Author Topic: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)  (Read 5696 times)

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Offline Lunatique

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Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 03:21:31 »
Have you ever been a victim of niche community's hyperbolic claims? You're told that something is "night and day" different or better than something else--that it's a "totally different animal," so you spend the money on the expensive thing only to receive it and then after typing on it briefly, start yelling "mother@#cker!"  :mad:

As an example, I'm part of the pro audio and audiophile/head-fi community, and there are a lot of people in those communities who like to claim that one DAC (Digital to Analog Converter) sounds "night and day different" to another DAC. If that were really true, then something is really, really wrong with one of the DAC, because the whole purpose of a DAC is to convert digital data to analog signal that we can hear, and it's supposed to be as transparent as possible. If two DAC's sound "night and day" different from each other, then that means one of them would have to sound like complete trash, and no DAC on the market can possibly sound like complete trash since it wouldn't even have made it out of the proof-of-concept phase, let alone be allowed into production.

So essentially, such hyperbole is just ludicrous exaggerations of a niche community's tendency to lose objectivity and focus far too much on minutia that in reality, is just a bunch of hair-splitting. When only a dog can reliably hear those differences and a human being would have to do one double-blind A/B testing after another to even assess the differences, it is NOT "night and day." To claim that any detectable difference is "night and day" is just a gross misrepresentation and all it does is take away the descriptive power of "night and day" (or "a complete different animal," or "nothing alike at all").

The keyboard community is not immune to this. No niche community is, because it is in the nature of niche communities to put everything under the microscope and blow them way out of proportion. WAAAAYYYY out of proportion. Like, off the f-cking charts.  :eek:

Case in point: People claiming that 55g Topre is a "totally different experience" from 45g, and the two are "nothing alike at all," are committing the same sin of using ludicrous hyperbole that ends up misleading others into murder, bank robbery, armed security truck heists, selling drugs, and prostitution--just so they can make enough money and buy expensive keyboards like the 55g RealForce 87U. (See what I did there? Hyperbole, mother@$cker.)  :-*

Well, after doing all that, I was finally able to afford a 55g RealForce 87U, and it arrived yesterday morning.

After exercising all the restraint I had honed over half a lifetime (the first half was spent being as clueless as any young idiot), I was able to not just tear the packaging into shreds while foaming at the mouth. I unwrapped the keyboard, gave it some gentle caresses while cooing to it with some baby-talk. Then I pushed its hard plug deep into my computer's tight USB port. And then I let my fingers fly.

GODDAMMIT!

No!!!

It is NOT "night and day" different from the 45g Leopold FC660C I have, nor is it "nothing like" the ergonomically weighted version of 87U.

I had just become a victim of "myopic niche community's ludicrous hyperbole syndrome."  :'(

Yes, there are of course differences, but the differences are NOT profound. The increase in tactility/resistance force is not something you'll even notice that much if you're just typing normally and thinking about what you're writing, as opposed to purposely focusing on the feel of the keys instead of actually giving a $hit about what you're writing. The differences are not nearly as dramatic as say, going from a cheap $20 rubber dome keyboard to a buckling spring, or going from red Cherry MX to a blue or green. Yet the way people go on and on about the 55g Topre makes it sound like it's not even in the same species of animal as 45g, and that is simply not true.

Anyone else who's not in the niche community of mechanical keyboards would jump between the three Topre keyboards and probably not even notice much of a difference, except that the ergonomically weighted version feels softer and is a bit quieter. Very few people would even notice the difference between the 45g and the 55g. If the unsuspecting person is told that the 45g and 55g are supposed to feel "nothing alike" or "night and day different" or the 55g is a "totally different beast," and that person happens to be someone who is very impatient with ludicrous hyperbole, he'll likely slap whoever's telling him the BS silly. "Night and day different my ass,"  is what he would say. And then he would punch the person saying that crap repeatedly in the face, until that face is no more.  :blank:

This is just like the way people use the word "awesome" for everything, to the point that the word completely loses its actual meaning. If someone asks you how you've been and you say "awesome," then holy $hit, you better elaborate because being "awesome" is not something we come across often in our lives. Tell us how exactly have you been "awesome." Did you win the lottery? Have you met the love of your life? Were you offered a tour of the cosmos by highly intelligent extraterrestrials? If so, did they divulge the date they'll be wiping the human race off the face of planet earth, because we're such giant A-holes to other animals and Mother Nature?

Anyway.

To those of you who have used ludicrous hyperbole in the past when describing keyboards (or anything else), please stop. It misleads people into spending a lot of money on stuff that makes very little objective differences in the grand scheme of things. Learn to use more scientifically objective descriptions instead. For example, X feels 20% more tactile than Y, or X is 30% louder than Y in the higher frequencies only, or X is slightly more orange in hue than Y--by about 10%. Don't use adjectives and descriptions that have no real meaning and cannot be quantified with the concept of measurement.

If we all agree to stop using ludicrous hyperbole, we just might stand a chance as a species. I know because the aliens told me. They can't stand that $hit either and they said if we stop doing it, they'll reconsider the plan to wipe Homo sapiens off the face of earth.  :))
« Last Edit: Wed, 31 December 2014, 05:26:06 by Lunatique »

Offline byker

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 03:32:49 »
I think you have to take a step back when listening to people describe the differences between various products in these niche hobbies. You know when you put that expensive pair of headphones on for the first time, and they didn't sound that special? But then  a week later you went back to your cheap pair and they sounded completely different. Sure you could say you have 2 headphones, they sound similar, just as 2 keyboards are just 2 keyboards. The differences are of course rather small, but that doesn't mean that they aren't important. Topre 55g isn't completely different, but it sure is rather different, different enough to notice, to comment on, and to prefer for many people. Just my 2 cents..

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 03:42:06 »
Yes, there are of course differences, but the differences are NOT profound. The increase in tactility/resistance force is not something you'll even notice that much if you're just typing normally and thinking about what you're writing, as opposed to purposely focusing on the feel of the keys instead of actually giving a $hit about what you're writing. [...] Yet the way people go on and on about the 55g Topre makes it sound like it's not even in the same species of animal as 45g, and that is simply not true.
I’m personally not a big fan of any weight of Topre switches, but I think there’s a pretty noticeable difference between 45g and 55g, especially if you try typing on them for more than a few minutes. (Also, FWIW, I find the variably weighted keyboards hugely distracting to the point that I wouldn’t ever consider using one.) Do you have an example of someone going on and on making it sound like an entirely different species? You should name names here. :-)

Quote
The differences are not nearly as dramatic as say, going from a cheap $20 rubber dome keyboard to a buckling spring, or going from red Cherry MX to a blue or green.
Well no ****. It’s hard to find switches that are more distinct than cheap rubber domes and buckling springs.

Imagine we were comparing merlot to pinot noir, and then you come in and say “it’s not nearly as dramatic as going from bud light to whisky”.

I’d say the difference between 45g and 55g Topre is more of like the difference between blue and amber Alps, the difference between MX blue and green, or the difference between Model F and Model M switches.
« Last Edit: Wed, 31 December 2014, 03:49:38 by jacobolus »

Offline tbc

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 03:50:38 »
i know what you mean...

but 55g and 45g topre is actually one of the examples of ACTUAL difference.

there is 0 chance of me getting confused between a 55g and a 45g
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Offline Novus

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 04:30:54 »
Tell me is the kul overhyped?

Is there a difference between a costar cooler master and filco?

Is Leopold the bestest?

Is there a difference between a Benz and mercedes?

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 04:37:41 »
I totally get what you're saying -Luna-..


I fell for the exact same Topre Hype when I got my 87u.. To me it felt identical to all the other rubber dome keyboards I've ever had, with the exception of slightly better strike angles/consistency..

I was VERY angry at the time @ the GH Topre-Wuv people, because they're seriously just perpetuating mis-information..  And I felt down right cheated, because they're doing it self-serving-ly to perhaps justify their own Mal-disposition of having wasted hard-earned dollars.

Seriously. Fvk Topre...  Rubber dome is rubber dome.. nothing better or worse about it.. but GOD DAMN IT.. call it what it is....


I have a feeling it's just a bunch of dumbass weeaboos who can't mentally accept that they've made a mistake..

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 31 December 2014, 12:13:48 »
You're new here, obviously.  The deeper you get into any subject or hobby, the more this will occur.
« Last Edit: Wed, 31 December 2014, 12:16:31 by prdlm2009 »
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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 02:46:00 »
Yes, I fully understand the mentality of niche communities, and I've always advocated against using hyperbole or ineffectively descriptions that don't help measure specific qualities. For example, in the audio community, I've always advocated for using proper descriptions using frequency ranges instead of simply saying something sounds muffled, or harsh, or bloated. It's much more succinct and helpful to say that a pair of headphones sounds bloated due to the roughly 10 dB boost in the 60 Hz region in a gentle curve that flattens at about 30Hz in both directions.

I wish the keyboard community can adopt similar approach, such as describing how much more tactile a switch is by using percentages, or a rating system of 1 to 10, instead of simply using ineffective and unhelpful (and frankly, misleading) descriptions like "night and day different."

My objective assessment of the 55g vs 45 is that the 55g is roughly 15~20% more tactile. That is not "night and day" different--not even close. To be "night and day different," it would have to be at least 50% more tactile or in that range (IMO). 15~20% difference only warrants a "slightly more tactile" description, IMO.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 02:57:22 »
My objective assessment of the 55g vs 45 is that the 55g is roughly 15~20% more tactile.
How is that an “objective” assessment? What is the scale here? Do you have a technical definition of “tactile” with a numerical metric attached?

Seems to me like a totally made up percentage.

Anyway, I do hope to measure a whole bunch of switches on HaaTa’s force–distance gauge this year (or possibly help build a new gauge that’s a bit easier to work with and more flexible), and then it will be possible to compare the tactile response of switches in terms of a two-dimensional graphs. (There are some existing plots on various Japanese websites, but I don’t think they’re particularly reliable.)

I don’t think it’s possible to boil how “tactile” something is down to a single metric: in my opinion, “15% more tactile” is not a statement which can be made meaningful, because “tactile” doesn’t have any precise common definition. There are some things which can be measured, such as the pre-actuation travel distance, how big a force drop there is after the peak force, total pre-actuation work done by the finger, etc. For any kind of useful summary though, I think the full graph is necessary.

Quote
Yes, I fully understand the mentality of niche communities, and I've always advocated against using hyperbole or ineffectively descriptions that don't help measure specific qualities.
This is not useful as just an abstract statement. If you invent some measurements for switch qualities then we’ll have something to talk about. So go for it!

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 03:03:33 »
The thing with keyboard switches is...  It doesn't really MATTER..  it just doesn't.. 

The difference between switches TODAY is completely an exercise in vanity.. Similar to picking what cereal to eat in the morning, or what color socks to wear..

It has no real impact on performance.. Even if it alters your key timings upfront, there's nothing that some practice will not correct.. (difference in timing between blue vs red for example)

Daily computer tasks including -games- DO NOT depend on key input accuracy or rate.. they are simply NOT built around it.


That is to say the differences between switches serve NO PURPOSE beyond satisfying people's stochastic urge for novelty..



I've gone all over and tried just about everything... and if I step back and really look at what mattered in the end..

Split Layout, Full programmability, and tenting..   Those are the only factors that truly made-a-difference...

Offline Lunatique

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 03:41:54 »
My objective assessment of the 55g vs 45 is that the 55g is roughly 15~20% more tactile.
How is that an �objective� assessment? What is the scale here? Do you have a technical definition of �tactile� with a numerical metric attached?

Seems to me like a totally made up percentage.

Anyway, I do hope to measure a whole bunch of switches on HaaTa�s force�distance gauge this year (or possibly help build a new gauge that�s a bit easier to work with and more flexible), and then it will be possible to compare the tactile response of switches in terms of a two-dimensional graphs. (There are some existing plots on various Japanese websites, but I don�t think they�re particularly reliable.)

I don�t think it�s possible to boil how �tactile� something is down to a single metric: in my opinion, �15% more tactile� is not a statement which can be made meaningful, because �tactile� doesn�t have any precise common definition. There are some things which can be measured, such as the pre-actuation travel distance, how big a force drop there is after the peak force, total pre-actuation work done by the finger, etc. For any kind of useful summary though, I think the full graph is necessary.

Quote
Yes, I fully understand the mentality of niche communities, and I've always advocated against using hyperbole or ineffectively descriptions that don't help measure specific qualities.
This is not useful as just an abstract statement. If you invent some measurements for switch qualities then we�ll have something to talk about. So go for it!


Maybe "objective" wasn't the right word. But I think at least using some kind of number system is far more helpful than the very unhelpful "night and day difference" or "a totally different experience" that some people like the throw around when describing something.

Having a unified system of charts and graphs would be great. I don't know if I'm willing to go that much deeper into this rabbit hole and spend the time doing something like that though. That project will have to be left for someone who's much more invested in the keyboard hobby and have long-term involvement with it. My quest for better keyboards is rooted in wanting a better typing experience when I'm working on my novels (or just any writing in general, including blog and forum posts). I'm pretty happy with the keyboards I've ended up with, so I think my brief time focused on keyboards is coming to an end. I'll keep my eyes out for future keyboard releases now and then, just to see if anything really interesting is coming down the pike.

The thing with keyboard switches is...  It doesn't really MATTER..  it just doesn't.. 

The difference between switches TODAY is completely an exercise in vanity.. Similar to picking what cereal to eat in the morning, or what color socks to wear..

It has no real impact on performance.. Even if it alters your key timings upfront, there's nothing that some practice will not correct.. (difference in timing between blue vs red for example)

Daily computer tasks including -games- DO NOT depend on key input accuracy or rate.. they are simply NOT built around it.


That is to say the differences between switches serve NO PURPOSE beyond satisfying people's stochastic urge for novelty..



I've gone all over and tried just about everything... and if I step back and really look at what mattered in the end..

Split Layout, Full programmability, and tenting..   Those are the only factors that truly made-a-difference...

Typing with switches that are really tactile does make a difference--at least to me. The physical feedback creates a psychological effect that significantly influences the typing experience. Even if there's no measurable improvement in the person's WPM or accuracy, the change in how the person feels while typing is just as important.

The way a tool handles matters,  just like how a musical instrument handles matters, or the way a paint brush handles matters.  Musicians and artists and writers and technicians might not necessarily do better work when using tools/instruments they prefer the handling/feel of, but it still makes a big difference to their overall experience, and generally, we all want the more satisfying experience.
« Last Edit: Fri, 02 January 2015, 12:03:12 by Lunatique »

Offline epzy

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 04:33:52 »
My objective assessment of the 55g vs 45 is that the 55g is roughly 15~20% more tactile.

It's the other way around for me. My 45g Type-S definitely feels more tactile and snappy as opposed to both my 55g HHKB and RF.
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Offline remdell

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 06:04:32 »
I'm not sure who is personally telling you that there is a night and day difference between 45g and 55g Topre, but I can understand how you may feel cheated.  A lot of claims made here follow the "to each his own' mentality.  For some, all Topre weighting feels similar, like your average rubberdomes. For others, each Topre weighting is a night and day difference.  You have to be able to stay here long enough to make the justification that you're most likely going run into drastic differences with your keyboard experiences in comparison to other users.

If you want scientific descriptions of keyboards, then take the time to look for it.  I'm surprised that as an experienced member of an audiophile community, you've fallen victim to wasting your money based off the "night and day" claims made in the community here.  If you knew that niche communities have this sort of "ludicrous hyperbole", why go into them if you're too impatient and easily bothered by it?  We aren't obligated to give out specific descriptions of our keyboard experiences, especially when you haven't asked us before making this thread.  Also, as someone who has used many keyboards, it's very difficult to quantify tactility and loudness without using tools.  I find that personally quantifying tactility and loudness greatly depends on the keyboard (daily driver) used before.  This is because once we get use to certain keyboards, using other keyboards may feel drastically lighter or heavier in tactility and loudness than what others have claimed.  I've used the FC660C (printed) and many 45g Realforce keyboards for months, and just based off that, the 55g 87U's keys just feels significantly snappier and less wobblier to me.  I literally feel a bit of fatigue after typing on 55g after awhile too.  I don't care if your accessed 15-20% tactile difference isn't significant enough for you because that's all it takes for me to feel a clear difference.  For some, 15-20% is the difference between too heavy or too light of a switch, and that can mean night and day.

45g Topre varies greatly in dome weight depending on the keyboard.  For example, the FC660C is known to have greater weighting with newer models. Intelli78 has done some testing that may be up to par with your desired "scientifically objective description": https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57706.msg1312738#msg1312738

When looking at the contrary, who is to say that you aren't committing some ludicrous hyperbole for saying that 45g and 55g Topre aren't totally different?  They are, after all, scientifically in completely different shape and dome weight.  An 87U 55g is noticeably snappier and weightier than a variable/45g uniform 87U.  You need to get your fingers checked.  Though I'm joking playing devil's advocate, you should still be considerate of other users' experiences.  Knowing that 45g and 55g Topre are... both Topre, you should have gone in thinking that there will be significant similarities.  What can you really expect with the only physical difference being a change in dome shape?  There's risk in buying similar items.  You've made the gamble but haven't exactly admitted to the loss.
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Offline katushkin

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 06:12:10 »
Anything to do with topre and weights beyond stock, I just glaze over tbh...

I have tried topre for all of 5 seconds when I met Pexon last year and did a quick flurry on his HHKB, so in no way am I an expert on this. But I'm pretty sure you could look at the number 55 and the number 45 and say: "There isn't a lot of difference there."

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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 13:41:09 »
I'm not sure who is personally telling you that there is a night and day difference between 45g and 55g Topre, but I can understand how you may feel cheated.  A lot of claims made here follow the "to each his own' mentality.  For some, all Topre weighting feels similar, like your average rubberdomes. For others, each Topre weighting is a night and day difference.  You have to be able to stay here long enough to make the justification that you're most likely going run into drastic differences with your keyboard experiences in comparison to other users.

If you want scientific descriptions of keyboards, then take the time to look for it.  I'm surprised that as an experienced member of an audiophile community, you've fallen victim to wasting your money based off the "night and day" claims made in the community here.  If you knew that niche communities have this sort of "ludicrous hyperbole", why go into them if you're too impatient and easily bothered by it?  We aren't obligated to give out specific descriptions of our keyboard experiences, especially when you haven't asked us before making this thread.  Also, as someone who has used many keyboards, it's very difficult to quantify tactility and loudness without using tools.  I find that personally quantifying tactility and loudness greatly depends on the keyboard (daily driver) used before.  This is because once we get use to certain keyboards, using other keyboards may feel drastically lighter or heavier in tactility and loudness than what others have claimed.  I've used the FC660C (printed) and many 45g Realforce keyboards for months, and just based off that, the 55g 87U's keys just feels significantly snappier and less wobblier to me.  I literally feel a bit of fatigue after typing on 55g after awhile too.  I don't care if your accessed 15-20% tactile difference isn't significant enough for you because that's all it takes for me to feel a clear difference.  For some, 15-20% is the difference between too heavy or too light of a switch, and that can mean night and day.

45g Topre varies greatly in dome weight depending on the keyboard.  For example, the FC660C is known to have greater weighting with newer models. Intelli78 has done some testing that may be up to par with your desired "scientifically objective description": https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57706.msg1312738#msg1312738

When looking at the contrary, who is to say that you aren't committing some ludicrous hyperbole for saying that 45g and 55g Topre aren't totally different?  They are, after all, scientifically in completely different shape and dome weight.  An 87U 55g is noticeably snappier and weightier than a variable/45g uniform 87U.  You need to get your fingers checked.  Though I'm joking playing devil's advocate, you should still be considerate of other users' experiences.  Knowing that 45g and 55g Topre are... both Topre, you should have gone in thinking that there will be significant similarities.  What can you really expect with the only physical difference being a change in dome shape?  There's risk in buying similar items.  You've made the gamble but haven't exactly admitted to the loss.

It wasn't one specific person--it's the entire 55g choir. :D

Yes, I made a gamble, and I'm living with the loss. Worst case scenario is that I sell what I don't want to keep in the classifieds and lose a little money, and that's not the end of the world and doesn't bother me too much. I wouldn't have purchased six keyboards in one breath (after doing a couple week's worth of research) if the possibility of being disappointed would really bother me (I was fully prepared to return/sell off some of them). In a way, my attempt at humor is a form of ludicrous hyperbole itself, but it's presented as so, and I hope it's obvious I was trying to be lighthearted.

The FC660C does feel more tactile than the 45g keys on my Type-S 87U, and that is very likely the main reason why the 55g 87U doesn't feel as significantly more tactile than it probably would be, if the FC660C was actually weighted at exactly 45g.

Anyway, I had hoped my OP would elicit a few chuckles and maybe serve as a FYI for those who are considering a 55g vs 45g Topre purchase--that's all. If my attempt at humor ruffled some feathers, then I guess it's as they say, "If you haven't offended some portion of your audience, then you're doing it wrong." (Paraphrased. Can't remember the actual quote.)  ;D

Offline paicrai

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 13:47:14 »
i don't even like whopper with cheese, i'm just doing it for the hyperbole
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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 13:53:32 »
i don't even like whopper with cheese, i'm just doing it for the superbowl
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 13:56:28 »
i don't even like whopper with cheese, i'm just doing it for the superbowl
ftfy

I like whopper with cheese..

Just fast food in general...

What's not to like..  It's got MSG,  it's fried, it's oily, it's got what might be protein, close enough..

= GOOD 

Offline dante

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 14:09:25 »
Quote from: EliteKeyboards Surgeon General Warning
55gram weighted switches are very stiff and snappy. We do not recommend this keyboard to people with arthritis, RSI, or any state of health or physical inability that would prevent them from using, or building the strength to use, these heavy switches!

I agree if you have severe arthritis and RSI you shouldn't be typing on it - and probably shouldn't be typing on the 45g either.

The whole "55g is SOOOO stiff" is blown out of proportion.  I know we aren't all built the same but come on ... it isn't THAT stiff.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 14:11:48 »
Quote from: EliteKeyboards Surgeon General Warning
55gram weighted switches are very stiff and snappy. We do not recommend this keyboard to people with arthritis, RSI, or any state of health or physical inability that would prevent them from using, or building the strength to use, these heavy switches!

I agree if you have severe arthritis and RSI you shouldn't be typing on it - and probably shouldn't be typing on the 45g either.

The whole "55g is SOOOO stiff" is blown out of proportion.  I know we aren't all built the same but come on ... it isn't THAT stiff.



the SEvere RSI,  if "caused" by keyboarding, is most likely due to technique rather than the weight of the key switches..

I saw this often when I taught piano..

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 14:12:20 »
Tell me is the kul overhyped?

Is there a difference between a costar cooler master and filco?

Is Leopold the bestest?

Is there a difference between a Benz and mercedes?

no yes no no
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 14:15:57 »
Tell me is the kul overhyped?

Is there a difference between a costar cooler master and filco?

Is Leopold the bestest?

Is there a difference between a Benz and mercedes?

no yes no no

Kul is extremely overhyped

No, they're the same god damn thing, filco has a higher quality PCB that ultimately makes no difference if you don't plan to solder to it..


Leopold can go suck a d...


Bends is something you get when you surface too quickly after diving.

Mercedes is a stripper

Offline Puddsy

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 14:21:15 »

Bends is something you get when you surface too quickly after diving.

Mercedes is a stripper

made my day with this one

i'm just trollin up there, i'm chief overhyper of kul boards

i do like mine a lot though
QFR | MJ2 TKL | "Bulgogiboard" (Keycon 104) | ctrl.alt x GON 60% | TGR Alice | Mira SE #29 | Mira SE #34 | Revo One | z | Keycult No. 1 | First CW87 prototype | Mech27v1 | Camp C225 | Duck Orion V1 | LZ CLS sxh | Geon Frog TKL | Hiney TKL One | Geon Glare TKL



"Everything is worse, but in a barely perceptible and indefinable way" -dollartacos, after I came back from a break | "Is Linkshine our Nixon?" -NAV | "Puddsy is the Puddsy of keebs" -ns90

Offline paicrai

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 15:05:33 »
i'll keep doing that ****ing whopper joke until someone gets it
THE FEMINIST ILLUMINATI

I will literally **** you raw paicrai, I hope you're legal by the time I meet you.
👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good **** go౦ԁ ****👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌**** right👌👌th 👌 ere👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯  i say so 💯  thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good ****

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 02 January 2015, 15:21:48 »
i'll keep doing that ****ing whopper joke until someone gets it

Your Elevated-humor is too high-brow for us Paipai.. we are not worthy..

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 03 January 2015, 09:15:03 »
Yes, I fully understand the mentality of niche communities, and I've always advocated against using hyperbole or ineffectively descriptions that don't help measure specific qualities. For example, in the audio community, I've always advocated for using proper descriptions using frequency ranges instead of simply saying something sounds muffled, or harsh, or bloated. It's much more succinct and helpful to say that a pair of headphones sounds bloated due to the roughly 10 dB boost in the 60 Hz region in a gentle curve that flattens at about 30Hz in both directions.

I wish the keyboard community can adopt similar approach, such as describing how much more tactile a switch is by using percentages, or a rating system of 1 to 10, instead of simply using ineffective and unhelpful (and frankly, misleading) descriptions like "night and day different."

My objective assessment of the 55g vs 45 is that the 55g is roughly 15~20% more tactile. That is not "night and day" different--not even close. To be "night and day different," it would have to be at least 50% more tactile or in that range (IMO). 15~20% difference only warrants a "slightly more tactile" description, IMO.

It's hard to measure the force of some of these things.  The structure and build of the keyboard affects the feeling.  Plus, people have different preferences for different levels of tactility.  Some like it soft, some like it hard, others like the ancient click of IBM boards.

To me, the keyboard community, it all seems like a reflection of life as a whole:  just one giant gray area with an infinite amount of opinions, information overload, and always new stuff in the pipe because we humans can't just sit around and do nothing.  I stick around because it greatly appeals to my own little neurological quirks, and I like interacting with the rest of the nerdzoids. 
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Offline taylordcraig

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #26 on: Sat, 03 January 2015, 12:22:47 »
Tell me is the kul overhyped?

Is there a difference between a costar cooler master and filco?

Is Leopold the bestest?

Is there a difference between a Benz and mercedes?

Yes.

Yes.

No.

Yes.

Offline intelli78

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #27 on: Sat, 03 January 2015, 12:38:56 »
I understand what OP is saying, but the more you use keyboards, the more attuned you become to seemingly small differences. I can understand how experienced users may perceive a large difference between 45g and 55g while new users may not. I think both perspectives are valid, just depends who you are and what you've experienced w/r/t Topre.
Please consider carefully before you decide to comment, for Jesus.

Offline RoflCopter4

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 04 January 2015, 01:43:22 »
OP, I generally agree with you, but you don't need to go and commit the same sin of hyperbole yourself. Words do not "loose their meaning"; their meaning simply changes over time. Language is always changing and it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing that happens. Stop whining about it.

Again, I otherwise agree with you.
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Offline Lunatique

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 04 January 2015, 01:54:24 »
OP, I generally agree with you, but you don't need to go and commit the same sin of hyperbole yourself. Words do not "loose their meaning"; their meaning simply changes over time. Language is always changing and it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a thing that happens. Stop whining about it.

Again, I otherwise agree with you.

Awesome.

 :-*

Offline Pliny

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Re: Problem with ludicrous hyperbole (55g vs 45g Topre humorous rant)
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 04 January 2015, 02:33:54 »
Lunatique: at least 3/4 of the replies ignored your use of the word 'humorous.' Can we therefore postulate that niche communities ludicrously 'loose' their sense of humor over time?  :D :D

There certainly is a chorus of 55g here; I don't know about 'night and day' claims but I've seen "god mode Topre - all other weights are no good" a lot. So, I hear ya!

But... I actually do like the 55g... and I can certainly tell it from the 45g of a Realforce 104UB-DK (my new favorite board, cause it's full-sized - would love to try a 103/55g).

Like jacobolus, I don't think I'd like the variable-weighting RF: I usually hate stuff that tries to auto-adjust to me, plus I'm no touch-typist, just a long-time "chaotic" typist (thanks to CPT BA, I think, for the phrase).
 









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