Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 739512 times)

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Online Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5500 on: Thu, 08 April 2021, 09:49:32 »
I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

Kailh box switches?

what would you like different in an mx? truly curious. in my case i've gone from searching for the holy grail to enjoying the great tools i have on my desk. same thing with hi-fi. not trying to remove that last veil of silk in front of the mic or gaining a wider soundstage to enjoying wonderful music. def does not mean i didn't spend time and money trying for a while  :D

I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

I know you didn't ask me, but I think literally everything is a fair consideration.  ;D

MX does nothing outstandingly other than just work when you need them to. Everything could be improved upon, depending upon taste. The only MX switch I still use on a regular basis is MX red, because linears are linears ... so good enough.

?
  • Sensible
  • Convenient when the kb is moved
  • Looks good

One downside is that it gets caught on everything, including itself. I run my cables through the cable management holes on the OEM stands for monitors when suitable and it is a pain dealing with coils whenever I swap boards a lot. I don't think anybody cared much about cable management back then though other than keeping it from getting damaged.

One solution I have used is a PS/2 extension cable that is about 6 foot long that is not coiled at all. Just in case the computer is sitting at a distance greater than the SDL cable can reach. This way, I avoid putting strain on the original cable and still have the flexibility of movement. In its simplest form, it may be primitive, but then again, you can always get an SDL to USB cable if you wish. I find my solution to be very inexpensive and it works both ways very well.

Sure, that makes sense. At the end of the day though, unless you really need the cable to reach varying lengths without any excess you can usually just tuck somewhere, why have it coiled? I think it made sense for vintage boards, and maybe for some today. I don't mind the cable just being straight and longer though myself.


(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Will he not even ship it directly to where you're located?

I've not checked, I could probably get one out here one way or another, but at $400 I'd like to try it before buying. And... these days I need some degree of quiet for family reasons.

You're missing the boat, unfortunately. Capacitive buckling spring prices are getting ridiculous on the secondhand market and who knows when Ellipse may pack up and stop taking new orders once production slows. One of Orihalcon's unrestored F107s just sold for $2,400 on Ebay. I still can't even wrap my head around that.

I hope you manage to find one to try.

Yeah, MX-style switches are consistent, and they're what we have, but I wish there were more switches that used the same mount as MX-styles but a different mechanism. Something that leads to more inherent tactility, maybe? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, all I know is that I want my tactiles to be heavy, have a good bump you can really feel, and if I'm using clickys in something like a macro pad (where that extra feedback helps, at least for me, for knowing that the button's been pushed quickly without bottoming out for things like soundboard triggers and meme chat macros), I'm always wishing for more tactility and a deeper-sounding click than is probably possible with current designs. That's not to say MX-styles don't have their place, they certainly do, but I would love to see more varied designs. Maybe I just haven't done enough research?

We have Topre, which is my strong preference. I thought I didn't really care that much, but recently moved back to Realforce when my desk setup changed and my split keyboard cables were too short to accommodate this. Turns out that Topre beats the living daylights out of Outemu Skies (which were selected after trying a good handful of silenced tactile options) and I haven't been able to bring myself to move back (longer cables have been here for weeks now). We also have vintage options- my bucking spring experiences is what makes me want to to try an F some day. I've had Alps, which I also preferred over MX. Even good scissor switches.

Yes, I think that if more people were willing and able to try vintage alternatives to MX, a lot less people would be so worried about further modifying/refining MX. I think people would be less likely to be swayed to abandon it if their preference is already for relatively light and/or rounded tactile switches without much refinement/complexity of feel though.

MX is what we have, but MX is... such a low level of mediocrity that we are wallowing in (getting back to the thread topic). This isn't the best analogy, but it makes me think of East Germans aspiring to own Ladas. Or that old English phrase, about making a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

Agreed

That said, I believe that it was Maledicted who recommended Box Jades and Navies to me last year. I did try those, and of all the MX variants I got in (of a dozen or so) they impressed me most- there were actually interesting, and not more 'run of the mill almost exactly the same as the next switch'. Unfortunately, I can't use clickies at the moment.

We need more options like those click bar switches out there so that people can enjoy how varied and interesting switches can be without buying something 30+ years old.

I enjoy spring ping.

I enjoy ping in all forms as well, rattle too usually. Depends on the board and switches though.

Offline HungerMechanic

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5501 on: Thu, 08 April 2021, 12:50:24 »
I agree. Manufacturers who experiment with novel designs should be encouraged. I like what Kailh did with the BOX designs, and it has provided some interesting alternatives to stock MX.

I've already mentioned the Zeal attempt to create an ALPS-like switch that is MX-compatible, and that should be encouraged as well.

Really, we don't need to use Cherry designs. Just something that can fit in an MX PCB and use MX keycaps.

Offline Leopard223

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5502 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 18:51:55 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Offline bkrownd

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5503 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 20:55:23 »

  Not quite an unpopular opinion, but an outsider's confusion - what is up with the huge number of micro-"vendors" for keyboard/keycap group buys?  It seems odd that a handful of them haven't yet hoovered up the lion's share of group buy activity. 


Offline NoteMakoti

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5504 on: Fri, 09 April 2021, 21:58:42 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..
I’d say the opposite, what with people obsessing over stock smoothness, 63.5G springs, and flexible plates lately.

Offline doggo1dance

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5505 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 06:24:33 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision

Offline Igby

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5506 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 19:55:48 »
- The Keychron K4 layout (I don't know what it's called) is superior to TKL. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k4-wireless-mechanical-keyboard-version-2
- Backlit keys are essential.
- Coiled cables with breakaways are silly.
- 40% ortholinear keyboards are insane but possibly genius.
- Rubber domes are fine.

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5507 on: Sat, 10 April 2021, 21:53:27 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision

It's standard marketing for selling people things they don't need.  Because it's virtually impossible to justify the sale of the product based on Utility or Performance, as almost all keyboards do the same thing and equally well.

So how do we market the product and justify the sale, by telling people that Because they're DIFFERENT and SPECIAL in some way, their Pointless acquisition mentality Deserves a product.  This is Vanity marketing.

Online yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5508 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 03:07:45 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision
i do think that the over-apologetics are a reaction to the gatekeepers, both exist and oppose each others, one try to make everyone feel good, the other try to make everyone feel bad and leave them alone. i kinda often fall into the 1st category i think, but i'd rather be there than a gate-keeping jerk. maybe our forum have more of the apology kind but from what i hear reddit seems to have more gatekeepers, so who knows who wins overall. and youtubers often have a monetary incentive in getting the community to grow, so they are rather unlikely to fall into the gatekeeper archetype.
although they are kinda right, i am a big fan of big heavy clicky boards (M122 being my current favorite) and 2 friend of mine both hate my M, one likes lite clickies and the other very lite tactile, all 3 opinions are valid.
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Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5509 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 07:47:26 »
I'm in the 'preference' camp, but think that lots of keyboard options (switches, cases, caps) these days just suck. I don't really see any conflict with thinking both at the same time.

Online Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5510 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 12:03:05 »
- The Keychron K4 layout (I don't know what it's called) is superior to TKL. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k4-wireless-mechanical-keyboard-version-2

I have no need for a numberpad myself. To each their own. Both would be usable for me as I don't care about space between the nav cluster and/or arrow keys, etc. It is a big deal for a lot of people though.

- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

- Coiled cables with breakaways are silly.

Agreed. I think all "artisans" are silly unless you want a very specific aesthetic that you can't easily find otherwise and/or you want something more durable than can be purchased retail.

- Rubber domes are fine.

Good ones are. I would even argue that good dome with slider boards are better than MX, to my tastes anyway.

I'm in the 'preference' camp, but think that lots of keyboard options (switches, cases, caps) these days just suck. I don't really see any conflict with thinking both at the same time.

You can still describe objective differences between the characteristics of a given switch, case, plate, modification, etc, that could be helpful for someone who hasn't been able to experience them themselves. Whether or not those characteristics are desirable are what comes down to preference. The problem stems from people who proclaim things like "beam spring is the one true clicky switch", "Topre is the best tactile switch", "PBT double shots or bust", etc.

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5511 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 13:00:26 »
- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

Backlit keys are good for some people. People who weren't raised on touch typing and aren't used to it, older people who need that backlight to see the keys they aren't used to using, etc. Backlighting is not only good for aesthetics, but accessibility for some people.

Online Maledicted

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5512 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 13:58:22 »
- Backlit keys are essential.

Why's that? No touch typing? I think backlighting is useful for a wireless HTPC keyboard that might be used at odd angles without any desk and/or need frequent use of potentially proprietary media control mappings. Otherwise, I often type in bed with a keyboard under the blanket.

Backlit keys are good for some people. People who weren't raised on touch typing and aren't used to it, older people who need that backlight to see the keys they aren't used to using, etc. Backlighting is not only good for aesthetics, but accessibility for some people.

I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5513 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 14:26:39 »
I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

I'm in much of the same boat myself, but there's also the issue that some people just aren't as savvy with technology to the level most people on this forum, or most of my social circles if I'm being honest, take for granted. I'm only 20, and I know for a fact there are people my age who hunt-and-peck their emails and would rather work on a car engine than a computer or keyboard. There are people who are stubborn because "it's the way they learned to do it," or simply because bad habits are hard to break. And not every works a job where touch typing is necessary, or have hobbies or frequent places where it's useful. Not to mention all of the older individuals who only use their computers to look at Facebook, emails, and maybe watch some TV. Different people have different needs and skillsets, and not everyone needs to be able to touch type, even if it is a very versatile and useful skill.

And it's not people limiting themselves or just focusing on other things, either. There are people who have hand and wrist disabilities that affect the mobility of their fingers, making hunt-and-peck the only viable way for them to type easily, without pain, and / or at all. And that's not even counting the other types of problems that makes hunt-and-peck better for some people even if it is the slower way to type. Yes, you don't need backlights if you know how to touch type, but not every has the skill or can even acquire it. That's not to say you have to suddenly use them if you don't need them or like them, but that's no reason to write them off entirely.

Offline Darthbaggins

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5514 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 14:59:46 »
my son is learning to read and write so a layout of a keyboard throws him off, but he prefers to look at the caps on my boards since they are non backlit and he can see the legends more clearly than the craptastic gamer fonts used on most shine-throughs (like on his $25 Otemu Blu board).  I forced myself to learn to touch type since shine through was never really an option, so using a hunt-peck format was next to impossible to use in dimly lit areas when i would be on my rigs the most.

 bkrownd:"Those damned rubber chiclet keys are the devil's nipples."   >:D

Offline Leopard223

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5515 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 20:44:50 »
The MK community is too apologetic this days with the 'preference' mentality, every review or video says something and quickly add 'YMMV' or "But it's preference".
Gaining info is getting harder when almost every input is "preference"..

Its either this or gatekeeping, pick your poision
i do think that the over-apologetics are a reaction to the gatekeepers, both exist and oppose each others, one try to make everyone feel good, the other try to make everyone feel bad and leave them alone. i kinda often fall into the 1st category i think, but i'd rather be there than a gate-keeping jerk. maybe our forum have more of the apology kind but from what i hear reddit seems to have more gatekeepers, so who knows who wins overall. and youtubers often have a monetary incentive in getting the community to grow, so they are rather unlikely to fall into the gatekeeper archetype.
although they are kinda right, i am a big fan of big heavy clicky boards (M122 being my current favorite) and 2 friend of mine both hate my M, one likes lite clickies and the other very lite tactile, all 3 opinions are valid.
I’m talking about the people commenting “preference” over every question.
It pretty much stops the flow and gathering of info in the MK community, especially in a hobby where it’s very expensive to try things, usually seen on Reddit..

Luckily I don’t see it here, that’s why I’m here  ;D

Offline jamster

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5516 on: Mon, 12 April 2021, 23:47:12 »
I learned touch typing in high school, which wasn't even a required course (and not a particularly popular elective). This was when the typewriter was dead but before computers were as ascendent as they are today. We had a computer present at home since I was a small child, although there wasn't much typing going on on it at that point since we didn't even have a modem. I don't recall whether or not it really had any sort of word processing software either. It was an old hand-me-down Macintosh Performa. I did use computers for typing relatively commonly though through all of middle school, and sometimes prior to it. There was a computer class that touched on it briefly at the start of middle school with Mavis Beacon, but not enough for any of it to have been meaningful. I remember finally being able to touch type being a breath of fresh air. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Backlighting is obviously of utility for people who can't yet touch type. But why limit yourself forever?

I'm in much of the same boat myself, but there's also the issue that some people just aren't as savvy with technology to the level most people on this forum, or most of my social circles if I'm being honest, take for granted. I'm only 20, and I know for a fact there are people my age who hunt-and-peck their emails and would rather work on a car engine than a computer or keyboard. There are people who are stubborn because "it's the way they learned to do it," or simply because bad habits are hard to break. And not every works a job where touch typing is necessary, or have hobbies or frequent places where it's useful. Not to mention all of the older individuals who only use their computers to look at Facebook, emails, and maybe watch some TV. Different people have different needs and skillsets, and not everyone needs to be able to touch type, even if it is a very versatile and useful skill.

And it's not people limiting themselves or just focusing on other things, either. There are people who have hand and wrist disabilities that affect the mobility of their fingers, making hunt-and-peck the only viable way for them to type easily, without pain, and / or at all. And that's not even counting the other types of problems that makes hunt-and-peck better for some people even if it is the slower way to type. Yes, you don't need backlights if you know how to touch type, but not every has the skill or can even acquire it. That's not to say you have to suddenly use them if you don't need them or like them, but that's no reason to write them off entirely.

My primary aged son is learning to touch type, I've thrown Mavis Beacon at him- yes, this program still exists! It's really quite good, much better than any of the free online typing tutorials. And it also works with Kinesis split boards, which is a bit odd. Even if he goes off on some career tangent that doesn't require typing, he should at least learn it during school so that it's not a barrier to his more complex learning.

It blows my mind that there are teenagers who cannot touch type, it's just such a fundamental skill, being able to translate thought to written word quickly and with minimal interruption to thinking.

Sure, there are folks who have physical hinderances, but this is a tiny minority that shouldn't sway the average. Typing today is more important than handwriting, throughout school it really should be a fundamental skill.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 April 2021, 23:50:24 by jamster »

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5517 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 09:31:36 »
My primary aged son is learning to touch type, I've thrown Mavis Beacon at him- yes, this program still exists! It's really quite good, much better than any of the free online typing tutorials. And it also works with Kinesis split boards, which is a bit odd. Even if he goes off on some career tangent that doesn't require typing, he should at least learn it during school so that it's not a barrier to his more complex learning.

It blows my mind that there are teenagers who cannot touch type, it's just such a fundamental skill, being able to translate thought to written word quickly and with minimal interruption to thinking.

Sure, there are folks who have physical hinderances, but this is a tiny minority that shouldn't sway the average. Typing today is more important than handwriting, throughout school it really should be a fundamental skill.

After a day to think on it, I should probably have made it much clearer: I'm not trying to disagree with the point that everyone who can should learn to touch type. I also agree that typing is more important than handwriting in many situations today. But I'm also trying to look at the reality of the situation, essentially that, no matter how much you try, there's still going to be a statistically significant number of people who can't or won't learn that skill. Elderly people who are used to hunt-and-peck (which is a lot of what you see here in the southern US), people with physical or mental disabilities that make that particular skill much harder or impossible to learn, etc. I'm not trying to say we shouldn't encourage the learning of touch typing, just that the fact of the matter is there are a lot of people who just won't, and for those people, backlights on keyboards are a good utility. I'm also trying to keep in consideration the bias inherent in the fact that this is, at the end of the day, a forum for keyboard enthusiasts. We're always looking for ways to improve our typing experience, whether that's with a higher WPM or a more comfortable keyboard. There's actually a lot of people who aren't in tech communities, whether it's the keyboard community or otherwise, who just don't touch type. I don't think that's a good thing, but it's just a fact that even with the increasing relevance of typing in our world, there are a ton of jobs that just don't require that skill. Farming, car repair and maintenance, infrastructure work, construction, electricians, plumbers, etc.

In short, yes, I agree that touch typing is a good, valuable skill, but even with that we have to put aside the bias of being in tech communities, and remember that there are still a ton of people for whom touch typing is not necessary.

Offline zslane

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5518 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 12:23:05 »
When I was a kid, touch typing was taught as a required junior high class in my middle school. There was no assumption that every single student who took the class would need it later in life. It was, however, assumed that chances were good enough to teach it anyway. But since we have an entire generation that only types with its thumbs, and can do so faster than I can touch type (~80wpm), I'm not sure if touch typing will ever be seen as a valuable skill by educators of the future.

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5519 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:29:04 »
If you can't 125wpm,  that means you haven't used the internet enough.  Internet more and it'll come naturally.


Offline keguira

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5520 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:51:05 »
If you can't 125wpm,  that means you haven't used the internet enough.  Internet more and it'll come naturally.
i'm 38 yo, i'm a backend developer, I'm on internet at least every minutes of a day, i write documents and email all day long ... 55 WPM.
I won't blame ISO-FR keyboard, i'm just lazy and i think you are wrong. All layouts are not good and not all languages are made for keyboard (or layout are not made really well).

And, an other unpopular opinion, i don't give a f*** about my WPM because it's not related to efficiency in work or social things.

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5521 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 13:53:20 »
And, an other unpopular opinion, i don't give a f*** about my WPM because it's not related to efficiency in work or social things.


Incorrect, I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you, I can waste my time more efficiently than you can.

This carries through in all other input related activity.


Offline keguira

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5522 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 16:07:40 »

Incorrect, I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you, I can waste my time more efficiently than you can.

This carries through in all other input related activity.


 ;D

well yes, but i'm comparing it with all other things we do in life.
In the end, it's seems that for most use-cases, it's like driving your car at 55 miles per hour instead of 10 miles per hour for a 1 mile trip : it's not that much important (well... less dangerous than that). I hardly write something that is more than 200 words at a time. So, ok, it can take me 4 minutes and you less than 2 but .... who cares ?
That's not part of my job or my daily life to type that fast. And that's my point : not all people cares about that. It's great, it's practical, but it's not a "must have" in life. Just like all skills.
« Last Edit: Wed, 14 April 2021, 03:46:30 by keguira »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5523 on: Tue, 13 April 2021, 17:03:26 »

I type out this pointless response 2.5x faster than you,


And using 40% of the brain cycles as well.
What this shows is that the Republican Party knows, deep down somewhere, that even before Trump they had less than a policy agenda. All they’ve had for the past decade or so is strategy and tactics to suppress the vote, either through extreme gerrymandering or State-level laws. More often than not, as we’re seeing, through both. Without a stated party platform they are left with nothing but the insanity of The Power Grab and The Big Lie. The Party as a whole has, for some twisted logical reason, decided that America no longer needs Democracy. That in the bent and tortured reality Republicans have created for themselves America was never a Democracy, the Founders never intended for the country’s politics or social order to change, that the country’s democratic features would always only extend to wealthy White Christian property owners. They’ve also, collectively, decided that threatening major, multi-billion dollar corporations that employ tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people worldwide will somehow, for some reason, cower in the corner when State politicians decide to take a few million in subsidies off the table. When faced with hundreds of millions, or even billions, in lost business because The People are voting with their wallet, I know where I’d position my company, and it’s not at the dinner table with Mitch McConnell and his wife.
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