Author Topic: So that Baltimore thing.  (Read 11543 times)

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Offline demik

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #100 on: Wed, 29 April 2015, 22:19:27 »
not all.

some are cowards that don't speak up. and are just as bad.

but hey, the blue line must not be crossed.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site

You know, it may really be that bad in the trenches where you are, and in which case, I feel lucky to not have to be in that kind of environment. But not all cops are evil, and those who do not speak up are not necessarily cowards. They have their own families that they have to take care of as well. It's not all as black and white as you make it seem to be, and it's not healthy to label *all* cops as the enemy - that kind of behaviour is not much different than racism. Not saying you are a racist, just drawing parallels between the attitudes.

That being said, you present some alarming examples of police corruption, and that is definitely something that needs to be fixed post haste, and I learned something from that, so thank you on that point.

they can only blame themselves for fearing other cops. turn a blind eye and more will pop up.

this is what happens when it gets out of control.

http://www.freeabq.com/?p=1673


i dont see cops as the enemy. i just don't put blind trust in them. they aren't here for me. they're here to uphold the law and create revenue by any means necessary.

and this isn't a race issue. cops have attacked people of every race. it isn't just white cops that beat people. it's just the media that latches on to white on black crime for ratings.

and, tbh, it's only black people that care enough to speak up. now if only they got stuff under control they'd probably achieve something.
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 April 2015, 22:22:04 by demik »
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #101 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 02:20:45 »
People interested in this topic should read this interview with David Simon:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

Summary: Baltimore cops have spent the last 15+ years being totally arbitrary thugs instead of doing police work, and cooking the books to make their crime stats look good, and now everything is a mess and nobody likes them. Blame the drug war, and blame police commissioners and politicians looking after their own career advancement instead of the integrity of the police department.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2015, 02:40:53 by jacobolus »

Offline baldgye

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #102 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 03:05:00 »
People interested in this topic should read this interview with David Simon:
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish

Summary: Baltimore cops have spent the last 15+ years being totally arbitrary thugs instead of doing police work, and cooking the books to make their crime stats look good, and now everything is a mess and nobody likes them. Blame the drug war, and blame police commissioners and politicians looking after their own career advancement instead of the integrity of the police department.

So pretty much The Wire then

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #103 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 10:52:27 »

You know somebody is white when they use their black friends as reference material for discussions on race.  Or at least not black.

The root of these issues is systematic.  One thing is all related to another.  Poverty, schools, jobs, the economy, parenting, race, community, individual decision making influenced by cultural trends, all these things are interconnected and related to produce outcomes.

What's your point? What does my ethnicity have to do with this? You just repeated the exact same thing I said, except with a snarky and pointless comment.

Note that I mentioned it is not race, it is linked to poverty, and also familial upbringing, and other factors, so you're just regurgitating what I said. My comment on my black friends was meant to address the fact that it is not race that influences your actions, but environment and family values.

 My point is that using "my black friends..." as supporting evidence for your arguments is crappy supporting evidence, regardless of your race, national origin, economic background, etc.  I admit to not reading your whole post because whenever I see the phrase "my black friends" I have a knee jerk reaction to believe that the speaker has no clue what it is like to grow up and live in poverty with crap family life in a crap urban American neighborhood with crap schools and crap jobs and not enough resources to access places with better jobs and education opportunities to climb out of poverty and then the additional influence of racial messages and being a member of a race that has been systemically repressed for most of your country's history, and a large chunk of the population still holds veiled racist views against you and doesn't really want to take the effort and energy to understand you as a person.  All the speaker has is their limited interactions in the bubble of their daily and lifetime experiences (we all live in our little bubbles, fyi), and should make an effort to visualize themselves in these less-than-ideal environments to understand why people act the way they do, rather default to their own limited experiences as evidence.

Then you write things like " Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count." 

And I'm like wut.  What the hell is that? Of course it's not an innate racial thing, you don't need a grand scientific study to figure that out and will serve to justify currently held racist views and discourage people from understanding each person as a person.  Anecdotal evidence will work just fine to answer that question.  The more people you meet, the more places you go, the more interactions and experiences you develop, the more you understand that WE ARE ALL ONE, and way more alike than we are different.  And this is a beautiful thing, because it allows us to connect with and understand almost anyone.

Okay, then stuff like this: "*WHY* is this the case?...How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities..."

You don't seem to understand human nature very well.  We are human, we are inherently flawed, we always will be, and our institutions and cultures always will be flawed because they reflect who we are as people.  We always will create problem to be solved, because each of us are problems to be solved.  Things can be improved, but most likely never completely solved.  Psychology is a heck of a field for understanding human behavior.  You can attempt to apply scientific research and engineer a solution, but we are humans, not robots.  We are emotional, irrational, self-absorbed, and basically incapable of making the best decisions based on all the best information because the limitations of our tiny human minds to grasp the information overload that is modern life.  Accept it, don't cause problems yourself, and the world is a better place just because of that.

Like you mentioned, a variety of factors are at play that influence why individuals act the way that they do.  The main problem that I see in discussions of race is people do not consider how an individual's decision making is influenced by many factors to produce outcomes, and we lack empathy and compassion with how we attempt to understand people.

A lot of the other things you have written throughout this thread could use some further analysis, but I'm not gonna bother right now.

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Offline ttzhou

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #104 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 12:21:54 »
My point is that using "my black friends..." as supporting evidence for your arguments is crappy supporting evidence, regardless of your race, national origin, economic background, etc.  I admit to not reading your whole post because whenever I see the phrase "my black friends" I have a knee jerk reaction to believe that the speaker has no clue what it is like to grow up and live in poverty with crap family life in a crap urban American neighborhood with crap schools and crap jobs and not enough resources to access places with better jobs and education opportunities to climb out of poverty and then the additional influence of racial messages and being a member of a race that has been systemically repressed for most of your country's history, and a large chunk of the population still holds veiled racist views against you and doesn't really want to take the effort and energy to understand you as a person.  All the speaker has is their limited interactions in the bubble of their daily and lifetime experiences (we all live in our little bubbles, fyi), and should make an effort to visualize themselves in these less-than-ideal environments to understand why people act the way they do, rather default to their own limited experiences as evidence.


I don't know you in person, nor do I profess to know anything about you. As such, I don't make "knee-jerk" reactions about you either. So I say this very, very, very kindly. You don't know **** about me, or my upbringing, or what I went through. So kindly step off that topic before assuming more about me.

If you had quoted my entire sentence, rather than using an ellipsis to highlight my words out of context, you would note that I specfically referred to my well educated black friends who come from a good family background. They empathize with the situation and the peaceful protesters, but are disgusted by the looters. The reason I used them as an example was to show that it is NOT race, but how you are RAISED that influences your actions. There are much poorer, more underprivileged people in Asia, South America who do not riot under their oppressive regime. Instead, they bear it with dignity and try to focus on improving their situation through peaceful means. So really, there is *no excuse* for the violent rioting. Period.

Quote

Then you write things like " Is it an innate, racial thing? I don't know. We can't say without cold, hard evidence. Anecdotal observations don't count." 

And I'm like wut.  What the hell is that? Of course it's not an innate racial thing, you don't need a grand scientific study to figure that out and will serve to justify currently held racist views and discourage people from understanding each person as a person.  Anecdotal evidence will work just fine to answer that question.  The more people you meet, the more places you go, the more interactions and experiences you develop, the more you understand that WE ARE ALL ONE, and way more alike than we are different.  And this is a beautiful thing, because it allows us to connect with and understand almost anyone.


You are taking what I say out of context. I said that a response to common reasons cited by racists for their causes. Nowhere did I say that was my opinion.

Quote
Okay, then stuff like this: "*WHY* is this the case?...How can we fix it? Or is it so difficult and entrenched in American society/history that it is unresolvable? This is what really interests me. If only we could scientifically test this. But people are too sensitive and politically correct to entertain the notion. Science and effective problem resolution is so often held back by these bleeding heart sentimentalities..."

You don't seem to understand human nature very well.  We are human, we are inherently flawed, we always will be, and our institutions and cultures always will be flawed because they reflect who we are as people.  We always will create problem to be solved, because each of us are problems to be solved.  Things can be improved, but most likely never completely solved.  Psychology is a heck of a field for understanding human behavior.  You can attempt to apply scientific research and engineer a solution, but we are humans, not robots.  We are emotional, irrational, self-absorbed, and basically incapable of making the best decisions based on all the best information because the limitations of our tiny human minds to grasp the information overload that is modern life.  Accept it, don't cause problems yourself, and the world is a better place just because of that.


I understand human nature perfectly fine. Furthermore, it is this attitude you profess that "humans are inherently flawed and can never be fully rehabilitated" that perpetuates the problem. I believe we should hold ourselves to a higher standard and strive to improve these things. It may never happen - but it is much, much better than resigning ourselves to our so called fate as flawed creatures.

Quote
Like you mentioned, a variety of factors are at play that influence why individuals act the way that they do.  The main problem that I see in discussions of race is people do not consider how an individual's decision making is influenced by many factors to produce outcomes, and we lack empathy and compassion with how we attempt to understand people.

A lot of the other things you have written throughout this thread could use some further analysis, but I'm not gonna bother right now.

I look forward to your analysis, and replying to it. Thank you for taking the time to read what I write (no sarcasm, meant in earnest).

« Last Edit: Thu, 30 April 2015, 12:48:34 by ttzhou »

Offline ttzhou

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #105 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 12:43:36 »
accidental double post

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #106 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 13:57:22 »
OK.. So the cops are saying.. he sustained the "80%-severed" spinal injury, while riding unbelted in the police Van as he was being taken away..


Now... This seeeems plausible.  As I am not totally sure how conscious/alive a man can be had he sustained that injury Prior to entering the police van..  He seemed like he was coherent while getting "into the van"  in the crowd sourced video..

Hrrm.......

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #107 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 15:22:08 »
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies.  We all deserve to be heard.  I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event.  These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems.  That's my major beef.  People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.
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Offline ttzhou

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #108 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 15:30:15 »
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies.  We all deserve to be heard.  I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event.  These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems.  That's my major beef.  People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.

Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two.  :thumb:

Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #109 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 18:33:37 »
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies.  We all deserve to be heard.  I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event.  These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems.  That's my major beef.  People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.

Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two.  :thumb:

Yea, you're probably right.  I think I was a little pissy today, male PMS or something.

Not saying this is you in particular, but I get going when I hear many comments concerning race and American urban issues from people that have no clue what it's like to live in a lower income, non-white American urban neighborhood, and how that might influence a person.
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Offline ttzhou

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #110 on: Thu, 30 April 2015, 20:10:22 »
Ttzhou, thanks for your replies.  We all deserve to be heard.  I know what I said was a little rant-like and accusatory, but I also believe than any major event or social issue needs to be understand and examined from the level of individual decision and actor that causes the event.  These are the individual actions and choices that need to the events we read about in the news, and how we act and treat each other on an individual level is the root cause of all human problems.  That's my major beef.  People tend to throw out blanket assumptions, rather than attempt to understand from the individual level.

Haha things always get heated when we don't have tone and face-to-face contact - that's the Internet for you! I'm sure we'd be way more chill and laid back over this if we talked about this in person over a beer or two.  :thumb:

Yea, you're probably right.  I think I was a little pissy today, male PMS or something.

Not saying this is you in particular, but I get going when I hear many comments concerning race and American urban issues from people that have no clue what it's like to live in a lower income, non-white American urban neighborhood, and how that might influence a person.

No, you're right, I guess I give off the vibe of being someone who doesn't know what it's like on the other side of the tracks by the way I write. I mean, I am in good standards now that I live here in Canada, but I used to live the poor immigrant life too, downtown LA and in Dinkytown (yes, that is a legit town name), and my family was constantly harassed and abused by Mao's Red Guard in the old Communist motherland. I know what it's like to not have a lot.

I was lucky to have two hard-working parents though, who took the time to raise me right. A lot of my friends then didn't and it's sad to see where they ended up, for the few that I still know about. I think that's where my perspective on nature vs nurture really stems from. But definitely, I didn't have it as hard as a lot of folks in the trenches; I'm trying to learn though and gain more perspective on that.

Offline demik

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:08:27 »
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/01/1381699/-Baltimore-State-s-Attorney-Freddie-Gray-s-death-was-a-homicide-and-criminal-charges-will-be-pursued

Quote
* Ruled a **homicide**
* Cause of neck injury was being handcuffed in van but not secured by seatbelt
* **No probable cause for Gray's arrest**: his knife was legal, wasn't a switchblade
* All six officers charged, charges including **2nd degree murder** (for one officer only), negligent manslaughter, assault, false imprisonment, misconduct in office, mishandling of evidence
* Warrant has been issued for arrest of officers involved

This is huge news.

Specific charges:

> *Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr.:* Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle, misconduct in office.

> *Officer William G. Porter:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.

> *Lt. Brian W. Rice:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Officer Edward M. Nero:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Officer Garrett Miller:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Sgt. Alicia D. White:* Manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.

Now to wait for them to be magically acquitted.
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Offline baldgye

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #112 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:14:57 »
Isn't it a big deal for them to have been charged though? Considering past cases?

Offline demik

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #113 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 14:44:14 »
Isn't it a big deal for them to have been charged though? Considering past cases?

No. Most would think they are being charged to calm things down.

We need stuff to stick.
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Offline demik

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:32:35 »
more loveliness

rioter turns himself in, bail set at half a million dollars

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/30/baltimore-rioters-parents-500000-bail-allen-bullock?CMP=fb_us

cops' bail? highest is 350,000.

http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/Press-conference-by-States-Attorney-Regarding-Freddie-Gray-302151401.html

i mean ****.. then people wonder why they don't trust the justice system.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #115 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:40:09 »
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/05/01/1381699/-Baltimore-State-s-Attorney-Freddie-Gray-s-death-was-a-homicide-and-criminal-charges-will-be-pursued

Quote
* Ruled a **homicide**
* Cause of neck injury was being handcuffed in van but not secured by seatbelt
* **No probable cause for Gray's arrest**: his knife was legal, wasn't a switchblade
* All six officers charged, charges including **2nd degree murder** (for one officer only), negligent manslaughter, assault, false imprisonment, misconduct in office, mishandling of evidence
* Warrant has been issued for arrest of officers involved

This is huge news.

Specific charges:

> *Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr.:* Second-degree depraved heart murder, involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, manslaughter by vehicle, misconduct in office.

> *Officer William G. Porter:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.

> *Lt. Brian W. Rice:* Involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Officer Edward M. Nero:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Officer Garrett Miller:* Second-degree assault, misconduct in office, false imprisonment.

> *Sgt. Alicia D. White:* Manslaughter, second-degree assault, misconduct in office.

Now to wait for them to be magically acquitted.

Riot, the 2nd coming.. Here we go...

Offline demik

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #116 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:42:19 »
look at these cops, just looking out for us. being oh so kind.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/2460434-155/west-jordan-police-sued-for-excessive
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 01 May 2015, 19:43:21 »
Isn't it a big deal for them to have been charged though? Considering past cases?

No. Most would think they are being charged to calm things down.

We need stuff to stick.

I think making 1 tribute out of 1 of the officers might be a necessary concession this time around to keep Riot-2 from manifesting.

Offline jacobolus

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Offline jacobolus

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Re: So that Baltimore thing.
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 02 May 2015, 02:27:20 »
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10205579479419696&set=a.1094624319194.16785.1034140091&type=1
Quote
OK...here it is...

I'm going to try to keep this as brief as I can, but I've been asked by several people about Central Booking today, so I'll give you guys the shocking highlights. As much as I'd like to, I can't describe the particulars of some of the more egregious arrests, due to attorney/client privilege issues, but I would like to describe the Civil Liberties violations, and the deplorable conditions which people have had to endure.

As many of you know, more than 250 people have been arrested since Monday here in Baltimore. Normally when you are arrested, you are given a copy of your charging documents and then you must see a commissioner within 24 hours for a bail determination ("prompt presentment") and given a trial date. If you are not released after the commissioner hearing, you will be brought before a judge for
a review of the bail set by the commissioner. None of this was happening, so we sent some lawyers to Central Booking yesterday to try to help. I heard, however, that only 2 commissioners showed up, and the correctional officers only brought about 9 people to be interviewed because the jail was on a mysterious "lock-down".

Today we were divided into two groups. Some of the lawyers were assigned the task of actually doing judicial bail reviews for as many folks as they could get interviewed and docketed. I was assigned to the other group. We were the "habeas team", and we were to interview folks that we felt were being illegally detained, so we could file writs of habeas corpus. Governor Hogan had issued an
executive order, extending the time for prompt presentment to 47 hours. We believed that this order was invalid because the governor has no authority to alter the Maryland Rules. As a result, all people who were being detained for more than 24 hours without seeing a commissioner were being held illegally.

Knowing all of this, I was still not prepared for what I saw when I arrived. The small concrete booking cells were filled with hundreds of people, most with more than ten people per cell. Three of us were sent to the women's side where there were up to 15 women per holding cell. Most of them had been there since Monday afternoon/evening. With the exception of 3 or 4 women, the women who weren't there for Monday's round-ups were there for freaking curfew violations. Many had not seen a doctor or received required medication. Many had not been able to reach a family member by phone. But here is the WORST thing. Not only had these women been held for two days and two nights without any sort of formal booking, BUT ALMOST NONE OF THEM HAD ACTUALLY BEEN CHARGED WITH ANYTHING. They were brought to CBIF via paddy wagons (most without seat belts, btw--a real shocker after all that's happened), and taken to holding cells without ever being charged with an actual crime. No offense reports. No statements of probable cause. A few women had a vague idea what they might be charged with, some because of what they had actually been involved in, and some because of what the officer said, but quite a few had no idea why they were even there. Incidentally, I interviewed no one whose potential charges would have been more serious than petty theft, and most seemed to be disorderly conduct or failure to obey, charges which would usually result in an immediate recog/release.

The holding cells are approximately 10x10 (some slightly larger), with one open sink and toilet. The women were instructed that the water was "bad" and that they shouldn't drink it. There are no beds--just a concrete cube. No blankets or pillows. The cells were designed to hold people for a few hours, not a few days. In the one cell which housed 15 women, there wasn't even enough room for them all to lay down at the same time. Three times a day, the guards brought each woman 4 slices of bread, a slice of american cheese and a small bag of cookies. They sometimes got juice, but water was scarce, as the CO's had to wheel a water cooler through every so often (the regular water being "broken".)

My fellow attorneys and I all separately heard the same sickening story over and over. None of the women really wanted to eat 4 slices of bread 3 times a day, so they were saving slices of bread TO USE AS PILLOWS. Let me say that again. THEY WERE ALL USING BREAD AS PILLOWS SO THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO LAY THEIR HEADS ON THE FILTHY CONCRETE FLOOR.

Interviewing these women was emotionally exhausting. Quite a few of them began crying--so happy to finally see someone who might know why they were there, or perhaps how they might get out of this Kafka-esque nightmare. These women came from all walks of life. We interviewed high school students, college students, people with graduate degrees, people with GED's, single women, married women,
mothers, the well-employed, the unemployed, black women and white women. Almost all of them had no record. Those that did, had things like dui's and very minor misdemeanors. Our group didn't interview any of the men on the other side, but my colleagues reported very similar situations. On the men's side there were journalists and activists, as well as highschool kids with no records, barely 18 years old.

As we were getting ready to leave, we heard that many of these folks might be released without charges, after being held for 2 days. When we returned to the office, our amazing "habeas fellow", Zina Makar, single-handedly filed 82 habeas petitions. That is when we heard that 101 people were released without charges. I'd like to think that the amazing legal response to this injustice played a large part in their release, and I feel privileged to have been a part of it. They may be charged later, but I'm guessing most of them won't based on how minor their alleged infractions are. There are still over a hundred folks in there that need to see a commissioner and/or a judge, but hopefully we have thinned the ranks a little, and we will keep fighting until everyone has received due process. (We are concerned about these folks potential bails, as we are hearing about bails in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for misdemeanor charges).

I'll wrap this up by reminding everyone that all lives matter. We are all human beings. And we are Americans, and as such we are afforded protections under the law, the guilty and innocent alike. If one person is denied due process, we all suffer. If one persons rights and freedoms are trampled on, it's not only a reflection on all of us, but it puts our own liberty at risk. The moment we view some individuals as more important than others, we cheapen ourselves. At the very essence of our democracy is the right to question and stand up to authority. During these trying times, we should all keep that in mind.

I'll leave you with a beautiful picture that was taken today of one of the women who was released without charges. Her husband had been waiting outside CBIF trying to find something...ANYTHING out about when she might be charged or released. This was taken moments after she walked out the door.....

I’m sure this kind of **** happens all the time in many places, but that doesn’t make it less broken.
« Last Edit: Sat, 02 May 2015, 02:34:43 by jacobolus »