Serious but potential ****storm question.

[nubbinator]

I don't intend to start a flame war with this question and I'm really seeking a serious answer.  This is something I've noticed after being around for a while, but have never understood.  Here's the basic premise of the argument I see pop up fairly often:

• Topre - Topre is a glorified rubber dome and if you love it, it's some sort of post-purchase rationalization or Stockholm syndrome.
• Buckling Spring - specifically the Model M.  Model Me are awesome keyboards, some of the best out there.  Everyone should own and love one, especially an SSK.

What confuses me us not why someone would love one, the other, or both, but why it seems like there is so much hatred and weird misunderstanding directed at Topre, but Model Ms get a pass. 

Here's some examples of why I'm confused:

• Topre gets called a glorified rubber dome and people state they're not mechanical, yet Model Ms are essentially a spring over membrane board yet get a pass on criticism or comments like that.
• The SSK, one of the most desirable Model M keyboards, routinely will go for overt $200, even used and in mediocre condition and people rarely comment on it being overpriced.  The HHKB, one of the more desirable Topre boards, goes for between $190 and $250, depending on new or used and if you buy from EK or Japan via proxy, and is routinely called overpriced.

Again, this is not criticizing one or the other, just me trying to understand the bizarre dissonance between how the two are treated.

[KHAANNN]

I don't think many people use or understand IBM's, I've never used them, I'm not well versed in their working principles, I only listened to the typing vids, they were pretty mechanical sounding, so I wouldn't easily bash them, for these reasons

Same thing applies for the Topre, yet the principles are more public / easy to understand, also Topre is less respected while the IBM codenames are definitely extremely cool/respectable

It would certainly be very fun to call Topre's glorified rubber domes, so I understand the end result

Long story short, people talk, mostly for fun, it's illogical to try and deduct a logical conclusion from the end chatter

-----

As a recent enthusiast, my impression is:
- There are a lot of trolls, so cancelling out the noise is necessary
- Topre users seem very satisfied with their keyboards, I don't remember seeing a dissatisfied user, and if people endure the horrendous HHKB layout for Topre's, they should be very very good, but as I have thousands invested in Cherry MX's, I will stick with my choices
- IBM's seem like niche keyboards, they seem to be very different and fun, they are like mechanical watches, in the digital era, mechanical watches increase in value significantly, I think the situation is similar

[munch]

I do think Topre feels a lot more like a Rubberdome than Model M does, but not really a fan of either

so, I would guess it has to do with feel rather than what the actual switch design is.

and SSK rarity is definitely the only reason they cost as much as they do. I don't actually know how rare they are, but model M full-size has to be a lot more common right?
HHKB pro2 is made in japan and all that, very good build quality/quality control, costs accordingly. but it is mostly plastic right? I never opened mine up before selling it, but it felt very plastic (not in a bad way).

[plegnic]

HHKB/Topre: As much as people say these boards are for rich people, they really aren't all that expensive. I mean even the Novatouch is only like $170 off of Amazon. With the way people talk about them, you'd think they're like $600.

The "glorified rubber dome" thing I don't get at all. Technically it is a rubber dome, but obviously more durable and a better experience so why complain about it? There are even some cheap rubber domes out there that aren't all that horrible to type on.

...if people endure the horrendous HHKB layout for Topre's, they should be very very good...

I always hear people praising the HHKB layout.

[TopreFan333]

I personally could not care less what the underlying mechanism is of a key switch. I just want a keyboard that feels good to type on and has some durability. If there's a mechanical switch involved, or some kind of spring, or (gasp!) a rubber dome involved -- seriously who gives a crap if it works well?

And as far as the price thing, it makes me laugh that people will deride the HHKB for being "too expensive" and then spend a fortune on keycaps and customized boards.

[smknjoe]

What confuses me is why Topre are considered mechanical but other rubber domes aren't. Of course, all rubber domes are mechanical.

Nubbs, I think it boils down to popular belief that spreads almost like marketing does in gamer circles. Perception and not much else.

[Findecanor]

Model Ms are essentially a spring over membrane board yet get a pass on criticism or comments like that.

Because there is a mechanism that isn't just up-down, it has a metal spring which gives it a "mechanical feel" and it is one of the switches with the most tactile feel.

If it didn't have the buckling-spring mechanism, then people around here would probably call it "semi-mechanical" or "hybrid switch".

[Joey Quinn]

I personally could not care less what the underlying mechanism is of a key switch. I just want a keyboard that feels good to type on and has some durability.

QFT

I don't care if it's a rubber dome as long as it feels great to type on and is durable. I'm not a huge Model M fan but I really like Model Fs.

[nubbinator]

Thanks for keeping it nice and calm people.  I was hoping that it wouldn't devolve and it hasn't.  It's nice to hear some serious answers to the question since it really is something that I've noticed for a while.

Model Ms are essentially a spring over membrane board yet get a pass on criticism or comments like that.

Because there is a mechanism that isn't just up-down, it has a metal spring which gives it a "mechanical feel" and it is one of the switches with the most tactile feel.

If it didn't have the buckling-spring mechanism, then people around here would probably call it "semi-mechanical" or "hybrid switch".

Technically the Model M is a hybrid switch though.  There are other similar switches, but without the buckling component and the foot, that we call hybrid, semi-mechanical, or even membrane .  I think it could be due to a lot of people not really understanding the mechanism, as someone else stated, that makes it so that it does tend to be viewed as purely mechanical.

[smknjoe]

All computer keyboards are "hybrids" though. They are all electro-mechanical with the exception of laser and some touch screen keyboards. The only purely mechanical keyboard I can think of would be on an old typewriter.

[inanis]

I think that the Model M being vintage plays into in a bit (particularly the SSK). I am certainly one of those people that owns an SSK, but often looks at a HHKB as too expensive. Part of the reasoning is that I knew what I was getting when I got the SSK, and I knew I would love it. It is familiar to me since I've typed on a Model M before, and I own a Unicomp Classic 104. There is more risk for me when getting a HHKB because I'm not really sure I'll love, or even like, Torpe. So, at least for me it is risk vs reward.

[rawkus]

I think what it comes down to is that no matter what the product, the enthusiasts of said product will be somewhat split as far as popular opinion.  People seem to want to take sides, and then defend their side to the point of negativity in some cases, for instance, PC vs console and AMD vs Nvidia GPU's.  I don't see any way to avoid this, as online communities and forums are increasing access to knowledge on these products, as well as allowing more people to express their opinions.  While having sides can be playful, with so many new members joining everyday, wanting to find out unbiased information on their options, I think we should be wary of turning threads into arguments of A over B, etc.  Not to say that's all that I've seen, but it does take some effort sometimes to find good information, when having to filter through lots of troll posts.

[engicoder]

I think Topre is poo-poo'd because they are seen as "rubber dome", while Model M is seen as "bucking spring".

In the simple world view for the unencumbered, their are two kinds of keyboards: Mechanical and Rubber Dome. Unfortunately reality is always a bit more complicated, and there are countless switch categories limited only by how what attributes you choose to create the category. Topre has a rubber dome, so if you choose that as the attribute, it can be categorized as a rubber dome keyboard. Likewise, Model M has a membrane, so it can be categorized as a membrane keyboard.
If we look at the basic aspects of a switch, it might be best to categorize each separately: (this is off the top of my head so needs refinement)

Registration - how does the switch register a key press
 - metal contacts (make or brake, etc)
 - capacitive
 - membrane sheets
 - hall effect
 - etc

Actuation - how does the switch bring about the registration
 - rubber dome
 - buckling spring
 - slider
 - foil and foam
 - etc

Structure - how is a switch constructed
 - individual
 - monolithic
 - etc


There are many possible combinations, even within one aspect. In the end its the feel of the keyboard that diffentiates them. That feel is the result of complex interactions between the aspects of the switch, so its impossible to say that because a switch shares one aspect with another that they will feel the same.

[JPG]

My understanding of the situation is the following: Different switches feel different and we all have our own preference.


Let's take the cherry world for example: There's many different Cherry switches. There's even more variations if you include all the mods possible. The reason is that different people prefer different switches and there can't be 1 BEST switch because the best switch for someone is the worst switch for someone else.


If we come back to Topre and BS here's what we have (in my opinion):


Topre: The switch feels sturdy. Not much wobble. It's very smooth and light and it has a very rubberrish cushioned bottom out feel. It is not a rubber dome. It's a quality switch. BUT, if you don't like it's feeling, then you definitely feel the rubber aspect of it and can't prevent yourself from doing jokes about them to annoy those that really like this switch (that's my case).


BS: This switch is definitely a super tactile and super sturdy switch. It's not light, but once you get used to it it feels light and crisp. More so for the model F. I don't want to start a M vs F war, but if you compare them side by side you can feel the difference. It's then up to you to decide which one you prefer. To me the model F is a clear winner, but to someone else it could be the opposite.


Now why the hate/jokes/troll towards Topre? Very simple:


1. Those that like Topre have the habit to start topics where they glorify the Topre switch to the extreme. It's the case for all switches, but it happens much more often for Topre and most Topre lovers usually LOVE Topre and HATE everything else (or at least that's what most people post in these threads). So if you don't like Topre, you have this "club" of people that are so easy to joke about.


2. If you don't like BS, it's usually because the switch is not light enough for you or you don't like the sound/tactility and it ends there. When you don't like Topre, whatever you don't like in this switch, you are deeply reminded of rubber dome when you bottom out. And if there's one thing that is quite a consensus is that rubber dome sucks. Not because there's no good rubber dome, but mainly because there so many many sucky rubber dome keyboards that we all had to endure that we just don't want to go back to it.


So if you add 1 and 2 (a group of people glorifying a switch that you don't like and a switch that has an aspect of it that reminds of the rubber dome), you get a magic formula for easy jokes/trolling.


That's the way I see it anyway.


If you see me joking about Topre, I encourage you to joke about BS. As long as there's no real hate behind the comment and it stays a joke, I will laugh at it with pleasure.

[dante]

My haiku for this thread:

Topre for work,
Bucklng Springs for home
No jimmies rustled

[plegnic]

My haiku for this thread:

Topre for work,
Bucklng Springs for home
No jimmies rustled

4, 5, 5: This isn't a haiku.
Haiku is 5, 7, 5.

[jamster]

Model Ms also get a pass for being... vintage. Also, they are such huge, heavy and noisy beasts that they just seem incomparable to rubber dome boards regardless of operating mechanism, and just exude industrial strength machismo.

[dante]

My haiku for this thread:

Topre for work,
Bucklng Springs for home
No jimmies rustled

4, 5, 5: This isn't a haiku.
Haiku is 5, 7, 5.

I need to brush up it would seem!

[katushkin]

With the price question, I would say essentially it comes down to rarity. The HHKB is widely produced and pretty readily available, where a well presented, bolt-modded SSK is a hard thing to find.

Also take into consideration the fact that an SSK is "vintage" and is basically the grandaddy of small-sized mechs. It's a piece of history really.

In 5/10 years time I can see HHKBs remaining desireable, but the durability of topre switches vs BS is something we need to wait that long for.

[smknjoe]

My haiku for this thread:

Topre for work,
Bucklng Springs for home
No jimmies rustled

4, 5, 5: This isn't a haiku.
Haiku is 5, 7, 5.

I need to brush up it would seem!

[plegnic]

My haiku for this thread:

Topre for work,
Bucklng Springs for home
No jimmies rustled

4, 5, 5: This isn't a haiku.
Haiku is 5, 7, 5.

I need to brush up it would seem!

I'll let it slide, this time. 

[Snowdog993]

Technically, all keyboards are mechanical.  They all have moving parts and you have to physically press each button to get a response.  Be that as it may, maybe there is a reason why Model M's and Model F's get a pass.

They are great keyboards.  They feel wonderful to type on, and in my opinion, the reason I like the Model M the most is the layout.  A Model F can be a rewarding keyboard to have, however, it is a mission of money and work to get them the way you want them.  The XTant project is the most amazing thing I have seen to come out of turning the original XT into something that is more ANSI and comfortable to use.

The 101-key Model M has the layout that is the standard all other keyboards have.

There is a huge advantage to this.  You don't have to change the way you type on a cheap rubberdome keyboard.  If there are changes to the ANSI design, you can find yourself adjusting time and time again if you change to a non ANSI keyboard.  If even one key is out of place, you find yourself lost and adjusting.

Buckling springs feel great to type on.  Anyone who is a typist knows this.  There have been other types of keyboards that try to get the feeling, and rubberdome is a very inexpensive contribution.  The only thing I don't like about rubberdome keyboards (most of them) is they lose life after serious use.  The keys start feeling uneven to the point of frustration.  A new rubbedome keyboard feels good until they wear out.  Is that so bad?  The price comparison makes rubberdome keyboards a substantial value for anyone!

Keyboards are a tool.  You can invest in a cheap keyboard and it will give you good performance until it simply won't do the job for you.  You can invest in a buckling spring keyboard, and be assured it will feel great for a much much much longer period of time than most every keyboard available to this day!

Overall, the longevity of the feel of a Model M depends on how well you take care of it.  What is nice is there are abused Model M keyboards that have gone through more than I can imagine, and yet with a bit of time and care, and a little money for replacement parts, these keyboards are well worth restoring.  Better than just throwing them in the trash. 

I know when I type on this Model M here, I can go over to that Model M there, and not feel the difference.  You can do that with ANY personal keyboard you prefer.  I just happen to like typing, and I know what works for me.  Perhaps you feel pressing 11 keys in a bizarre chord is important to you.  If that is the case, I guess it isn't being used as a keyboard, is it?  I believe you might want something else for that task.

There is no argument.  The Model M is a well designed and engineered keyboard.  Bringing them back to life is a rewarding feeling.  What is more rewarding, is typing on them.

[Den441]

I think it is all about the key feel in relation to the standard rubber dome or scissor switch keyboards we all used before getting into mechanical keyboards. A model M feels nothing like the aformentioned boards, so it automatically gets a pass. A Topre does have a similar key feel to a rubber dome, so it doesn't. I think Topre boards are really for users that have experience with multiple keyboard types. If you do not have that experience, I don't think you can truly appreciate the Topre for what it is.

[KHAANNN]

I agree to the posts that state it's all about the feeling, whether rubber dome or not, I'm more into maintainability and keycaps, that's why Cherry MX is superior to all, have a problem? replace it.

What I really don't get is: Why isn't there any Topre/HHKB keysets?!

So people think Topre's are expensive/high class, but in reality, they probably don't have 10k$'s combined to launch a group buy for a new keyset

(In reality, the reason is probably more of the lack of manufacturers and molds etc., I'm mostly kidding)

[Bromono]

well arn't SSKs considerd rare and are no longer made. Justifying the higher price tag since it is an item that will become rarer.

Compared to an HHKB that is an import, making it harder to get then most keyboards, but is not as rare and is still being made.


Also what is the cost factor for making these keyboards? How much was the SSK retail vs the HHKB?

[KeypressGraphics]

Things can get wildly blown out of proportion on Internet forums. A very solid, well-made keyboard may be hailed as the "God" of keyboards for instance.

I grew up in the 1980s when IBM Model M keyboards were pretty much the norm. I always found them fatiguing to type on, but it could be that my typing technique back then -before I'd had formal training- was a contributing factor. Either way, after sitting in countless classrooms populated with Model Ms during the 80s & 90s I can't recall a single instance of a student gushing over how wonderful they were to type on. Today's hipster culture and the lure of nostalgia probably has a lot to do with why these keyboards have become so desirable, though to be fair the phrase "they don't make them like they used to" holds a lot of truth here as many products coming out of China these days are pure junk.

As for Topre, I'm enjoying typing on my HHKB which is a very nicely built little keyboard, the switches feel quite nice and they produce a satisfying sound. After saying that its far from the exhilaratingly orgasmic typing experience some of its' owners attempt to project. There seems to be a perceived exclusivity to owning a Topre keyboard, which their prices and Topre-only keycap system contribute towards. Also the fact that they generally aren't widely available in western countries, and happen to be Japanese-built. If the internet has taught me anything its that Japanese culture & product fanboys tend to be a very strange and obsessive bunch.

[Belfong]

My serious answer to this, which might sound silly, is:
1. Size has something to do with this. $200 for a SSK, huge physically, sound like a bargain compare to that tiny HHKB.

2. Vintage stuff is understandably expensive. New IT stuff should be much cheaper. So how can a HHKB built on new technology be more expensive than a "vintage, classic, not in production anymore" SSK?

[tbc]

this is a really easy one and some others have mentioned it already.

1. a model M feels FAR FAR more different to a regular membrane than a topre does.  100% fact.  no matter how different a topre feels than a dell, an M feels even more so.  better feeling?  depends on the person obviously and is entirely irrelevant.

2. M's can get REALLY cheap.  $75 no problem from what people tell me.  add in $100 in cleaning labour and you're still cheaper than a RF.  I think i'm rather pro topre with these numbers honestly.

3.  Ms are retro.  everything retro here gets tons of bonus points.  topre just doesn't inspire 'retroness' in the same way an M does.

[fknraiden]

i've only spent a small amount of time typing on BS and Topre, BS felt more satisfying, topre felt weird coming from mx, but maybe that was because it was probably 45g and im used to 85.
BS was generic model m, not sure specifics.
Topre was a ..****. cant remember, one of the cheaper ones, not the f660m or whatever it is.

[Sencha]

HHKB/Topre: As much as people say these boards are for rich people, they really aren't all that expensive.

Mine was the same price bought from amazon.jp as it was to buy a Filco in this country. So don't see the expense argument myself

[fohat.digs]

A Model F can be a rewarding keyboard to have, however, it is a mission of money and work to get them the way you want them. 

The 101-key Model M has the layout that is the standard all other keyboards have.

The Model M is a well designed and engineered keyboard.  Bringing them back to life is a rewarding feeling.

“No one ever got fired for buying IBM.” This phrase is often called the most powerful marketing phrase ever created.  In the 1980s, if you had to decide what computer hardware to buy for your company, these words rang through your head.  It made your buying decision pretty easy. 

- See more at: http://corporatevisions.com/blog/2007/06/11/no-one-ever-got-fired-for-buying-ibm/#sthash.QoBBLfFQ.dpuf

[tp4tissue]

It has primarily to do with   Anti-Weeaboo-ism

But also lesser reasons____


There are far fewer people claiming Model-M = God keyboard..

Topre-People are different. and many of them in denial..  They DENY that topre feels exactly like rubber dome.. This is a fact, that for "whatever reason" they are compelled to thwart....

NO ONE is saying that FEELING like rubberdome = BAD,   but to say that TOPRE doesn't feel like rubberdome, and that it's somehow dramatically different and superior to rubberdome IN FEEL..  THAT is a rationalization...


Topre is superior for the 2mm actuation, but as to how it FEELS to type on.. BULL FREAKING ****.

[Blackehart]

I think the price issue is that an hhkb costs more than a full sized board.
The way I see it is, you're paying more for a keyboard that is smaller than a 60% (not counting fn layers) when there are 60% boards that cost about half as much.

The new poker 3 is what? 120?
A new HHKB is what 200ish? more if you go type-s and what not? ( I think there is an hhkb in classifieds going for almost 500 O.O!)

thems my 2 scents