and getting used to them after BS, or BS after using Cherry, is hard.

The pressure point can't be below the bottoming out point, by definition — I am not sure what you're referring to here.

Clears are ..... interesting. Nothing like BS at all, and they take a bit of getting used to, but they're perfectly usable. The problem with clears is that the stupid things are like hen's teeth. Certainly if you like BS, it's probably the most realistic option from Cherry, as the tactile point is long and rounded, instead of the sharp point of blues and greens.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Hm, there were no replies when I started writing that ...

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

Not with clears. It's easy to learn to release the switch just after actuation, as the force rises so sharply, so you avoid the high end of the force curve, leaving a switch that's a nice intermediate weight.

I gave my G80-3000LCQDE (clears) to one of our apprentices, and after he left, the other one swiped the keyboard immediately. The force curve of clears never seemed to bother either of them, and I had it figured out fairly quickly. There's no hard bottoming out (since you learn to release early), and no high force, but the caveat is that pressing a single key by itself can feel very spongy if you don't hit it hard enough to not notice, or light to enough to stop after actuation.

[mooswa]

The pressure point can't be below the bottoming out point, by definition — I am not sure what you're referring to here.

Below not in the sense of distance but in the sense of force.  Tactile or pressure point for blues is what 60? And they bottom out at 65.  It seems like once my finger overcomes the pressure of 60, the key just flies all the way down.  I guess I cannot consistently apply force within 61 - 64  . With clears, pressure point is at 65, but they bottom out at 90.  There is way more room not to bottom out it seems.  If those diagrams are correct of course.

[mooswa]

Get the switch tester first

there you go.............

a word of wisdom before spending your hard earned money

I did.  And my initial reaction was meh and I dismissed it.  But it kind of grew on few days later as I walked with it just mindlessly clicking it with my thumb and index finger.  I have mainly noticed how it is much easier to stop after actuation point. Not sure how accurate this testing is compared to actual typing 

[Pacifist]

Get the switch tester first

there you go.............

a word of wisdom before spending your hard earned money

I did.  And my initial reaction was meh and I dismissed it.  But it kind of grew on few days later as I walked with it just mindlessly clicking it with my thumb and index finger.  I have mainly noticed how it is much easier to stop after actuation point. Not sure how accurate this testing is compared to actual typing 

Then clears is for you. Good luck finding a board with one. But you can always buy the mk.com pack and swap stems

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It seems like once my finger overcomes the pressure of 60, the key just flies all the way down.

It's very easy to avoid that with clears. The keyboard trains you.

[tp4tissue]

you're suppose to press it all the way down.

Sean Wrona presses it all the way down...  so You do it...

[Capitalistix]

I just got a G80-LQxxx and I am in love. Let me state first off that I dislike blues for being wispy and annoying with their sound. I love greens though. Such nice feedback that I never feel as if the clicking is unwarranted. However, Im building a new workstation PC and needed a board that felt as theraputic as my greens but wasnt TKL and was silent (or at least quieter). I took a shot in the dark on a mildly expensive keybord with rare clear MX switches. I fell in love right at the start.

The feeling is similar to greens in that it has that bump and resistance but as others have said, its a variable resistance. So similar but still very much different. Its really an amazing feeling. They dont really feel mushy or spongey to me at all. This board MAKES me want to have a reason to sit down and start typing. I play League a ton too, and its nice for that as I need tactility for that game, though some swear by linears for gaming. I love my unicomp BS too, for the record, but this is like... a walk on the wild side. Its like a temptation. Ill always keep my BS and its totally loyal and faithful, but these clears are like... some exotic mistress or something. They've given me a new zest for typing life lol

[reziak]

I just got a G80-LQxxx and I am in love. Let me state first off that I dislike blues for being wispy and annoying with their sound. I love greens though. Such nice feedback that I never feel as if the clicking is unwarranted. However, Im building a new workstation PC and needed a board that felt as theraputic as my greens but wasnt TKL and was silent (or at least quieter). I took a shot in the dark on a mildly expensive keybord with rare clear MX switches. I fell in love right at the start.

The feeling is similar to greens in that it has that bump and resistance but as others have said, its a variable resistance. So similar but still very much different. Its really an amazing feeling. They dont really feel mushy or spongey to me at all. This board MAKES me want to have a reason to sit down and start typing. I play League a ton too, and its nice for that as I need tactility for that game, though some swear by linears for gaming. I love my unicomp BS too, for the record, but this is like... a walk on the wild side. Its like a temptation. Ill always keep my BS and its totally loyal and faithful, but these clears are like... some exotic mistress or something. They've given me a new zest for typing life lol

I hope this is my experience too! I just bit the bullet on an Ergodox kit and went for clears. I've been using browns for a while now, and just got my first Topre board and am loving the increased tactility and how it takes just a little more effort on the Topre switches. Browns just feel weak to me now, so I'm hoping the Clears will be an improvement (I know they won't feel like Topre, but I hope they're better than browns). I dislike blues for the same reasons you describe, so I'd like to try greens at some point. It sounds like we have similar tastes...Hope I like the clears! Worst case scenario is that I can switch out the springs if I don't like them.

[tp4tissue]

I just got a G80-LQxxx and I am in love. Let me state first off that I dislike blues for being wispy and annoying with their sound. I love greens though. Such nice feedback that I never feel as if the clicking is unwarranted. However, Im building a new workstation PC and needed a board that felt as theraputic as my greens but wasnt TKL and was silent (or at least quieter). I took a shot in the dark on a mildly expensive keybord with rare clear MX switches. I fell in love right at the start.

The feeling is similar to greens in that it has that bump and resistance but as others have said, its a variable resistance. So similar but still very much different. Its really an amazing feeling. They dont really feel mushy or spongey to me at all. This board MAKES me want to have a reason to sit down and start typing. I play League a ton too, and its nice for that as I need tactility for that game, though some swear by linears for gaming. I love my unicomp BS too, for the record, but this is like... a walk on the wild side. Its like a temptation. Ill always keep my BS and its totally loyal and faithful, but these clears are like... some exotic mistress or something. They've given me a new zest for typing life lol

I hope this is my experience too! I just bit the bullet on an Ergodox kit and went for clears. I've been using browns for a while now, and just got my first Topre board and am loving the increased tactility and how it takes just a little more effort on the Topre switches. Browns just feel weak to me now, so I'm hoping the Clears will be an improvement (I know they won't feel like Topre, but I hope they're better than browns). I dislike blues for the same reasons you describe, so I'd like to try greens at some point. It sounds like we have similar tastes...Hope I like the clears! Worst case scenario is that I can switch out the springs if I don't like them.

If you got an Egdx.. then you've got nothing to worry about..

It has the mod friendly plate.. You can EASILY switch the stems if you don't like clears..

I went from ergo-clear on my dox, back to stock clears,  now I'm using ergo-blacks, which are reds...

[Linkbane]

The pressure point of blues is around half-way down. If you press an MX blue switch gently until your finger stops, then press a bit harder you'll feel your finger drop another 2 mm to the bottom. They are very light though, and getting used to them after BS, or BS after using Cherry, is hard.

The pressure point can't be below the bottoming out point, by definition — I am not sure what you're referring to here.

Clears are ..... interesting. Nothing like BS at all, and they take a bit of getting used to, but they're perfectly usable. The problem with clears is that the stupid things are like hen's teeth. Certainly if you like BS, it's probably the most realistic option from Cherry, as the tactile point is long and rounded, instead of the sharp point of blues and greens.

David, thanks for summarizing everything I was going to say. The actuation point on the Blues, true, is a tiny bit lower than midway, but it's still well above the bottom-out point. I bottom out on them the least because I learned to type on them daily, but it will take some acclimation from any other boards.

[mooswa]

I went from ergo-clear on my dox, back to stock clears,  now I'm using ergo-blacks, which are reds...

Thanks for that info!    Knowing I will have all these options eases my mind a lot.
I was playing with red demo switch and it kind of grew on me as well - at least I started to understand the appeal behind linear switches.  Do you mind me asking for your opinions on reds:

Do you use that for typing?  Also, do you bottom out or don't consider it a problem?

[tp4tissue]

I went from ergo-clear on my dox, back to stock clears,  now I'm using ergo-blacks, which are reds...

Thanks for that info!    Knowing I will have all these options eases my mind a lot.
I was playing with red demo switch and it kind of grew on me as well - at least I started to understand the appeal behind linear switches.  Do you mind me asking for your opinions on reds:

Do you use that for typing?  Also, do you bottom out or don't consider it a problem?

I use it for everything. Accuracy and speed in terms of typing-transcription is not greatly affected by the type of switch.

Now for a game, very few games outside of rhythm and fighting actually requires precise button input.. 

For something like starcraft and battlefield..  much of it is spammed input, and it's designed around that..

If you had uber precise input, it would not hurt... but it would not help either.. if one cost more than the other.. then you've just thrown money away...

But, again, speed/accuracy is far more on part of the USER, rather than the keyboard.

There is no legitimate reason to "not" bottom out.

It is also impossibly slow if such a "step" was taken to ensure one never bottoms out.. between every single keystroke

[terrpn]

Hm, there were no replies when I started writing that ...

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

Not with clears. [b]It's easy to learn to release the switch just after actuation[/u][/color][/b], as the force rises so sharply, so you avoid the high end of the force curve, leaving a switch that's a nice intermediate weight.

I gave my G80-3000LCQDE (clears) to one of our apprentices, and after he left, the other one swiped the keyboard immediately. The force curve of clears never seemed to bother either of them, and I had it figured out fairly quickly. There's no hard bottoming out (since you learn to release early), and no high force, but the caveat is that pressing a single key by itself can feel very spongy if you don't hit it hard enough to not notice, or light to enough to stop after actuation.

ditto........good commentary

i could not have said it better-- you do learn or train and i no longer bottom out.

it's kind of fun after you have been at this a while, get more boards, switches and familiarize yourself how to type with each switch 

its part of the fun when rotating out or looking for a change

[Pacifist]

Hm, there were no replies when I started writing that ...

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

Not with clears. It's easy to learn to release the switch just after actuation, as the force rises so sharply, so you avoid the high end of the force curve, leaving a switch that's a nice intermediate weight.

I gave my G80-3000LCQDE (clears) to one of our apprentices, and after he left, the other one swiped the keyboard immediately. The force curve of clears never seemed to bother either of them, and I had it figured out fairly quickly. There's no hard bottoming out (since you learn to release early), and no high force, but the caveat is that pressing a single key by itself can feel very spongy if you don't hit it hard enough to not notice, or light to enough to stop after actuation.

note the imo

[terrpn]

Hm, there were no replies when I started writing that ...

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

Not with clears. It's easy to learn to release the switch just after actuation, as the force rises so sharply, so you avoid the high end of the force curve, leaving a switch that's a nice intermediate weight.

I gave my G80-3000LCQDE (clears) to one of our apprentices, and after he left, the other one swiped the keyboard immediately. The force curve of clears never seemed to bother either of them, and I had it figured out fairly quickly. There's no hard bottoming out (since you learn to release early), and no high force, but the caveat is that pressing a single key by itself can feel very spongy if you don't hit it hard enough to not notice, or light to enough to stop after actuation.

note the imo

right...............good point

[Pacifist]

Hm, there were no replies when I started writing that ...

imo you'll need some strong fingers to type on them stock effectively. I just got a board with blacks today after using only browns and it was strenuous. But slap on some lighter springs and its good

Not with clears. It's easy to learn to release the switch just after actuation, as the force rises so sharply, so you avoid the high end of the force curve, leaving a switch that's a nice intermediate weight.

I gave my G80-3000LCQDE (clears) to one of our apprentices, and after he left, the other one swiped the keyboard immediately. The force curve of clears never seemed to bother either of them, and I had it figured out fairly quickly. There's no hard bottoming out (since you learn to release early), and no high force, but the caveat is that pressing a single key by itself can feel very spongy if you don't hit it hard enough to not notice, or light to enough to stop after actuation.

note the imo

right...............good point

some people have stronger fingers, others have weaker ones. I have weaker ones and thus prefer lighter springs

[mooswa]

But, again, speed/accuracy is far more on part of the USER, rather than the keyboard.

I agree with that; I am picking the switch just for the joy of typing.

There is no legitimate reason to "not" bottom out.

I find bottoming out unpleasant.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I guess I'm David now : )

There's no "imo" — clears aren't that stiff down to the actuation point. If clears tire you, the mistake you're making is trying to bottom them out, and that's what you learn not to do due its unusual if not unique force curve.

[rowdy]

I quite like bottoming out with MX blacks and greens.  i probably do so slightly less with the greens than the blacks.

I guess I just like noisy keyboards

[Pacifist]

I guess I'm David now : )

There's no "imo" — clears aren't that stiff down to the actuation point. If clears tire you, the mistake you're making is trying to bottom them out, and that's what you learn not to do due its unusual if not unique force curve.

by that logic, then if I put some super stiff spring in it, then it'll still be easy to type with if I don't bottom out

also please look at
from http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46449.0

for the light end, the starting point is lighter than clears. if you're used to light springs, stock clears will feel heavier to you

at actuation, clears are wayyy heavier than light cherry switches

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Cherry MX clear is actually a fairly normal weight up to actuation (but not after that point). It's Cherry MX blue and brown that are under-weight.

That's always been my beef with MX switches, and why whole MX green keyboards are now on sale — puts a bit of meat into the switch.

The only switch I've actually used that felt absolutely spot on out the box (for me, anyway) was Matias quiet, but everyone's preference varies.

[Pacifist]

Cherry MX clear is actually a fairly normal weight up to actuation (but not after that point). It's Cherry MX blue and brown that are under-weight.

That's always been my beef with MX switches, and why whole MX green keyboards are now on sale — puts a bit of meat into the switch.

The only switch I've actually used that felt absolutely spot on out the box (for me, anyway) was Matias quiet, but everyone's preference varies.

See? Its personal preference. I'm used to browns, so I find clears too stiff in comparison
It is a matter of "imo" --all switches are like that

[mooswa]

at actuation, clears are wayyy heavier than light cherry switches

But for tactile switches, actuation is not the full story, I dare to say it is not important at all.  The tactile point is the story:

Blues     60       
Browns  55
Clears    65

Once your finger passes that pressure point, it blows all the way until it reaches the point in the spring curve with the same force:

Blues      bottom 
Browns   3.5 mm
Clears    2.25 mm

Hence, in theory, your finger would need to perform less amount of work (force x distance) with Clears then with lighter Blues or Browns and your fingers should tire less. 

Clear it is for me!
  Wow wouldn't addicts  go to anything to justify their next hit.

[terran5992]

at actuation, clears are wayyy heavier than light cherry switches

But for tactile switches, actuation is not the full story, I dare to say it is not important at all.  The tactile point is the story:

Blues     60       
Browns  55
Clears    65

Once your finger passes that pressure point, it blows all the way until it reaches the point in the spring curve with the same force:

Blues      bottom 
Browns   3.5 mm
Clears    2.25 mm

Hence, in theory, your finger would need to perform less amount of work (force x distance) with Clears then with lighter Blues or Browns and your fingers should tire less. 

Clear it is for me!
  Wow wouldn't addicts  go to anything to justify their next hit.

0.o keyboard science

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It is a matter of "imo" --all switches are like that

No. You'll find that Cherry MX is the odd series out. Beats me why they made that series so light — actuation in the 60–70 cN range is normal. Compare Cherry MX blue and brown to buckling spring (any type), Alps, Omron, most scissor switches, and so many other switches, and Cherry MX typically comes out underweight.

That's why there's still so much debate over them — not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch, and a lot of people class MX brown as linear. Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Granted, plenty of people do like Cherry MX, but you shouldn't find clears fatiguing if you only depress them to clear the actuation point, as they really aren't that stiff, and the tactile point is a nice soft curve that avoids the jarring of some highly tactile rubber domes.

Once you get used to clears, it can be surprising just how light they feel.

[Pacifist]

It is a matter of "imo" --all switches are like that

No. You'll find that Cherry MX is the odd series out. Beats me why they made that series so light — actuation in the 60–70 cN range is normal. Compare Cherry MX blue and brown to buckling spring (any type), Alps, Omron, most scissor switches, and so many other switches, and Cherry MX typically comes out underweight.

That's why there's still so much debate over them — not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch, and a lot of people class MX brown as linear. Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Granted, plenty of people do like Cherry MX, but you shouldn't find clears fatiguing if you only depress them to clear the actuation point, as they really aren't that stiff, and the tactile point is a nice soft curve that avoids the jarring of some highly tactile rubber domes.

Once you get used to clears, it can be surprising just how light they feel.

all switches are your own personal preference

i prefer light cherry switches

you can go use your stiff switches

its your own dam choice for which switch to choose. You can't make me get stiff switches and I can't get you to get light switches because we both prefer one over the other

[Daniel Beardsmore]

You can't prefer away facts. That would make for a hugely enjoyable universe, but it's not going to happen.

[Pacifist]

>You can't prefer away facts. That would make for a hugely enjoyable universe, but it's not going to happen.

Sure its a fact that clears require a certain amount of force and browns require another amount of force, but its your own goddam opinion on which one you use. stop trying to stuff stock clears down my throat

>not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch

To my own personal fingers, they aren't used to heavy switches. thus its my own personal preference to prefer light over heavy

>Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Once again, note the "balance"
In your eyes the balance is the matias switches. ITS YOUR OWN OPINION. Some people like linear switches, some people like clicky switches. Its all personal preference which one is best for you

[SpAmRaY]

>You can't prefer away facts. That would make for a hugely enjoyable universe, but it's not going to happen.

Sure its a fact that clears require a certain amount of force and browns require another amount of force, but its your own goddam opinion on which one you use. stop trying to stuff stock clears down my throat

>not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch

To my own personal fingers, they aren't used to heavy switches. thus its my own personal preference to prefer light over heavy

>Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Once again, note the "balance"
In your eyes the balance is the matias switches. ITS YOUR OWN OPINION. Some people like linear switches, some people like clicky switches. Its all personal preference which one is best for you

Have you tried stock clears?

[Pacifist]

>You can't prefer away facts. That would make for a hugely enjoyable universe, but it's not going to happen.

Sure its a fact that clears require a certain amount of force and browns require another amount of force, but its your own goddam opinion on which one you use. stop trying to stuff stock clears down my throat

>not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch

To my own personal fingers, they aren't used to heavy switches. thus its my own personal preference to prefer light over heavy

>Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Once again, note the "balance"
In your eyes the balance is the matias switches. ITS YOUR OWN OPINION. Some people like linear switches, some people like clicky switches. Its all personal preference which one is best for you

Have you tried stock clears?

tried em once. was too fatiguing on my fingers to type so i stopped

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Common complaint about Cherry MX switches? Too light.
Common complaint about IBM Model M and Alps? Too stiff.

Preference is preference, but there are clear trends in way these keyboards are perceived. The amount of effort invested in ergo clears should tell you something about the problems Cherry have in trying to get a good tactile switch (within the limitations of the MX platform, which is part of the problem — the ideal feel may not be attainable with their one-shape-fits-all ramp design). Clears are probably on the top end of the balance range—I would say that overall preference appears to be towards something a bit lighter—but they are by no means stiff: give something like a Model M or Matias Tactile Pro 3 a go sometime. Or an Acer! Compared to pretty much everything else out there, Cherry MX brown and blue keyboards are light!

Think of it this way. You start work at a new company. This company isn't going to have an à la carte trolley of keyboards where you can choose anything you want, any switch, any weight. Chances are you'll get some dire rubber dome. But imagine the company wants everyone to have something usable (I did read of a company that bought all their staff Topres!!) — what would you choose as your stock product for a whole office? I think Matias actually found something that sits nicely between the extremes, and so far it seems to be a well-received switch. It just needs a bit of lube — that might be to do with the strange one-arm actuator leaf inherited from the Alps/Forward SKBM design (I don't actually who designed Alps simplified! I have a 1991 spec sheet with Forward's name on it, so it may be that Alps had nothing whatsoever to do with the design, simply allowing their manufacturing partner Forward to make them with the Alps logo on.)

Dell introduced a nice keyboard a few years back, the KB1421 (no idea who the OEM is) — smooth and tactile rubber dome, like Topre but with a sharper feel. Sadly it's still fairly loose and rattly. My biggest concern with those isn't the switches, is that all the bleeding letters come off the keys : P (Not for most people, but in worst cases, you can ruin the pad printing in a few months.) That and the keycaps are probably ABS, so you don't get very long before it looks horrible.

[Pacifist]

Common complaint about Cherry MX switches? Too light.
Common complaint about IBM Model M and Alps? Too stiff.

Preference is preference, but there are clear trends in way these keyboards are perceived. The amount of effort invested in ergo clears should tell you something about the problems Cherry have in trying to get a good tactile switch (within the limitations of the MX platform, which is part of the problem — the ideal feel may not be attainable with their one-shape-fits-all ramp design). Clears are probably on the top end of the balance range—I would say that overall preference appears to be towards something a bit lighter—but they are by no means stiff: give something like a Model M or Matias Tactile Pro 3 a go sometime. Or an Acer! Compared to pretty much everything else out there, Cherry MX brown and blue keyboards are light!

Think of it this way. You start work at a new company. This company isn't going to have an à la carte trolley of keyboards where you can choose anything you want, any switch, any weight. Chances are you'll get some dire rubber dome. But imagine the company wants everyone to have something usable (I did read of a company that bought all their staff Topres!!) — what would you choose as your stock product for a whole office? I think Matias actually found something that sits nicely between the extremes, and so far it seems to be a well-received switch. It just needs a bit of lube — that might be to do with the strange one-arm actuator leaf inherited from the Alps/Forward SKBM design (I don't actually who designed Alps simplified! I have a 1991 spec sheet with Forward's name on it, so it may be that Alps had nothing whatsoever to do with the design, simply allowing their manufacturing partner Forward to make them with the Alps logo on.)

Dell introduced a nice keyboard a few years back, the KB1421 (no idea who the OEM is) — smooth and tactile rubber dome, like Topre but with a sharper feel. Sadly it's still fairly loose and rattly. My biggest concern with those isn't the switches, is that all the bleeding letters come off the keys : P (Not for most people, but in worst cases, you can ruin the pad printing in a few months.) That and the keycaps are probably ABS, so you don't get very long before it looks horrible.

yea I get how cherry is light in comparison

but i've been acclimated to browns and thus I find other switches too stiff

[Daniel Beardsmore]

It's not a huge deal making a change from switch to switch once you're used to the idea. It might take a few days to adjust, but it's not like once you've used a particular switch, you're doomed forever!

That said, it took me many months to unlearn years of dire rubber dome habits — I used to pound on my Filco like there was no tomorrow, even though Cherry switches only permit the softest touch due to the hard landing. Not good.

[terrpn]

.............some people have stronger fingers, others have weaker ones. I have weaker ones and thus prefer lighter springs

right- good days with strong fingers then bs's, blues, clears, etc.

fingers are weak- reds, browns, space invaders, linear whatever

happy-happy

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The funny thing is that every single keyboard I've tried that people typically don't like (figuring that, since I'm contrary, I'd be the one person who'd actually like them), I've had to agree with the general consensus that they suck : )

[rowdy]

Common complaint about Cherry MX switches? Too light.
Common complaint about IBM Model M and Alps? Too stiff.

Preference is preference, but there are clear trends in way these keyboards are perceived. The amount of effort invested in ergo clears should tell you something about the problems Cherry have in trying to get a good tactile switch (within the limitations of the MX platform, which is part of the problem — the ideal feel may not be attainable with their one-shape-fits-all ramp design). Clears are probably on the top end of the balance range—I would say that overall preference appears to be towards something a bit lighter—but they are by no means stiff: give something like a Model M or Matias Tactile Pro 3 a go sometime. Or an Acer! Compared to pretty much everything else out there, Cherry MX brown and blue keyboards are light!

Think of it this way. You start work at a new company. This company isn't going to have an à la carte trolley of keyboards where you can choose anything you want, any switch, any weight. Chances are you'll get some dire rubber dome. But imagine the company wants everyone to have something usable (I did read of a company that bought all their staff Topres!!) — what would you choose as your stock product for a whole office? I think Matias actually found something that sits nicely between the extremes, and so far it seems to be a well-received switch. It just needs a bit of lube — that might be to do with the strange one-arm actuator leaf inherited from the Alps/Forward SKBM design (I don't actually who designed Alps simplified! I have a 1991 spec sheet with Forward's name on it, so it may be that Alps had nothing whatsoever to do with the design, simply allowing their manufacturing partner Forward to make them with the Alps logo on.)

Dell introduced a nice keyboard a few years back, the KB1421 (no idea who the OEM is) — smooth and tactile rubber dome, like Topre but with a sharper feel. Sadly it's still fairly loose and rattly. My biggest concern with those isn't the switches, is that all the bleeding letters come off the keys : P (Not for most people, but in worst cases, you can ruin the pad printing in a few months.) That and the keycaps are probably ABS, so you don't get very long before it looks horrible.

Very nicely put, David

Wish I worked somewhere where we had decent keyboards bought for us, although my boss did buy me a Ducky Shine, but that was a one-off special arrangement.  I am not even using it any more (one of the other guys is borrowing it).

[Linkbane]

It is a matter of "imo" --all switches are like that

No. You'll find that Cherry MX is the odd series out. Beats me why they made that series so light — actuation in the 60–70 cN range is normal. Compare Cherry MX blue and brown to buckling spring (any type), Alps, Omron, most scissor switches, and so many other switches, and Cherry MX typically comes out underweight.

That's why there's still so much debate over them — not everyone can acclimatise to such a weak switch, and a lot of people class MX brown as linear. Matias actually found the balance: not too light (you don't feel like you can depress switches by breathing on them), not too heavy, not balky (the tactile peak is a signal, not an obstacle), and the tactile peak is fairly sharp, unlike Topre where it's too stretched out and it feels a bit gooey and odd as a result, but not jagged like many tactile switches. That's quite a feat considering the limitations of click leaf switches — but they did spend a lot of time perfecting it. (There are still indications that they need factory-applied lube.)

Granted, plenty of people do like Cherry MX, but you shouldn't find clears fatiguing if you only depress them to clear the actuation point, as they really aren't that stiff, and the tactile point is a nice soft curve that avoids the jarring of some highly tactile rubber domes.

Once you get used to clears, it can be surprising just how light they feel.

I don't see why you call them a 'weak' switch, 'light' seems much more appropriate as they are mechanically very reliable for mechanical switches.
The whole point is that lighter is better, until it becomes so light that you register accidental keypresses. Alps doesn't seem to be a good switch for typists at all, because it actuates near the top and is hard to avoid bottoming out. Lighter switches just let people type more quickly, as there is less force required to input something. Anyone with a decent speed shouldn't be banging like a rabies-infected monkey on their board. A brown should never be anything close to linear if you are using finesse, which seems to be lost upon many people insisting that they need to mitigate bottoming out (i.e. banging in a manner similar to a rabies-infected monkey) by using rubber rings, when instead they could just not bottom out, and type more quickly and accurately.

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

[1pq]

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

It's the British spelling for "acclimatize."

I'd argue that blues are light enough to cause some accidental key presses. When I type on stiffer switches, I find my accuracy is much greater. Plus, it doesn't take that long to get used to stiffer switches. I can type just as fast on my Model M as on my MX Blue board after I've used it for a couple of days, just because my fingers have gotten stronger. While it requires more force, it doesn't require as much effort.

[Linkbane]

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

It's the British spelling for "acclimatize."

I'd argue that blues are light enough to cause some accidental key presses. When I type on stiffer switches, I find my accuracy is much greater. Plus, it doesn't take that long to get used to stiffer switches. I can type just as fast on my Model M as on my MX Blue board after I've used it for a couple of days, just because my fingers have gotten stronger. While it requires more force, it doesn't require as much effort.

That's way too deep for me. Effort =/= force required to use?
And perhaps. I suppose that some have to acclimate, as David had said. I find it completely impossible to type as fast using heavier switches. I can type in the mid-130 without an issue, but anything higher requires tactile light switches (blue, brown, rubber dome, scissor).

[rowdy]

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

It's the British spelling for "acclimatize."

Heh you could almost say it is the non-American spelling for that word

[SpAmRaY]

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

It's the British spelling for "acclimatize."

Heh you could almost say it is the non-American spelling for that word

so in other words, in Australia you would just say, 'grab a fosters'

[rowdy]

By the way, is 'acclimatise' a word in a different dialect of English than American?

It's the British spelling for "acclimatize."

Heh you could almost say it is the non-American spelling for that word

so in other words, in Australia you would just say, 'grab a fosters'

I would say "grab a coldie" 'cause that's what I prefer.