RF Topre 55g vs Matias Tactile Pro Mini vs MX Clear

[Lammie]

Hi all! I've been reading through geekhack for a long time, but never found the need to post, cause mostly all the questions and answers have aleady been asked before.

Now, I'm really looking for my own holy grail of keyboard. I use my keyboards mainly for typing. Have tried many switches and KB's. (SSK, Unicomp, MX green, red, brown, blue, black, Matias silent, Lenovo Thinkpad KB, Keytronic, Chicony and Topre 45g)


Now it comes down to Cherry mx clear, Realforce Topre 55g or Matias Tactile pro mini.

I also have a FC660c 45g Topre, but find it underwhelming and no springiness. So curious about the 55g, many consider it to be the best keyboard out there. But somehow, I also like the springiness in the what heavier keyboards, so that the fingers bounce back. Sort of MX green springiness, but I find the Greens too tiring for longer sessions. And I've read that the mx clears are also quite stiff for long typing sessions. Swapping to ergo clears isn't an option. So, this leads me to perhaps Matias tactile pro mini. What are your thoughts about these 3 keyboards?

[Daspartic]

If you already have a 45g topre and don't like it that much, I would suggest getting a Model F keyboard.  They use capacitive buckling spring switches which are considered one of the top three best switches along with beam spring and topre.  They are superb for typing and offer NKRO for gaming as well.

[jacobolus]

I take it relative quietness is an important criterion for you?

Or wait, you’re talking about the clicky Matias switches? Wow, I think MX clear, clicky Matias, and Topre 55g are pretty dissimilar. What are your criteria?

Personally, I’m not a big fan of Cherry MX or Topre switches. The Matias switches are pretty nice. What about a Model F?

[Defect]

I like my 55g Topre, but I definitely don't love it.  If price isn't an issue, I'd vote for Topre (wow, never though I'd say it).

If price is an issue, I'd stay very far from the Topre and go with MX Clears.  With Topre, you pay a lot for (IMO) something that's not worth quite that much.  It's great for a $150 Rubber Dome...not sure about $230+ though.

If you had clear-mods in your list, I'd vote for that over Topre.

Have not tried the quiet click matias, but love the click type ones.  I have heard that there are issues with quiet click and deterioration over time.  Have not witnessed this first hand so hopefully other users can add their feedback.

[tp4tissue]

Hi all! I've been reading through geekhack for a long time, but never found the need to post, cause mostly all the questions and answers have aleady been asked before.

Now, I'm really looking for my own holy grail of keyboard. I use my keyboards mainly for typing. Have tried many switches and KB's. (SSK, Unicomp, MX green, red, brown, blue, black, Matias silent, Lenovo Thinkpad KB, Keytronic, Chicony and Topre 45g)


Now it comes down to Cherry mx clear, Realforce Topre 55g or Matias Tactile pro mini.

I also have a FC660c 45g Topre, but find it underwhelming and no springiness. So curious about the 55g, many consider it to be the best keyboard out there. But somehow, I also like the springiness in the what heavier keyboards, so that the fingers bounce back. Sort of MX green springiness, but I find the Greens too tiring for longer sessions. And I've read that the mx clears are also quite stiff for long typing sessions. Swapping to ergo clears isn't an option. So, this leads me to perhaps Matias tactile pro mini. What are your thoughts about these 3 keyboards?

if you want springyness, you need springs..

Rubber cups,  I'd describe as popping a bubble, there's not much to "feel" once the bubble pops. because the pop contrasts so distinctly compared to the rest of the travel.

It's like putting a really strong flavor before a mellow one..    Your senses are desensitized when you receive the initial shock..

The spring switches steadily increase in resistance till the bottom, so there's always a sense of progression all the way down.

[Lammie]

Thank you all for your great advise and comments.
Some of my criteria; it has to be a brand new keyboard, audible but not loud (buckling spring too loud), tactile feeling (tactile bump or resistence from top of key), short to medium key travel, 60%-70% keyboard, some space between keys, good for at least 8 hours a day typing, not tiring.

So, I'm looking for a keyboard where I can type fast, accurate and as natural (fingers almost naturally type the correct letter, effortless as possible) as possible.

In fact, I quite like the Unicomp, but find it too loud. So, the Keytronic 3600U2 (ergo weighted), what I'm using right now at the moment, find it quite nice; Audible, yet not too loud. Keys between are well spaced, keys not too stiff not too light, tactile feel..but not tenkeyless unfortunately.
I find myself quite enjoy the Chicony and Dell SK-8115 as well..So it sounds like the Matias tactile pro 4 is going to fall off the list.

So, it comes down to 'rubberdome-ish' feel keyboards, like the mx Clear or the Topre 55g. A bit concerned about the 'heaviness/stiffness' of both keyboards. Cause, I bought the MX green, but kinda regret it, cause I find it too stiff. I've read the mx Clear may also be experienced as stiff, but because it is 55g actuation force and 100g bottom out, perhaps mx clear is less stiff than mx green? I did enjoy the Ghetto greens' feel by the way.

Also, I've read many users find the Topre 55g totally different from the 45g. Like its a whole other experience. 55g is more springy, gives more tactile feeback than the 55g. But then, I heard some find the 55g tiring for long typing sessions. Please help me out.

[jacobolus]

Thank you all for your great advise and comments.
Some of my criteria; it has to be a brand new keyboard, audible but not loud (buckling spring too loud), tactile feeling (tactile bump or resistence from top of key), short to medium key travel, 60%-70% keyboard, some space between keys, good for at least 8 hours a day typing, not tiring.

What’s “some space between keys” mean? Nearly all keyboards have keys spaced 3/4" apart (note: also the diameter of a US penny).

I think the Matias quiet-switch keyboards sound like your best bet based on your criteria listed. The switches are overall less work to actuate than either MX green or MX clear while being more crisply tactile than either, the actuation point is high in the stroke, there are a few sizes of keyboards available, and it’s still audible but quieter than the other switches you’ve listed.

Why do you need something brand new? I still think you should try a floss-modded Model F. Yes, it’s pretty loud, but it’s also very satisfying to type on. Then again, they aren’t exactly small.

[Daspartic]

Just so you know, the switches on the FC660c were tested to be around 50g (by Daerid?), so I'm not sure if the 55g topre is going to give you that revolutionary feeling that you're looking for.  Matias might be the way to go for you.

It really is a shame you aren't interested in the Model F, it really is an incredible keyboard.  I know it's loud, but you could always get one for home use. 

[Lammie]

With space between the keys, I mean for example, on the Model M the keys are more seperated from each other than on a Lenovo thinkpad keyboard. The keys are less cramped up on each other. More spacious, like on manual typewriters. So, I don't accidentally press the wrong keys.

Yeah, I find the Matias quiet switch quite nice too. Less grindy, more tactile feedback and a bit heavier than mx-brown. Some say it is feels like a mx clear somewhat, but less heavy, and actuation points are different. But still, find it somehow a 'boring' keyboard. I don't feel like it's "WOOOW".

Seems, then, I'll go for the Topre 55g or I'll just keep my Matias quiet and make it daily driver. Are there any users here who have tried both 45g and 55g? Seems majority like the 55g more. "Tried a Topre 55g, and never looked back, search ended." Is it really that great?

[Oobly]

I'd have to say it's between 55g Topre or ErgoClears for you, then. 55g Topre is a fair bit lighter than Greens, so I don't think it would be tiring.

I think you may like stock Clears. They're a bit lighter than Greens overall and definitely softer in the initial part of the press, but the resistance increases more rapidly. They have nice rebound action and the tactility is great.

ErgoClears have even better tactility, softer press and more "pop" than stock Clears.

I would say get a Clears board (KUL 87 comes to mind) and if you find them fatiguing, mod them with 62g springs, but you mentioned switching to ErgoClears is not an option. Is that because you don't want to desolder switches?

If you don't like the feeling you can sell the board (boards with Clears are in demand so you should get a good price for it) and get a 55g Topre board.

[Lammie]

I've watched a video about the Model F. Think it is still quite loud..Don't know about the feel.

Also, about the Topre switch 45g. find it quite odd, that after the tactile bump, the whole keyfeel just collapses into empty feel. Totally, no resistence or stored energy (like in a spring). In the latter example, where the key jumps up 'on itself' or even bounces the finger back up, making a more effortless typing experience.
By the way I've tried to press the spacebar on the FC660C 45g. It seems the spacebar is heavier than the rest of the keys. Can it be that the spacebar is 55g and not 45g? If yes, then I get an idea how the 55g might feel.

[Defect]

No topre can be described as springy.

After the initial collapse of the rubber cup, there is nothing pushing up against your fingers.  It's rubber dome.  It's very smooth,  and I like it, but I can't agree that for the ridiculous markup price that you're getting your money's worth.

As TP4 said, MX has a spring which is constantly pushing up against your finger, increasing in force as you compress it more.

I wish I could have the smoothness of Topre but the cushion of MX.  Closest I came was with lubed ghost blacks.

[Oobly]

The spacebar on the FC660C has extra springs to make it a bit harder to press, so it won't feel the same as 55g Topre. Topre have a 5g spring under each dome, but it doesn't contribute much to the feel. If you want that pushing back feeling you need stronger springs.

Again I recommend Clears or ErgoClears. My favourites: plate mounted, 62g, worn in, lubed, trampoline and latex modded, stickered ErgoClears with a stock (still modded, just stock spring) Clear for spacebar. But then again, that's just my preference. Try stock Clears and go from there. They have a nicely progressive spring rate which really does push back nicely close to bottom out, but is soft at the top of the press.

The FC660M comes with an option for Clears (http://www.vendio.com/stores/E-sports-Gaming-equipments/item/shop-mechanical-keyboard-by-sw/leopold-fc660m-mechanical-keyb/lid=36810036), as does the KUL ES-87 TKL (https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=keyed_up_labs,tenkeyless&pid=es87u_cc_bbb_al).

[Lammie]

Again, thanks for the quick and detailed responses.

I already have bought too many keyboards, for just trying out. Would like to sell some kb's, but in Holland there isn't as much interest as in US, and Ebay.com don't allow me to sell internationally. Can I sell here on geekhack by the way? So, indeed, around $250-$300 bet for a Topre 55g or $150 a mx clear, may be a bit too much money..Unless I could try it in person and know for sure which kb I truly love.

Actually, I got my eyes on the Chicony made Genius i200 tk-less kb. Wide space between keys for more accuracy, low price, good not mushy rubberdome, tactile feel, audible feedback, and the low keys. This may result in very fast and accurate typing. (in fact I've compared my HP standard keyboard made by Chicony with my RF FC660C 45g. And just felt that the Topre is a more refined rubberdome in terms of feel, and it is much more buttery smooth. But I like the Chicony bouncing the key back upwards, something I miss from Topre).

And as a second option, I'm thinking to get the Cherry ML; Cherry G84-4100 or G84-4101 with dye sub pbt caps. => G84-4101SPAUS. Anybody know where I can buy this kb new? Heard these are perfect, when lubed. Something more between Cherry mx brown and clear, what I like. And also have short throw, high actuation point. Sort poorman's Topre.

[Lammie]

Just ordered the Genius i200 from Amazon.com.
Still looking for the Cherry G84 with US layout and dye sub PBT keycaps.

[dante]

Just ordered the Genius i200 from Amazon.com.
Still looking for the Cherry G84 with US layout and dye sub PBT keycaps.

like these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHERRY-ML4100-PS2-MINI-FOOTPRINT-KEYBOARD-G84-4101SPAUS-/321056801981
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cherry-ML4100-PS2-Mini-Footprint-Keyboard-G84-4101SPAUS-/121172462881

Used G84's make the best G84's.  Someone else has hopefully worn down that grindy action.

[Lammie]

Great! Looking for a brand new one though. Wear it out myself 

[Justintoxicated]

You have tried way more switches than me, but although I love typing on my topre I think I get what your saying.  I think it would be helpful to know, out of the switches you tried, which one you like the best so far.  If you like the browns then I would probably try the clears myself. I like lighter weighed keys so it stops me from grabbing a board with clears to try myself.  Someday I will try them though!  For me I seem to type faster on browns than topre, but I enjoy typing on the topre more.  There is also those new orange knock off mx Kailh switches that some people seem to like.

[Lammie]

Oh yeah those orange switches look very nice. But they are more for gamers than for typing aren't they? Not interested in those by the way.
Well, I just kinda feel restricted and maybe some time loss because of the high keys and long key travel. I can type really fast on scissor switches, but those are quite hard and tiring on the fingers after long typing sessions. Island style switches look less 'cool' and oldschool, but I find the spacing quite useful, higher accuracy.
Guess, I arrived at the short throw mech switches kb's now. Instead of buying the MX Clear KUL ES-87 (can't mod to ergo clear), I'm buying a black Cherry g84-4100LPAUS tomorrow and lube it later if neccessary.

Just found out about the Topre short throw kb's. They also come in uniform 55g. So that would be my last kb to try out probably. Anyone tried these Short Topre's out? Where can we buy them except Taobao/Yahoo Japan Auction?

[jacobolus]

Guess, I arrived at the short throw mech switches kb's now. Instead of buying the MX Clear KUL ES-87 (can't mod to ergo clear), I'm buying a black Cherry g84-4100LPAUS tomorrow and lube it later if neccessary.

I don’t think you’ll find these satisfying at all, but good luck.

[intelli78]

Yep, you are going to regret that. There is a reason ML isn't popular.

[fatmav]

Now it comes down to Cherry mx clear, Realforce Topre 55g or Matias Tactile pro mini.

I own all three. Matias Tactile Pro mini is going to be too loud unless you have your own office with a closed door. It's a different kind of loud from a buckling spring board, but they are equally capable at annoying my colleagues. However, if noise is not an issue, by all means get one. In fact, I am currently struggling how many copies to get in the current Masssdrop. (If it has USB3, I would buy several. Seriously.)

My Code Clear "broke in" after two months of exclusive use. Honestly, it's not bad now that the keys feel a bit softer. However, to me, the springs are still a bit on the too heavy side and I would not want it to be my only switch everyday. It's just too tiring in some afternoons when I was forcing myself to learn it in those two months.

55U, well, it can be quite disappointing if you prefer crispness. I seriously suggest you try it out first if you can. Of all the keyboards we have for us to try in the office, the 55U gets medium-high average love but no one is crazily in love with it to want to own a copy for their own desk. (Sample size: ~20 people.)

[Oobly]

Now he's ordered a rubber dome board and is looking at Topre short throw and ML switches..... I give up...   

The truth is it's all about personal preference of what switches, keycaps, etc. they like the most for a particular task.

Yes, you can sell stuff here on GH (see the Classifieds section), but you need to have 60 legitimate posts first.

[dante]

Yep, you are going to regret that. There is a reason ML isn't popular.

I loved my ML board to bits; it's one of the very few options on the market for a low profile mechanical keyboard.

However, the layout turned out to be too cramped for me.  I toyed with the idea of coming out with a 87/104 ML keyboard but my electronics skills are sorely lacking.

[Lammie]

The ML G84-4100LPAUS is in the mail. Can't wait to check how the short keys feel with the ML's.
You know more low profile (short key) mechanical keyboards other than the before mentioned Topre short-throws?
By the way, the Topre short-throws have a really awkward right shift-key placement. Don't like it. Not getting one, if I found one.
Then ergo clears with short keys will be second option. What I could do is buy the new gen G80 keyboard. These also use low design keys. I'm thinking to add o-rings on the G80, then the keytravel will be as short as possible on a MX switch.
Not sure, but the G80 seems to be not plate mounted. So I can easily change the springs or even totally different cherry mx switches without soldering? If this is the case..Ergo clears are way easier to realise.

[Lammie]

Got the chance to try out my new Cherry G84 ML switches. And I have to say, I like it very much! In fact, I like it the most of all my keyboards so far! The small form factor, all the keys are there where they should be, nice laser edged pbt caps, nice price, 83 keys. The spacebar feels solid. The keys don't get stuck or anything. Feels like a MX brown but heavier, actuation on top, perfectly what I like. Maybe a bit gritty, but I can live with it. The bump isn't as sharp edged as on my Quiet pro. What is positive. Lovely!