Who the hell actually makes these things?

[ConscienceDrop]

Hey guys, I've been wondering this for awhile but I just cant seem to find an answer. it might be a stupid question, but here goes:

Who is actually in charge of designing a keyboard for a company? what is the name of their job?
Is it something that any R&D department takes care of?

I'm sure its very different when comparing a company like Dell/Microsoft to companies like ducky/filco/leopold.

I'm surprised how little I really know about this whole process. And I have rarely, if almost never, seen this type of subject get brought up here.

Has anyone ever had experience in such a field?

[SpAmRaY]

Not sure how it fits in with what you are asking but from what I've learned most companies we as enthusiast think of such as ducky are actually really small companies.

Maybe places like Dell would call them Input Engineers.

[bcg]

Most like the job title would be "electrical engineer" or "computer engineer" (which is really just an electrical engineer with a focus on computer systems & software).

I'm sure they have sort of designers involved too in order to come up with the look of the case, fonts to use, etc.

[CPTBadAss]

I bet Dell doesn't even have a position like that anymore. I bet there's a subcontractor that works with an OEM/outside company that they simply buy their keyboards from.

I think it's called a keyboard designer? I believe you can find more information through justin.wu's Tex thread. IIRC, there's another guy who has helped design keyboards around the site too but I can't recall his username off the top of my head.

[ConscienceDrop]

Not sure how it fits in with what you are asking but from what I've learned most companies we as enthusiast think of such as ducky are actually really small companies.

Maybe places like Dell would call them Input Engineers.

i know that filco's keyboard branch has about 400k revenue yearly. That is small, but someone still has to do the job.

Most like the job title would be "electrical engineer" or "computer engineer" (which is really just an electrical engineer with a focus on computer systems & software).

I'm sure they have sort of designers involved too in order to come up with the look of the case, fonts to use, etc.

Yes I'm sure they have an electrical engineer at some stage, but i doubt he would be the one who actually designs the thing. more likely they hire electrical engineers to look over a design and to clear up any issues.

but maybe I'm totally wrong.

I bet Dell doesn't even have a position like that anymore. I bet there's a subcontractor that works with an OEM/outside company that they simply buy their keyboards from.

I think it's called a keyboard designer? I believe you can find more information through justin.wu's Tex thread. IIRC, there's another guy who has helped design keyboards around the site too but I can't recall his username off the top of my head.

i had a hunch bigger companies would just outsource it. but thank you for the link i will look into that more.

[CPTBadAss]

Hopefully someone with some more information will post or you can report back with what you find. I'm not 100% sure but I remember that Tex thread and the consequent products he's turned out.

[davkol]

Note that most keyboards are based on manufacturer's prototypes.

[pbtforever]

They are called Razer Marketing.

This is a joke.

[Findecanor]

"Industrial designer" is a job title I've seen going around. At least, they define the look and have a role in engineering the plastic parts.

[Data]

"Industrial designer" is a job title I've seen going around. At least, they define the look and have a role in engineering the plastic parts.

Yeah, that's basically it. This job would typically have a part engineering, part art background/education.

[tp4tissue]

Electrical Engineer.. Process Engineer.. Industrial Designer...

It will take all of Those people..

They might have 1 guy who does a bit of everything.. but  yea.. there's tons of crossover work.

[FrostyToast]

Nerds. Fsking nerds.

Why are we talking about keyboards? I thought this forum was about ramen and people posting while drunk... about ramen. (also, lo mein)

[tbc]

Nerds. Fsking nerds.

derr...fscking nerds right?


isn't a keyboard really simple for someone trained in electronics?  as in a single person could spec the components and design the pcb?  is a keyboard sensitive to electric noise or require really high quality components?

[ConscienceDrop]

Nerds. Fsking nerds.

Why are we talking about keyboards? I thought this forum was about ramen and people posting while drunk... about ramen. (also, lo mein)

We discuss the best keyboards for typing while drunk and eating ramen

Personally I'm looking for a programmable num pad that I can bind to post verbal harassment and switch bias rants, so that when I'm so sloshed that I cant even see my keyboard I can just mash the num pad and continue to contribute!

[SonicRevolution]

I have over the past year learned a lot about manufacturing in general, specifically keyboard manufacturing and all the players involved.  It's quite fascinating because you can ask that question about a whole lot of things.  Who makes your kitchen knife?  Who makes the chair? Who really makes your car? 

The bottom line is just like anyone of these consumer products, it's vast and there's seem to be no hard and fast rule about anything.  As for "design" most companies outsource industrial design and mechanical engineering although the big companies have a few "in house - industrial designers.  But they would oversee a whole line of products, not just one device.

Right now though, because of fast cheap computers, 3D printing and crowdfunding, it's democratized consumer products like it's never been, making it quite exciting.  There is also the danger of it becoming a bubble - some say it already is a big bubble,  basically pumping out useless products that don't need to be. 

I certainly had to do a lot of soul searching to figure out just what is going to make the products I develop more than a gimmick or a niche toy.  It's something that will separate the fads from true works of art that can last.  These are tough questions.

[Data]

I don't see a bubble at all.  Small-scale manufacturing has tapped into a market that has existed for decades but was never economical until the technology finally caught up.  If your "niche products" are selling, then there's a market for them and they've already justified their existence.  And there's always the possibility that you've invented something many people didn't even know they wanted.  I think we're on the right track.

[davkol]

I don't see a bubble at all.  Small-scale manufacturing has tapped into a market that has existed for decades but was never economical until the technology finally caught up.  If your "niche products" are selling, then there's a market for them and they've already justified their existence.  And there's always the possibility that you've invented something many people didn't even know they wanted.  I think we're on the right track.

Ever heard of "black stones" that somehow "improve" sound quality? The hi-end audio market is full of rubbish like that. Meanwhile, the low-end audio market is flooded with designer products that don't exactly focus on actual audio reproduction either. I can see parallels in the peripheral market.

[Data]

I don't see a bubble at all.  Small-scale manufacturing has tapped into a market that has existed for decades but was never economical until the technology finally caught up.  If your "niche products" are selling, then there's a market for them and they've already justified their existence.  And there's always the possibility that you've invented something many people didn't even know they wanted.  I think we're on the right track.

Ever heard of "black stones" that somehow "improve" sound quality? The hi-end audio market is full of rubbish like that. Meanwhile, the low-end audio market is flooded with designer products that don't exactly focus on actual audio reproduction either. I can see parallels in the peripheral market.

I suppose you're right. But isn't that indicative of a growing need for consumer education (a need which can be satisfied in large part by the Internet and social media) rather than of a glut of new junk products? We've had snake oil salesmen in one form or another throughout history.

[dorkvader]

It takes a lot of time to educate onesself, and a lot of people don't like to learn. Education is a great response to the people who do, but it's also not usually an issue for them. It's much easier for people to just buy something based on review or testimonials.

Myself, I don't care about the scientific aspects of an amp or DAC. I don't care about the THD, crosstalk, etc. I don't care if it sounds "warm" "lush" or "smooth". I'm only interested in the engineering, and the engineering decisions that went into making it. I'm interested in the challenges they faced and their ways of solving them.

As a result I ended up with a DIY kit that was cheap, fun to build, and extremely interesting. It sounds good to me, and that is all I want.

But many people don't know what they want. It's much easier to be told. Perhaps this is a cynical outlook, but it is an explanation that coincides with my observation. As a result it's easy to see how the current state of "snake oil" can come about.

While Sonicrevolution is right about many things, there are lots of companies that employe engineers for product design and development, not just the big ones. Larger companies will have whole teams of engineers designing and testing their products. They may even employ or contract the services on an industrial designer to pretty it up a bit. I've worked with Industrial Design students a lot and they have some great ideas, only some of which are financially viable from a design and manufacturing perspective.

My father is an Engineer, primarily focused on product design and development. He now works for Green Mountain Coffee Roasters ("Keurig") He said one reason he went in to the type of engineering he does is so that he can point to an item on a shelf and say "I made that".

Other engineers are critical to the industry but aren't so high-profile to consumers. CPTbadass designs things that many people won't really see, but thousands of lives depend on him doing his job properly. My Brother's friend works as an engineer making industrial robots, so his products most people never see, but without them some things can't be made, or would be too expensive to reach a wide audience. Such things are necessary to the industry as a whole, and to promote progress in Technology.

In some cases a company designs their own product and pays a manufacturer to produce it. In some cases they just put some additions and a logo on a product designed by another company (like the WASD V1). In other cases, another engineer is paid to design a product, a different company is paid to make it, etc. There's lots of options. This network of companies relying on each other is probably a good thing, and is certainly indicative of modern global commerce.

[davkol]

I don't see a bubble at all.  Small-scale manufacturing has tapped into a market that has existed for decades but was never economical until the technology finally caught up.  If your "niche products" are selling, then there's a market for them and they've already justified their existence.  And there's always the possibility that you've invented something many people didn't even know they wanted.  I think we're on the right track.

Ever heard of "black stones" that somehow "improve" sound quality? The hi-end audio market is full of rubbish like that. Meanwhile, the low-end audio market is flooded with designer products that don't exactly focus on actual audio reproduction either. I can see parallels in the peripheral market.

I suppose you're right. But isn't that indicative of a growing need for consumer education (a need which can be satisfied in large part by the Internet and social media) rather than of a glut of new junk products? We've had snake oil salesmen in one form or another throughout history.

Here's the thing though. Most customers absolutely don't want to put any intellectual effort into the shopping process, and marketing has an edge, they're backed up by quite a lot of research in psychology after all. It's critical to have unbiased reviewers that would dismantle marketing BS, but we're pretty far from that. Think of gorilla marketing (i.e. "reviews" by paid shills), relationships between the industry and professional reviewers that introduce additional bias (subjectivist enthusiasts often already have their own agendas; what about freebies? have you noticed how Apple blacklisted so many techsites after the #bendgate? or that the AnandTech stuff is being hired?)… or even the the simple fact that plenty of reviewers are uneducated themselves (especially in the peripheral department).

[tbc]

ya....seeing tech reviewers trying to review a keyboard is cringeworthy

[ConscienceDrop]

one thing that i think separates keyboards from something like audiophile grade equipment is that in general:

keyboards are sort of accepted to have a 'hard limit' to how good they can feel. The switch, plate mounted or not, the caps. these are all virtually the same with minor variances in quality from one board to another.
these mx browns + a plate + pbt caps = almost every single set of browns/plate/pbt
there are certain aftermarket things like lube and stickers, but those are usually individually installed and not necessarily expensive at all.



the audiophile community on the other hand is insane. Its usually a hobby people with lots of money get into (like hunting humans), and just like hunting humans its not clear if you really get what you pay for.

this "raised tube with crystals  to bounce away electrical intterfettence" is probably not worth the 5000$ some guy is paying for it.
but there is no clear way to really show that its the same as this high quality cable for 40$

because there is no real standardization in the materials and forms that audiophile equipment takes its much harder to just 'look' at something and by its face tell how good its made or if its worth the money.

with a keyboard i can look at it and tell if its in the right price range for what im getting. with the hardest element to eyeball being build quality usually (imo).
its CLEAR that aftermarket stuff like aluminum housings and novelty/artisan caps are just extra stuff for fun.


but with audiophile stuff its impossible to tell what the **** is 'necessary'. do i really need a pair of electrostatic headphones and a 7000$ headphone driver, a dac on top of all that and raisers for my system? does this **** actually make a difference or is it just nice.

nobody will actually tell you.

most people are gucci with a nice set of headphones around 250-350. and if you are really hardcore dac/signal amp.
but even then trying to be a 'smart buyer' for even these simple items is a ****ing nightmare.

[davkol]

Actually, it's simple with audio gear. You can do blind testing quite easily. You can take a look at measurements. However, in case of keyboards, *you can't*.

You can't do a blind test with keyboards, except some switch modifications, like lubrication, dampening, spring stiffness or, umm, stickers. There's barely anything to measure; can you think of anything other than (anti)ghosting, sound and perhaps switch force/travel? But who knows how to interpret the switch stiffness/feedback graph without trying it in person? Also, nobody knows, what's actually good in that regard. It's purely subjective in the end. Yeah, ergonomic studies look at muscle activity and all that jazz, but how many people look into that?

…and then take a look at every other Topre thread. Many Topre fanboys will tell you that you have to use a Topre keyboard for several weeks to appreciate it. It's exactly the same kind of argument subjectivist audiophiles use to avoid blind testing.

[ConscienceDrop]

Actually, it's simple with audio gear. You can do blind testing quite easily. You can take a look at measurements. However, in case of keyboards, *you can't*.

You can't do a blind test with keyboards, except some switch modifications, like lubrication, dampening, spring stiffness or, umm, stickers. There's barely anything to measure; can you think of anything other than (anti)ghosting, sound and perhaps switch force/travel? But who knows how to interpret the switch stiffness/feedback graph without trying it in person? Also, nobody knows, what's actually good in that regard. It's purely subjective in the end. Yeah, ergonomic studies look at muscle activity and all that jazz, but how many people look into that?

…and then take a look at every other Topre thread. Many Topre fanboys will tell you that you have to use a Topre keyboard for several weeks to appreciate it. It's exactly the same kind of argument subjectivist audiophiles use to avoid blind testing.

topre fanboys are deluded beyond help. they are clearly at the same level as audiophiles.

in regards to knowing which switch is right for you its easy to buy a switch tester.
once you have that, you basically know what you are getting on any board you buy. with the other differences to consider being thing like plate mounted or not, caps material etc.

they are more like flavors than they are anything else. so you pick and then you know what you are getting.



thats not the case with headphones, and in my personal experience headphone graphs and all that stuff is basically meaningless.
you can 'blind' test headphones if you can go to a place that has all the headphones you want to try.

but even still headphones come as a unique "package" there is not x/y/z headphone speakers and a/b/c ear cups.
i cant look at a 400 senheiser and just know what it will basically sound like compared to a 400$ shure
its impossible, they are entirely different and all of the differences are 'subjective' besides general build quality.

and with audiophile gear usually the 'small' improvements past the 400+~ range are exponentially costly.
sticker switches are not really costly. you can reasonably try them and hate them and take them off and not give a single ****.
thats not the same with 500$ headphones.

[davkol]

in regards to knowing which switch is right for you its easy to buy a switch tester.
once you have that, you basically know what you are getting on any board you buy. with the other differences to consider being thing like plate mounted or not, caps material etc.

they are more like flavors than they are anything else. so you pick and then you know what you are getting.

You're ignoring everything outside the Cherry MX realm. Moreover, pressing individual switches and touch typing on a whole keyboard are two very different tasks.

thats not the case with headphones, and in my personal experience headphone graphs and all that stuff is basically meaningless.
you can 'blind' test headphones if you can go to a place that has all the headphones you want to try.

but even still headphones come as a unique "package" there is not x/y/z headphone speakers and a/b/c ear cups.
i cant look at a 400 senheiser and just know what it will basically sound like compared to a 400$ shure
its impossible, they are entirely different and all of the differences are 'subjective' besides general build quality.

and with audiophile gear usually the 'small' improvements past the 400+~ range are exponentially costly.
sticker switches are not really costly. you can reasonably try them and hate them and take them off and not give a single ****.
thats not the same with 500$ headphones.

You're ignoring the whole chain behind the speakers/headphones themselves, and properly done measurements give a pretty good bigger picture what's the sound signature like. There is obviously the quite important part like getting a good fit, but I can easily tell that <insert random modern bassy headphones> aren't for me just from looking at the graphs.

[dorkvader]

I've determined that my brain filters and fixes stuff too much for me to try and pursue sensory perfection (tactile keyboards or audio electronics) so instead I focus on interesting engineering aspects of it. I have learned to be happy with lots of different feeling and sounding stuff.

[ConscienceDrop]

its not hard to track down a single switch of anything really. and once you have felt a mech board its not hard to get a good picture of what an entire board with a swith you have felt is like.
it may be hard to tell how much you will like typing on that board but that's a different issue.

What you are saying is like if you went into an ice cream place and asked for a sample, you get chocolate and like it and the guy asks do you want a cone and you say "well i know i liked the sample but the cone is an entirely different experience it might be too much chocolate for me".
thats not the point. the sample is a quick and easy tool to inform your purchase, and you are working with something thats not to hard to make a mental leap to guess whether or not you would like a full cone of it.

headphones are entirely different.
sound signatures do a good job of showing you if a headphone is obviously bad. beats by dre you can tell are **** and you can tell because the bass is so terribly out of wack.
but buying 400$+ headphones is a nightmare. its impossible to tell if any of the extra **** is actually making it sound better and at the end of the day it might not even be to your liking in terms of warmth/trebble whatever.

a 500$ MX keyboard is, really, usually a 200$ high quality MX board with 300$ of extra **** added on. its easy to tell what the functional parts are and what the luxury parts are.

its impossible to do this same thing with audiophile headphones. nobody can tell you "oh yea all these headphones around 300 are basically the same some have better build quality some better x/y; pick one".
nobody can tell you where the diminishing returns kick in, or what elements of a headphone or audio setup are supposedly 'luxury' or not.

[davkol]

I've determined that my brain filters and fixes stuff too much for me to try and pursue sensory perfection (tactile keyboards or audio electronics) so instead I focus on interesting engineering aspects of it. I have learned to be happy with lots of different feeling and sounding stuff.

QFT

Actually, I don't even care about engineering or anything like that anymore, just comfort plus some appreciation for quality. It's amazing to observe how the brain can _equalize_ or alter sensory input.

its not hard to track down a single switch of anything really. and once you have felt a mech board its not hard to get a good picture of what an entire board with a swith you have felt is like.
it may be hard to tell how much you will like typing on that board but that's a different issue.

Please, tell me, where I can find a single buckling spring, Omron switch used in Logitech G910 or Topre switches in different "weights". I'm not even asking for vintage or modded switches.

It's not like switches really matter in the end, but it's been turned into one of the major keyboard features.

What you are saying is like if you went into an ice cream place and asked for a sample, you get chocolate and like it and the guy asks do you want a cone and you say "well i know i liked the sample but the cone is an entirely different experience it might be too much chocolate for me".
thats not the point. the sample is a quick and easy tool to inform your purchase, and you are working with something thats not to hard to make a mental leap to guess whether or not you would like a full cone of it.

Nope. There's an obvious difference between listening to speakers and listening to properly setup speakers in a dedicated room, should we go back to audio analogies.

but buying 400$+ headphones is a nightmare. its impossible to tell if any of the extra **** is actually making it sound better and at the end of the day it might not even be to your liking in terms of warmth/trebble whatever.

its impossible to do this same thing with audiophile headphones. nobody can tell you "oh yea all these headphones around 300 are basically the same some have better build quality some better x/y; pick one".
nobody can tell you where the diminishing returns kick in, or what elements of a headphone or audio setup are supposedly 'luxury' or not.

Blind/ABX testing.

a 500$ MX keyboard is, really, usually a 200$ high quality MX board with 300$ of extra **** added on. its easy to tell what the functional parts are and what the luxury parts are.

Tell me about it. $500 keyboards are Korean customs, Maltron and some premium Topre keyboards. How do you determine the difference between them and $200 "equivalent" keyboards?

[divito]

headphones are entirely different.
sound signatures do a good job of showing you if a headphone is obviously bad. beats by dre you can tell are **** and you can tell because the bass is so terribly out of wack.
but buying 400$+ headphones is a nightmare. its impossible to tell if any of the extra **** is actually making it sound better and at the end of the day it might not even be to your liking in terms of warmth/trebble whatever.

a 500$ MX keyboard is, really, usually a 200$ high quality MX board with 300$ of extra **** added on. its easy to tell what the functional parts are and what the luxury parts are.

its impossible to do this same thing with audiophile headphones. nobody can tell you "oh yea all these headphones around 300 are basically the same some have better build quality some better x/y; pick one".
nobody can tell you where the diminishing returns kick in, or what elements of a headphone or audio setup are supposedly 'luxury' or not.

The thing that's always amused and irked me regarding those that spend inordinate amounts of money on headphones, is all the people that get "good" ones, but don't improve the source.

[ConscienceDrop]

I've determined that my brain filters and fixes stuff too much for me to try and pursue sensory perfection (tactile keyboards or audio electronics) so instead I focus on interesting engineering aspects of it. I have learned to be happy with lots of different feeling and sounding stuff.

QFT

Actually, I don't even care about engineering or anything like that anymore, just comfort plus some appreciation for quality. It's amazing to observe how the brain can _equalize_ or alter sensory input.

its not hard to track down a single switch of anything really. and once you have felt a mech board its not hard to get a good picture of what an entire board with a swith you have felt is like.
it may be hard to tell how much you will like typing on that board but that's a different issue.

Please, tell me, where I can find a single buckling spring, Omron switch used in Logitech G910 or Topre switches in different "weights". I'm not even asking for vintage or modded switches.

It's not like switches really matter in the end, but it's been turned into one of the major keyboard features.

What you are saying is like if you went into an ice cream place and asked for a sample, you get chocolate and like it and the guy asks do you want a cone and you say "well i know i liked the sample but the cone is an entirely different experience it might be too much chocolate for me".
thats not the point. the sample is a quick and easy tool to inform your purchase, and you are working with something thats not to hard to make a mental leap to guess whether or not you would like a full cone of it.

Nope. There's an obvious difference between listening to speakers and listening to properly setup speakers in a dedicated room, should we go back to audio analogies.

but buying 400$+ headphones is a nightmare. its impossible to tell if any of the extra **** is actually making it sound better and at the end of the day it might not even be to your liking in terms of warmth/trebble whatever.

its impossible to do this same thing with audiophile headphones. nobody can tell you "oh yea all these headphones around 300 are basically the same some have better build quality some better x/y; pick one".
nobody can tell you where the diminishing returns kick in, or what elements of a headphone or audio setup are supposedly 'luxury' or not.

Blind/ABX testing.

a 500$ MX keyboard is, really, usually a 200$ high quality MX board with 300$ of extra **** added on. its easy to tell what the functional parts are and what the luxury parts are.

Tell me about it. $500 keyboards are Korean customs, Maltron and some premium Topre keyboards. How do you determine the difference between them and $200 "equivalent" keyboards?

what are you talking about?  lol.

you can buy a cheap ass model M almost anywhere to 'test' the switches so price is not a barrier there. you might not be able to get a topre key chain in a weird weight, i honestly dont think that matters much at all, they feel basically the same its not hard to imagine a heavier topre switch. omron are new; soon you will be able to get a single switch easily.

the icecream analogy is for MX switches, or similar form keyboard switches. that was the point of it. it was not extended to the audio gear because i was specifically saying that the audio gear is NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL.
thats the difficulty in audio equipment.

then you go and say blind test audio equipment
again something nobody can do in general. again the exact problem with buying audio equipment.

the maltron is not a standard keyboard. what a asinine example. i guess i also could not tell what a keyboard that has half the buttons on the floor and half on the ceiling would feel like
if you ignore my entire point and mention keyboards that break all the 'standard' conventions im talking about you can say that.
but all audio equipment is like that. ALL of it.
and only none standard kinds of mechanical keyboards are like that so even then that comparison falls entirely flat.

The thing that's always amused and irked me regarding those that spend inordinate amounts of money on headphones, is all the people that get "good" ones, but don't improve the source.

people who buy 500$ headphones to listen to albums on youtube is something that happens a disturbingly large amount

[davkol]

Perhaps because the source is already good enough?

[divito]

Perhaps because the source is already good enough?

Onboard sound + Youtube is 'good enough source' for $200+ headphones? Razer's headsets could do just as good a job.

Not to mention all the people getting in on Massdrops and using mp3s on their phone or something. True audiophiles (to which I'm not), invest in proper sources and necessary hardware to make their headphone investment also worthwhile.

[davkol]

you can buy a cheap ass model M almost anywhere to 'test' the switches so price is not a barrier there.

Tell me about it. I have seen two buckling spring keyboards for sale in last three years in the Czech Republic. For $100 and it was pure luck.

you might not be able to get a topre key chain in a weird weight, i honestly dont think that matters much at all, they feel basically the same its not hard to imagine a heavier topre switch. omron are new; soon you will be able to get a single switch easily.

Sounds nothing like actual reviews (e.g., "30g is almost linear").

then you go and say blind test audio equipment
again something nobody can do in general. again the exact problem with buying audio equipment.

WTF?

Some stores let you lend equipment and try it *for about a week at home*, even here in the Czech Republic, one of the most ridiculous markets around. Software for ABX testing is publicly available. You can ask a family member or a friend to physically handle gear for you.

the maltron is not a standard keyboard. what a asinine example. i guess i also could not tell what a keyboard that has half the buttons on the floor and half on the ceiling would feel like

WTF? I've listed basically all keyboard (available to individuals) I can think of in the given price range. You can go on and describe how'd you examine differences between some Korean custom and a Das 4, Filco MJ2 or KUL.

Perhaps because the source is already good enough?

Onboard sound + Youtube is 'good enough source' for $200+ headphones? Razer's headsets could do just as good a job.

Not to mention all the people getting in on Massdrops and using mp3s on their phone or something. True audiophiles (to which I'm not), invest in proper sources and necessary hardware to make their headphone investment also worthwhile.

A $30 behringer has a pretty decent DAC and if the cans aren't difficult to drive, why not?

[ConscienceDrop]

you can buy a cheap ass model M almost anywhere to 'test' the switches so price is not a barrier there.

Tell me about it. I have seen two buckling spring keyboards for sale in last three years in the Czech Republic. For $100 and it was pure luck.

you might not be able to get a topre key chain in a weird weight, i honestly dont think that matters much at all, they feel basically the same its not hard to imagine a heavier topre switch. omron are new; soon you will be able to get a single switch easily.

Sounds nothing like actual reviews (e.g., "30g is almost linear").

then you go and say blind test audio equipment
again something nobody can do in general. again the exact problem with buying audio equipment.

WTF?

Some stores let you lend equipment and try it *for about a week at home*, even here in the Czech Republic, one of the most ridiculous markets around. Software for ABX testing is publicly available. You can ask a family member or a friend to physically handle gear for you.

the maltron is not a standard keyboard. what a asinine example. i guess i also could not tell what a keyboard that has half the buttons on the floor and half on the ceiling would feel like

WTF? I've listed basically all keyboard (available to individuals) I can think of in the given price range. You can go on and describe how'd you examine differences between some Korean custom and a Das 4, Filco MJ2 or KUL.

i think we just see things differently my dude, i wish you all the best in life and i love you.

[tbc]

using a single switch to find oyt if you will like a board is COMPLETELY wrong.

the mx green shenanigans alone is more than enough proof.

[davkol]

i think we just see things differently my dude, i wish you all the best in life and i love you.

That's gay. >_<

I fail to see, how we see things differently, i.e. I don't see how you see things. I'd like to know, how it's clear what you pay for in case of keyboards.

the audiophile community on the other hand is insane. Its usually a hobby people with lots of money get into (like hunting humans), and just like hunting humans its not clear if you really get what you pay for.

In audio, it's easy. Do a blind/ABX test, and if there's no perceivable difference, you're paying for mindgames and bells&whistles.

How is the difference between Filco Majestouch2 and CM Storm QuickFire Rapid clear? How do you quantify differences between Filco MJ2, KUL, Das, WASDv2, Ducky Premier and some Leopold?

I'm curious, because I sometimes review hardware, keyboards included, but I still wonder, what would be the most informative format for readers (potential customers).

[tbc]

audio is horrible....but it's quite reasonable compared to wine.  there are hundreds of years of snake oil and pretentiousness there