This seems fishy. Does anyone know about home owners assocation (HoA) budgets?

[Psybin]

So like a lot of people in Maryland I live in a housing community where we are forced to pay a Home Owners Assocation monthly dues for.. stuff.

One thing they do actually do is mow my tiny lawn and trash and recycling is picked up (by the county) , and part of the $80 a month is supposed to cover this.

My house was built in 2006, I moved there in 2009. Since then I've only seen one “proposed budget” but it wasnt for this community, it was for “one similar to it”.

Last week they sent a budget for 2015, and this really seems fishy to me. I walk the dog or jog the neighborhood all the time, so I see what is being done or not, and this just seems like a lie.

Attached are the budgets and the email correspondence between the lovely lady at the HoA and myself. Please comment. Maybe I'm just delusional. 

This first one for 2013 and 2014 is what I got from their website, she didn't want to send me an actual budget I guess.


This is what I got in the mail.

Me
Good morning,
Yesterday I received the proposed 2015 Budget, however previous year budgets were not included in the packet. Can I request a copy of the actual 2013 budget?

HoA
Good Morning,
We do not include previous years budgets in the proposed new budget mailing to save on costs.
The fees have remained at $80 per month since the community was started.
Hope this helps.

Me
Thank you for getting back to me.
Is there a digital copy I could look at?

HoA
I will send you a copy later today.
Thank you

Me,
Thank you, have a great day!

HoA
I see that you have not set up your homeowners account on our new website.  There is a lot of information on it that you may find useful. To set up your account- please go to and follow the instructions- Your security code is XXXX- which you will need to set up your account. I have also attached more instructions.

Me,
Thanks, I signed up and looked at the budget for last year.
Sorry to be an annoyance, but when I saw that proposed budget for 2015 and some of the costs I can't help but to question their legitimacy, so I was curious to see what the HoA actually spent on some of these lines.
Alleyway maintenance $7,000 (there are no alleys)
Doggie Stations $5,500 (for bags? the stations are already there)
Snow Removal for the meeting facility $5,000 (for 5 or so parking spots? I'll manually shovel it for half the price)
Miscellaneous $10,000 (wow?)

HoA
Please see my responses below in RED.
Thanks, I signed up and looked at the budget for last year. Sorry to be a annoyance, but when I saw that proposed budget for 2015 and some of the costs I cant help but to question their legitimacy, so I was curious to see what the HoA actually spent on some of these lines. Alleyway maintenance $7,000 (there are no alleys) There are three private alleyways that those residents pay an extra $83 a year- they are located between Wineberry and Witchhazel, behind 521 Twin Leaf and between Snowberry and Hazy Dawn—these are the rear entry garage homes.

Doggie Stations $5,500 (for bags? the stations are already there) This is also for additional stations to be installed and yes, the bags do cost.

Snow Removal for the meeting facility $5,000 (for 5 or so parking spots? I'll manually shovel it for half the price) Since we have not had the meeting facility done yet- hard to say—the sidewalks will also have to be cleared. Depends on the weather.

Miscellaneous $10,000 (wow?)   Yes- The community is comprised of 115 acres – and  lots of trees--– there will always be miscellaneous costs- We just had a large tree that fell behind Coralberry and repairs had to be made- as well as the tree had to be removed--- just as an example. Also- there are many delinquent accounts at Hollywoods.  These really affect the bottom line- these accounts have been turned over to a collection attorney. Hope this helps.

Me
Thanks for getting back to me. One last question. In the event $15,000 isn't spent on doggie stations over 2013,2014, and 2015, or some other comparable expense, what happens to the excess in funds? Are there ever any refunds given to home owners who are required to pay the $960 a year? And what governing agency audits HoAs for Maryland?

Thank you

HoA
If the money is not spent in any particular category – it stays in the operating account.  Tax returns are done every year for the association. No refunds are ever given. Thank you.

Me
Oh.. well thanks for your time. It just brings more questions than answers though.

HoA
Please be sure to attend the meeting on November 5 then.

[tp4tissue]

If you're worried that someone is skimming the funds..

Guess what.. THEY ARE....

But what can you do about it...  that just the nature of finance..

[intelli78]

If you're worried that someone is skimming the funds..

Guess what.. THEY ARE....

It's... definitely possible. You just have to decide whether it's a battle you're willing to fight. If you ask more questions at the meeting and they can't answer, maybe you can partner up with other homeowners and talk to a lawyer about options, but there will be an expenditure of time, money, and very possibly bureaucratic harassment by the HoA in exchange for justice.

[Psybin]

Well I figure since 15000 in doggie stations and 17000 in alley maintenance is fluffing at its best.

I'm not staying there much longer, a year or two max. I found that the community has a Facebook page. Once they accept my request I'll bring up some of this. Very politely of course. I don't want to piss off the guys who are no doubt robbing this thing blind.

[tp4tissue]

If you're worried that someone is skimming the funds..

Guess what.. THEY ARE....

It's... definitely possible. You just have to decide whether it's a battle you're willing to fight. If you ask more questions at the meeting and they can't answer, maybe you can partner up with other homeowners and talk to a lawyer about options, but there will be an expenditure of time, money, and very possibly bureaucratic harassment by the HoA in exchange for justice.

It's like trying to fight your bank...  they're bigger than you...  the amount of people WILLINGLY being scammed is >> than you... 

What can you do...  Truth ?   NOTHING....

The only way to fight the power, is to become super rich yourself and BE that power..


Chance are however, by the time you achieve power, you would've been too far absorbed by the dark side to use it for good anyway..


SO... in the end, full circle...


It's hard accepting BEING scammed..

But, it's readily easily pleasingly easy to Scam OTHERS...


That's human nature.. what's in YOU ??

[fohat.digs]

I have lived in a neighborhood with an association and served on the board and other committees for many years.

Believe me, it is a nasty and thankless job and very few people appreciate the value of an association in maintaining the value of YOUR property. A property in a well-maintained community is worth THOUSANDS of dollars more than an identical property in a poorly-maintained area.

You seem to have highlighted an odd selection of items. While I do not know what your community is like, these things do not look out of line to me. I hate dog**** and think that people who allow their dogs to foul other people's property are despicable. Any amount of money spent on "doggie stations" is probably money well spent.

And reserves are important, too. Our community is approaching 20 years old, and we spent $100K on the clubhouse in the last couple of years to give it a badly-needed facelift. Our swimming pool requires $50K-60K per year, all told, and this stuff adds up. Maintaining streets and alleys makes a big difference to the "curb appeal" of the neighborhood in general.

All this adds up to making your home worth more, while you live there, and when you sell it.

[Psybin]

That is the response I would have expected from the lady I emailed fohat, but since it was nothing like that it made me wonder more.
I highlighted some stuff I wanted to show a co-worker who lives near me.
The dog stuff is fine, but 15000 in Fido House baggie dispensers ($139 each new) and a case of 2000 bags ($79) just stuck out as padded to me. There aren't that many of them, and its not a huge area.
And there are no alleys to speak of. Just a lot of shady stuff. I don't really care enough to chase anyone down. I just posted to here to share and get a wider perspective on it. If the fees were significantly more than $80 a month or if they were pushing to raise them I would actually try to take action, but now, meh, I'll ride it out until I move.

[heedpantsnow]

I have nothing to add but to say I'm sorry you're having to deal with this; I will be in your shoes soon as we are house-hunting and paying attention to the HOA fees is a strong part of our decision making process.

Good luck.

[fohat.digs]

HOA fees is a strong part of our decision making process.

HOA fees are usually a good investment.

I am in the remodeling business myself, and spent over a decade on the Board or Directors and Covenants Committee of a medium-large semi-upscale neighborhood association.

Within seconds after I drive into a neighborhood, I can usually tell what level of effort is being invested in maintenance. Sometimes homeowners simply take care of it themselves, without oversight. But under the free-for-all scenario, it is very common to see 5%-10% of the properties looking decidedly worse than the rest.

And if there are significant common areas, it shows there more than anywhere.

This hard to detect in the first few years, but after a decade, or 2, or 3, uncontrolled neighborhoods usually start looking a lot more shabby.

[Psybin]

I'm not really dealing with anything, it's more if a curiosity than anything. They aren't trying to raise my rates and haven't bothered me when I'm wrenching on my car in the driveway. It just seemed a bit fishy and mildly interesting and thought I'd share. 

The development next to mine has a much looser and cheaper HoA but looks shabby for sure. Mine looks pretty good. Burnt Hill Trail, Aberdeen MD will show street views for most of it.

[fohat.digs]

They aren't trying to raise my rates and haven't bothered me when I'm wrenching on my car in the driveway.

I have never understood the use of the word "they"

Why the adversarial attitude when this is a "community association" of yourself and your neighbors?

If you want to raise pigs and keep cars on blocks, buy 3 acres outside of town.

People who live in covenants-protected neighborhoods do so for a reason, and it is part of a binding legal commitment. It always disturbs me when people move into such a community and then complain about it after the fact.

Run for the Board of Directors (there are 5-10 people elected for 1-3 year terms, I'm sure), and make a difference.

Neighborhood associations are republics, just like the United States. Democracies are simply too unwieldy.

Or maybe not. That is another discussion.

[tp4tissue]

They aren't trying to raise my rates and haven't bothered me when I'm wrenching on my car in the driveway.

I have never understood the use of the word "they"

Why the adversarial attitude when this is a "community association" of yourself and your neighbors?

If you want to raise pigs and keep cars on blocks, buy 3 acres outside of town.

People who live in covenants-protected neighborhoods do so for a reason, and it is part of a binding legal commitment. It always disturbs me when people move into such a community and then complain about it after the fact.

Run for the Board of Directors (there are 5-10 people elected for 1-3 year terms, I'm sure), and make a difference.

Neighborhood associations are republics, just like the United States. Democracies are simply too unwieldy.

Or maybe not. That is another discussion.

The issue arises because the balance of power is CLOSE...  as in the association really doesn't have significant leverage over any individual owner..

So. in these situations.. the owners can not be placated by total dominance.


Vs you or I saying, fvk bama...  well, like that's gonna work, it won't.. so we live and not talk about it..

[fohat.digs]

the association really doesn't have significant leverage over any individual owner.

Not true.

Covenants are legally binding components of the deed to a piece of property. When you buy a property with covenants you are strongly bound to them. Ask a lawyer.

That said, depending on how consistently the Association has behaved and enforced covenants historically will determine their standing and ability to enforce them going forward. Again, ask a lawyer.

Of course, a large percentage of lawyers are complete *******s and use their occupation to bully others, so many of our biggest problems, as an Association, have come in conflicts with lawyers who wanted to do something obnoxious and against the rules on their own property.

But they were generally very happy that we made everybody else follow the rules.
 

[tp4tissue]

the association really doesn't have significant leverage over any individual owner.

Not true.

Covenants are legally binding components of the deed to a piece of property. When you buy a property with covenants you are strongly bound to them. Ask a lawyer.

That said, depending on how consistently the Association has behaved and enforced covenants historically will determine their standing and ability to enforce them going forward. Again, ask a lawyer.

Of course, a large percentage of lawyers are complete *******s and use their occupation to bully others, so many of our biggest problems, as an Association, have come in conflicts with lawyers who wanted to do something obnoxious and against the rules on their own property.

But they were generally very happy that we made everybody else follow the rules.
 

legally binding =/= leverage..

[fohat.digs]

legally binding =/= leverage..

After some period of days/weeks/months of escalating requests, beginning with very polite emails or notices left in mailboxes, and extending to the 3rd letter from the Association attorney, each generally giving 10 days to remedy the problem, our standard procedure is a $10 per day fine until the problem is solved.

If it is a question of unpaid fees, all privileges are suspended. If the problem is rectified promptly, we have always waived the fine.

If uncollected, this becomes a lien on the property that must be paid before it can change hands.

We have found this to be an effective form of leverage.

[heedpantsnow]

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for details about various expenses.

One of the houses we were looking at had abnormally high HOA fees.  We looked into it, and there were several things that turned us off:
1) TV and DSL internet is included and compulsory.  if you want satellite or don't want it, too bad.  The developer also signed an agreement giving one internet company exclusive rights to operate in there.  Can't even do it if you want a different kind of internet (e.g., cable).
2)  The developer received a bond from the city to develop the neighborhood.  In return, that neighborhood has higher property taxes and each resident pays ~$30/month to pay off the bond.  Some of our friends who live in that neighborhood weren't even aware of this; they hide it as some sort of municipal fee in their HOA budget.

No offense to fohat.digs, but you can't trust people to always act in your best interest.  However, you CAN usually trust someone to act in their own best interest (i.e., the developer).

[vivalarevolución]

An HOA can be a breeding ground for a political crook.  One of my work buddies served on a HOA committee.  The guy in charge would always try to use the funds and credit card for dinners and entertainment and such.  Now that guy is a state representative.  What sort of financial Tom Foolery is he doing now? 

Any sort of organization needs to be held accountable.