Author Topic: double tap on mx switches  (Read 13390 times)

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Offline jonjonjon

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double tap on mx switches
« on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 10:55:21 »
i hear about the double tap issues with mx blues but the only info i can really find is some people have the problem and others don't. what i'm really curious about the actual double tap speed of the different switches. how fast can you double tap the - key on the site below with different switches? on my rubber dome keyboard i have trouble getting under .1 for a single double tap but i can get under .1 if i spam it.

http://www.timeanddate.com/stopwatch/

i ordered a ducky shine 3 with browns switches from ncix. it said they had 1 left in stock and 8 days later i was emailing them asking why it still hadn't shipped. turns out it was out of stock so i canceled the order. now i am back to contemplating what i want. the only switches i have ever tried is a friends keyboard with blues which i liked. now i'm thinking about just getting blues. i really wish they had the ducky in stock so i can stop spending hours trying to decide what i want.

thanks

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 11:42:55 »
you should post a screen shot I'm not sure which .1 your referring to.

Offline damorgue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 12:01:47 »
He is probably speaking of 0.1 second between taps. I am not sure how reliable that thing is though. Here is my attempt.

Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 12:07:46 »
He is probably speaking of 0.1 second between taps. I am not sure how reliable that thing is though. Here is my attempt.

Yeah I got about the same as you did.

Offline piglickjf

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 12:39:04 »
Ok, maybe a dumb question here, but how are you measuring key taps with that?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 12:40:55 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

Offline RESPRiT

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 13:35:27 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

Great explanation right here. Some people still do find it "easier" to double tap with linear switches though, but like you said, that's the end user's fault, not the keyboard.
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Offline 1pq

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 15:25:58 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

In the case of blues, though, where the actuation point is below the reset point, sometimes you try to double tap by only going up to the actuation point (which doesn't reset the switch). It doesn't bother me, but I've heard that some people don't like this/find this hard to navigate.
If you're spamming the switch and not floating around the actuation point, though, what you said is exactly correct.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 15:55:22 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

In the case of blues, though, where the actuation point is below the reset point, sometimes you try to double tap by only going up to the actuation point (which doesn't reset the switch). It doesn't bother me, but I've heard that some people don't like this/find this hard to navigate.
If you're spamming the switch and not floating around the actuation point, though, what you said is exactly correct.

I've heard the whole "floating" thing going around... I used to think it was possible.. but after really getting into keyboards and making a serious attempt to increase my 130 wpm,  I've found that floating thing to be impossible, and would most likely hinder performance.

Offline PointyFox

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:24:20 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

In the case of blues, though, where the actuation point is below the reset point, sometimes you try to double tap by only going up to the actuation point (which doesn't reset the switch). It doesn't bother me, but I've heard that some people don't like this/find this hard to navigate.
If you're spamming the switch and not floating around the actuation point, though, what you said is exactly correct.

Yeah, the problem isn't the speed of double clicking with MX Blues.  It's the lack of tactility and click upon successive actuations if the switch does not travel up beyond its reset point.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 30 December 2013, 16:28:51 »
sigh..... more keyboard sorcery...

For double tap to be a problem...   You would have to be able to lift off your finger "FASTER" than the key can recover to actuation position...  WHICH is not really possible without whipping your whole arm upwards..

For those who are complaining about double tapping on a tactile switch/ mx blue,  it is usually because they are responding to the tactile mechanism and NOT consciously making the double tap,  they're reactively making the "second" tap, NOT double tapping...


Double tapping is, I'm gonna hit this key twice..

Reactively second-tapping is...  I'm gonna hit this key,  wait for some sort of response, then press this key again..

The latter IF (incomplete) is a failure of the user to detect and respond.. NOT the keyboard's issue.. The keyboard's response and rate is a Constant...

In the case of blues, though, where the actuation point is below the reset point, sometimes you try to double tap by only going up to the actuation point (which doesn't reset the switch). It doesn't bother me, but I've heard that some people don't like this/find this hard to navigate.
If you're spamming the switch and not floating around the actuation point, though, what you said is exactly correct.

Yeah, the problem isn't the speed of double clicking with MX Blues.  It's the lack of tactility and click upon successive actuations if the switch does not travel up beyond its reset point.

OK.. so from here on..

LETs be more precise, and say... mx-blue is more-difficult to REACTIVELY second tap...  it is not double-tap..

HOWEVER,, we should also go forward to say, the reactive double-tap is the responsibility of the USER to get a handle on his tools.. rather than an issue with the keyboard itself..

Offline hydrospell

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 01:23:45 »
00:00:00.093
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Offline Polymer

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 02:49:21 »
I've heard the whole "floating" thing going around... I used to think it was possible.. but after really getting into keyboards and making a serious attempt to increase my 130 wpm,  I've found that floating thing to be impossible, and would most likely hinder performance.

For doubletapping during a game?  It isn't impossible...Some people will try to double tap without letting the key go all the way up..in this case, there is about a .75mm difference in activation and reset.  If you attempt to press down again before it hits reset, you get nothing..

I'm not sure how many games and how many people this may impact..but I know if I doubletap I'm not necessarily letting the key come all the way up....not that I play too many of those types of games on PC but if I was, even if it was just 1 out of 100 times, I'd be annoyed...

I'm not saying this will happen to people this often..or at all..some people doubletap differently than others....but if you play a game where you need to do this accurately...I'd probably consider something other than Blues...but for other games that don't require this (which is most) then it is a non issue...
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 December 2013, 02:54:43 by Polymer »

Offline tbc

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 03:40:21 »
^

this

I've definitely noticed double tapping 'errors' when gaming on my blues that never happened on my browns.

it generally only happens when you're 'panicking' in the game and aren't 'composed' enough to tap properly, but that's when you actually need enough to work properly or you lose.

I never realized it was .75mm though; that's a huge distance for switch travel.

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Offline Oobly

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 04:01:56 »
As the above posters have said, Blues have hysteresis (the actuation and rest points are not the same) which means you need to let the slider come up farther to reset it and then press down again to activate it. Browns and Reds don't have this hysteresis. The activation point is almost identical to the reset point which means you can get two activiations really close together if you "hover" around the activation point.

Two things to note, however:

1. Debounce. Many keyboards have a debounce delay built in which will limit how fast you can actually get 2 activations to register, although usually it's really small.

2. Reds are easiest to "hover", but don't have any tactile feedback of where the actuation point is. Browns do have the tactile feedback, but this makes it harder to "hover" due to the changing forces.

Blues can be fine for gaming, depending on the game style, but I find I prefer Browns, at least on the movement keys, since you need to control the reset point as well as the actuation point (so you stop moving when you want), whereas activating spells, etc you only care about the actuation point.

I find that when typing I often bottom out (albeit quite softly), with only some presses not, especially when I type quickly, but bottoming out hard all the time is worth putting effort into avoiding (to reduce long term damage due to shock). I find it easy to avoid bottoming out on stock Clears, but very hard on Blues. Browns and ErgoClears (the switches I use) are somewhere in between, and the trampoline mods I did help to soften the blow when I do.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 04:27:06 »
My point is.. HOVERing around the actuation point is NOT a real technique.. it's some random dream-up by some kiddies who don't understand the purpose of the 2mm actuation..

It is not to make anything faster, or more responsive, or more convenient..

The purpose of the mid-level actuation, is so that people do not form the psychological attachment to Press harder on a key to activate it, as it occurs with regular rubber dome..


There is NO SITUATION that calls for hovering your fingers  @ the 2mm position.

No games are designed for a transitional time requirement..  and it is also impossible to predict your movement to such a degree, that a lower transition time would give an advantage.

The movement transcend the wasd cluster into all potential keys..  there is no way you can predict well in ahead your next key, and begin hovering there..



Offline PointyFox

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 05:01:50 »

The purpose of the mid-level actuation, is so that people do not form the psychological attachment to Press harder on a key to activate it, as it occurs with regular rubber dome..


Wut.  :confused:

Quote

The movement transcend the wasd cluster into all potential keys..  there is no way you can predict well in ahead your next key, and begin hovering there..


Illuminati talk aside, this "hovering" can occur when a finger is left on a key that needs to be pressed more than once, such as movement or fire keys, due to the small difference in pre-actuation and 0mm actuation cues. As in, when using mx blues, your fingers will tend to stay right around the actuation point instead of releasing the keys all the way.  It's similar to trying to type on low travel keys, but consciously picking your fingers up 1mm above the key each time it is pressed.  It is like this because the reset point of MX Blue has an extreme force dip before reaching the top which can be misinterpreted as the top.  In fact, the reset point of blues provides the same amount of force as if the key was at the top of its travel.



The difference between 0gF and 25gF or even 20gF in the case of the reset point feels pretty minimal when clicking repeatedly with a force of 60g.  The mental aspect also compounds with the physical treppe phenomemon.

A lot of people say that "it's all subjective" or that "all switches are good", but I think they just don't know enough or have dull senses.
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 December 2013, 05:08:13 by PointyFox »

Offline Polymer

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 06:16:44 »
My point is.. HOVERing around the actuation point is NOT a real technique.. it's some random dream-up by some kiddies who don't understand the purpose of the 2mm actuation..

That could but..but I thought the talk was about double tapping..not about hovering...

I personally think most gamers will be fine on MX Blues..but if you're playing competitively there isn't any reason you'd want to take that chance if there are situations where you need to doubletap..not to mention the noise...

Offline Oobly

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 07:16:39 »
There's no need to be argumentative about it. It's simple physics. If you want the key to activate twice, the fastest way to do it is to press to actuation, then release to reset, then press to actuation. The fastest way to do that is with a linear switch as long as you have good feedback from the system or know the switches really well (you can judge it by the force or relying on experience). If you're not used to where the actuation point is, a tactile (non-clicky) will be faster for you since you don't have to "guess" where the actuation or reset is. Clicky will be slowest, due to having to move the most between each change in state.

I hover when using movement keys in some situations where I need to change my position rapidly, so it's NOT "some random dreamup". Double tap is the same as hover, you know where the actuation point is and hover around that point (down, up, down).

You may not be sensitive enough to feel it, or unable to hover properly, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I agree that MX switches weren't design with 2mm actuation to enable hovering, but it does make it possible.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 22:49:03 »
There's no need to be argumentative about it. It's simple physics. If you want the key to activate twice, the fastest way to do it is to press to actuation, then release to reset, then press to actuation. The fastest way to do that is with a linear switch as long as you have good feedback from the system or know the switches really well (you can judge it by the force or relying on experience). If you're not used to where the actuation point is, a tactile (non-clicky) will be faster for you since you don't have to "guess" where the actuation or reset is. Clicky will be slowest, due to having to move the most between each change in state.

I hover when using movement keys in some situations where I need to change my position rapidly, so it's NOT "some random dreamup". Double tap is the same as hover, you know where the actuation point is and hover around that point (down, up, down).

You may not be sensitive enough to feel it, or unable to hover properly, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I agree that MX switches weren't design with 2mm actuation to enable hovering, but it does make it possible.

Ur wrong.

Tap the table in front of you as fast as you can..

NOW

try tapping it without lifting your hand and stopping at ur precious 2mm mark every single time...

THERE IS NO WAY you can do the later faster than you can do the former...


Offline Polymer

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 22:54:33 »
That's absolutely not true..

Tap as fast as you can and lift your finger up 10cm off the table (this is an exaggeration). 

Tap as fast as you can barely lifting your finger.  Which is faster?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:06:51 »
That's absolutely not true..

Tap as fast as you can and lift your finger up 10cm off the table (this is an exaggeration). 

Tap as fast as you can barely lifting your finger.  Which is faster?


my point is,, if you inserted the limiting step of HOVERING at 2mm.. that will slow it down

This is not to say if you lifted your hand to approach infinite height, it will be slower..<-- completely different scenario.... NOT what I'm trying to convey.


Offline C5Allroad

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:09:56 »
Reds are really nice to double tap on. But if you want a middle ground of speed and tactility browns will be quicker than blues, but blues feel really nice...


Offline rowdy

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:34:36 »
Now try triple tapping ...

Or quadruple tapping ;)
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Offline jonjonjon

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:39:31 »
i think i'm going to just get blues and hope i don't have any problems double tapping. i play a lot of dota so double taps not registering could get annoying. on that site if i just use one finger and use my entire arm i can get times under .05 but if i put my fingers on the keys and use my ring finger like was actually gaming i'm around .15.
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:41:53 by jonjonjon »

Offline C5Allroad

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 31 December 2013, 23:47:25 »
I'm using my friends blues, it's not as bad as you think. But you do have to release the the key re-actuate it.

Offline Polymer

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 03:04:27 »
That's absolutely not true..

Tap as fast as you can and lift your finger up 10cm off the table (this is an exaggeration). 

Tap as fast as you can barely lifting your finger.  Which is faster?


my point is,, if you inserted the limiting step of HOVERING at 2mm.. that will slow it down

This is not to say if you lifted your hand to approach infinite height, it will be slower..<-- completely different scenario.... NOT what I'm trying to convey.

It wouldn't matter...you can still spam quickly by staying at 1.5mm-3mm in depth...not saying that would be how *I* would do it but you can.

I'm not even saying hovering or riding the actuation point is good in practice..I think there are some definitive flaws in doing it that way..not to mention a lot of errors...

But double tapping as in pressing to 4mm in depth, and pressing again before it comes all the way up..most definitely can be done and probably does happen quite a bit for some....

Depending on your style of pressing, this may impact you some or not at all...but certainly if I was playing competitively I wouldn't want to increase the potential of my errors...Already if I do it this way, it is possible for me to press down, and tap again before it even hits reset for ANY switch..definitely possible..the added height of reset only adds to that..

Or even forgetting about the fact that the two points are different....From where reds/browns/blacks reset to where blues reset is .5mm greater..which just creates a greater chance you'll doubletap before the switch reset..it is far from ideal...

Offline Hyde

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 01 January 2014, 13:20:53 »
Ok, maybe a dumb question here, but how are you measuring key taps with that?

So the shortcut to start and stop is " - " (minus sign, ignoring the quotation marks).  So what you do is reset it first, then quickly double tap " - " sign.

It will give you a time, but you have to reset it every time otherwise it will keep adding up to longer and longer time.

00:00:00.093

I get around the same result on Matias Quiet Pro (Dampened ALPS).  Which is a pretty tactile switch.  I should try it with a linear switch later.  :P

There's no need to be argumentative about it. It's simple physics. If you want the key to activate twice, the fastest way to do it is to press to actuation, then release to reset, then press to actuation. The fastest way to do that is with a linear switch as long as you have good feedback from the system or know the switches really well (you can judge it by the force or relying on experience). If you're not used to where the actuation point is, a tactile (non-clicky) will be faster for you since you don't have to "guess" where the actuation or reset is. Clicky will be slowest, due to having to move the most between each change in state.

I hover when using movement keys in some situations where I need to change my position rapidly, so it's NOT "some random dreamup". Double tap is the same as hover, you know where the actuation point is and hover around that point (down, up, down).

You may not be sensitive enough to feel it, or unable to hover properly, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I agree that MX switches weren't design with 2mm actuation to enable hovering, but it does make it possible.

^ This man speaks the truth.

It's simple physics, MX Brown and MX Red actuate and reset at around 50% mark, so theoretically you can lift the switch 60% up and press down again and it would work.

MX Blue actuate at around 50% and resets at around 75% up.  So you'd have to almost lift the entire switch before being able to press it again.

Let alone that MX Brown and MX Red have 45g force and blue has 50g force and more noticeable bump, so it will take more effort to overcome the bump every time.

And this is a FACT that MX Blue will always take more effort to double tap compares to MX Brown and MX Red.


================================================================================


Now does it make enough difference for you to NOTICE?

I think that depends on people, to me I notice it.  Just feels like it takes more effort to spam MX Blue compares to MX Red/Brown.  Also MX Blue's high reset point bugs me.

Personally I like MX Red the best for double tap but MX Brown is not bad because it gives you a tiny bump just enough to tell you when the switch is reset.

I mean technically you can double tap with any buttons, even this:

49612-0

But the question is which would you rather use?

C cup boobs and D cup boobs are both big, but you can't deny the fact that D cup is bigger.  But does it warrant enough difference for you to notice?

To me it does  :thumb:
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 January 2014, 13:24:34 by Hyde »

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Offline jonjonjon

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 10:49:58 »
i play games in the dark so i thought having a keyboard that could be dimly backlit would be nice. i now realizing how shiny and slick the keys on my current keyboard are which is only 4-5 months old. my hands get sweaty and i always have to clean the keys because they feel horrible. now i'm looking at keyboards with PBT keycaps but the lack of options leaves a lot to be desired. its to bad the ducky shine 3 yellow uses blank keycaps. i could live with the fact that its ridiculously ugly. sort of annoying that all these companies use cheap keycaps on expensive keyboards.


Ducky DK9008G2 PRO Dark Grey Version PBT Mechanical Keyboard (Green Cherry MX)
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=467

i'm not sure if i should risk getting greens. i measured the force on my current keyboard at ~55g. i'm not a great touch typist and i think i type pretty forcefully. i'm just unsure if i would like something that required 1.5x more force then my current keyboard. even if it is smoother and i don't have to bottom out. when i used blues they felt really light which is the only reason i would consider greens and why browns make me a little nervous.


Vortex KBT ONE PBT Mechanical Keyboard (Blue Cherry MX)
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=205

this vortex looks almost identical to the ducky with the same 4 top right keys and a calc button. the problem is i can find almost no info or reviews on the kbt one. i see a lot of negative stuff about some of the other vortex models.

thanks for the help

Offline Polymer

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #29 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 18:00:21 »
Ducky DK9008G2 PRO Dark Grey Version PBT Mechanical Keyboard (Green Cherry MX)
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=467

i'm not sure if i should risk getting greens. i measured the force on my current keyboard at ~55g. i'm not a great touch typist and i think i type pretty forcefully. i'm just unsure if i would like something that required 1.5x more force then my current keyboard. even if it is smoother and i don't have to bottom out. when i used blues they felt really light which is the only reason i would consider greens and why browns make me a little nervous.

Why not look at Clears then?  To get over the tactile bump is around 65g ..it then drops when you actuate and then ramps up quickly but at that point you've already actuated the switch so you can stop pressing down...

It'll be heavier than blues but not hugely so...it'll have a tactile bump (if that is what you want), it won't be too loud..and some people find it easier to not bottom out or lightly bottom out because the force needed to bottom out ramps up so quickly after actuation..

Offline jonjonjon

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #30 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:22:58 »
Why not look at Clears then?  To get over the tactile bump is around 65g ..it then drops when you actuate and then ramps up quickly but at that point you've already actuated the switch so you can stop pressing down...

It'll be heavier than blues but not hugely so...it'll have a tactile bump (if that is what you want), it won't be too loud..and some people find it easier to not bottom out or lightly bottom out because the force needed to bottom out ramps up so quickly after actuation..

where can i find a keyboard with clears and PBT keycaps or LED's? mechanicalkeyboards.com and amazon don't have a single keyboard with clears and tigerimports well that site sucks to use so i might have missed one. how can mechanicalkeyboards and tigerimports be the same company? mk has the best advanced search and tigerimports is a complete disaster. it reminds me of trying to find stuff on amazon, ncix or tigerdirect compared to newegg.
« Last Edit: Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:25:14 by jonjonjon »

Offline tbc

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #31 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:35:39 »
qtan might have some fc660m w/ clears left.

if you want pbt caps, just buy them separately.
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Offline swill

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #32 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:56:35 »
Hovering is not a good technique for typing, but it is very real in gaming.

The double tap issue with blues is my main point of my frustration with blues and was why I gave my blue board away.

This was my experience. Every time I typed two of the same characters (since I am a developer, I do this ALL the time; ==, '', "", //, etc) I would tap twice very quickly. The first press I would get a click, I would release the key till i felt the switch stop (at the bottom of the bump, but I would not release past the bump) and I would press again.  It would type the second character, but in my mind I would register the the second key press did not register because it was not the same as the first key press. When I am typing quickly and I think I made a mistake, I hit backspace instinctively and then review what my mistake was. I would realize that I had not actually made a mistake after I had already hit backspace.

My problem is that my hands thought I made a mistake when I didn't. This was too much of a disruption in my flow and drove me nuts. I switched to browns and my fingers are very happy again.

Offline Polymer

  • Posts: 1587
Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 02 January 2014, 19:57:59 »
Why not look at Clears then?  To get over the tactile bump is around 65g ..it then drops when you actuate and then ramps up quickly but at that point you've already actuated the switch so you can stop pressing down...

It'll be heavier than blues but not hugely so...it'll have a tactile bump (if that is what you want), it won't be too loud..and some people find it easier to not bottom out or lightly bottom out because the force needed to bottom out ramps up so quickly after actuation..

where can i find a keyboard with clears and PBT keycaps or LED's? mechanicalkeyboards.com and amazon don't have a single keyboard with clears and tigerimports well that site sucks to use so i might have missed one. how can mechanicalkeyboards and tigerimports be the same company? mk has the best advanced search and tigerimports is a complete disaster. it reminds me of trying to find stuff on amazon, ncix or tigerdirect compared to newegg.

You can look on the classifieds or vendors section here...You can also buy a kit and make your own.  Buy a keyboard from X company and resolder your own Cherry MX clears.  Unfortunately it isn't as easy as getting a keyboard with the four main Cherry switches...

Offline jonjonjon

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 08:16:34 »
i wouldn't be confident enough to try soldiering myself. finding PBT keycaps don't look to be any easier to find. sure i could join a group buy wait 3 months and hope i get what i ordered.  think im going to get the ducky with greens and hope for the best.

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 12:39:56 »
Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.
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Offline rowdy

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 17:56:17 »
Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.
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Offline swill

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 18:22:35 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 18:36:07 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..

Offline swill

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 19:13:50 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..
Show Image


haha, only suck with blues.  i rock out on the browns.  :)

Offline ynrozturk

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 19:54:47 »
Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Then you don't double tap fast enough, or as fast as others. Blues are not good for fast double tapping, period.
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Offline swill

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 20:26:10 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Then you don't double tap fast enough, or as fast as others. Blues are not good for fast double tapping, period.

When you say 'double tap' is that one click or two?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 21:20:28 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..
Show Image


haha, only suck with blues.  i rock out on the browns.  :)

how proficient are you on the browns in WPM.

Offline swill

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 21:40:36 »


Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..
Show Image


haha, only suck with blues.  i rock out on the browns.  :)

how proficient are you on the browns in WPM.
Show Image


I tried last night and apparently have 65 wpm.  I felt slow though because my hands were cold.  It was -38*C here last night and I don't heat my office because of the location of the heater and a wooden shelving unit.

Warmed up I would probably top out at about 75 wpm.

Offline terran5992

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #44 on: Fri, 03 January 2014, 23:06:53 »


Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..
Show Image


haha, only suck with blues.  i rock out on the browns.  :)

how proficient are you on the browns in WPM.
Show Image


I tried last night and apparently have 65 wpm.  I felt slow though because my hands were cold.  It was -38*C here last night and I don't heat my office because of the location of the heater and a wooden shelving unit.

Warmed up I would probably top out at about 75 wpm.

-38*C? Where are you located? Antarctica?

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Offline rowdy

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 04 January 2014, 00:55:41 »


Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Rowdy is making a good point. It's really typing that I had problems.  When typing I thought I had made a mistake when I hadn't. For gaming this could almost be an advantage. 1 click and still able to double tap. I don't remember having issues gaming with blues.

just cuz you suck at typing.. doesn't say anything about the "double-tap" capacity of the switch..
Show Image


haha, only suck with blues.  i rock out on the browns.  :)

how proficient are you on the browns in WPM.
Show Image


I tried last night and apparently have 65 wpm.  I felt slow though because my hands were cold.  It was -38*C here last night and I don't heat my office because of the location of the heater and a wooden shelving unit.

Warmed up I would probably top out at about 75 wpm.

-38*C? Where are you located? Antarctica?

Canada, in winter.
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline ynrozturk

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Re: double tap on mx switches
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 04 January 2014, 06:53:43 »

Blues are just not good for double tapping, no need for so many words.

Depends on a number of factors.  I have not had any problems double-tapping on blues or greens while playing games.

Then you don't double tap fast enough, or as fast as others. Blues are not good for fast double tapping, period.

When you say 'double tap' is that one click or two?

Two obviously.
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