Soundcard / Amp for Gaming

[oNinjaDispatcho]

I play a ton of video games. They eat up my time, as well as money, one thing video games and mechkeyboards have in common. 

My buddies that I play with were talking about sound setups, while I was just listening. They kept bringing up soundcards, as well as amps. I listen to a good bit of music, but not enough to drop hundreds of dollars on one of these things, but for gaming, I definitely would. That's why I'm asking about soundcards / amps and gaming. Is it worth it? Will I notice a difference?

I would be using headphones for this setup, not speakers. I have a few pairs of nice headphones, so buying headgear is not needed.
I play a ton of Battlefield 4, which is very sound heavy. I also play DayZ, ARMA 3, Rust, games like that. Will a soundcard / amp benefit me that much? I don't care about if it improves my skill at all. That's bogus. I just care about immersion, ear heaven, you know.

I'm a noob when it comes to audio, so I don't know the main differences between an amp and a soundcard other than the amp being external, the soundcard being plugged into the motherboard. If I'm murdering the idea by comparing them, let me know. I just need to be properly informed, that's all.

By the way, one of these guys I play with has dropped $3000+ on a setup. I am not looking to spend as much as him on a setup. I want to spend much much less. Exactly how much depends on how much a good piece of hardware is.

Thanks. Long post 

TL:DR - What is the difference between a soundcard and an amp, which is better for what, how do they effect gaming, and do you have any recommendations?

[missalaire]

Having a decent sound set up really does make a big difference. I was a bit unsure myself until I bought everything and put it together. My audio set up is Astro A40s + Astro Mix Amp Pro + Asus Xonar DX 7.1 sound card. I initially didn't get the Mix Amp Pro when I got my A40s, but when I got it, it made a slight improvement in sound. The real noticeable improvement came after I bought the Asus Xonar DX 7.1 to go with the Mix Amp Pro and I can say that after listening to music and some game sounds with it, I could hear sounds that I never heard before and everything sounds much better overall.

[tp4tissue]

If you're looking for immersion and enjoyment... definitely go for it..

but.... as far as competitive gaming goes.. very few games are built around sound queues.. 

[IvanIvanovich]

I like my Creative Titanium HD... it have very good positional audio illusion. That actually can help you in game, as when it's working well it give you more direction cue like enemy approaching from behind you. It can help some to your benefit in gaming for sure. Though, I would only recommend Titanium HD if you are on Windows 8... as I had some issues with it due to crap Creative driver on Windows 7. On windows 8.x the driver from Microsoft works perfectly on that card and have zero problem.
For Amp I use audioengine N22. It's a nice amp, but it may be overkill for use only headphone. I also have a nice 2.1 speakers set up I use for media hooked up.

As far as improvement over onboard audio... it's like moving from rubberdomes to mechanical keyboards. It's a very tangible experience improvement.

[noisyturtle]

The X-Fi works fine as a DAC or AMP for the casual listener (I use it as a DAC and it's great.) You will defiantly hear a drastic difference, even more so if you run it through an external AMP.

[CK Briefs]

For me, I use an Asus Xonar DX -- great upgrade from my ASUS Maximus' onboard sound.

ANd the difference between a DAC (usually with headphone amp) and a soundcard is just the fact that one is external and the other is in the case. Furthermore, a headphone amp is needed for audiophile-grade headphones as they have a high ohm impedance (basically higher threshold for the thing to actually function in your system.)

[oNinjaDispatcho]

For me, I use an Asus Xonar DX -- great upgrade from my ASUS Maximus' onboard sound.

ANd the difference between a DAC (usually with headphone amp) and a soundcard is just the fact that one is external and the other is in the case. Furthermore, a headphone amp is needed for audiophile-grade headphones as they have a high ohm impedance (basically higher threshold for the thing to actually function in your system.)

so a soundcard and an amp do the same thing, and an amp is superior?
That's my understanding of what you said

[IvanIvanovich]

Oh that's true. You could probably save some money and just get some DAC that accepts toslink/spdif. Even using onboard digital is usually quite an improvement over it's analogue. Most cheaper DAC seem to be USB though, which sometime can add much latency.
Either way if you wanted to go digital and use a DAC, or use analogue and use a nicer soundcard and amp it ends up solving the same goal just in different ways. Each have their pros and cons... cost differences.

[tp4tissue]

always use an external dac if you can...

anything that touches your PC's electrical is most likely to become noisy when the PC is running on High load..

[CK Briefs]

Each has its own benefit; it really comes down to the product itself. Like a mayflower dac will own any consumer level soundcard under $300.  Dacs also have the benefit of no electrostatic interference (shouldn't be much of a pro.)

What I was saying earlier was basically try and pick dac or soundcard according to what headset/ sound system you have. If you're going for headphone only and don't mind something on your desk, grab an external dac from Filo.

If you want a great sound system/ headset on your desktop and want to utilise the beautiful dolby sound capability of your speakers, get a good sound card fr ASUS xonar.

Just do a bit of research, and maybe even post what your sound setup is currently so we can help

[meiosis]

always use an external dac if you can...

anything that touches your PC's electrical is most likely to become noisy when the PC is running on High load..

I had some Asus soundcards for a while, I agree with TP4, an external dac is always better. I think massdrop has the Aune T1's still, I personally use a schitt stack and it outperforms the soundcard by miles. (or decibels hue)

[bueller]

I'm very happy with my Nuforce Icon2 DAC + Amp, that model is discontinued now but they have a ton of other models available now.

[Parak]

Not worth it at all - you can get perfectly fine sound out of onboard provided that your headphones have low impedance which is the case for pretty much every single gaming headset. Of course not all onboard is made equal. For example a lot of complaints about it stem from people using front panel breakouts which are case dependent and often have common ground between mic, headphone out, sata, and usb which leads to complete fubar. Otherwise, if you're using back panel output, get silence out of it at high levels (noise check), and don't need to raise the volume to the max to get acceptable volume, you're fine. Everything else is mostly a gimmick - EAX, etc. Full positional audio is well established as completely doable using basic stereo output.

The only reason one would need a separate dedicated amp is to drive high impedance headphones to sufficient volume levels. The one thing I'd suggest investment in if you're doing headphones and not headset is into a nice microphone setup. And I'm not talking something like a zalman, labtec, or a modmic. But that's a separate discussion...

[tp4tissue]

always use an external dac if you can...

anything that touches your PC's electrical is most likely to become noisy when the PC is running on High load..

I had some Asus soundcards for a while, I agree with TP4, an external dac is always better. I think massdrop has the Aune T1's still, I personally use a schitt stack and it outperforms the soundcard by miles. (or decibels hue)

I honestly don't think positional audio is much of an advantage in games.... 


a cheap dac with modded opamp is all you need for good clarity..  I prefer optical because "computer" dc noise.

I just don't want anything metal touching the computer..

I got this fiio d3 modded up, and I'm pretty satisfied with it..

using OPA2009 opamp, and a big-ass panasonic 1200uF FR cap on.

pretty sure that's the biggest cap that'll still fit in the case

[Novus]

Your gaming experience will definitely be better with a better sound system.
It does make a difference from a listening quality experience.

You always select your audio equipment based on what you're matching it with (in your case you need to pick a dac and amp that can be paired with your specific headphones).
A dac and amp is necessary because they drive your headphones and clear up ambient distortion from your mobo/system.

The question is will your headphones actually benefit from a dac and amp?
If yes get a DAC/AMP
If no, then get something cheap that helps filter out your mobo/system distortion to a tolerable level like a soundcard or some other gizmo that you can directly plug into.

[tp4tissue]

Your gaming experience will definitely be better with a better sound system.
It does make a difference from a listening quality experience.

You always select your audio equipment based on what you're matching it with (in your case you need to pick a dac and amp that can be paired with your specific headphones).
A dac and amp is necessary because they drive your headphones and clear up ambient distortion from your mobo/system.

The question now will your headphones actually benefit from a dac and amp?
If yes get a DAC/AMP
If no, then get something cheap that helps filter out your mobo/system distortion to a tolerably level like a soundcard that you can directly plug into.

sound card does NOT filter anything.. it tries,, but there's just too much current going through pcie these days.

especially if ur getting high fps

[Novus]

Your gaming experience will definitely be better with a better sound system.
It does make a difference from a listening quality experience.

You always select your audio equipment based on what you're matching it with (in your case you need to pick a dac and amp that can be paired with your specific headphones).
A dac and amp is necessary because they drive your headphones and clear up ambient distortion from your mobo/system.

The question now will your headphones actually benefit from a dac and amp?
If yes get a DAC/AMP
If no, then get something cheap that helps filter out your mobo/system distortion to a tolerably level like a soundcard that you can directly plug into.

sound card does NOT filter anything.. it tries,, but there's just too much current going through pcie these days.

especially if ur getting high fps

I think that actually depends on how good your headphones are. I've heard that soundcards do make a difference when your headphones are those slightly better 1/8 jack types (~100-150 bucks) that pick up distortion.
More to your point, I mean let's face it, nobody with a decent pair of cans is going to use a soundcard in lieu of an amp/dac.

I think alot of this really goes into what kind of sound quality are actually used to, because there's so many levels of audio hell and every-time you cross another threshold of hell you can't turn back.

[davkol]

Depends how good is your hearing, what headphones you have and how much you're willing to pay. And another thing, what kind of mic you use.

For me, the best solution is a budget sound card. I have Xonar U3 and M-Audio Fast Track, in particular. Before that, I had some old soundblaster and M-Audio Revolution.

I don't see any point in getting a dedicated headphone amp for anything but vintage or some high-end equipment. It only amplifies the signal and slightly changes sound signature. I don't care about either; the latter isn't worth the price IMO and I haven't used any headphones that couldn't be driven by my budget sound card to level that would severely damage my hearing.

[tp4tissue]

Depends how good is your hearing, what headphones you have and how much you're willing to pay. And another thing, what kind of mic you use.

For me, the best solution is a budget sound card. I have Xonar U3 and M-Audio Fast Track, in particular. Before that, I had some old soundblaster and M-Audio Revolution.

I don't see any point in getting a dedicated headphone amp for anything but vintage or some high-end equipment. It only amplifies the signal and slightly changes sound signature. I don't care about either; the latter isn't worth the price IMO and I haven't used any headphones that couldn't be driven by my budget sound card to level that would severely damage my hearing.

that's cuz ur sound card already has an "amp" so to speak..

some dacs like the d3 fiio only has enough power to drive earbuds.. LOL

luckily.. I use earbuds..

[JPG]

I am curious to know what headphones you use. I am new to all of this and don't have a dac/amp yet, but I have been reading a little about the subject searching for one and what I learned so far is this:


1: The best improvement in sound comes from the headset itself.


2: The headset will be a big factor when choosing your dac/amp. For example, the output impedance of the amp should be chosen based on the impedance of the headset. If you use an amp that is designed to power some 600 ohm headset, they will have more output impedance than an amp designed to power some 32 ohm headset. For this there's a general guideline of 1/8 ratio that is supposed to be a good reference.


But there's also many different features to look for. Asynchronous usb for the dac, tube vs no tube for amp, etc.


I am still very n00b in this, but choosing something is not easy. Yet my advise would be to get a good pair of headset combined with a dac/amp that has a good dac and maybe a built-in amp that you could replace by an standalone amp if you choose so later. I would also aim for a more neutral sound.

[davkol]

Depends how good is your hearing, what headphones you have and how much you're willing to pay. And another thing, what kind of mic you use.

For me, the best solution is a budget sound card. I have Xonar U3 and M-Audio Fast Track, in particular. Before that, I had some old soundblaster and M-Audio Revolution.

I don't see any point in getting a dedicated headphone amp for anything but vintage or some high-end equipment. It only amplifies the signal and slightly changes sound signature. I don't care about either; the latter isn't worth the price IMO and I haven't used any headphones that couldn't be driven by my budget sound card to level that would severely damage my hearing.

that's cuz ur sound card already has an "amp" so to speak..

My 600Ω HD25s are fine, when plugged into a laptop onboard soundcard or a phone. Even 80Ω DT770s were loud enough with an onboard audio chip.

I've turned the U3's internal amp off, because it sucks with low-impedance cans such as SR60s.

[tp4tissue]

I am curious to know what headphones you use. I am new to all of this and don't have a dac/amp yet, but I have been reading a little about the subject searching for one and what I learned so far is this:


1: The best improvement in sound comes from the headset itself.


2: The headset will be a big factor when choosing your dac/amp. For example, the output impedance of the amp should be chosen based on the impedance of the headset. If you use an amp that is designed to power some 600 ohm headset, they will have more output impedance than an amp designed to power some 32 ohm headset. For this there's a general guideline of 1/8 ratio that is supposed to be a good reference.


But there's also many different features to look for. Asynchronous usb for the dac, tube vs no tube for amp, etc.


I am still very n00b in this, but choosing something is not easy. Yet my advise would be to get a good pair of headset combined with a dac/amp that has a good dac and maybe a built-in amp that you could replace by an standalone amp if you choose so later. I would also aim for a more neutral sound.

all you have to know is...  audiophile stuff > $200  is a bunch of "unsubstantiable- fluff"..

By that I mean.. even if there was a measurable engineering difference, Ur ears / brain doesn't know or care...

The typical audiophile excuse to this is "sub-sonics" "sub-conscious" perception..  well... that's a $1000 question which could never be answered, because the difference is "subconscious"


It's like arguing the existence of God... / audio-nirvana...   HUMANS are not qualified to be the judges..   let along some random internet consumer with no comprehension of music theory and even less engineering competence.

^^ that is your typical audiophile....


Kinda like Topre (fanbois)... 

[oNinjaDispatcho]

I am curious to know what headphones you use. I am new to all of this and don't have a dac/amp yet, but I have been reading a little about the subject searching for one and what I learned so far is this:


1: The best improvement in sound comes from the headset itself.


2: The headset will be a big factor when choosing your dac/amp. For example, the output impedance of the amp should be chosen based on the impedance of the headset. If you use an amp that is designed to power some 600 ohm headset, they will have more output impedance than an amp designed to power some 32 ohm headset. For this there's a general guideline of 1/8 ratio that is supposed to be a good reference.


But there's also many different features to look for. Asynchronous usb for the dac, tube vs no tube for amp, etc.


I am still very n00b in this, but choosing something is not easy. Yet my advise would be to get a good pair of headset combined with a dac/amp that has a good dac and maybe a built-in amp that you could replace by an standalone amp if you choose so later. I would also aim for a more neutral sound.

all you have to know is...  audiophile stuff > $200  is a bunch of "unsubstantiable- fluff"..

By that I mean.. even if there was a measurable engineering difference, Ur ears / brain doesn't know or care...

The typical audiophile excuse to this is "sub-sonics" "sub-conscious" perception..  well... that's a $1000 question which could never be answered, because the difference is "subconscious"


It's like arguing the existence of God... / audio-nirvana...   HUMANS are not qualified to be the judges..   let along some random internet consumer with no comprehension of music theory and even less engineering competence.

^^ that is your typical audiophile....


Kinda like Topre (fanbois)...

i like how you put that.

just to run through my needs real quick:
This will be for gaming, not for music.
I will be using headphones, which I discovered I need a new pair of
I will be using emulated surround sound

After asking my gaming buddies, who all have setups like this, they say definitely get new headphones, I agree.
So a new question is which headphones to buy, and wether or not I need a soundcard / dac, and if so, which. I won't get an amp yet, unless someone insists I need it, at which point I will consider it. I'm assuming that I don't need it.

I want to do virtual surround sound, my friends have informed me I should get a stereo headset and use virtual surround on it. My motherboard supports virtual surround, so I don't require a soundcard, but would one help? Keep in mind I want to dish out around $200 - $300 on the headphones, and would only be left with about a hundred to spend on a soundcard. I could always buy a used soundcard, but is it worth it with that little money?

I think I should wait and decide after I get the headphones, but what do you guys think?

Thanks in advance.

[tp4tissue]

virtual surround isn't nearly as good as real surround in terms of positioning.. 

the algorithm to convert surround to virtual surround is also NOT designed for fidelity and accurate reproduction. 

WHICH MEANS your super expensive headphones will be receiving what is "more/less" garbled input signal..


If you want surround and preserve the audio fidelity.. you're better off getting a Home Theater in a box (HTIB).. and using the HDMI output on your graphics card..

This way your the receiver from the HTIB can do all the decoding and not corrupt the signal with weird algorithms.. 


If you go with the headphones route:

The $300 into the headphone and $100 into a dac/amp..  you'll get a very competent stereo setup.. 

^^ I'd rather have this, over what would be a budget HTIB @ $400... 

[oNinjaDispatcho]

virtual surround isn't nearly as good as real surround in terms of positioning.. 

the algorithm to convert surround to virtual surround is also NOT designed for fidelity and accurate reproduction. 

WHICH MEANS your super expensive headphones will be receiving what is "more/less" garbled input signal..


If you want surround and preserve the audio fidelity.. you're better off getting a Home Theater in a box (HTIB).. and using the HDMI output on your graphics card..

This way your the receiver from the HTIB can do all the decoding and not corrupt the signal with weird algorithms.. 


If you go with the headphones route:

The $300 into the headphone and $100 into a dac/amp..  you'll get a very competent stereo setup.. 

^^ I'd rather have this, over what would be a budget HTIB @ $400... 

They guys I asked advised specifically against getting true surround headsets. They explained it as:
true surround has a bunch of cheap tiny drivers positioned properly.
Stereo has two much much better drivers, which can be emulated into surround.

is that correct? does the emulation actually mess it up that much?

EDIT:

I am looking at two Sennheiser headsets, the PC 360, and PC 363D. They are very similar to one another. My confusion is wether or not the 363D actually has 7.1, or is it emulated on Stereo drivers.

Here is the amazon comparison chart. Again, the PC 360, and PC 363D. Far right.

[Binge]

stereo emulated surround.  The 360 is not worth the money.  Get a proper headphone and separate mic if you are going to spend that much.

[tp4tissue]

You really really don't want emulated surround on stereo.. it's just bad....

a txt example:

wah wah wah wah    will come out...  wurr wurr wurr wurr.

[Tarzan]

The guys I asked advised specifically against getting true surround headsets. They explained it as:
true surround has a bunch of cheap tiny drivers positioned properly.
Stereo has two much much better drivers, which can be emulated into surround.

is that correct? does the emulation actually mess it up that much?

EDIT:

I am looking at two Sennheiser headsets, the PC 360, and PC 363D. They are very similar to one another. My confusion is whether or not the 363D actually has 7.1, or is it emulated on Stereo drivers.

Here is the amazon comparison chart. Again, the PC 360, and PC 363D. Far right.

Show Image

I can't confirm the surround vs. stereo tradeoffs, but if I was in your shoes I'd get a regular set of headphones you can use for any purpose, and a lavalier or desk mike for gaming.  That's the route I took, after I went through five or six different sets of "gaming" headphones.  If you like the Sennheiser fit, I have the HD598's, a lovely sound for music/movies/gaming, but I'd also recommend trying the ATH M50's. 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1004410-REG/blue_nessie_adaptive_usb_microphone_headphone.html
(ATH M50's go on sale regularly for $100-125, pays to shop around.)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/751989-REG/Sennheiser_HD598_HD_598_Open_Back_Around_Ear.html

If you like the all-in-one setup with an integrated microphone, the Turtle Beach X-series headphones were the ones I liked the most, lots of bass, inline volume control for muting mike and amping game sound.

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.jsp?productId=15383296&mr:keyword=&mr:trackingCode=6C258E66-7315-E311-A497-90E2BA285E75&mr:match=&mr:adType=pla&mr:filter=38524421446&cagpspn=plat_13840676&mr:referralID=NA&mr:ad=35201222686&mr:device=c&camp=PLAPPC-_-PID13840676&KPID=13840676

[SpAmRaY]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1004410-REG/blue_nessie_adaptive_usb_microphone_headphone.html
(ATH M50's go on sale regularly for $100-125, pays to shop around.)

That's not an awful price for that combo if someone was looking for both since both of those separately on sale would cost around that amount and would cost more at regular price. Unless I'm missing something.

[Tarzan]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1004410-REG/blue_nessie_adaptive_usb_microphone_headphone.html
(ATH M50's go on sale regularly for $100-125, pays to shop around.)

That's not an awful price for that combo if someone was looking for both since both of those separately on sale would cost around that amount and would cost more at regular price. Unless I'm missing something.

Agreed.  I don't know the OP's budget constraints, if he's looking for lowest possible price then shopping around would be an option.  I like B&H, they've great customer service, and I use them for price comparo as well.

Another great USB microphone is the Blue Yeti model, but that takes up more desk real estate.  I use their Snowflake model for Skype gaming, and I hear good things about their Snowball, but I haven't tried that one myself.

Or go with a cheap lavalier mike, I see them starting around six bucks on Amazon, but I'd go for a recognized name myself.

http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-ATR-3350-Omnidirectional-Condenser-Microphone/dp/B002HJ9PTO/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1390599368&sr=1-1&keywords=lavalier+microphone

[tp4tissue]

I'd still go with an external dac+amp combo... it'll be miles ahead of any internal sound card in terms of clean sound...

The mic part, you can just use onboard, because through most games the chat transmission is heavily compressed anyway.. a better setup makes almost no difference..

[Oobly]

I'd still go with an external dac+amp combo... it'll be miles ahead of any internal sound card in terms of clean sound...

The mic part, you can just use onboard, because through most games the chat transmission is heavily compressed anyway.. a better setup makes almost no difference..

+1..

[oNinjaDispatcho]

my price range is lowered a lot from what I originally thought. Someone I talked to has the PC 360 http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-360-Headset-Pro-Gaming/dp/B003DA4D2U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390527729&sr=8-1&keywords=pc360

They really like them. They're also only $170 on amazon. That is a good price point, but I would like to go a little lower. Keep in mind that I can always buy used.

I want to have some money left over to put towards a 770, my 660 is getting a little insufficient for the games I play. o___o

[Binge]

I've gone through 3x pc 360s... they really aren't that great.  Build quality is ****e but the features are nice.

[tp4tissue]

my price range is lowered a lot from what I originally thought. Someone I talked to has the PC 360 http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-360-Headset-Pro-Gaming/dp/B003DA4D2U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390527729&sr=8-1&keywords=pc360

They really like them. They're also only $170 on amazon. That is a good price point, but I would like to go a little lower. Keep in mind that I can always buy used.

I want to have some money left over to put towards a 770, my 660 is getting a little insufficient for the games I play. o___o

if you need a gfx card.. then put everything into that..

sound is really not a huge facet of game design.. it's usually just a bunch of compressed mp3s to speed up buffers and maintain frame rate..

[oNinjaDispatcho]

I've gone through 3x pc 360s... they really aren't that great.  Build quality is ****e but the features are nice.

Hmmm.....
Do you know of any similar headsets with better build quality? Or even headphones that I could put a modmic on (or something like that)

[Tarzan]

Turtle Beach X12 = $49.99

http://www.gamestop.com/xbox-360/accessories/earforce-x12/92704?cid=fds_10000001&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=800935&gclid=CJ-o3KeXmrwCFYEDOgodCEsAVw

[tp4tissue]

just a reminder.. gaming headsets are NOT tuned the same way as Audiophile-oriented cans..

They are very "colored" to say the least.

[Binge]

I've gone through 3x pc 360s... they really aren't that great.  Build quality is ****e but the features are nice.

Hmmm.....
Do you know of any similar headsets with better build quality? Or even headphones that I could put a modmic on (or something like that)

getting a HD558 or 589 would be a serious step up in terms of quality
slap on a mod mic or get yourself a cheap usb and you'll be in business

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-504631-HD-558-Headphones/dp/B004FEEY9A/ref=sr_1_1?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1390685374&sr=1-1&keywords=hd558

[oNinjaDispatcho]

I've gone through 3x pc 360s... they really aren't that great.  Build quality is ****e but the features are nice.

Hmmm.....
Do you know of any similar headsets with better build quality? Or even headphones that I could put a modmic on (or something like that)

getting a HD558 or 589 would be a serious step up in terms of quality
slap on a mod mic or get yourself a cheap usb and you'll be in business

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-504631-HD-558-Headphones/dp/B004FEEY9A/ref=sr_1_1?s=aht&ie=UTF8&qid=1390685374&sr=1-1&keywords=hd558

I really like the HD598. Any suggestions for a cheap mic solution? I don't want to fork out a ton of money, but I like how the modmic looks. It's just expensive.

[Binge]

budget?

[oNinjaDispatcho]

budget?

I'm trying to stay $170 or below. The PC 360 is very very tempting. The specs and features are nice, and it comes with a mic, only $170 too..... Is the build really that bad? Keep in mind I don't rage and slam my head on the wall. I'm not that gamer.

[Oobly]

budget?

I'm trying to stay $170 or below. The PC 360 is very very tempting. The specs and features are nice, and it comes with a mic, only $170 too..... Is the build really that bad? Keep in mind I don't rage and slam my head on the wall. I'm not that gamer.

I don't know much about them, but found this review:

http://www.tested.com/forums/general-discussion/9829-tested-sennheiser-pc-360-game/

At least in terms of audio quality they seem very good.

[davkol]

They're based on HD558s IIRC.