Adjust typing style between switches (mainly MX to Topre)

[frvrngn]

Just curious if other Topre users slow down at all when using Topre boards AFTER using a MX board, of any switch type.  Especially if they swap between boards often, say work and home.

Reason asking: I have a cheap Topre - the Type Heaven.  I use it quite a bit in my office when I need to be more quiet.  I am pretty sure I love the feeling of the board, it used to be my favorite switch.  The smoothness and that Thock sound are just something special.  My problem arose when I got my Ergo Clear board and started using it more since it was new and I wanted to give it a good trial run.  The Ergo Clear is by far my favorite MX switch that I have now tried (tried all except Black).  Not sure what it is about the switch, I just love the feel of it.  I bottom a lot on it vs. some of my other boards but it doesnt seem to bother me at all.

Well after using the Ergo Clears for a good bit I switched back to the TH and I was shocked at how strange it felt.  Somebody posted here a while back that Topre feels a lot like a piano and I have to say that is pretty spot on for me.  There is a very damped, slowed down feeling when key pressing.  I feel like I need to be much more deliberate when using Topre.  Where on the Ergos I could just lightly stab at the keys very quickly, the Topres resist that quick stab and I need to consciously press the key down to the activation point.  Doing so really slows down my typing speed.  If I really hammer away at it then my max speed is the same.  Its when I am just casually typing away that I really notice the slow down and I tried it using a couple typing tests and it did show that I slowed down quite a bit.

For me I guess the Ergos have the quick jab of the key and quick bump for feedback vs. the Topre which feels more like typing on stiff Jello or a Marshmallow.  Again, I love the smoothness and sound of the Topre I was just shocked at how odd and off it felt after using the MX board for a couple weeks.  My first few hours using the TH board were really awkward and felt terrible until I started getting my fingers used to it again.

[tbc]

I am definitely slower on my topre. the switch forces me to bottom out where was I only botto m out around 15% of the time on blues.  I have wayyy less 'travelling 'on my MX boards.

[1pq]

Yeah, switching between topre and MX feels horrible. It's best to get used to one and stick with it, IMO. You kind of get used to pressing the topres all the way down, and once you've used it for a while, it seems pretty natural. Oddly enough, though, going from Topre back to MX feels fine; only the other way around is hard...

[frvrngn]

Yeah, switching between topre and MX feels horrible. It's best to get used to one and stick with it, IMO. You kind of get used to pressing the topres all the way down, and once you've used it for a while, it seems pretty natural. Oddly enough, though, going from Topre back to MX feels fine; only the other way around is hard...

I noticed that today.  I started using the TH this past weekend and my speed has slowly gone back up.  I got out the Ergos just to see if maybe it was something else and they felt great after about a minute of use.  At first I was really bottoming out hard on them since I was used to pressing down on the Topre switch but then things lightened back up and I was off and running. 

I am back on the TH and it still feels weird!  Smooth, silky, dampened, but weird (and slow!).

[1pq]

I'm so jealous of your clears! I'm hoping to get my hands on some clears soon, and perhaps try out the ergo-clear mod. Which springs did you use?
I imagine eventually I'll end up selling my Topre. It's certainly very unique, but I prefer cherries. I just need to expand out from only using blues...but unfortunately that isn't very economical :-/

[frvrngn]

Who ever said this hobby was economical?!  I honestly don't know what switches were used on my board, I bought it modded here. I think they are pretty light from the feel and not the "normal" 62g springs that seem to be preferred for the ergo mod. Definitely my favorite MX switch!

[rowdy]

I find that I am generally faster at typing on the HHKB, but yes, there is a short period of adjustment when starting to use HHKB at home compared to using MX (QFS MX green atm) at work all day.

Conversely after using HHKB at home all weekend I have to adjust back to MX green at work.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Swapping between Topre and MX brown is interesting. I don't honestly know whether I type faster on Topre or browns, but the low resistance of browns seems as though I can type faster on it, but maybe it's just they're so much louder. MX to Topre feels odd. I used to find that Topre to MX always felt so much nicer, but the last swap, brown just felt stupidly light until I readjusted.

MX brown remains for me the perfect keyboard for typing large amounts of text, as it's tactile but not in-your-face tactile, and light enough as to not be bothersome.

I was playing with a light linear keyboard the other day (some defective, cheap and nasty Oriental Tech OK-100M), and I was surprised how nice it felt (excluding the keys that probably never worked from new), and moreover, that MX brown feels surprisingly tactile in comparison, at least five times as tactile as I perceive it normally. For me at least, MX brown's tactility is sublime and it goes unnoticed until I compare with linear, then I notice it. However, those people who compare brown and red don't ever seem to notice this. Compared to Topre, though, brown does feel linear

[MKULTRA]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

[tbc]

I find that I am generally faster at typing on the HHKB, but yes, there is a short period of adjustment when starting to use HHKB at home compared to using MX (QFS MX green atm) at work all day.

Conversely after using HHKB at home all weekend I have to adjust back to MX green at work.

i'd be surprised if anyone can type fast on a green board.  those are heavy suckers.

[Linkbane]

I find that I am generally faster at typing on the HHKB, but yes, there is a short period of adjustment when starting to use HHKB at home compared to using MX (QFS MX green atm) at work all day.

Conversely after using HHKB at home all weekend I have to adjust back to MX green at work.

i'd be surprised if anyone can type fast on a green board.  those are heavy suckers.

Can't type longer than a few minutes at my average speed without dropping sharply. Great for accuracy, but you shouldn't need heaviness once you've trained well.

[tp4tissue]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

Most GH-level proficient users could do 120wpm on ANY keyboard within a few runs.

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...

[Linkbane]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

Most GH-level proficient users could do 120wpm on ANY keyboard within a few runs.

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...

Show Image

I would push away an MX Black before it got close to me.  ;D
In fact, many of my records are set on dome keyboards, but I attribute it to the fact that at school and midday I am alert and most active, whereas in the evening I'm quite sluggish and tired, especially after a long night's practice.

[terran5992]

I type about even speed on both

[rowdy]

I find that I am generally faster at typing on the HHKB, but yes, there is a short period of adjustment when starting to use HHKB at home compared to using MX (QFS MX green atm) at work all day.

Conversely after using HHKB at home all weekend I have to adjust back to MX green at work.

i'd be surprised if anyone can type fast on a green board.  those are heavy suckers.

My typing is about normal on greens and blacks.  And BS, FWIW.

[Emospence]

Feel wise is dependent on the user, I prefer Topre

As for typing speed, I don't notice a difference

[BlackWidowMan777]

I use a program called Klavaro which measures overall speed, accuracy and fluidity when typing out a passage. You don't pass the test unless you have over 97% accuracy, over 50wpm and over 70% fluidity. Now this is actually more difficult than it sounds, especially the fluidity part, which is a measure of how evenly you stroke the keys. In the old days on typewriters fluidity was considered very important to being a proficient typist. I have found by practicing on this program that I have improved typing speed by learning how to be more fluent.

Now, i have kept statistics on all klavaro results and also for typeracer and to a lesser extent tenfastfingers.

I once used my Realforce 55g for 10 days straight and could maybe 3 passes on Klavaro, whereas yesterday using the Unicomp I pumped out about 6 in one day. I have most passes on the BW, Matias MQP as you can see below:

 

So while the Topre feels great it is not really conducive to gaining your best typing speeds. There is something about it that makes it just as difficult to maintain a good rhythm while typing as with a rubber dome  , BUT you can type for long periods of time without feeling any pain or getting fatigued and it feels so nice.

In terms of that piano key, anyone else own a SGI Granite? Now, that feels like a piano!

[BlackWidowMan777]

Actually, why don't we all use Klavaro, because whether on linux or windows you can elect to have your scores placed on a world leader board and this is a way we can all have friendly competition while practising in our own time and it will let you gauge typing speed/feel across your different mechanical keyboards.

[tp4tissue]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

Most GH-level proficient users could do 120wpm on ANY keyboard within a few runs.

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...

Show Image

I would push away an MX Black before it got close to me.  ;D
In fact, many of my records are set on dome keyboards, but I attribute it to the fact that at school and midday I am alert and most active, whereas in the evening I'm quite sluggish and tired, especially after a long night's practice.

Yea sleep/wake cycle has a huge impact on acuity related performance.. slightly after 2pm is your most alert / dextrous time.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...


[/quote]

Some racing car drivers are better than others. But get the number one formula one race car driver to test any number of makes around the nurburgring and you will see a huge difference. Why do you think there is so much cachet surrounding the likes of porsche and ferrari. Like cars, stock keyboards with stock switches are not equal even in the hands of sean wrona.

Some cars like topre are the grand tourers of the world so the Realforce 55g is like a ferrari 456gt. For me cm stealth with greens is the porsche 911 turbo.

Now before Davkol chimes in with different batches of switches and all that, I would say that over a large enough sample we could say that some keyboards are just built for speed and some for comfort and some for both. Some produce a thwock, some a clack, and others a ping. Some feel like sex and some like sh1t.

[tp4tissue]

BW man.. what is your current wpm.. and what do you find about certain keyboards that's actually limiting...

[rowdy]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

Most GH-level proficient users could do 120wpm on ANY keyboard within a few runs.

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...

Show Image

I would push away an MX Black before it got close to me.  ;D
In fact, many of my records are set on dome keyboards, but I attribute it to the fact that at school and midday I am alert and most active, whereas in the evening I'm quite sluggish and tired, especially after a long night's practice.

Yea sleep/wake cycle has a huge impact on acuity related performance.. slightly after 2pm is your most alert / dextrous time.

It is 2:29pm for me, and having just finished "lunch" I am starting to become weary and ready to go home.

Not exactly my most alert time.

[tp4tissue]

It will all depend on the user.  Neither is better or worse for typing speed or feel.

Most GH-level proficient users could do 120wpm on ANY keyboard within a few runs.

Hear us.... the keyboard is not a determinant of speed / performance,  it could be correlated through other means but it is not the cause...

Show Image

I would push away an MX Black before it got close to me.  ;D
In fact, many of my records are set on dome keyboards, but I attribute it to the fact that at school and midday I am alert and most active, whereas in the evening I'm quite sluggish and tired, especially after a long night's practice.

Yea sleep/wake cycle has a huge impact on acuity related performance.. slightly after 2pm is your most alert / dextrous time.

It is 2:29pm for me, and having just finished "lunch" I am starting to become weary and ready to go home.

Not exactly my most alert time.

haha.. well that's the lunch.. not your rhythm

[BlackWidowMan777]

BW man.. what is your current wpm.. and what do you find about certain keyboards that's actually limiting...

My current is 75-88 wpm and I use Qwerty.

When I started into mechanical keyboards I was 30-40 wpm in March.

Because I started with the BW obviously I have used it the most, but with each new acquisition I have put them through their paces by using them exclusively for a week.

What I find helps me is tactility which I equate to some cars steering being more responsive and resulting in better handling overall. So while I'm on fire I can do well on reds, this will not always be the case though because of the lack of tactile bump or click. Blues and greens have both. Between boards with the same switch, such as the ducky and steelseries I find the limiting factor mainly to be the placement of the right shift with the 6gV2. But this can be negated with sticky keys.

With the Das and BW the BW is more crisp for some reason. But there must be other factors I am not aware of in the construction of the two boards that make them sound, feel and perform differently. That is why I liked the idea of at the next convention or meetup having cardboard boxes with cutouts and having numbers of good typists try out the different boards and then tallying up the results.

Some people are obviously so well trained in their muscle memory that they do not require tactility. They are like robots each finger moving to the right spot at warp speed and not deviating too far from home row to achieve good accuracy and may type fastest on reds on average. 

My results are skewed by the fact that I used certain boards earlier on in my gaining more typing skill so I should maybe try all on the same day and test. I could do so blind folded, and see how many lines of "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" I could type perfectly each and with perfect accuracy.

Other people may weigh in on the factors that make different boards even with the exact same switch from the exact same batch more tactile, smooth, etc. These factors may of course include keycap material, type of switch and switch design (alps, topre, mx, or buckling spring), switch mounting, clicky or non-clicky, distance to actuation point and distance to bottoming out, reset point, case construction and flex.

Don't ask me but I can pick up the Matias Mini or unicomp and get 72% fluidity score on klavaro right now but with the topre maybe only after 10 tries. I think the topre while feeling tactile isn't really tactile in that it is not conducive to typing fluidly. You may ask what is conducive to typing fluidly? Tactility eg. audible click and actuation bump; however, while the matias is quiet it is still tactile enough for fluidity. How can you test fluidity? With a metronome. Or using the built in measure in Klavaro.

[yasuo]

BW Man
how do you use a DAS or BW with the same blues but the distance is so far?

[Linkbane]

BW man.. what is your current wpm.. and what do you find about certain keyboards that's actually limiting...

My current is 75-88 wpm and I use Qwerty.

When I started into mechanical keyboards I was 30-40 wpm in March.

Because I started with the BW obviously I have used it the most, but with each new acquisition I have put them through their paces by using them exclusively for a week.

What I find helps me is tactility which I equate to some cars steering being more responsive and resulting in better handling overall. So while I'm on fire I can do well on reds, this will not always be the case though because of the lack of tactile bump or click. Blues and greens have both. Between boards with the same switch, such as the ducky and steelseries I find the limiting factor mainly to be the placement of the right shift with the 6gV2. But this can be negated with sticky keys.

With the Das and BW the BW is more crisp for some reason. But there must be other factors I am not aware of in the construction of the two boards that make them sound, feel and perform differently. That is why I liked the idea of at the next convention or meetup having cardboard boxes with cutouts and having numbers of good typists try out the different boards and then tallying up the results.

Some people are obviously so well trained in their muscle memory that they do not require tactility. They are like robots each finger moving to the right spot at warp speed and not deviating too far from home row to achieve good accuracy and may type fastest on reds on average. 

My results are skewed by the fact that I used certain boards earlier on in my gaining more typing skill so I should maybe try all on the same day and test. I could do so blind folded, and see how many lines of "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" I could type perfectly each and with perfect accuracy.

Other people may weigh in on the factors that make different boards even with the exact same switch from the exact same batch more tactile, smooth, etc. These factors may of course include keycap material, type of switch and switch design (alps, topre, mx, or buckling spring), switch mounting, clicky or non-clicky, distance to actuation point and distance to bottoming out, reset point, case construction and flex.

Don't ask me but I can pick up the Matias Mini or unicomp and get 72% fluidity score on klavaro right now but with the topre maybe only after 10 tries. I think the topre while feeling tactile isn't really tactile in that it is not conducive to typing fluidly. You may ask what is conducive to typing fluidly? Tactility eg. audible click and actuation bump; however, while the matias is quiet it is still tactile enough for fluidity. How can you test fluidity? With a metronome. Or using the built in measure in Klavaro.

Just so you know, I type at about the same speed on Blues as I do on rubber domes. In fact, I recently exceeded my old record of 149 by 5 wpm on a RD. I guarantee that at your level it has nothing to do with keyboard, but rather all about familiarity.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Just so you know, I type at about the same speed on Blues as I do on rubber domes. In fact, I recently exceeded my old record of 149 by 5 wpm on a RD. I guarantee that at your level it has nothing to do with keyboard, but rather all about familiarity.

Then why did it take you so long to improve from 149 to 154? You might've been on a really good day and that must be a damn good rubber dome  )

I bet you couldn't type 160 on any rubber dome I hand you given a week on it.

[Linkbane]

Just so you know, I type at about the same speed on Blues as I do on rubber domes. In fact, I recently exceeded my old record of 149 by 5 wpm on a RD. I guarantee that at your level it has nothing to do with keyboard, but rather all about familiarity.

Then why did it take you so long to improve from 149 to 154? You might've been on a really good day and that must be a damn good rubber dome  )

I bet you couldn't type 160 on any rubber dome I hand you given a week on it.

You're making zero sense. It took me slightly over two weeks to improve, I don't think that's an issue. It was a crappy HP rubber dome at my school computers, I suppose it was rather new if that's what 'good' means to you. There are no 'good' rubber domes to me, they're all equally poor.
And today when I got back I could hardly break 140 on my MX Blue.

Again, I've already said that's it's quite possible that it's just because it's during midday. I can say that I'm not good on linear switches, but that's not because they can't be typed quickly on, but rather that I am very used to a tactile sensation to ensure that I don't bottom out on my Blues.

[BlackWidowMan777]

BW Man
how do you use a DAS or BW with the same blues but the distance is so far?

A very good question. I use it good deal more yes but there is a palpable difference. Since I don't work for Razer  ), why don't I use the Das as much in my pursuit of improved speed and enjoyment?

I'm interested in some of the other stories that come up from other users about their experiences with their favorite typing board. I must've fluked the only BW that wasn't a goddamn lemon lol.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Wow you guys are actually saying that if two cars with different bodies and tires but with the exact same engine (insert exact same cherry mx switch) can be driven at the same speed around a race track by the same driver when he is at the exact same level of mental acuity? This is where I beg to differ. Why are BMW's renowned for their driving characteristics. Are keyboards so identical? Then why the price differences. Are all the differences unrelated to performance?

Can't you see that topres are topres with topre switches and are not the same as cm storms with cherry mx switches.

[Linkbane]

Wow you guys are actually saying that if two cars with different bodies and tires but with the exact same engine (insert exact same cherry mx switch) can be driven at the same speed around a race track by the same driver when he is at the exact same level of mental acuity? This is where I beg to differ. Why are BMW's renowned for their driving characteristics. Are keyboards so identical? Then why the price differences. Are all the differences unrelated to performance?

Can't you see that topres are topres with topre switches and are not the same as cm storms with cherry mx switches.

Zero difference. Typing=/=performance of the keyboard, unless it's really absolute garbage.
That's not an accurate analogy of cars. Sure, in terms of price, perhaps, but performance has nothing to do with the expense. Anyone who can type at around 120 shouldn't have a problem on any keyboard unless it's like a roll-up.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Wow you guys are actually saying that if two cars with different bodies and tires but with the exact same engine (insert exact same cherry mx switch) can be driven at the same speed around a race track by the same driver when he is at the exact same level of mental acuity? This is where I beg to differ. Why are BMW's renowned for their driving characteristics. Are keyboards so identical? Then why the price differences. Are all the differences unrelated to performance?

Can't you see that topres are topres with topre switches and are not the same as cm storms with cherry mx switches.

Zero difference. Typing=/=performance of the keyboard, unless it's really absolute garbage.
That's not an accurate analogy of cars. Sure, in terms of price, perhaps, but performance has nothing to do with the expense. Anyone who can type at around 120 shouldn't have a problem on any keyboard unless it's like a roll-up.

I strongly disagree here. We're talking about absolutes here, where a few tenths of  a second could mean your best time. Klavaro is an absolutely free program you can get from package managers on Linux distros and for windows here: http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/.

Everyone interested should try. Linkbane I am betting fluidity scores and overall test percentages WILL vary quite a bit if people try across their different boards and post the results. Then you can argue whether fluidity is conducive to speed or not. Perhaps that is another argument. I'm not arguing that people should go out and buy a hundred boards to find out. That's why I advocated a means of blind testing. So that people into performance typing do NOT have to buy a whole bunch of boards but may know which ones to choose from.

Once you download Klavaro, press menu and go straight to test 4. Fluidity. This gives you a total score (speed, accuracy, fluidity) and the individual percentages for speed, accuracy and fluidity.

[fuzzybaffy]

I've owned MX boards for very short periods of time (2-3 weeks), and while I've found I've had higher -top- speeds with the Cherry MX Brown board, I also made more typos on them than I do with my Topre, so I think the average WPMs evens out. I haven't done any calculations or measurements, though, so I can't comment for sure.

My average WPM is around 105 on typeracer. My highest was around 135 or so.

[tp4tissue]

this discussion is now entering snake-oil territory..

blackwidowman.. we're only trying to say, you need a bit more experience before you can understand speed keyboarding..

The upper limit is in the user..

It is not correct to compare it to a car, because this is far less complex a task.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Anyone who can type at around 120 shouldn't have a problem on any keyboard unless it's like a roll-up.
[/quote]

Are you saying that anyone driving at 300km/h around a racetrack should be able to do so in whatever car unless it's not a trailer? Yes, he'll be able to do 280-290 on most any but there are such a thing as performance cars.

We're talking same racetrack = same typing passage
Same engine capacity = same cherry mx switch
same driver and alertness and time of day = same typist and alertness and time of day
different make and model of car =/= same lap time
different made and model of keyboard....you tell why at around 120 this comparison with car devolves into nonsense whereas it is applicable to me at my current level?

[BlackWidowMan777]

this discussion is now entering snake-oil territory..

blackwidowman.. we're only trying to say, you need a bit more experience before you can understand speed keyboarding..

The upper limit is in the user..

It is not correct to compare it to a car, because this is far less complex a task.

This is absolutely the smoke and mirrors that is being bandied about that annoys me to no end. Race car driving is a precision sport. Now you are saying elite speed keyboarding is somehow snake oil related, its variables not measurable even though typing is much less complex. Typing is not just pushing a button up and down. Some alps switches are wobbly. We have in the last days all agreed that plate and case contribute to feel. And performance must be related to tactility just as feedback through the tires, steering wheel is to the driver. All he does is sit there and turns the wheel and pushes a few buttons. The work is all done before in practice and in preparing the car. I argue that keyboarding that requires using so many neural pathways with ten fingers is far more complex a task that sitting sweating in a jumpsuit with a helmet on.

[Linkbane]

Wow you guys are actually saying that if two cars with different bodies and tires but with the exact same engine (insert exact same cherry mx switch) can be driven at the same speed around a race track by the same driver when he is at the exact same level of mental acuity? This is where I beg to differ. Why are BMW's renowned for their driving characteristics. Are keyboards so identical? Then why the price differences. Are all the differences unrelated to performance?

Can't you see that topres are topres with topre switches and are not the same as cm storms with cherry mx switches.

Zero difference. Typing=/=performance of the keyboard, unless it's really absolute garbage.
That's not an accurate analogy of cars. Sure, in terms of price, perhaps, but performance has nothing to do with the expense. Anyone who can type at around 120 shouldn't have a problem on any keyboard unless it's like a roll-up.

I strongly disagree here. We're talking about absolutes here, where a few tenths of  a second could mean your best time. Klavaro is an absolutely free program you can get from package managers on Linux distros and for windows here: http://klavaro.sourceforge.net/en/.

Everyone interested should try. Linkbane I am betting fluidity scores and overall test percentages WILL vary quite a bit if people try across their different boards and post the results. Then you can argue whether fluidity is conducive to speed or not. Perhaps that is another argument. I'm not arguing that people should a hundred boards to find out. That's why I advocated a means of blind testing. So that people into performance typing do NOT have to buy a whole bunch of boards but may know which ones to choose from.

Once you download Klavaro, press menu and go straight to test 4. Fluidity. This gives you a total score (speed, accuracy, fluidity) and the individual percentages for speed, accuracy and fluidity.

Have gotten Klavaro a while ago, it has issues on my computer for some reason.
As can obviously be seen, typing at any decent speed requires good flow. It's not conducive to typing, it's a byproduct. Your typing can be as rhythmic and pretty as you like, but if it's, by the mean, slower, it doesn't matter.

By the way, typing is quite completely a personal affair. It is 100% pushing buttons, it has nothing arcane to do with it; typing quickly is very simple, it's just rehashing muscle memory millions of times. The fingers are of course designed to work with each other, and it's not nearly as complex as you make it out to be.

Again, your car analogy is completely false. The car's ability to drive quickly is dictated by its engine, it has nothing to do with its driver in terms of speed. Someone holding the throttle as a racing champ vs me on a straight strip will accelerate at the same rate. The opposite is true with keyboards. I agree with tp, this is not nearly so complex a task. Every typing situation is nearly the exact same, with a keyboard and things to copy. Don't waste your time analyzing things which don't exist. Perhaps tactility is important for some, but it's evidence enough that typists can reach in the 180 wpm+ without using a mechanical that switch type has minimal effect on speed.

[BlackWidowMan777]

Wow, I'll let you re-read your post Link at your own leisure. Basically, each typist is different but there will be a board out there that will on average make him type faster - for him/her.

[Linkbane]

Wow, I'll let you re-read your post Link at your own leisure. Basically, each typist is different but there will be a board out there that will on average make him type faster - for him/her.

No, there's a board he/she will get used to and therefore be better with.
I think that you need to reread your posts, by thinking that using keyboard will make you faster at typing. Perhaps that's why you don't improve, because you chalk it up to your equipment rather than your actual ability?

[tuxsavvy]

Wow, I'll let you re-read your post Link at your own leisure. Basically, each typist is different but there will be a board out there that will on average make him type faster - for him/her.

No, there's a board he/she will get used to and therefore be better with.
I think that you need to reread your posts, by thinking that using keyboard will make you faster at typing. Perhaps that's why you don't improve, because you chalk it up to your equipment rather than your actual ability?

Haha I don't like to admit it but in the very same irony that by me getting HHKB in the first place does not automagically improve my typing speeds. I personally average around 60-65 wpm on RD keyboards, when I switched to either Topre or simplfied Alps I have noticed that my speed dropped slightly to 62 wpm. It definitely has nothing to do with the keyboard technology but just how fast one can remember the keys on their keyboard and hitting it at the right time. Hence ...

As can obviously be seen, typing at any decent speed requires good flow. It's not conducive to typing, it's a byproduct. Your typing can be as rhythmic and pretty as you like, but if it's, by the mean, slower, it doesn't matter.

By the way, typing is quite completely a personal affair. It is 100% pushing buttons, it has nothing arcane to do with it; typing quickly is very simple, it's just rehashing muscle memory millions of times. The fingers are of course designed to work with each other, and it's not nearly as complex as you make it out to be.

As well as ...

The upper limit is in the user..

Is very true at the end of the day. I guess a much better analogy would have been if lets say one average driver goes for a race around Nürburgring clocks in X amounts of minutes, passes on the car keys for the exact same car but this time with a seasoned professional racer. There is a very good chance that the seasoned professional racer would most likely be able to clock at much better times on the first go. Why? the seasoned professional race driver would have known the circuit virtually inside out like the back of their hands and plus given the fact that there are chances the professional racer would have had to race various cars during their lifetime, they would have a basic theory of how the car they are supposed to race/drive in would handle when driven on the said circuit. Of course this is just barely skimming the tip of the iceberg. A professional driver would drive better at the limits to the conditions imposed by the weather whereas there are chances that the average drive would have taken a more cautious approach just to be safe.

It does not matter all that much what the car is in question at the end of the day. Like keyboards, they are just an "intermediate" or a "medium". Handing over the rights to drive a real F1 car on any random circuit does not automagically make the average bloke as fast as a seasoned professional driver. Sure the average driver would clock a really fast time, faster than say if they were to drive a 911, a Ferrari or even just a Civic on the same circuit but that is only assuming if the average driver could handle and iron out all the quirks of driving a F1.

The real limitation is all to do with one's capability to type fast in this case has to do with their physical abilities. Buying a fancy HHKB Pro for instance when you can only use one finger at a time does not make you as fast as those as touch typists regardless of which keyboard they are using at the time to make the score.

Just as typing with a few fingers on the keys (i.e. mostly hunt pecking method) is not an issue with the keyboard in question, it is mainly to do with the typist in question. Even if the layout is different it is still up to the typist to make use of their memory for instance to make sure they know which keys are where and how to access them quickly as well as efficiently. This was partially why we have all these fancy keyboard layouts (like QWERTY, DVORAK, COLEMAK, AZERTY, QWERTZ, etc) as well as the fact that we would be faster at data inputting had we learnt touch typing because it makes us remember the layout in our heads for instance.
 

[Linkbane]

Wow, I'll let you re-read your post Link at your own leisure. Basically, each typist is different but there will be a board out there that will on average make him type faster - for him/her.

No, there's a board he/she will get used to and therefore be better with.
I think that you need to reread your posts, by thinking that using keyboard will make you faster at typing. Perhaps that's why you don't improve, because you chalk it up to your equipment rather than your actual ability?

Haha I don't like to admit it but in the very same irony that by me getting HHKB in the first place does not automagically improve my typing speeds. I personally average around 60-65 wpm on RD keyboards, when I switched to either Topre or simplfied Alps I have noticed that my speed dropped slightly to 62 wpm. It definitely has nothing to do with the keyboard technology but just how fast one can remember the keys on their keyboard and hitting it at the right time. Hence ...

As can obviously be seen, typing at any decent speed requires good flow. It's not conducive to typing, it's a byproduct. Your typing can be as rhythmic and pretty as you like, but if it's, by the mean, slower, it doesn't matter.

By the way, typing is quite completely a personal affair. It is 100% pushing buttons, it has nothing arcane to do with it; typing quickly is very simple, it's just rehashing muscle memory millions of times. The fingers are of course designed to work with each other, and it's not nearly as complex as you make it out to be.

As well as ...

The upper limit is in the user..

Is very true at the end of the day. I guess a much better analogy would have been if lets say one average driver goes for a race around Nürburgring clocks in X amounts of minutes, passes on the car keys for the exact same car but this time with a seasoned professional racer. There is a very good chance that the seasoned professional racer would most likely be able to clock at much better times on the first go. Why? the seasoned professional race driver would have known the circuit virtually inside out like the back of their hands and plus given the fact that there are chances the professional racer would have had to race various cars during their lifetime, they would have a basic theory of how the car they are supposed to race/drive in would handle when driven on the said circuit. Of course this is just barely skimming the tip of the iceberg. A professional driver would drive better at the limits to the conditions imposed by the weather whereas there are chances that the average drive would have taken a more cautious approach just to be safe.

It does not matter all that much what the car is in question at the end of the day. Like keyboards, they are just an "intermediate" or a "medium". Handing over the rights to drive a real F1 car on any random circuit does not automagically make the average bloke as fast as a seasoned professional driver. Sure the average driver would clock a really fast time, faster than say if they were to drive a 911, a Ferrari or even just a Civic on the same circuit but that is only assuming if the average driver could handle and iron out all the quirks of driving a F1.

The real limitation is all to do with one's capability to type fast in this case has to do with their physical abilities. Buying a fancy HHKB Pro for instance when you can only use one finger at a time does not make you as fast as those as touch typists regardless of which keyboard they are using at the time to make the score.

Just as typing with a few fingers on the keys (i.e. mostly hunt pecking method) is not an issue with the keyboard in question, it is mainly to do with the typist in question. Even if the layout is different it is still up to the typist to make use of their memory for instance to make sure they know which keys are where and how to access them quickly as well as efficiently. This was partially why we have all these fancy keyboard layouts (like QWERTY, DVORAK, COLEMAK, AZERTY, QWERTZ, etc) as well as the fact that we would be faster at data inputting had we learnt touch typing because it makes us remember the layout in our heads for instance.

Thanks for taking the time to write out such a detailed response. Everything that I wanted to say and more.

[tuxsavvy]

Wow, I'll let you re-read your post Link at your own leisure. Basically, each typist is different but there will be a board out there that will on average make him type faster - for him/her.

No, there's a board he/she will get used to and therefore be better with.
I think that you need to reread your posts, by thinking that using keyboard will make you faster at typing. Perhaps that's why you don't improve, because you chalk it up to your equipment rather than your actual ability?

Haha I don't like to admit it but in the very same irony that by me getting HHKB in the first place does not automagically improve my typing speeds. I personally average around 60-65 wpm on RD keyboards, when I switched to either Topre or simplfied Alps I have noticed that my speed dropped slightly to 62 wpm. It definitely has nothing to do with the keyboard technology but just how fast one can remember the keys on their keyboard and hitting it at the right time. Hence ...

As can obviously be seen, typing at any decent speed requires good flow. It's not conducive to typing, it's a byproduct. Your typing can be as rhythmic and pretty as you like, but if it's, by the mean, slower, it doesn't matter.

By the way, typing is quite completely a personal affair. It is 100% pushing buttons, it has nothing arcane to do with it; typing quickly is very simple, it's just rehashing muscle memory millions of times. The fingers are of course designed to work with each other, and it's not nearly as complex as you make it out to be.

As well as ...

The upper limit is in the user..

Is very true at the end of the day. I guess a much better analogy would have been if lets say one average driver goes for a race around Nürburgring clocks in X amounts of minutes, passes on the car keys for the exact same car but this time with a seasoned professional racer. There is a very good chance that the seasoned professional racer would most likely be able to clock at much better times on the first go. Why? the seasoned professional race driver would have known the circuit virtually inside out like the back of their hands and plus given the fact that there are chances the professional racer would have had to race various cars during their lifetime, they would have a basic theory of how the car they are supposed to race/drive in would handle when driven on the said circuit. Of course this is just barely skimming the tip of the iceberg. A professional driver would drive better at the limits to the conditions imposed by the weather whereas there are chances that the average drive would have taken a more cautious approach just to be safe.

It does not matter all that much what the car is in question at the end of the day. Like keyboards, they are just an "intermediate" or a "medium". Handing over the rights to drive a real F1 car on any random circuit does not automagically make the average bloke as fast as a seasoned professional driver. Sure the average driver would clock a really fast time, faster than say if they were to drive a 911, a Ferrari or even just a Civic on the same circuit but that is only assuming if the average driver could handle and iron out all the quirks of driving a F1.

The real limitation is all to do with one's capability to type fast in this case has to do with their physical abilities. Buying a fancy HHKB Pro for instance when you can only use one finger at a time does not make you as fast as those as touch typists regardless of which keyboard they are using at the time to make the score.

Just as typing with a few fingers on the keys (i.e. mostly hunt pecking method) is not an issue with the keyboard in question, it is mainly to do with the typist in question. Even if the layout is different it is still up to the typist to make use of their memory for instance to make sure they know which keys are where and how to access them quickly as well as efficiently. This was partially why we have all these fancy keyboard layouts (like QWERTY, DVORAK, COLEMAK, AZERTY, QWERTZ, etc) as well as the fact that we would be faster at data inputting had we learnt touch typing because it makes us remember the layout in our heads for instance.

Thanks for taking the time to write out such a detailed response. Everything that I wanted to say and more.

No worries, actually I forgot to cover one more bit of area after re-reading it now.

Realistically a touch typist would feel it better when typing on a mechanical keyboard, however the feel is virtually different on each of the switches (when comparing to say Cherry MX vs Topre, Buckling spring, Hall effect, Alps, etc) and as such when touch typing at a fairly fast (or faster) rate it makes somewhat minimal sense to for instance take out on Cherry MX just because it will wobble on "rebounce" and that would directly translate to slower speeds.

I will happily admit that touch typing on my HHKB feels nice and refined as opposed to my old simplified Alps switch or even just a plain old RD keyboard but the difference in speed when I really want to type fast is quite minimal. It may only feel that I am superficially typing a little faster but I guess that is the sort of feeling that other touch typist with mechanical keyboards would also feel. I guess it is the feeling of being rewarded for using mechanical switch over the idea of some cheap RD that is already worn. The speed variances are somewhat superficial really, one could go as far as admitting that their fingers are thanking them for using mechanical keyboard but that again does not necessarily translate to.. say more than 1.5* the performance of raising one's nominal typing speed. There maybe differences but again as pointed out by Linkbane already that it is minimal.

Again, your car analogy is completely false. The car's ability to drive quickly is dictated by its engine, it has nothing to do with its driver in terms of speed. Someone holding the throttle as a racing champ vs me on a straight strip will accelerate at the same rate. The opposite is true with keyboards. I agree with tp, this is not nearly so complex a task. Every typing situation is nearly the exact same, with a keyboard and things to copy. Don't waste your time analyzing things which don't exist. Perhaps tactility is important for some, but it's evidence enough that typists can reach in the 180 wpm+ without using a mechanical that switch type has minimal effect on speed.

I'll happily admit that typing on my HHKB feels insanely nice. It is kind of like being in the back seats of a Maybach, but it does not necessarily make me type faster than what I can normally do. Maybe I may only gain 1-2 wpm extra if I'm lucky but it is still the limitations of what I can do without trying to learn more on how to type faster.
 

[MKULTRA]

God I hate these threads. Different people prefer different switches. Different people will type faster or slower on different switches.  There is no such thing as a "typing switch" or a "gaming switch" it all depends on the user's preference.

[terran5992]

God I hate these threads. Different people prefer different switches. Different people will type faster or slower on different switches.  There is no such thing as a "typing switch" or a "gaming switch" it all depends on the user's preference.

New users dont know the search bar exists

[frvrngn]

I am far from new here even with my low post count and this wasnt to bring up the flame wars that ensue when Topre vs. MX shows up.  Oh, I also use the search function quite a bit even when it doesnt return very good results... 

It was interesting reading about ultimate typing speeds that was brought up.  I completely agree its 99% user for out right speed.  Its muscle memory and practice.  I am sure if Link didnt practice quite a bit he would never hit 150WPM as a casual typist.  He seems to love to strive for the fastest speed possible and is willing to put in the work for it.  An elite typist would/should be able to hit pretty close to their max on several different keyboards as long as the layout is the same.  It may not all happen on the same day at the same time, but give them a small amount of time to get used to the board, even a day, and I bet they could get close to their max.

My original point for this thread was that I got really thrown off by the feel of Topre after getting so used to the Ergo Clears.  My typing style really needed to change switching back to the Topre and it slowed me down.  It wasnt a lot, but it was marked.  This was for just casual typing like I do all day for work, not in trying to get outright speed on a typing test.  When that happens I tend to type the same way, much more firm and deliberate and switch style seems to make less of a difference.  I also noticed that going from Topre back to Cherry or even Alps didnt pose much of an issue, it was going from another switch over to Topre that really caused me the most problems in readjusting my typing style.

 

[osi]

This thread gave me a new brain wrinkle

[SpAmRaY]

I am far from new here even with my low post count and this wasnt to bring up the flame wars that ensue when Topre vs. MX shows up.  Oh, I also use the search function quite a bit even when it doesnt return very good results... 

It was interesting reading about ultimate typing speeds that was brought up.  I completely agree its 99% user for out right speed.  Its muscle memory and practice.  I am sure if Link didnt practice quite a bit he would never hit 150WPM as a casual typist.  He seems to love to strive for the fastest speed possible and is willing to put in the work for it.  An elite typist would/should be able to hit pretty close to their max on several different keyboards as long as the layout is the same.  It may not all happen on the same day at the same time, but give them a small amount of time to get used to the board, even a day, and I bet they could get close to their max.

My original point for this thread was that I got really thrown off by the feel of Topre after getting so used to the Ergo Clears.  My typing style really needed to change switching back to the Topre and it slowed me down.  It wasnt a lot, but it was marked.  This was for just casual typing like I do all day for work, not in trying to get outright speed on a typing test.  When that happens I tend to type the same way, much more firm and deliberate and switch style seems to make less of a difference.  I also noticed that going from Topre back to Cherry or even Alps didnt pose much of an issue, it was going from another switch over to Topre that really caused me the most problems in readjusting my typing style.

 

Perhaps the thread title should have been something like:

  "Does anyone else have to adjust or change your typing style when switching between Cherry MX and Topre switches?"

[yasuo]

Don't think, feel )

[frvrngn]

BWMan - I think your car analogy is a little flawed.  I raced competitively for over 20 yrs (autocross and time trials) and I think you are going about it wrong.  You are talking about two different cars and having the driver do the same lap time.  Its not going to happen, even on an elite level like two different F1 cars.  You are going to get really darn close if the cars are that similar but I think its the wrong way to think about this.

How about the same car (switch) and multiple drivers?  Lets take your BW board and put me, Link and Sean Wrona on it.  Same switch for all.  I am 99.9% sure that Link will crush my typing speed and Sean would most likely beat Link (unless Link leaves it in Dvorak without saying anything!!).  Same board, same switch, three pretty varied speeds.  I max at 100wpm on good days, Link is at 150 and Sean has been over 200 on good days.  Put all of us on a cheap membrane board and I am sure the outcome would be the same.  We may not all hit the same max speed right away but I bet the percentage of difference across the three of us would be pretty close to the same.

Tux pretty much said the above - keep the board/car the same and give it two different users and you will see a much greater difference vs. same user on different cars/boards.  I saw this first hand in many events.  We had fun runs all the time at the end of races and one of the favorites was to take some random car (usually a rental!) and then see what driver could get the fastest time.  Same car for all, same amount of seat time for all, but there were pretty wide ranging results depending on the talent of the driver. 

[frvrngn]

I am far from new here even with my low post count and this wasnt to bring up the flame wars that ensue when Topre vs. MX shows up.  Oh, I also use the search function quite a bit even when it doesnt return very good results... 

It was interesting reading about ultimate typing speeds that was brought up.  I completely agree its 99% user for out right speed.  Its muscle memory and practice.  I am sure if Link didnt practice quite a bit he would never hit 150WPM as a casual typist.  He seems to love to strive for the fastest speed possible and is willing to put in the work for it.  An elite typist would/should be able to hit pretty close to their max on several different keyboards as long as the layout is the same.  It may not all happen on the same day at the same time, but give them a small amount of time to get used to the board, even a day, and I bet they could get close to their max.

My original point for this thread was that I got really thrown off by the feel of Topre after getting so used to the Ergo Clears.  My typing style really needed to change switching back to the Topre and it slowed me down.  It wasnt a lot, but it was marked.  This was for just casual typing like I do all day for work, not in trying to get outright speed on a typing test.  When that happens I tend to type the same way, much more firm and deliberate and switch style seems to make less of a difference.  I also noticed that going from Topre back to Cherry or even Alps didnt pose much of an issue, it was going from another switch over to Topre that really caused me the most problems in readjusting my typing style.

 

Perhaps the thread title should have been something like:

  "Does anyone else have to adjust or change your typing style when switching between Cherry MX and Topre switches?"

Perhaps...  Want me to start a new one??