The Avago laser sensors: Is it just me, or is the accel actually noticeable?

[fuzzybaffy]

So, as is common knowledge to most people who have an interest in gaming mice, all the laser sensors made by Avago have hardware acceleration built-in.

For a while I always believed it really wasn't a big issue, and that it wasn't all that noticeable.

But over the past couple of days, while using the Razer Taipan (which has one of the Avago laser sensors), I noticed that I would occasionally miss my target with the cursor during games. And this was not a problem I had with the Deathadder.

I wasn't sure if I had those issues because I wasn't used to the Taipan shape yet, or if it indeed was an issue with acceleration, so I took a little more time to compare both the Deathadder and the Taipan. And, unfortunately, I'm starting to think the targeting issues I had with the Taipan is because of the acceleration, and that the acceleration is indeed noticeable.

So is it just me, or is the hardware acceleration in the Avage laser sensors actually noticeable? What are other people's experiences with the Avago laser sensors?

[vun]

Some notice it, some don't.
I have personally never noticed any difference, although that doesn't mean that there isn't any. There could be, but it's not noticeable, so I don't bother testing. I find that shape often plays a role; if I start getting uncomfortable with a mouse shape then my performance in games will suffer.

[Photoelectric]

I was under the impression that even some "optical" (laser is still technically optical) mice have negative or positive acceleration--depends on sensor and implementation.  My guess on all that is, having read hundreds of pages on various sensors and acceleration on OCN, some mice are better than others, on individual basis (even if they share the same sensor with mice that are worse than that), and laser acceleration is something that bothers some people and doesn't bother others.  Moreover, it's likely a function of what you do with your mouse and what settings you use for it (sensitivity, if you use windows acceleration, game acceleration, etc.)  But ADNS-9500 and ADNS-9800 sensors are known to have a bit of a positive acceleration.  Whether one feels it or not is subjective.

[Reomero]

I did notice acceleration on my Sensei, though it was subtle.

I have another friend who had it and he didn't notice.

[Patchwrks]

my g400(not the g400s) is a newer version, I believe it has a avago S3095 and it has no angle snapping or acceleration or anything of the sort.

[vun]

my g400(not the g400s) is a newer version, I believe it has a avago S3095 and it has no angle snapping or acceleration or anything of the sort.

But that's completely irrelevant to this discussion since that's an optical sensor, not a laser sensor.

[Patchwrks]

my g400(not the g400s) is a newer version, I believe it has a avago S3095 and it has no angle snapping or acceleration or anything of the sort.

But that's completely irrelevant to this discussion since that's an optical sensor, not a laser sensor.

well there you go.  seeing as i don't really pay attention to the mice i buy i wouldn't know the difference between a laser and optical sensor so my bad

[Grim Fandango]

There are several factors that go into how much you notice it, or whether you notice it at all.

One of those factors is the sensitivity you play at. Acceleration means that not only the distance traveled, but also the speed with which the mouse traveled that distance have an effect on how the cursor is moved on the screen. When you play at a low sensitivity, using a lot of long sweeps at variable speeds, then it becomes more noticeable. My experience is that low sensitivity tends to amplify any sensor problem (for example, lift off distance and max tracking speed is more of an issue as well when playing at lower sensitivities)

Another factor is what kind of mouse you used before. Sometimes, you need to compare things to really see what is going on or where the problem is. Without having a better quality sensor mouse at hand, you may never "feel" it because you are not aware of how things are supposed to feel different.

Finally it depends on what you do with the mouse, and which genres you play. In an RTS, small differences in the way a sensor behaves might not be such a big deal. In a fast paced FPS, especially those where you do a lot of intuitive, fast "flick shots" (anticipating where the cursor will end up on the screen as you move the mouse, rather than watching it go there), it is a lot more noticeable.

But even after having said all that, while I do not deny the problems of the Avago 9500/9800 laser sensors, I do not think everyone puts them in the correct perspective. I think they are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be, and they will not make or break you as a player.

Personally I use a Zowie FK, but more for the overall shape, weight and feel than the sensor, though a good sensor is a huge bonus.

[vun]

snip

While it may seem like it in theory, I find that lift-off distance issues and the PTE z-axis problem are both equally bad, if not worse, at higher dpi. Higher dpi means the cursor moves a significantly longer distance than it does at low dpi, even if low dpi often causes you to lift quite often(although I have found that an increase in dpi doesn't necessarily reduce lifting).

So for me, lower dpi seems to have masked most sensor issues, although acceleration will still be worse at lower dpi where a small amount of accel can add up with all the movement going on.

[Grim Fandango]

snip

While it may seem like it in theory, I find that lift-off distance issues and the PTE z-axis problem are both equally bad, if not worse, at higher dpi. Higher dpi means the cursor moves a significantly longer distance than it does at low dpi, even if low dpi often causes you to lift quite often(although I have found that an increase in dpi doesn't necessarily reduce lifting).

So for me, lower dpi seems to have masked most sensor issues, although acceleration will still be worse at lower dpi where a small amount of accel can add up with all the movement going on.

Hmm, that may be the case. I do not play at high DPI myself, but I noticed that for someone who plays arena shooters on low sensitivity like me, the issues that are just theoretical to some become quite noticeable. The Philips Twin Eye sensor you mentioned is one example of a sensor that is just unusable in my opinion, though plenty of people still somehow happily use their RAT7's and so on.  Another example is that I ran into the max tracking speed of some mice (WMO for example, though I loved the mouse).

I guess it depends on which specific issues you are talking about.

[vun]

snip

While it may seem like it in theory, I find that lift-off distance issues and the PTE z-axis problem are both equally bad, if not worse, at higher dpi. Higher dpi means the cursor moves a significantly longer distance than it does at low dpi, even if low dpi often causes you to lift quite often(although I have found that an increase in dpi doesn't necessarily reduce lifting).

So for me, lower dpi seems to have masked most sensor issues, although acceleration will still be worse at lower dpi where a small amount of accel can add up with all the movement going on.

Hmm, that may be the case. I do not play at high DPI myself, but I noticed that for someone who plays arena shooters on low sensitivity like me, the issues that are just theoretical to some become quite noticeable. The Philips Twin Eye sensor you mentioned is one example of a sensor that is just unusable in my opinion, though plenty of people still somehow happily use their RAT7's and so on.  Another example is that I ran into the max tracking speed of some mice (WMO for example, though I loved the mouse).

I guess it depends on which specific issues you are talking about.

I have had no problem with my PTE sensors at low dpi, the z-axis issue does annoy me slightly now that I've gone up in dpi, but it's less annoying than LOD-issues.

[tp4tissue]

Even though I'm a stickler for optical sensor with less acceleration..

I call bull**** on anyone that claim they can pick up on +/-5% accel with the laser.

[Grim Fandango]

Even though I'm a stickler for optical sensor with less acceleration..

I call bull**** on anyone that claim they can pick up on +/-5% accel with the laser.

Show Image

Same. I play on very low sensitivity (Windows sensitivity setting 6/11, ~500 DPI, Counter Strike:GO ingame 1.75, Battlefield 4 ingame 5%) and I can not pick up on it either. And I am not just some scrub with bad aim who does not perform well in these games anyway. I use the optical sensors just because I want to avoid problems, however, I am sure I would be the same player performance-wise when using a Sensei , as when using my Zowie FK. When I used my teammate's Sensei at a LAN earlier this year, nothing in my performance changed. We see the same thing from professional players that change mice due to sponsorships (the guys in NIP for example, with their Steelseries products). It seems that skill remains the single most important factor, and that past some level of performance of your mouse, differences in sensor quality has no significant effect on performance. Arguably the best players in the world, for one of the most mouse-dependent games in the world (Counter Strike) dominated with mice that some label as broken (anything from the kana to the ikari optical). Kind of put things in perspective.

I should note however, that the first generation Avago 9500 sensors had noticeable problems tracking on cloth, which made the acceleration problem much worse. I have been told that this issue is no longer there, but I have not tested it, since I have not tried any laser mice for years now.

That said, when you are buying a gaming mouse, it makes perfect sense to prioritize having a good sensor (along with shape etc.)

[Skull_Angel]

Having long term use with the 9500 (G9x) and recently switching to the 3090 (Kone Pure opt.); I say there's no cognitive difference under normal mousing, but I have noticed I'm not missing/multi-clicking as much after flicking the mouse around (have been using the 3090 for a few weeks now). Whether it's placebo or developing more accurate memory, I couldn't say, but it's a happy change for me.

[fuzzybaffy]

Even though I'm a stickler for optical sensor with less acceleration..

I call bull**** on anyone that claim they can pick up on +/-5% accel with the laser.

Show Image

Meh. That's just you calling "bull****." Doesn't necessarily mean you're correct.

Also, if you think the acceleration of laser mice is bull****, then why do you still stick with optical mice, specifically for less acceleration? You're not making any sense.

Same. I play on very low sensitivity (Windows sensitivity setting 6/11, ~500 DPI, Counter Strike:GO ingame 1.75, Battlefield 4 ingame 5%) and I can not pick up on it either. And I am not just some scrub with bad aim who does not perform well in these games anyway. I use the optical sensors just because I want to avoid problems, however, I am sure I would be the same player performance-wise when using a Sensei , as when using my Zowie FK. When I used my teammate's Sensei at a LAN earlier this year, nothing in my performance changed. We see the same thing from professional players that change mice due to sponsorships (the guys in NIP for example, with their Steelseries products). It seems that skill remains the single most important factor, and that past some level of performance of your mouse, differences in sensor quality has no significant effect on performance. Arguably the best players in the world, for one of the most mouse-dependent games in the world (Counter Strike) dominated with mice that some label as broken (anything from the kana to the ikari optical). Kind of put things in perspective.

I should note however, that the first generation Avago 9500 sensors had noticeable problems tracking on cloth, which made the acceleration problem much worse. I have been told that this issue is no longer there, but I have not tested it, since I have not tried any laser mice for years now.

That said, when you are buying a gaming mouse, it makes perfect sense to prioritize having a good sensor (along with shape etc.)

So you're saying... the sensor doesn't matter, but people should still purchase mice based on sensor? o.O You're contradicting yourself.

Also, just because players win with mice with sensors that are supposedly flawed, doesn't mean the flaws aren't there. It is very well possible players just decide to play despite the flaws in the sensors, and still win, simply because they are that good.

Yea, you could argue then, that skill is the most important thing, which I agree. But who is to say that mice with better sensors wouldn't help them out? Maybe they just don't know it yet.

Also, the mice you mentioned that pro CS players used were all optical mice (Kana and Ikari optical). Though there may be other issues with the sensors of those mice, it certainly isn't acceleration, which is the topic of this thread here.

That said, I'm not pretending I'm some amazing gamer, and claiming that I need the best mice with the best sensors to pretend that I'm a great gamer, but, honestly, I felt the difference between the Deathadder and the Taipan. I used them side-by-side and I could absolutely tell the difference. From what you're saying, Grim Fandango, you used the Steel Series Sensei at LAN event, which is some time and distance away from your home mouse, the Zowie FK, so you didn't really have a means of doing a side-by-side comparison.

I challenge anyone to make that side-by-side comparison, between an optical mouse (without mouse acceleration), and an Avago laser mouse.

[fuzzybaffy]

Having long term use with the 9500 (G9x) and recently switching to the 3090 (Kone Pure opt.); I say there's no cognitive difference under normal mousing, but I have noticed I'm not missing/multi-clicking as much after flicking the mouse around (have been using the 3090 for a few weeks now). Whether it's placebo or developing more accurate memory, I couldn't say, but it's a happy change for me.

Well, if you're missing/multi-clicking less, isn't that a cognitive difference? Regardless of the semantics, if I were missing/multi-clicking less with an optical sensor mouse, that would be enough reason to dump laser mice, for me.

[vun]

Having long term use with the 9500 (G9x) and recently switching to the 3090 (Kone Pure opt.); I say there's no cognitive difference under normal mousing, but I have noticed I'm not missing/multi-clicking as much after flicking the mouse around (have been using the 3090 for a few weeks now). Whether it's placebo or developing more accurate memory, I couldn't say, but it's a happy change for me.

Well, if you're missing/multi-clicking less, isn't that a cognitive difference? Regardless of the semantics, if I were missing/multi-clicking less with an optical sensor mouse, that would be enough reason to dump laser mice, for me.

While it could be the sensor, it could also be due to a more suitable shape/weight, or possibly the placebo effect.

[Skull_Angel]

Well, if you're missing/multi-clicking less, isn't that a cognitive difference? Regardless of the semantics, if I were missing/multi-clicking less with an optical sensor mouse, that would be enough reason to dump laser mice, for me.

It's too hard to say exactly what the cause for the slight enhancement for performance is/was, mainly because it's not as if I can wave the cursor across the screen and see any difference between the two mice; I mean it's easy to point at the sensor because it's the most obvious change as well as being a noted upgrade when developing muscle memory. But, it could even be the placement of the sensor in relation to how I move the mouse or because I have only recently returned to using a cloth pad.

While it could be the sensor, it could also be due to a more suitable shape/weight, or possibly the placebo effect.

[fuzzybaffy]

Having long term use with the 9500 (G9x) and recently switching to the 3090 (Kone Pure opt.); I say there's no cognitive difference under normal mousing, but I have noticed I'm not missing/multi-clicking as much after flicking the mouse around (have been using the 3090 for a few weeks now). Whether it's placebo or developing more accurate memory, I couldn't say, but it's a happy change for me.

Well, if you're missing/multi-clicking less, isn't that a cognitive difference? Regardless of the semantics, if I were missing/multi-clicking less with an optical sensor mouse, that would be enough reason to dump laser mice, for me.

While it could be the sensor, it could also be due to a more suitable shape/weight, or possibly the placebo effect.

Well, if you're missing/multi-clicking less, isn't that a cognitive difference? Regardless of the semantics, if I were missing/multi-clicking less with an optical sensor mouse, that would be enough reason to dump laser mice, for me.

It's too hard to say exactly what the cause for the slight enhancement for performance is/was, mainly because it's not as if I can wave the cursor across the screen and see any difference between the two mice; I mean it's easy to point at the sensor because it's the most obvious change as well as being a noted upgrade when developing muscle memory. But, it could even be the placement of the sensor in relation to how I move the mouse or because I have only recently returned to using a cloth pad.

While it could be the sensor, it could also be due to a more suitable shape/weight, or possibly the placebo effect.

True. But I guess the key word here is "could".

[Grim Fandango]

Even though I'm a stickler for optical sensor with less acceleration..

I call bull**** on anyone that claim they can pick up on +/-5% accel with the laser.

Show Image

Meh. That's just you calling "bull****." Doesn't necessarily mean you're correct.

Also, if you think the acceleration of laser mice is bull****, then why do you still stick with optical mice, specifically for less acceleration? You're not making any sense.

Same. I play on very low sensitivity (Windows sensitivity setting 6/11, ~500 DPI, Counter Strike:GO ingame 1.75, Battlefield 4 ingame 5%) and I can not pick up on it either. And I am not just some scrub with bad aim who does not perform well in these games anyway. I use the optical sensors just because I want to avoid problems, however, I am sure I would be the same player performance-wise when using a Sensei , as when using my Zowie FK. When I used my teammate's Sensei at a LAN earlier this year, nothing in my performance changed. We see the same thing from professional players that change mice due to sponsorships (the guys in NIP for example, with their Steelseries products). It seems that skill remains the single most important factor, and that past some level of performance of your mouse, differences in sensor quality has no significant effect on performance. Arguably the best players in the world, for one of the most mouse-dependent games in the world (Counter Strike) dominated with mice that some label as broken (anything from the kana to the ikari optical). Kind of put things in perspective.

I should note however, that the first generation Avago 9500 sensors had noticeable problems tracking on cloth, which made the acceleration problem much worse. I have been told that this issue is no longer there, but I have not tested it, since I have not tried any laser mice for years now.

That said, when you are buying a gaming mouse, it makes perfect sense to prioritize having a good sensor (along with shape etc.)

So you're saying... the sensor doesn't matter, but people should still purchase mice based on sensor? o.O You're contradicting yourself.

Also, just because players win with mice with sensors that are supposedly flawed, doesn't mean the flaws aren't there. It is very well possible players just decide to play despite the flaws in the sensors, and still win, simply because they are that good.

Yea, you could argue then, that skill is the most important thing, which I agree. But who is to say that mice with better sensors wouldn't help them out? Maybe they just don't know it yet.

Also, the mice you mentioned that pro CS players used were all optical mice (Kana and Ikari optical). Though there may be other issues with the sensors of those mice, it certainly isn't acceleration, which is the topic of this thread here.

That said, I'm not pretending I'm some amazing gamer, and claiming that I need the best mice with the best sensors to pretend that I'm a great gamer, but, honestly, I felt the difference between the Deathadder and the Taipan. I used them side-by-side and I could absolutely tell the difference. From what you're saying, Grim Fandango, you used the Steel Series Sensei at LAN event, which is some time and distance away from your home mouse, the Zowie FK, so you didn't really have a means of doing a side-by-side comparison.

I challenge anyone to make that side-by-side comparison, between an optical mouse (without mouse acceleration), and an Avago laser mouse.

I just tried to put it into perspective.

I said that it is not nearly as noticeable or as bad as some people make it out to be, and it does not have a profound effect on performance (at least not to the extent that people claim it does), even though I do not deny that the acceleration problems are real (and therefore do realize the laser sensors are less than optimal, however small the differences in performance may be). Despite acceleration problems on the newer Avago laser mice not being quite as terrible as some people make it sound, it still makes sense to prioritize the quality of the sensor when buying a gaming mouse, simply because generally it is one of the most important characteristics of a mouse. I said they should prioritize it among other things, giving shape as an example of another thing that is just as important.

Also, I was able to use my Zowie FK, that I brought to the LAN of course. I also brought my WMO 1.1a. I have also used all three of those mice (Sensei, WMO, FK) on different occasions as well. The reason I mentioned the LAN is because it was the only time where I actually switched back and forth , where usually I use a certain mouse for longer period making comparison harder (Mind you, this was as 3 day lan, and for a large portion of it, me and the other guy switched mice because he wanted to know whether he should switch mice, so it is not like it was a 5 minute comparison). I know this is hardly any kind of proof about how a sensor affects performance (anecdotal evidence by one guy is hardly enough). I just wanted to share my own personal experience, and it was largely the same game, same day(s), same maps even, against the same people (with detailed stats for comparison as well) so it was as good of a real world test as I was ever going to do. We have LANs 3 times a year, and we often try each other's peripherals. 3 guys in my team switched to mechanical keyboards after I told them about mine, though some others already had one.

[fuzzybaffy]

Even though I'm a stickler for optical sensor with less acceleration..

I call bull**** on anyone that claim they can pick up on +/-5% accel with the laser.

Show Image

Meh. That's just you calling "bull****." Doesn't necessarily mean you're correct.

Also, if you think the acceleration of laser mice is bull****, then why do you still stick with optical mice, specifically for less acceleration? You're not making any sense.

Same. I play on very low sensitivity (Windows sensitivity setting 6/11, ~500 DPI, Counter Strike:GO ingame 1.75, Battlefield 4 ingame 5%) and I can not pick up on it either. And I am not just some scrub with bad aim who does not perform well in these games anyway. I use the optical sensors just because I want to avoid problems, however, I am sure I would be the same player performance-wise when using a Sensei , as when using my Zowie FK. When I used my teammate's Sensei at a LAN earlier this year, nothing in my performance changed. We see the same thing from professional players that change mice due to sponsorships (the guys in NIP for example, with their Steelseries products). It seems that skill remains the single most important factor, and that past some level of performance of your mouse, differences in sensor quality has no significant effect on performance. Arguably the best players in the world, for one of the most mouse-dependent games in the world (Counter Strike) dominated with mice that some label as broken (anything from the kana to the ikari optical). Kind of put things in perspective.

I should note however, that the first generation Avago 9500 sensors had noticeable problems tracking on cloth, which made the acceleration problem much worse. I have been told that this issue is no longer there, but I have not tested it, since I have not tried any laser mice for years now.

That said, when you are buying a gaming mouse, it makes perfect sense to prioritize having a good sensor (along with shape etc.)

So you're saying... the sensor doesn't matter, but people should still purchase mice based on sensor? o.O You're contradicting yourself.

Also, just because players win with mice with sensors that are supposedly flawed, doesn't mean the flaws aren't there. It is very well possible players just decide to play despite the flaws in the sensors, and still win, simply because they are that good.

Yea, you could argue then, that skill is the most important thing, which I agree. But who is to say that mice with better sensors wouldn't help them out? Maybe they just don't know it yet.

Also, the mice you mentioned that pro CS players used were all optical mice (Kana and Ikari optical). Though there may be other issues with the sensors of those mice, it certainly isn't acceleration, which is the topic of this thread here.

That said, I'm not pretending I'm some amazing gamer, and claiming that I need the best mice with the best sensors to pretend that I'm a great gamer, but, honestly, I felt the difference between the Deathadder and the Taipan. I used them side-by-side and I could absolutely tell the difference. From what you're saying, Grim Fandango, you used the Steel Series Sensei at LAN event, which is some time and distance away from your home mouse, the Zowie FK, so you didn't really have a means of doing a side-by-side comparison.

I challenge anyone to make that side-by-side comparison, between an optical mouse (without mouse acceleration), and an Avago laser mouse.

I just tried to put it into perspective.

I said that it is not nearly as noticeable or as bad as some people make it out to be, and it does not have a profound effect on performance (at least not to the extent that people claim it does), even though I do not deny that the acceleration problems are real (and therefore do realize the laser sensors are less than optimal, however small the differences in performance may be). Despite acceleration problems on the newer Avago laser mice not being quite as terrible as some people make it sound, it still makes sense to prioritize the quality of the sensor when buying a gaming mouse, simply because generally it is one of the most important characteristics of a mouse. I said they should prioritize it among other things, giving shape as an example of another thing that is just as important.

Also, I was able to use my Zowie FK, that I brought to the LAN of course. I also brought my WMO 1.1a. I have also used all three of those mice (Sensei, WMO, FK) on different occasions as well. The reason I mentioned the LAN is because it was the only time where I actually switched back and forth , where usually I use a certain mouse for longer period making comparison harder (Mind you, this was as 3 day lan, and for a large portion of it, me and the other guy switched mice because he wanted to know whether he should switch mice, so it is not like it was a 5 minute comparison). I know this is hardly any kind of proof about how a sensor affects performance (anecdotal evidence by one guy is hardly enough). I just wanted to share my own personal experience, and it was largely the same game, same day(s), same maps even, against the same people (with detailed stats for comparison as well) so it was as good of a real world test as I was ever going to do. We have LANs 3 times a year, and we often try each other's peripherals. 3 guys in my team switched to mechanical keyboards after I told them about mine, though some others already had one.

I see what you're saying. You're saying you do notice the acceleration, but you're not sure if it affects your gaming performance.

But I guess to me, just noticing the acceleration is enough for me to stop using it. Even if I can't verify whether it affects my performance, it's still a variable I don't want there. But that's just me... I'll definitely agree, however, that it is up to the users themselves to decide whether they want to continue using mice with noticeable acceleration.

But, you do admit you notice the acceleration, yes? That is the most important thing, given the thread title is about whether the acceleration is noticeable, after all...   =P

[Grim Fandango]

Yes, I think my posts were just poorly worded.

We are saying the same thing. Knowing the acceleration is there and there are superior sensors available, I also opt for a sensor without acceleration. I feel the same way about it. Even if it is something I can not easily verify myself, it exsists, and it is something I would avoid if I can.

I just wanted to put it into perspective, and say that the avago laser mice are not as bad as people make them out to be. Not sure if I would use the word noticeable. If I put my sensitivity very low, go into CS:GO, and move the mouse by sweeping a fixed distance at variable speeds (very fast or very slow), the speed with which I move the mouse has a slight effect on how much my character rotates ingame. So it is real. Is that noticable in a normal game? Maybe to some it is. To me, not really. What I am more worried about is that it messes up my aim even just slightly.

On a sidenote, acceleration (if it were stable) is not always a bad thing. In some games people like this as it kind of gives a built in adjustable sensitivity. Move the mouse slow for precision shots without having to adjust DPI, move the mouse fast to quickly cover distance (or turn 180 degrees for example). However, even then, people would still prefer to use the more reliable and constant software acceleration. In some arena shooters, like Quake, acceleration is not at all a thing people hate. Though in most games, and most shooters, the simplicity of only distance affecting cursor movement is preferred.

[Oobly]

I noticed my Logitech G9 never felt completely right. Same with my Laser version RAT.

My optical RAT3 just feels more precise. And that's enough for me.

It's fine for most normal tasks, but in-game it is noticeable, though hard to describe or show data for it. I wouldn't notice it so much if I didn't have a better mouse for reference. It makes enough difference that I only game with the optical one now.

[fuzzybaffy]

I noticed my Logitech G9 never felt completely right. Same with my Laser version RAT.

My optical RAT3 just feels more precise. And that's enough for me.

It's fine for most normal tasks, but in-game it is noticeable, though hard to describe or show data for it. I wouldn't notice it so much if I didn't have a better mouse for reference. It makes enough difference that I only game with the optical one now.

I see. The laser sensor in the RAT, however, uses the Philips Twin-Eye sensor, which is actually known to not have acceleration.

Not trying to dismiss or question your experiences, of course. But maybe there are some other issues with the lasered RAT's, other than acceleration that make it less precise? Does anybody know?

I'm asking because I'm actually considering the RAT 7 vs. the RAT 3 myself.

[vun]

I noticed my Logitech G9 never felt completely right. Same with my Laser version RAT.

My optical RAT3 just feels more precise. And that's enough for me.

It's fine for most normal tasks, but in-game it is noticeable, though hard to describe or show data for it. I wouldn't notice it so much if I didn't have a better mouse for reference. It makes enough difference that I only game with the optical one now.

I see. The laser sensor in the RAT, however, uses the Philips Twin-Eye sensor, which is actually known to not have acceleration.

Not trying to dismiss or question your experiences, of course. But maybe there are some other issues with the lasered RAT's, other than acceleration that make it less precise? Does anybody know?

I'm asking because I'm actually considering the RAT 7 vs. the RAT 3 myself.

The PTE has an issue with the z-axis, the cursor will jump towards the lower right corner of the monitor every time you lift it. At low dpi this isn't really an issue, since the low dpi means it barely moves, and at high dpi you don't have to lift, so it won't be a problem as long as you don't lift. At medium dpi, though, it's a bit of a pain, since you have to lift fairly regularly, and due to the dpi the cursor jumps quite a bit.

I've mostly used my PTE mice at anything from 400 to 1800 dpi, and it's never really bothered me much.

[fuzzybaffy]

Is that an issue with all PTE mice? I know exactly what you're talking about, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Razer Imperator. But I was under the impression the z-axis issue was more to do with Razer's implementation of the PTE sensor, and not the sensor itself.

The problem you describe occurs in mice with the funky "dual sensor" technology, but I think I've talked about it with you before, that the PTE sensor is NOT the entire setup. The PTE sensor is just the laser sensor part of the dual sensor implementation, and it is possible to use the PTE in a standalone setup, which you see in the Lachesis refresh and the RAT 7.

AFAIK, mice that use the PTE sensor in a standalone manner, and not in Razer's "dual sensor" setup, doesn't have that z-axis problem. Or, I've never run into that problem with the Lachesis refresh, at least, and I've never heard people having issues with that on the RAT 7.

Also, Oobly says he had issues with "precision", which I assume to be an issue with tracking, which would mean it's not an issue with the z-axis. Oobly, could you elaborate on the sensor issues you had with the lasered RAT mouse? 

[Skull_Angel]

Iirc, the PTE is also unnaturally sensitive to dust; I've found this can be some what remedied a bit with the R.A.T. series by removing the skate that surrounds the sensor, but you will still need to blow it out with compressed air on occasion (just not as frequently as with the pointless skate).

[Oobly]

It's an old RAT3 with laser sensor, not a PTE, just a single laser, similar to the G9 one AFAIK. It had the same "not quite" accurate feeling. Just enough to be irritating. Almost subliminal, you could say. The new RAT3 with optical sensor doesn't give that feeling, feels "tight". Some may argue that it's not inaccurate enough to make a difference to actual hit/miss, but it spoils the enjoyment for me, so that's enough reason to prefer optical, IMHO.

[vun]

Is that an issue with all PTE mice? I know exactly what you're talking about, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Razer Imperator. But I was under the impression the z-axis issue was more to do with Razer's implementation of the PTE sensor, and not the sensor itself.

The problem you describe occurs in mice with the funky "dual sensor" technology, but I think I've talked about it with you before, that the PTE sensor is NOT the entire setup. The PTE sensor is just the laser sensor part of the dual sensor implementation, and it is possible to use the PTE in a standalone setup, which you see in the Lachesis refresh and the RAT 7.

AFAIK, mice that use the PTE sensor in a standalone manner, and not in Razer's "dual sensor" setup, doesn't have that z-axis problem. Or, I've never run into that problem with the Lachesis refresh, at least, and I've never heard people having issues with that on the RAT 7.

Also, Oobly says he had issues with "precision", which I assume to be an issue with tracking, which would mean it's not an issue with the z-axis. Oobly, could you elaborate on the sensor issues you had with the lasered RAT mouse? 

No, the problem is inherent to the PTE sensor. So far, all PTE mice I have tried have the z-axis issue to some degree.
Also, do you have a source that says that the Philips Twin Eye(note the Twin part) is just a single sensor? And the Lachesis Refresh definitely suffers from the z-axis issue, I just tested mine.
What dpi are you using? Like I said, dpi seems to play an important role here, as I didn't really notice the issue until I went up to 1800dpi, and even then I don't actually notice it during use.

[fuzzybaffy]

Iirc, the PTE is also unnaturally sensitive to dust; I've found this can be some what remedied a bit with the R.A.T. series by removing the skate that surrounds the sensor, but you will still need to blow it out with compressed air on occasion (just not as frequently as with the pointless skate).

Thank you. Will consider that if I purchase a RAT 7.

It's an old RAT3 with laser sensor, not a PTE, just a single laser, similar to the G9 one AFAIK. It had the same "not quite" accurate feeling. Just enough to be irritating. Almost subliminal, you could say. The new RAT3 with optical sensor doesn't give that feeling, feels "tight". Some may argue that it's not inaccurate enough to make a difference to actual hit/miss, but it spoils the enjoyment for me, so that's enough reason to prefer optical, IMHO.

Thanks for letting me know.

Is that an issue with all PTE mice? I know exactly what you're talking about, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Razer Imperator. But I was under the impression the z-axis issue was more to do with Razer's implementation of the PTE sensor, and not the sensor itself.

The problem you describe occurs in mice with the funky "dual sensor" technology, but I think I've talked about it with you before, that the PTE sensor is NOT the entire setup. The PTE sensor is just the laser sensor part of the dual sensor implementation, and it is possible to use the PTE in a standalone setup, which you see in the Lachesis refresh and the RAT 7.

AFAIK, mice that use the PTE sensor in a standalone manner, and not in Razer's "dual sensor" setup, doesn't have that z-axis problem. Or, I've never run into that problem with the Lachesis refresh, at least, and I've never heard people having issues with that on the RAT 7.

Also, Oobly says he had issues with "precision", which I assume to be an issue with tracking, which would mean it's not an issue with the z-axis. Oobly, could you elaborate on the sensor issues you had with the lasered RAT mouse? 

No, the problem is inherent to the PTE sensor. So far, all PTE mice I have tried have the z-axis issue to some degree.
Also, do you have a source that says that the Philips Twin Eye(note the Twin part) is just a single sensor? And the Lachesis Refresh definitely suffers from the z-axis issue, I just tested mine.
What dpi are you using? Like I said, dpi seems to play an important role here, as I didn't really notice the issue until I went up to 1800dpi, and even then I don't actually notice it during use.

Well, look at the bottom of your mice that use the PTE. The Lachesis Refresh has only one sensor, while the Mamba has two. The Imperator has two as well. The RAT 7, on the other hand, like the Refresh has just one sensor.

I'm pretty sure the "Twin-Eye" is just the name, and isn't the same as the "dual sensor" system that Razer uses. The Taipan also uses the "dual sensor" system, but it doesn't use the PTE, and instead uses the Avago. So the "dual sensor" system is just something that Razer has implemented, and isn't necessarily the same as the Philips Twin-Eye.

The z-axis issue is a problem with older "dual sensor" system (in the Imperator/Mamba), not the PTE. Because, again, the Taipan uses the "dual sensor" system, but with the Avago, and it doesn't exhibit the z-axis issue.

And, are you sure z-axis problem exists for the Lachesis Refresh? It's possible to replicate something that feels similar to the z-axis problem with just regular mice (without the PTE), just by landing your mouse at an angle. It's possible you're doing that with the Lachesis Refresh. When I had the Refresh, I'm almost 100% positive it was very different than the issue I had with the Imperator.

[vun]

Iirc, the PTE is also unnaturally sensitive to dust; I've found this can be some what remedied a bit with the R.A.T. series by removing the skate that surrounds the sensor, but you will still need to blow it out with compressed air on occasion (just not as frequently as with the pointless skate).

Thank you. Will consider that if I purchase a RAT 7.

It's an old RAT3 with laser sensor, not a PTE, just a single laser, similar to the G9 one AFAIK. It had the same "not quite" accurate feeling. Just enough to be irritating. Almost subliminal, you could say. The new RAT3 with optical sensor doesn't give that feeling, feels "tight". Some may argue that it's not inaccurate enough to make a difference to actual hit/miss, but it spoils the enjoyment for me, so that's enough reason to prefer optical, IMHO.

Thanks for letting me know.

Is that an issue with all PTE mice? I know exactly what you're talking about, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Razer Imperator. But I was under the impression the z-axis issue was more to do with Razer's implementation of the PTE sensor, and not the sensor itself.

The problem you describe occurs in mice with the funky "dual sensor" technology, but I think I've talked about it with you before, that the PTE sensor is NOT the entire setup. The PTE sensor is just the laser sensor part of the dual sensor implementation, and it is possible to use the PTE in a standalone setup, which you see in the Lachesis refresh and the RAT 7.

AFAIK, mice that use the PTE sensor in a standalone manner, and not in Razer's "dual sensor" setup, doesn't have that z-axis problem. Or, I've never run into that problem with the Lachesis refresh, at least, and I've never heard people having issues with that on the RAT 7.

Also, Oobly says he had issues with "precision", which I assume to be an issue with tracking, which would mean it's not an issue with the z-axis. Oobly, could you elaborate on the sensor issues you had with the lasered RAT mouse? 

No, the problem is inherent to the PTE sensor. So far, all PTE mice I have tried have the z-axis issue to some degree.
Also, do you have a source that says that the Philips Twin Eye(note the Twin part) is just a single sensor? And the Lachesis Refresh definitely suffers from the z-axis issue, I just tested mine.
What dpi are you using? Like I said, dpi seems to play an important role here, as I didn't really notice the issue until I went up to 1800dpi, and even then I don't actually notice it during use.

Well, look at the bottom of your mice that use the PTE. The Lachesis Refresh has only one sensor, while the Mamba has two. The Imperator has two as well. The RAT 7, on the other hand, like the Refresh has just one sensor.

I'm pretty sure the "Twin-Eye" is just the name, and isn't the same as the "dual sensor" system that Razer uses. The Taipan also uses the "dual sensor" system, but it doesn't use the PTE, and instead uses the Avago. So the "dual sensor" system is just something that Razer has implemented, but isn't necessarily the same as the Philips Twin-Eye.

And, are you sure z-axis problem exists for the Lachesis Refresh? It's possible to replicate something that feels similar to the z-axis problem with just regular mice (without the PTE), just by landing your mouse at an angle. It's possible you're doing that with the Lachesis Refresh. When I had the Refresh, I'm almost 100% positive it was very different than the issue I had with the Imperator.

The Mamba with two sensors does not use PTE; PTE only has one visible sensor on the underside. The Mamba with two sensors is the new non-PTE dual sensor system Razer uses, the original PTE one(which I have in my drawer) only has a single visible sensor underneath, as does the RAT7, Lachesis Refresh and Naga2012, and all of these display the z-axis issue. And yes, I am lifting the mouse straight since I am aware that off-angle lifts with high LOD can produce similar behaviour. Although in most cases, you'd be gripping towards the front of the mouse, so if anything the cursor would be more likely to jump straight up if the problem was LOD, rather than diagonally downwards like the PTE.

[fuzzybaffy]

The Mamba with two sensors does not use PTE; PTE only has one visible sensor on the underside. The Mamba with two sensors is the new non-PTE dual sensor system Razer uses, the original PTE one(which I have in my drawer) only has a single visible sensor underneath, as does the RAT7, Lachesis Refresh and Naga2012, and all of these display the z-axis issue. And yes, I am lifting the mouse straight since I am aware that off-angle lifts with high LOD can produce similar behaviour. Although in most cases, you'd be gripping towards the front of the mouse, so if anything the cursor would be more likely to jump straight up if the problem was LOD, rather than diagonally downwards like the PTE.

Actually... both versions of the Mamba use the PTE: http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Hardware:Mice_Sensors

Well, if you say you have issues with the z-axis on the standalone implementations of the PTE, I can't really argue. I specifically do remember having issues with the z-axis on the dual sensor Mamba and Imperator, but not having the same issues with the standalone PTE Lachesis refresh, but I am going by memory, so I may be wrong.

Regardless, the thread topic is about acceleration, isn't it? =P Oobly said the laser sensored RAT 3 he used didn't have a PTE, so I'm still trying to wonder if the PTE has any acceleration...

[vun]

The Mamba with two sensors does not use PTE; PTE only has one visible sensor on the underside. The Mamba with two sensors is the new non-PTE dual sensor system Razer uses, the original PTE one(which I have in my drawer) only has a single visible sensor underneath, as does the RAT7, Lachesis Refresh and Naga2012, and all of these display the z-axis issue. And yes, I am lifting the mouse straight since I am aware that off-angle lifts with high LOD can produce similar behaviour. Although in most cases, you'd be gripping towards the front of the mouse, so if anything the cursor would be more likely to jump straight up if the problem was LOD, rather than diagonally downwards like the PTE.

Actually... both versions of the Mamba use the PTE: http://www.esreality.com/wiki/Hardware:Mice_Sensors

Well, if you say you have issues with the z-axis on the standalone implementations of the PTE, I can't really argue. I specifically do remember having issues with the z-axis on the dual sensor Mamba and Imperator, but not having the same issues with the standalone PTE Lachesis refresh, but I am going by memory, so I may be wrong.

Regardless, the thread topic is about acceleration, isn't it? =P Oobly said the laser sensored RAT 3 he used didn't have a PTE, so I'm still trying to wonder if the PTE has any acceleration...

Weird, since the Ouroboros doesn't have PTE, but still has two sensors underneath. Do you have a Mamba 4G that you can take pictures of? Google doesn't have any pics showing the underside of a Mamba with two sensors, and Razer's photo doesn't really show much.
I wish manufacturers were less vague about their sensors.

But no, the PTE has no accel.

[fuzzybaffy]

Well, if you visit the Razer product page for their Mamba: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-mamba

It says:

4G Dual Sensor System

Experience the new pro-gaming standard of precision with the 6400dpi 4G Dual Sensor System, outfitted with a laser and an optical sensor to accurately calibrate the mouse to any surface for exceptional tracking.

So... yea. It seems the "dual sensor" system is just an implementation brought on by Razer themselves, and isn't limited to just PTE sensors. They can choose whichever sensor to go in the "dual sensor" system, and the PTE just happened to be one of them for the latest Mamba and Imperator.

Also, there's a nice image that compares the older Imperator, to the newer 2012 Imperator here:



The older one is on the right, and if you notice the "profile" button on the right one, is replaced by a sensor on the left, newer 2012 version.

[vun]

Well, if you visit the Razer product page for their Mamba: http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-mice/razer-mamba

It says:

4G Dual Sensor System

Experience the new pro-gaming standard of precision with the 6400dpi 4G Dual Sensor System, outfitted with a laser and an optical sensor to accurately calibrate the mouse to any surface for exceptional tracking.

So... yea. It seems the "dual sensor" system is just an implementation brought on by Razer themselves, and isn't limited to just PTE sensors. They can choose whichever sensor to go in the "dual sensor" system, and the PTE just happened to be one of them for the latest Mamba and Imperator.

Also, there's a nice image that compares the older Imperator, to the newer 2012 Imperator here:

Show Image

The older one is on the right, and if you notice the "profile" button on the right one, is replaced by a sensor on the left, newer 2012 version.

Huh, I'd almost guess that's a 3-sensor system, with a normal PTE and a third optical sensor for LOD and surface calibration.

Also, I'm assuming the difference in size is because of the photo, and that they are both the same?

[fuzzybaffy]

Yeap. They are the same. It's probably something to do with the angle of the photo.

And Razer calls it a "dual sensor system" for the Imperator and Mamba, so I have to actually guess it really is just two sensors.

[vun]

Yeap. They are the same. It's probably something to do with the angle of the photo.

And Razer calls it a "dual sensor system" for the Imperator and Mamba, so I have to actually guess it really is just two sensors.

Yeah, hence my 'almost'. Man, this is some confusing business. Luckily, all I really care about is what it means in practice, rather than the details behind it. Besides, I want an Imperator anyway due to shape, since I don't really have an issue with PTE.

[fuzzybaffy]

Well, I just got the RAT 7, and the sensor just feels... off. Given people say that the PTE doesn't have acceleration, I get it's not an issue with acceleration, but the sensor just doesn't feel as natural or consistent to me, as the sensor on the Deathadder 2013. People over at overclock.net also mention that the RAT 7 has issues with cloth pads, and it seems I'm finding those issues as well, since I use a cloth pad. It seems the cursor doesn't want to sit still sometimes, as it picks up the uneven fabric of the cloth, I'm guessing. Not that my cloth pad is horrible or anything; because I've never had these issues with any other mice on the same pad. And, I want to continue using cloth pads, so I'm thinking the RAT 7 is going to go back to the retailer.

I could try the RAT 3, but I also think I prefer a different shape, over the wide-body of the RAT mice.

And finally, vun, I actually noticed no z-axis issue with the RAT 7. Maybe you're lifting up your PTE mice in a specific way to make the cursor move? Because I can make the cursor move when lifting up any mouse, and is usually the result of me lifting it up in a certain angle. Lifting the RAT 7 in a careful manner gives me no z-axis issue, as can be seen in this video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7j8aFSEtRDc

[damorgue]

Now I am curious as I am about to use the Avago ADNS 9800. Does it have acceleration by itself or does the mice with that sensor have acceleration in their firmwares? I was under the same impression as Photoelectric, that it was the implementations and their firmwares which had these "features".

I was under the impression that even some "optical" (laser is still technically optical) mice have negative or positive acceleration--depends on sensor and implementation.

[vun]

Now I am curious as I am about to use the Avago ADNS 9800. Does it have acceleration by itself or does the mice with that sensor have acceleration in their firmwares? I was under the same impression as Photoelectric, that it was the implementations and their firmwares which had these "features".

I was under the impression that even some "optical" (laser is still technically optical) mice have negative or positive acceleration--depends on sensor and implementation.

The Avago laser sensors all have inherent accel, no matter the firmware.