Author Topic: Actuation force versus 'tactility' (Read 7862 times)

LouisHjelmslev · « **on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:10:43 »

Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?

jacobolus · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:21:21 »

When you say “most pronounced”, do you mean sharpest click, or strongest click? Do you care about sound, or just feeling? How do you feel about the various switches that you’ve already tried? Topre switches don’t have especially much haptic feedback IMO.

I like tactile/clicky Alps switches much more than any cherry MX switches. IBM model F also feels/sounds pretty nice.

Also maybe worth trying: MX “jailhouse blue” modded switches. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38091.30

sth · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:23:59 »

Quote from: LouisHjelmslev on Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:10:43

Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?

greens are going to be the least noticeable of those. the sound creates an illusion of greater tactility but in fact the bump is rather small. buckling springs, MX clear and 55g topre will be your best bet along with various alps switches. also note that topre vs the others will feel quite different since the source of tactility is soft rubber instead of a mechanism or spring.

Oobly · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:33:38 »

"This is all so complicated"

For biggest difference in force before actuation and after, I think buckling spring are tops, but Topre are actually quite good, too. The pressure falls away significantly. Then I'd say MX Clears, then the "Clicky" MX switches, Blues, Greens and Whites.

The click also help somehow affirm the actuation, gives it more "feel" (feedback from more senses increases the sensation), however, so you may experience the buckling spring and MX "clicky" tactility to be more profound than the Topres or MX Clears.

The higher pressure of the Green and White switches may also increase the "feeling" over Blues, but I haven't tried them myself, so I'm not sure.

After all that, I'd say go for buckling spring, then Green MX, then Clears, then Topre. But it's really a personal thing. Be aware that the buckling springs actuate at bottom, whereas MX and Topre actuate just after the "give" point, about halfway down.

jacobolus · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:50:12 »

Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:33:38

Be aware that the buckling springs actuate at bottom, whereas MX and Topre actuate just after the "give" point, about halfway down.

This is incorrect. Bucklling springs actuate when the spring buckles, which is distinctly above the bottom – maybe 2/3 of the way down?

LouisHjelmslev · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 06:24:36 »

Thanks for the well-thought out replies.

Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:21:21

When you say “most pronounced”, do you mean sharpest click, or strongest click? Do you care about sound, or just feeling? How do you feel about the various switches that you’ve already tried? Topre switches don’t have especially much haptic feedback IMO.

I mean the strongest click. That threshold between pre-click and post-click. As for the sound, I don't mind either way.
With regards to the switches I own (meaning, I've used for at least a few months), I love the blues, browns, and clears for the variety they offer, hence for my next keyboard, I definitely want it on the heavier end. If I'm to split hairs, personally I feel that:
Brown - On the edge of being too light, and I hardly notice the tactile bump. Great for longer writing sessions.
Blues - Great feeling, but honestly it would be the first to go if I purchased a 'harder bump' keyboard. In terms of sound, I enjoy the click, but I don't notice it after half an hour of writing.
Clears - They're ok, and feel much smoother than the other two. However sometimes they do feel a bit 'mushy'.

From the feedback so far, I'm seeing a pattern with Buckling Spring on top, with clicky Alps as a wildcard...

jacobolus · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 06:37:33 »

Quote from: LouisHjelmslev on Wed, 05 February 2014, 06:24:36

I mean the strongest click. That threshold between pre-click and post-click.

Well, what I mean by sharper vs. stronger is: the tactile point is more noticeable if (a) there’s a bigger fall-off in force before/after, but also is more noticeable if (b) the drop in force is very steep at a sharply defined point.

If you’ve mainly tried Cherry MX switches, I think you should definitely try a bunch of other options before you pull the trigger on anything. In my opinion all of the cherry switches feel very mushy and scratchy. Their tactile bump is made from plastic-on-plastic friction.

For size of tactile bump, I haven’t felt anything as pronounced as buckling springs. Definitely give those a try. But you also might like e.g. clicky white alps. There are other very strongly tactile switches, for instance the orange Alps-mount Omron switches, but those are pretty hard to find.

The “monterey blue” Alps-mount SMK switches have one of the most sharply/crisply defined clicks I’ve tried, which makes them also very nice to type on. They don’t have a super heavy spring though.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 06:51:45 »

The buckling spring patent refers to the actuation occurring with the "catastrophic" buckling of the spring.

The others just use the compression of the spring to keep the moving plastic parts under pressure, and it is plastic rubbing over plastic that creates the feeling.

And yes, the sensation you describe is precisely what is more pronounced and satisfying on the Model F than the Model M.

kod · « **Reply #8 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 11:34:08 »

Sound (or at least, vibration) has a lot to do with perceived tactility. AFAIK Matias quiet and tactile are the same switch with the exception of a tiny bit of rubber bumper, but the noisy switch feels a lot more tactile. Both of them trump any cherry I've used for tactility. Buckling spring is the king of tactility, though.

Macsmasher · « **Reply #9 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:57:19 »

Topre 55g has great tactility as well as a very refined keystroke. The bump isn't a BS switch, but tactility isn't the one and only defining factor in a keyboard. I'll take the Topre 55g over any of the BS boards I've used.

CPTBadAss · « **Reply #10 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 13:59:40 »

I would say Buckling Spring. I've tried all three of the switch types you mentioned. Greens and BS are the two keyboards I use most in my rotations.

smknjoe · « **Reply #11 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:13:36 »

Quote from: LouisHjelmslev on Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:10:43

Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?

This has been my personal experience. You can argue specs and "well if you press it down really slowly you can feel a grain of sand (in browns, clears, etc.)" but very few switches I've tried actually give you a noticeable bump to let you know that you have properly actuated the key. I use a keyboard to type not to play games. Bottoming out is not an acceptable or desirable form of feedback. Proper tactile and audible feedback is crucial for me when typing.

I've owned:

blacks - linear no tactile feedback
browns - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
clears - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
topre 45g HHKB - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
blues - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing (although they are too light for me really)
BS IBM SSK - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing and a nice resistance. They are not too light for me.
"fake" Alps SIIG Mechanical - very noticeable tactile feedback and nice resistance. The feel was sort of "granular" if you will...

LouisHjelmslev · « **Reply #12 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:35:47 »

Wow, I think BS is the clear winner. Tactile feedback, check. Nice resistance, check. Pity, as I was curious about Topre, nevertheless, very excited to go retro.

tbc · « **Reply #13 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:13:34 »

you can't beat BS springs in terms of tactility. there is ACTUALLY something 'breaking' inside.

topre is an attempt at being as smooth as possible and then adding as much tactility as possible. since they're prioritizing smoothness, they're not getting maximum bumpage.

i also don't see why we bother calling long (smooth/flat) bumps tactile. time (distance for us) does matter; not just the absolute highest point and the lowest point.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #14 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:37:43 »

Quote from: LouisHjelmslev on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:35:47

Wow, I think BS is the clear winner. Tactile feedback, check. Nice resistance, check. Pity, as I was curious about Topre, nevertheless, very excited to go retro.

In my experience, membrane buckling spring isn't perceptually very tactile. The capacitive buckling spring force curve shows a drop in force of at maybe 18 cN, the same as what Silencium measured for white Alps. (Blue Alps is more complicated, with a sharp drop of around 15 cN then a slow drop of 8 cN.)

The feel of a switch is a lot more than just the drop distance. For example, Topre's force curve is rounded, like rolling hills, and you really feel that difference. Membrane buckling spring actuates so close to full travel that it's almost linear as a result. Alps SKCM/SKBM switches have a sharp actuation peak and a short pretravel, so the key requires a harder shove and you really feel the tactile bump. Blue Alps has a very precise bump, but it's not too heavy. Highly-tactile rubber dome switches (e.g. RD7D50) feel very similar, as do other click leaf switches.

You don't want the sharpest, most pronounced bump, as that can be pretty jarring on your fingers. Even Cherry MX Blue can be uncomfortable at times. I find Topre to be too "slow" — the tactile event drags on a bit due to the rounded force curve — but white Alps is a bit too jarring. The best compromise in feel to date is the Matias quiet click switch (which does not click): the tactile event is firm and clearly evident but smooth and rounded, and the switch is neither heavy nor light. The only negative point is that it's somewhat juddery. Not scrapy like Cherry ML, but it feels like the slider digs in on the way down. I suspect they would benefit from the factory application of dry lubricant like Alps used to use in the 80s. With a little bit of work, that switch could be the best there is for non-click tactile. I have not tried Matias click yet, as they still won't make a PC Tactile Pro!!!

However, blue Alps is really hard to beat if loud noise is no concern. It's just a huge shame that it was only made for a few years in the mid-to-late 80s, and switch condition is extremely varied.

There are also some rubber dome keyboards with an excellent tactile feel.

PointyFox · « **Reply #15 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:50:05 »

Cherry Green has less tactility than Cherry Blue. The most tactile of the Cherry switches MX Clear or ML/MY. You may want to look into Alps too. They can be very tactile. Topre 55g has the same tactility as a normal rubber dome.

smknjoe · « **Reply #16 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:50:58 »

Can you please provide some examples of boards that have blue Alps?

CPTBadAss · « **Reply #17 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:52:39 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:50:58

Can you please provide some examples of boards that have blue Alps?

Check this out

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #18 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 16:01:14 »

Quote from: PointyFox on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:50:05

Cherry Green has less tactility than Cherry Blue. The most tactile of the Cherry switches MX Clear or ML/MY. You may want to look into Alps too. They can be very tactile. Topre 55g has the same tactility as a normal rubber dome.

Cherry MY is stiff linear. Cherry ML is reduced travel, and pretty scratchy, but they are indeed quite tactile. The scratchiness is the problem with those, that and Cherry's absurd layouts in all their ML keyboards. There are some non-Cherry ML keyboards with reasonable layouts, but they're rare. The nicest one is the Dolch (really, really nice), but that's ANSI and I want ISO. ML is still sold, so anyone could make a proper ML keyboard.

PointyFox · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 16:58:05 »

Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 05 February 2014, 16:01:14

Quote from: PointyFox on Wed, 05 February 2014, 15:50:05
Cherry Green has less tactility than Cherry Blue. The most tactile of the Cherry switches MX Clear or ML/MY. You may want to look into Alps too. They can be very tactile. Topre 55g has the same tactility as a normal rubber dome.

Cherry MY is stiff linear. Cherry ML is reduced travel, and pretty scratchy, but they are indeed quite tactile. The scratchiness is the problem with those, that and Cherry's absurd layouts in all their ML keyboards. There are some non-Cherry ML keyboards with reasonable layouts, but they're rare. The nicest one is the Dolch (really, really nice), but that's ANSI and I want ISO. ML is still sold, so anyone could make a proper ML keyboard.

Whoops. I mistook "typing on a dead octopus" for tactility. Cherry ML are a little "scratchy", but the only problem they have is that they are hard to press off-center.

Anyway, I like the layout of the Cherry ML-4100; got mine for $15 new:

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 05 February 2014, 17:24:36 »

That's actually pretty reasonable for an ML4000-series. You get Ctrl before Fn!

Oobly · « **Reply #21 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 02:23:52 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Wed, 05 February 2014, 14:13:36

Quote from: LouisHjelmslev on Wed, 05 February 2014, 05:10:43
Would really appreciate if anyone with direct experience could shed light on this. I'd like a more tactile feel to my typing experience, and by that, I mean the most pronounced haptic sensation when actuating a key. In other words, the strongest 'bump'. Therefore, I'm considering for my next keyboard, either a Cherry Green, Topre 55, or BS. I know I can look up actuaction forces (80, 55, 60-80), but after using Clears, I know that numbers don't always equate during typing experience due to manufacturing and switch geometry.
Any thoughts?

This has been my personal experience. You can argue specs and "well if you press it down really slowly you can feel a grain of sand (in browns, clears, etc.)" but very few switches I've tried actually give you a noticeable bump to let you know that you have properly actuated the key. I use a keyboard to type not to play games. Bottoming out is not an acceptable or desirable form of feedback. Proper tactile and audible feedback is crucial for me when typing.

I've owned:

blacks - linear no tactile feedback
browns - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
clears - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
topre 45g HHKB - no noticeable tactile feedback when typing
blues - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing (although they are too light for me really)
BS IBM SSK - very noticeable tactile feedback when typing and a nice resistance. They are not too light for me.
"fake" Alps SIIG Mechanical - very noticeable tactile feedback and nice resistance. The feel was sort of "granular" if you will...

Someone call a doctor! This person appears to feel with their ears!

In my experience, Browns have noticeable tactile feedback when typing and Clears even more. Perhaps I just have sensitive fingers.

smknjoe · « **Reply #22 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 02:26:03 »

No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.

Polymer · « **Reply #23 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 04:50:31 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 02:26:03

No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.

Topre has a lot of tactile feedback. Clears definitely have a tactile bump..if you can't feel them the other poster was right, you're feeling w/ your ears...what you're perceiving as tactile is all around sound and has nothing to do w/ the actual tactility of the switch itself. You can just look at your selection and response.

IAmTheGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 05:45:25 »

Don't forget the Matias Switches. The Matias Queit switch I've tried has superior tactility to all of the Cherry Mx switches IMO. I would imagine the Matias Tactile switches are even more so.

tbc · « **Reply #25 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 06:58:09 »

does anyone notice that topre switches actually get more tactile the faster you type?

whereas something like browns gets less tactile.

not sure about BS.

EDIT:

have we all realized the primary reason we're disagreeing is because no one has provided a definition of tactility? what makes something less tactile and what makes it more?

topre users are calling 'domes' curves tactile, blues are calling pyramid curves tactile...BS....how can anyone say it's not tactile?

smknjoe · « **Reply #26 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:11:22 »

Quote from: Polymer on Thu, 06 February 2014, 04:50:31

Quote from: smknjoe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 02:26:03
No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.

Topre has a lot of tactile feedback. Clears definitely have a tactile bump..if you can't feel them the other poster was right, you're feeling w/ your ears...what you're perceiving as tactile is all around sound and has nothing to do w/ the actual tactility of the switch itself. You can just look at your selection and response.

I knew my post was going to get some smart ass responses, but the truth is...that's been my personal experience. I have owned and used all of the boards I've listed and that is what I experienced. The only way I can FEEL a bump on those "tactile" switches is to consciously depress them very slowly and then I will feel a very slight hump if really try hard. While typing at speed it's not perceptible to me. Bules and BS both have very noticeable bumps to me when typing at speed. I enjoy the noise, but you can't deny that both of those switches rely on violent movement or catastrophic mechanical failure to produce a "bump" while the other "tactile" switches I listed use slight ridges to cause an increase and then decrease in resistance that is hardly perceived as a "bump" (to me.)

Edit: the OP even said that after trying clears he didn't think they were tactile (enough.) Obviously, we have similar opinions as to what tactile is. So, I'm just sharing my personal experience with him to try to help. Which is what he asked for.

Polymer · « **Reply #27 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 23:15:35 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 11:11:22

Quote from: Polymer on Thu, 06 February 2014, 04:50:31
Quote from: smknjoe on Thu, 06 February 2014, 02:26:03
No tactile feedback at all compared to blues.

Topre has a lot of tactile feedback. Clears definitely have a tactile bump..if you can't feel them the other poster was right, you're feeling w/ your ears...what you're perceiving as tactile is all around sound and has nothing to do w/ the actual tactility of the switch itself. You can just look at your selection and response.

I knew my post was going to get some smart ass responses, but the truth is...that's been my personal experience. I have owned and used all of the boards I've listed and that is what I experienced. The only way I can FEEL a bump on those "tactile" switches is to consciously depress them very slowly and then I will feel a very slight hump if really try hard. While typing at speed it's not perceptible to me. Bules and BS both have very noticeable bumps to me when typing at speed. I enjoy the noise, but you can't deny that both of those switches rely on violent movement or catastrophic mechanical failure to produce a "bump" while the other "tactile" switches I listed use slight ridges to cause an increase and then decrease in resistance that is hardly perceived as a "bump" (to me.)

Edit: the OP even said that after trying clears he didn't think they were tactile (enough.) Obviously, we have similar opinions as to what tactile is. So, I'm just sharing my personal experience with him to try to help. Which is what he asked for.

Of course it is your personal experience..what other experience could you have an opinion on?

The point is (and this is true for things like golf, etc), what a lot of people "feel" is really what they hear. There is no doubt the switches have a tactile feel to them..that is factual information. The fact that you're not feeling it on switches very similar to blues in tactile feedback shows you're just hearing it.

BS is different..but you should try blocking your ears and see if you can tell if blues are tactile. The bump on that isn't any greater than that of a MX clear.

tbc · « **Reply #28 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 23:25:11 »

isn't the size of the bump: brown, blue, green, clear?

jacobolus · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 06 February 2014, 23:56:11 »

Quote from: tbc on Thu, 06 February 2014, 23:25:11

isn't the size of the bump: brown, blue, green, clear?

As far as I understand, the blue and green sliders are identical, the green switches just have a stronger spring. In general, a stronger spring should serve to make the force drop after the tactile point less noticeable.

tp4tissue · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 07 February 2014, 00:08:01 »

Quote from: tbc on Thu, 06 February 2014, 23:25:11

isn't the size of the bump: brown, blue, green, clear?

I don't think the blue and clear should be compared in terms of bump size...

Even if the protrusion may be similar.. the switch works very differently..

tbc · « **Reply #31 on:** Fri, 07 February 2014, 00:13:36 »

i don't think so either....but people wanted to compare so...

quickcrx702 · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 07 February 2014, 01:00:42 »

I think ergo clears provide the most "click" from the way you described it. Switch out the spring on one of the keys on your clear board with a brown or red spring, it makes the tactile bump MUCH more noticeable. The reason that you don't feel the bump as much with the stock spring is because it is so stiff that you don't really get to feel the actuation point as much. However there is more to tactility than just the bump. The ergo clears feel sticky to many people since the bump is so pronounced. I think a 55g is a better tactile keyboard. It feels more like popping thin bubble wrap at the top of the keystroke, as opposed to a mechanical bump in the middle.

dgreekstallion · « **Reply #33 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 12:44:20 »

Good thread and good points. I need to try out more switch types, it seems.

smknjoe · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 12:51:47 »

Switches without some sort of sudden failure or violent movement do not have the same type of tactile feedback as those that do. I don't care what force charts say or how big the bump is. Which are you going to feel more, a small bump in a road or running into a concrete wall? That's basically the difference in the mechanical action of the MX "bumps" (brown, clear, etc.) vs MX sliders (blues, greens) and BS.

tbc · « **Reply #35 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 13:40:45 »

^

this. if force graphs were all that mattered, then topre is no different than any mx switch. obviously that is not true.

1pq · « **Reply #36 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 13:58:58 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Sun, 09 February 2014, 12:51:47

Switches without some sort of sudden failure or violent movement do not have the same type of tactile feedback as those that do. I don't care what force charts say or how big the bump is. Which are you going to feel more, a small bump in a road or running into a concrete wall? That's basically the difference in the mechanical action of the MX "bumps" (brown, clear, etc.) vs MX sliders (blues, greens) and BS.

I think the audio feedback is throwing you off. Clears definitely give as much or more tactile feedback as blues. BS gives a bit more than clears. Topre is very tactile, but it's hard to compare to mx/bs because it is spread out over a longer bump.

As to TBC, topre force graphs are quite different from MX. the bump is much "wider"--spread over a much longer distance--and much smoother. This is exactly the difference in feel, as well. I think force curves, while they can't tell you everything, are a good tool in comparing switch types.

smknjoe · « **Reply #37 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 14:15:37 »

You are going by graphs and the amount of force needed to depress. I'm talking about the sudden and distinct change you feel when the spring fails and smacks against the barrel/key or the plastic slider smacks against the stem . Two totally different forms of tactile feedback.

It has nothing to do with sound. It has to do with physics and the effect of relatively gradual changes in the amount of force/resistance on what you feel with browns, clears, etc. verses the sudden and violent redirection of energy that you get with blues and BS. Totally different feelings of tactility.

fohat.digs · « **Reply #38 on:** Sun, 09 February 2014, 15:05:46 »

Quote from: dgreekstallion on Sun, 09 February 2014, 12:44:20

I need to try out more switch types

Prepare to be under-whelmed.

Oobly · « **Reply #39 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 08:52:09 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Sun, 09 February 2014, 14:15:37

.... I'm talking .... BS. ...

Blues feel quite similar to Browns actually, with a deeper actuation point. The force graphs match what I feel when I press them. There is an area of almost linear increase in force, a small area of sharper increase, then a sudden decrease. In the case of the Blues this coincides with the white part being released and then hitting the case.

Topres have an even deeper "falling off", but the rate of change is less sudden (not as sharp as with MX) which is reflected in their force graphs.

While it is true that it may be possible to feel the shock of the white part of the switch hitting the base, it's not very likely on a well-mounted and dampened board. It more likely to be felt on a BS board, though hardly a large force.

"Tactility" is "what you feel" (literally: "perceptible to touch") and a force diagram is an accurate representation of that since it represents the forces experienced by your fingertips when depressing the keys. Force diagrams are generally only for vertical force, but Blues have no sideways forces involved in their "click".

I suspect an accurate 3D force diagram of a buckling spring switch would show a small sideways spike when the spring hits and a VERY accurate one would show a tiny spike on Blues.

In other words, for you the small "spike" of the buckling spring or white part of a Blue slider hitting the case adds to your perceived "tactility" of a keyboard. I put it to you, however, that the sound of the click adds even more than the small amount felt through your fingertips. The combination creates the impression of "something clearly happening" at that point.

Therefore, IMHO, the "bump" adds more to the "tactility" of a switch than the "shock", but buckling spring and "clicky" switches enhance the tactile feedback with aural feedback.

Ergo Clears in particular are very tactile, due to the relative forces acting on the slider from the softer spring, large bump and angled forces of the leaf as it rides the bump and pushes on the slider upwards or downwards, increasing and reducing the force experienced:

1pq · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 08:55:52 »

Quote from: Oobly on Mon, 10 February 2014, 08:52:09

Quote from: smknjoe on Sun, 09 February 2014, 14:15:37
.... I'm talking .... BS. ...

Blues feel quite similar to Browns actually, with a deeper actuation point. The force graphs match what I feel when I press them. There is an area of almost linear increase in force, a small area of sharper increase, then a sudden decrease. In the case of the Blues this coincides with the white part being released and then hitting the case.

Topres have an even deeper "falling off", but the rate of change is less sudden (not as sharp as with MX) which is reflected in their force graphs.

While it is true that it may be possible to feel the shock of the white part of the switch hitting the base, it's not very likely on a well-mounted and dampened board. It more likely to be felt on a BS board, though hardly a large force.

"Tactility" is "what you feel" (literally: "perceptible to touch") and a force diagram is an accurate representation of that since it represents the forces experienced by your fingertips when depressing the keys. Force diagrams are generally only for vertical force, but Blues have no sideways forces involved in their "click".

I suspect an accurate 3D force diagram of a buckling spring switch would show a small sideways spike when the spring hits and a VERY accurate one would show a tiny spike on Blues.

In other words, for you the small "spike" of the buckling spring or white part of a Blue slider hitting the case adds to your perceived "tactility" of a keyboard. I put it to you, however, that the sound of the click adds even more than the small amount felt through your fingertips. The combination creates the impression of "something clearly happening" at that point.

Therefore, IMHO, the "bump" adds more to the "tactility" of a switch than the "shock", but buckling spring and "clicky" switches enhance the tactile feedback with aural feedback.

Ergo Clears in particular are very tactile, due to the relative forces acting on the slider from the softer spring, large bump and angled forces of the leaf as it rides the bump and pushes on the slider upwards or downwards, increasing and reducing the force experienced:

Show Image

Thanks for this. It seems a little ridiculous to talk about tactility as "sensing" elements of a keyboard "smack together," and your post is very thorough and seems to be scientifically sound while also experientially correct.

yasuo · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 08:59:51 »

how to matias? i interested too, i've tried mx tactile not suit it seems

what best tactille switch can be i mod like mx,alps?

JPG · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 09:05:01 »

I can't compare many switches before I have not tried many, but I can say that the BS from my model F has so much tactility, it's just amazing.

smknjoe · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 10:51:12 »

What you don't see on paper are the mechanics of how these switches operate. It has nothing to do with the force/resistance you see on those charts. Blues are definitely "lighter" and require less force to actuate and to get over their "hump" (which is bigger on clears) when compared to clears (I'm using these two as an example because I have actually owned both.) However, the blues also have a slider that is allowed to slide down the stem and it abruptly stops. That energy is transmitted to the finger tips of the user. So, there are actually 2 separate parts to the tactility of blues: the resistance you feel when hitting the "bump" (and what you guys keep pointing to in the graphs) which is technically less than that of clears, and then when the slider violently stops on the stem causing the entire key to shake. The same can be said for buckling springs. The mechanics are different, but the results are the same. The keys very noticeably shake when they are physically hit with the spring that failed. The blue keys are physically hit with the slider which causes them to shake. Those physical mechanisms are not present in browns or clears and therefore you don't feel that type of shaking or rattling of the key which is much more noticeable to me than a little "hump" on a force chart.

smknjoe · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 11:01:51 »

A good way to test this is to get a board with blues or BS and another with browns or clears next to each other and depress a key as slowly as possible and just enough until you get over the "hump". The browns and clears will be harder to notice since it was just a slight bump, but the blues an BS both will be very noticeable no matter how slowly you depress the key because of the mechanical nature of their tactility, which is quite abrupt and violent.

smknjoe · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 11:34:03 »

Oobly, you and I have different ideas of what tactile is and I pointed that out in one of my earlier posts. I prefer abrupt and quite obvious feedback as opposed to more subtle and less perceptible feedback. Thankfully, there are plenty of options to choose from.

quickcrx702 · « **Reply #46 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 16:56:28 »

I agree with smknjoe on this, you can't always trust a force graph to accurately depict the feeling of tactility. For example, the 55g has a lower actuation force than a BS based board, yet it feels more tactile. The reason is that the resistance is all concentrated into a much smaller area before it collapses, vs something that actuates more gradually. That is why the 55g has a reputation for being notoriously too heavy, and EK even has a warning on the 55g page indicating that. While the Topre 55g's resistance is technically less than MX black or clear, they have never carried a similar warning on those keyboards when they have them as far as I remember, even though they should technically be more difficult to type on.

tbc · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 17:05:31 »

*sigh*

AGAIN with the force graphs.

correct me if I'm wrong, but force graphs are based off measurements from a machine.

last time I checked, my fingers are not machines. they do NOT apply anything resembling consistent force.

as well, last time i checked, my fingers are connected to my brain which consciously and subconsciously makes adjustments in my applied finger force.

so please, let me know if the force graph machine thingy can properly mimic a human typing on the board.

those graphs are for quality control and detecting 'peak forces'.

of course, what we're ACTUALLY arguing about is different forms of tactility (one which doesn't factor into account distance - topre) and one which does (blues + BS). don't know how matias works; never tried it. the thing is, we've realized this so many posts ago. so what are we even talking about anymore?

quickcrx702 · « **Reply #48 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 17:10:53 »

Quote from: smknjoe on Mon, 10 February 2014, 11:01:51

A good way to test this is to get a board with blues or BS and another with browns or clears next to each other and depress a key as slowly as possible and just enough until you get over the "hump". The browns and clears will be harder to notice since it was just a slight bump, but the blues an BS both will be very noticeable no matter how slowly you depress the key because of the mechanical nature of their tactility, which is quite abrupt and violent.

This is mostly true, but when you swap out the spring in a clear for a brown, the ergo clear becomes arguable the most tactile switch out there. I would say it's more tactile than my favorite 55g which I love for it's tactile feeling, as well as BS, various ALPS that I've used, or MX blue. Even though ergo clears feel more tactile, there are some issues that take away from the overall pleasure of typing on the switch. I've read that you can solve those issues and make them feel much better by lubing them, but I really don't feel like taking apart all of those switches and reassembling them again.

smknjoe · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 10 February 2014, 17:22:26 »

The only other thing that I would like to add is that the force graphs only show half of the story which is - the action of the machine applying force to the key. What is not shown is the re-action of the key to that force that is applied and how that energy is dispersed (back to the machine or your fingers). Remember Newton's third law of motion?

I think someone needs to set up a test rig with an accelerometer and gyroscope and force sensor to get any data that is even close to telling the real story of key switch tactility and haptic feedback.

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Author Topic: Actuation force versus 'tactility' (Read 7862 times)