Author Topic: Thinking of entering the world of topre.  (Read 2140 times)

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Offline Moralless

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Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 11:14:33 »
So after browsing this forum for a few weeks, my interest in topre switches have grown exponentially and now I want to give them a go. However, with the high price point that these topre keyboards (I have been mainly looking at the FC660C and HHKB) have, I have a few questions that hopefully you can answer before I start spending the cash.

1. I have seen people describe the feel of a topre as having a tactile bump when it comes back up. Where exactly does this tactile bump come from? Is it from when the plunger comes back into contact with the housing? Or is it from the resistance of the rubber dome similar to the traditional membrane keyboards? I am having a hard time imagining what the bump could feel like if the main moving parts are the rubber domes and plunger.

2. How similar are topres (55g or 45g) to lubed stock mx clears? I know it's hard/useless to compare cherry mx switches to topres, but these are my only point of reference (and traditional membrane keyboards).

3. What makes the Leopold FC660C often seen as inferior to the HHKB (assuming that popularity = quality)? Ignoring the aesthetics and form factor, are the quality of the keyboards vastly different? Because I plan to install novatouch stems and 55g rubber domes into either the Leopold FC660c or HHKB P2.

4. Does the Leopold FC660c have random stem placement in its spacebars in the same way the FC660m has for the cherry version? Keyboard customisability is important to me.

And finally just to clarify, do the topre keyboards use different spacings for the stems i.e. there's no point installing the novatouch sliders for the spacebars as no cherry spacebar will ever fit.

Offline Fragil1ty

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 12:15:25 »
So after browsing this forum for a few weeks, my interest in topre switches have grown exponentially and now I want to give them a go. However, with the high price point that these topre keyboards (I have been mainly looking at the FC660C and HHKB) have, I have a few questions that hopefully you can answer before I start spending the cash.

1. I have seen people describe the feel of a topre as having a tactile bump when it comes back up. Where exactly does this tactile bump come from? Is it from when the plunger comes back into contact with the housing? Or is it from the resistance of the rubber dome similar to the traditional membrane keyboards? I am having a hard time imagining what the bump could feel like if the main moving parts are the rubber domes and plunger.

2. How similar are topres (55g or 45g) to lubed stock mx clears? I know it's hard/useless to compare cherry mx switches to topres, but these are my only point of reference (and traditional membrane keyboards).

3. What makes the Leopold FC660C often seen as inferior to the HHKB (assuming that popularity = quality)? Ignoring the aesthetics and form factor, are the quality of the keyboards vastly different? Because I plan to install novatouch stems and 55g rubber domes into either the Leopold FC660c or HHKB P2.

4. Does the Leopold FC660c have random stem placement in its spacebars in the same way the FC660m has for the cherry version? Keyboard customisability is important to me.

And finally just to clarify, do the topre keyboards use different spacings for the stems i.e. there's no point installing the novatouch sliders for the spacebars as no cherry spacebar will ever fit.


1. I don't know the specifics, but they act like browns in terms of their bump.


2. Never used Clears, so cannot compare, but the 45g feels closer to a combination of reds/browns.


3. HHKB is superior as it has dip switches, full layout embedded into the keyboard, more options on the board, feels a lot better in terms of build quality (imo).


4. Not sure, never used them.


This probably hasn't helped much as I cannot be completely technical because a lot of your questions involve technical mindedness and I don't even mod my boards, hopefully someone else can provide you with more in-depth answers to your questions.
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Offline Matter

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 12:19:36 »
Will be awesome if there was a tutorial on how we can transfer the stems of the novatouch onto the hhkb.

That will be ideal for most hhkb users i believe

Offline exitfire401

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 12:27:20 »
So after browsing this forum for a few weeks, my interest in topre switches have grown exponentially and now I want to give them a go. However, with the high price point that these topre keyboards (I have been mainly looking at the FC660C and HHKB) have, I have a few questions that hopefully you can answer before I start spending the cash.

1. I have seen people describe the feel of a topre as having a tactile bump when it comes back up. Where exactly does this tactile bump come from? Is it from when the plunger comes back into contact with the housing? Or is it from the resistance of the rubber dome similar to the traditional membrane keyboards? I am having a hard time imagining what the bump could feel like if the main moving parts are the rubber domes and plunger.

2. How similar are topres (55g or 45g) to lubed stock mx clears? I know it's hard/useless to compare cherry mx switches to topres, but these are my only point of reference (and traditional membrane keyboards).

3. What makes the Leopold FC660C often seen as inferior to the HHKB (assuming that popularity = quality)? Ignoring the aesthetics and form factor, are the quality of the keyboards vastly different? Because I plan to install novatouch stems and 55g rubber domes into either the Leopold FC660c or HHKB P2.

4. Does the Leopold FC660c have random stem placement in its spacebars in the same way the FC660m has for the cherry version? Keyboard customisability is important to me.

And finally just to clarify, do the topre keyboards use different spacings for the stems i.e. there's no point installing the novatouch sliders for the spacebars as no cherry spacebar will ever fit.

1) 55g feels like a clear, but lighter (by no means like a brown though) 45g is mushy like a brown. I personally suggest 55g. The tactile bump comes from the dome buckling.

2) Refer to my first answer. Feels great.

3) The 660C is by no means inferior to the HHKB, it's just that a lot of people seem to prefer case mounted to plate mounted.And let's be honest, This hobby is all about personal preference. I like both equally.

4) IIRC, yes, the spacebar is smaller than either the HHKB or RF spacebar, which will result in not being able to find a replacement.

Spacing: Novatouch sliders are fully compatible with both RF and HHKB boards. The spacing sizes are all the same. I believe that the 660c uses a 6 unit rather than 6.25 unit spacebar though, resuuulting in the aforementioned issues. Other than the spacebar, all of the unit sizes are the same between the 660c and normal cherry layouts.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 October 2014, 12:30:27 by exitfire401 »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 13:21:56 »
It's not a bad thing..

but.. honestly  it's NOT all that different from rubber dome..

Rubber dome is cheaper, and works just as well.

Offline saturnotaku

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 13:26:08 »
So after browsing this forum for a few weeks, my interest in topre switches have grown exponentially and now I want to give them a go. However, with the high price point that these topre keyboards (I have been mainly looking at the FC660C and HHKB) have, I have a few questions that hopefully you can answer before I start spending the cash.

1. I have seen people describe the feel of a topre as having a tactile bump when it comes back up. Where exactly does this tactile bump come from? Is it from when the plunger comes back into contact with the housing? Or is it from the resistance of the rubber dome similar to the traditional membrane keyboards? I am having a hard time imagining what the bump could feel like if the main moving parts are the rubber domes and plunger.

2. How similar are topres (55g or 45g) to lubed stock mx clears? I know it's hard/useless to compare cherry mx switches to topres, but these are my only point of reference (and traditional membrane keyboards).

3. What makes the Leopold FC660C often seen as inferior to the HHKB (assuming that popularity = quality)? Ignoring the aesthetics and form factor, are the quality of the keyboards vastly different? Because I plan to install novatouch stems and 55g rubber domes into either the Leopold FC660c or HHKB P2.

4. Does the Leopold FC660c have random stem placement in its spacebars in the same way the FC660m has for the cherry version? Keyboard customisability is important to me.

And finally just to clarify, do the topre keyboards use different spacings for the stems i.e. there's no point installing the novatouch sliders for the spacebars as no cherry spacebar will ever fit.

1. Here's a good illustration of the "bump" in action



2. Topre is going to feel closer to a traditional membrane board than anything MX. In fact, think of Topre as a very high quality rubber dome - if rubber dome is like a Toyota Camry, then Topre is a Lexus LS. If your only MX frame of reference is Clear, then you'll probably want to stick to 55g. I personally am not a fan of heavy switches of any kind, so I'm sticking to 45g. They are definitely soft but not at all what I would consider "mushy."

3. While I've not owned either the FC660 or HHKB, they are both regarded as having excellent build quality. The difference is in case versus plate mounting, as has been pointed out already. Discounting the fact that I own two Realforce keyboards (plate mounted) and going purely by sound, plate mounted is more appealing to my ears. This is the result of listening to many typing videos of the HHKB (Type S included), FC660, and Realforce. It all comes down to personal preference.

4. Others will be able to provide better guidance here, though I have to say what you're proposing is going to be extremely costly as you'll need to buy three keyboards. The FC660C and HHKB are running roughly the same price ($250 give or take); the Novatouch is $160-200; and you'll need a 55g Realforce, which is another $215. Naturally, it's your money, but it might be better to go one step at a time. Start with the 55g Realforce to see if you like the weight of the domes. If that's cool, grab either the FC660 or HHKB to decide on a layout, then the Novatouch to do the mod. If you end up not liking the 55g, it's going to be very easy to sell it here and get back most of your money. Then you'd have to decide if you want to try a lighter Topre switch or stick with MX.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:04:42 by saturnotaku »

Offline long813

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 13:34:14 »
I'd like to add onto the FC660C vs HHKB quality difference. There are two different types of FC660C's now. The black key caps use laser etching, while the grey and grey/white key caps use dy-sub. When I was reading reviews on the FC660C, many negatives were on the laser etching and how they font fades rather quickly. With the dye-sub this is not an issue.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 October 2014, 17:44:10 by long813 »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:16:18 »
So after browsing this forum for a few weeks, my interest in topre switches have grown exponentially and now I want to give them a go.
Definitely aim to try one first. They’re not for everyone (I personally find them uninspiring).

Quote
1. I have seen people describe the feel of a topre as having a tactile bump when it comes back up. Where exactly does this tactile bump come from?
On the return stroke, a tactile Cherry MX switch hits its little slider bump and that *reduces* the force it puts back into your finger; in extreme cases with an MX clear stem and a light spring, it even sticks entirely.

By contrast, a buckling rubber dome or sleeve, including a Topre switch, gives a little bit of extra "pop" or "bounce" on the upstroke, when the dome/sleeve pops back up into its original shape. You get a little bit of this effect with e.g. an Alps or SMK switch, and you get more of this effect with e.g. an IBM beam spring or an Alps plate spring switch.

Quote
2. How similar are topres (55g or 45g) to lubed stock mx clears? I know it's hard/useless to compare cherry mx switches to topres, but these are my only point of reference (and traditional membrane keyboards).
Not very similar. The Topre switch has a much less clearly defined tactile point; it’s more rounded feeling, and smoother. The slider feels much more solid, but the overall switch feel is kind of mushy.

I can see why people like Topre switches, but they’re not for me; I like a very definite tactile break so my fingers get a clear idea when the switch has actuated. (Note, I also don’t like Cherry MX switches. YMMV.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 October 2014, 15:20:48 by jacobolus »

Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 18:01:30 »
For all the excitement about topre, I find myself thinking that a good quality scissor on a rubber dome could provide almost the same resulting feel.   

As much as I have learned to enjoy good rubber I occasionally miss the old clicky monster ibm keyboards.
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Offline wes1099

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 18:26:52 »
I really want a topre board too, but I would need a TKL and TKL topre boards are so expensive.
                                      
[Leopold FC660C]     [GON NeRD 60]    [Infinity Keyboard]    [ Model M Silver Label]
[Topre 45g Silent]     [Gateron Black]    [Cherry MX Black]     [Model Number 1390636]
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Offline demik

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 19:01:54 »
I really want a topre board too, but I would need a TKL and TKL topre boards are so expensive.

they go for much cheaper used.

and really, once you buy it you don't need another board.
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Offline HipsterPunks

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 19:03:57 »
I really want a topre board too, but I would need a TKL and TKL topre boards are so expensive.

they go for much cheaper used.

and really, once you buy it you don't need another board.

well more topre boards.. but atleast you'll have a favorite switch now
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Offline Tiramisuu

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 19:08:14 »
type heaven is pretty affordable
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Offline saturnotaku

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Re: Thinking of entering the world of topre.
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 06 October 2014, 20:08:26 »
type heaven is pretty affordable

Except that it's full size and the poster to whom you are responding (at least I assume) needs TKL.