Topre for gaming and reliability?

[IAmTheGuy]

Hi guys,

I like to play certain fighting games that have lots of repeated key press on a single key.  This means I wear them out very quickly - even mechanical ones! 

In fact, I'm somewhat disappointed with the actual reliability of mechanical switches.  Back when I was using cheapo keyboards I would replace one  every year when one of the keys dies on me.  Since I switched to mechanical keyboards, however, the mechanical keys develop key chatter in just about 4-5 month O.O ( I went through 3 this last year T.T)  They don't die outright like the rubber domes but they become unreliable enough to be frustrating.  Extrapolating my daily usage, the keys usually starts to breakdown after around 100,000 presses.   

So I'm looking into topre keys.  Are they more reliable than regular contact switches.  How well do they hold up for gaming?  Are they good for fast double pressing a key? 

Thanks a lot :3

[trizkut]

The real question is, why are you playing fighting games on a keyboard?  )

[chyros]

The real question is, why are you playing fighting games on a keyboard?  )

Why would you play any game on anything but a keyboard?

[IAmTheGuy]

Haha, I don't actually have a controller.  I play more of the niche pc fighting games that usually have tons of skills that needs to be mapped or needs a mouse to work.  So a keyboard is best for me.   

[greath]

What switches where you using?

[MellowFellow]

You experience chatter on mech boards quite often? That's strange

[GenKaan]

For half of a Topre keyboard you can get a stick, I suggest getting a stick or pad since if you are going to travel you need standard stuff.

[IAmTheGuy]

You experience chatter on mech boards quite often? That's strange

I was quite surprised myself!   Given the usual advertisement of 20 or 50 million statistics. 

[tp4tissue]

Which games are you playing such that it's killing your boards this fast..

Also.. please list the boards you've killed..

[septamber]

Are you going hulk smash on those poor keyboards?

[fuzzybaffy]

On a more serious note... I'll say Topre stems and switches definitely seem more sturdy and solid than Cherry MX switches, to me at least. I have no idea if that actually translates into higher reliability/durability, and there is the rubber underneath to consider (I have no idea how well it would take harsh use), but yea, the actual Topre stems and sliders feel more sturdy and solid.

Now, to clarify (for the MX fans), this is NOT a comment on whether or not Topre switches "are better". I'm just objectively talking about the build quality of the switches - I know it's absolutely possible for people to like a certain switch (let's say, MX switches) even though it might not be as well-built or sturdy as other switches (in this case, Topre). 

[Axollott]

He's the keyboard slaughterer, He's TheGuy. 

[Oobly]

Topre are not good for fast repeated keypresses, the "collapse" of the domes means you have to do almost a full movement in both directions, despite the 2mm actuation point.

Please list what boards you've "worn out" and have started chattering and what type of switches they're using. If any of them are a Noppoo, the problem may have more to do with the firmware debounce than the switches themselves.

I suspect that a high quality board with MX Blacks or Reds will be what you're after, but which one depends on your other criteria (do you need a numpad, do you need F keys, would you like it to be programmable, etc.)

[MellowFellow]

Topre are not good for fast repeated keypresses, the "collapse" of the domes means you have to do almost a full movement in both directions, despite the 2mm actuation point.

Please list what boards you've "worn out" and have started chattering and what type of switches they're using. If any of them are a Noppoo, the problem may have more to do with the firmware debounce than the switches themselves.

I suspect that a high quality board with MX Blacks or Reds will be what you're after, but which one depends on your other criteria (do you need a numpad, do you need F keys, would you like it to be programmable, etc.)

U sound like someone from razers marketting department.
Making it sound like 2mm will make a difference in gaming applications.

[Puddsy]

I still think Topres are garbage for gaming.

Just get reds.

[trizkut]

Topre are not good for fast repeated keypresses, the "collapse" of the domes means you have to do almost a full movement in both directions, despite the 2mm actuation point.

Please list what boards you've "worn out" and have started chattering and what type of switches they're using. If any of them are a Noppoo, the problem may have more to do with the firmware debounce than the switches themselves.

I suspect that a high quality board with MX Blacks or Reds will be what you're after, but which one depends on your other criteria (do you need a numpad, do you need F keys, would you like it to be programmable, etc.)

U sound like someone from razers marketting department.
Making it sound like 2mm will make a difference in gaming applications.

Making it sound like you know anything about 1-frame links.

[IAmTheGuy]

Ah I think you guys are right, the tactile bump does get in the way when I do a floating double press and a topre would be even harder to control!  Maybe a cherry red or matias linear switch will be nice. 

I've been using the Matias keyboards, the quiet pro, the quiet pro mini, and the tactile pro.    Now that I've done some research, I think I'm fatiguing the metal contacts.  When I get some time, maybe I can open the switch up and bend the contact back slightly.

And no, I haven't been going hulk smash on the keyboard  ,  though when I lose a match because of the keyboard I get a strong urge.

[Macsmasher]

I FPS game on Topre and love it. All I play are FPS games, and have since the mid 90s. I've used MX Reds and they're great for gaming as well. But I can't see that they're any better than Topre.


Regarding longevity, I'm a coder working all day on my keyboard. I used to go through a Logitech Wave keyboard every 3 - 5 months. As soon as the keys started to stick on their stems it got passed down to one of the kids. My first mech board was an MX Brown Das Ultimate. I used that for 3+ years. The switches were still fine, but the ABS key caps were glossy. When I bought my first RF 87U variable, I gave the Das away to a buddy and never looked back. I now rotate the variable with an 87U 55g and an HHKB. I've been 100% Topre for about three years now.


I still work on Cherry (blue or brown) boards from time to time but have no desire to buy one. It's like owning several Lexus cars and thinking about picking up a Hyundai...just because. What's the point?

[Nai_Calus]

Get a Model F, if you manage to kill that I don't think there's a keyboard in the universe that can handle you.

[appleonama]

I used my rf87u 45g for counter strike

[fuzzybaffy]

Yea... I think you should take a look at this: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70040.0

[Magna224]

I have a friend who uses a 103UB 55g uniform for osu! and mobas and for about two months I did the same. I felt it didn't hinder my gaming at all and I personally really like the RF a lot for general use. I sold it with plans to get a TKL topre later which is still on the menu but for dessert

[cheebs]

Hello fellow FG player

Which games are you playing?
Since you're claiming that they die around 100,000 presses, you've probably got one of the following problems:

* you're smashing on the keys so hard that you're slightly warping the mounting mechanism.
* your measurements are inaccurate
* you are extremely unlucky and have had nothing but defective switches

Topre switches are extremely durable, and regularly outlive their claimed keypress lifetime by nearly double.  However..

You're probably not going to want to buy them.  They are horrible for fighting games.  Fight pads / OEM console controllers work well because the buttons have very short travel.  The travel on a Topre switch is much longer and the tactile bump is much larger.  Get a linear switch like Cherry MX red/black, or Matias.  As you're probably aware, all of the sanwa / seimitsu switches in japanese arcades are linear, for the same reason.  They also have much shorter travel than a Cherry MX or Matias switch, so you might want to just build your own array of those switches, if you need a lot of them. 

[MellowFellow]

Hello fellow FG player

Which games are you playing?
Since you're claiming that they die around 100,000 presses, you've probably got one of the following problems:

* you're smashing on the keys so hard that you're slightly warping the mounting mechanism.
* your measurements are inaccurate
* you are extremely unlucky and have had nothing but defective switches

Topre switches are extremely durable, and regularly outlive their claimed keypress lifetime by nearly double.  However..

You're probably not going to want to buy them.  They are horrible for fighting games.  Fight pads / OEM console controllers work well because the buttons have very short travel.  The travel on a Topre switch is much longer and the tactile bump is much larger.  Get a linear switch like Cherry MX red/black, or Matias.  As you're probably aware, all of the sanwa / seimitsu switches in japanese arcades are linear, for the same reason.  They also have much shorter travel than a Cherry MX or Matias switch, so you might want to just build your own array of those switches, if you need a lot of them.

you're overexaggerating and you don't realize switches don't realize switches makes less of a difference than what most noobs think. As player performance goes it makez zero difference. also have you realized you're talking about 1mm worth of a difference? You sound like one those ppl from razers PR department, trying to trick the noobs into thinking their 1 mm actuation difference will make a difference in gamer. The WORST part is, you actually believe it LOL. And trying to pass down misinformation down. sigh....

[chyros]

Hello fellow FG player

Which games are you playing?
Since you're claiming that they die around 100,000 presses, you've probably got one of the following problems:

* you're smashing on the keys so hard that you're slightly warping the mounting mechanism.
* your measurements are inaccurate
* you are extremely unlucky and have had nothing but defective switches

Topre switches are extremely durable, and regularly outlive their claimed keypress lifetime by nearly double.  However..

You're probably not going to want to buy them.  They are horrible for fighting games.  Fight pads / OEM console controllers work well because the buttons have very short travel.  The travel on a Topre switch is much longer and the tactile bump is much larger.  Get a linear switch like Cherry MX red/black, or Matias.  As you're probably aware, all of the sanwa / seimitsu switches in japanese arcades are linear, for the same reason.  They also have much shorter travel than a Cherry MX or Matias switch, so you might want to just build your own array of those switches, if you need a lot of them.

you're overexaggerating and you don't realize switches don't realize switches makes less of a difference than what most noobs think. As player performance goes it makez zero difference. also have you realized you're talking about 1mm worth of a difference? You sound like one those ppl from razers PR department, trying to trick the noobs into thinking their 1 mm actuation difference will make a difference in gamer. The WORST part is, you actually believe it LOL. And trying to pass down misinformation down. sigh....

Dude you need to seriously mellow out .

[cheebs]

Hello fellow FG player

Which games are you playing?
Since you're claiming that they die around 100,000 presses, you've probably got one of the following problems:

* you're smashing on the keys so hard that you're slightly warping the mounting mechanism.
* your measurements are inaccurate
* you are extremely unlucky and have had nothing but defective switches

Topre switches are extremely durable, and regularly outlive their claimed keypress lifetime by nearly double.  However..

You're probably not going to want to buy them.  They are horrible for fighting games.  Fight pads / OEM console controllers work well because the buttons have very short travel.  The travel on a Topre switch is much longer and the tactile bump is much larger.  Get a linear switch like Cherry MX red/black, or Matias.  As you're probably aware, all of the sanwa / seimitsu switches in japanese arcades are linear, for the same reason.  They also have much shorter travel than a Cherry MX or Matias switch, so you might want to just build your own array of those switches, if you need a lot of them.

you're overexaggerating and you don't realize switches don't realize switches makes less of a difference than what most noobs think. As player performance goes it makez zero difference. also have you realized you're talking about 1mm worth of a difference? You sound like one those ppl from razers PR department, trying to trick the noobs into thinking their 1 mm actuation difference will make a difference in gamer. The WORST part is, you actually believe it LOL. And trying to pass down misinformation down. sigh....

Well, I think to an extent you are right.  The difference in performance advantage of a Razer green and Cherry MX blue switch is so minute that maybe only pros would be able to tell the difference ( or maybe all that green Razer is giving them introduces a bias ).  Either way, that's not really what I'm talking about.

Having played fighting games for years, I've learned that if you want to be good at them (and not frustrate the hell out of yourself), you really need to be able to execute your combos consistently and on-demand.  In some games that is no small feat.

Making it sound like you know anything about 1-frame links.

He's referring to a type of combo in many fighting games which requires you to press a button 0.016~ seconds after you pressed the first.  These sort of combos are actually fundamental to the game and any good player needs to be able to perform them.  There are some tricks you can use to make this slightly easier such as priority linking, but in some cases you can't use that.  In these types of situations, yes, the switch you're using really does matter.  You need something light that you can just tap quickly and get on with it.  I think fighting games are a great example because they rely quite a bit on the player having good reflexes.  An RPG could be a counterexample.

Anyway, I think you're just underestimating the fine control and sensitivity that the human finger has.  I think everyone can agree that scissor switches (laptop keyboards) have a huge difference in feel to a standard keyboard.  Did you know that the difference in travel distance is only 2mm?  If I was pressing the keys with my foot I probably wouldn't be able to tell, but the finger is a much more precise tool.

[MellowFellow]

Hello fellow FG player

Which games are you playing?
Since you're claiming that they die around 100,000 presses, you've probably got one of the following problems:

* you're smashing on the keys so hard that you're slightly warping the mounting mechanism.
* your measurements are inaccurate
* you are extremely unlucky and have had nothing but defective switches

Topre switches are extremely durable, and regularly outlive their claimed keypress lifetime by nearly double.  However..

You're probably not going to want to buy them.  They are horrible for fighting games.  Fight pads / OEM console controllers work well because the buttons have very short travel.  The travel on a Topre switch is much longer and the tactile bump is much larger.  Get a linear switch like Cherry MX red/black, or Matias.  As you're probably aware, all of the sanwa / seimitsu switches in japanese arcades are linear, for the same reason.  They also have much shorter travel than a Cherry MX or Matias switch, so you might want to just build your own array of those switches, if you need a lot of them.

you're overexaggerating and you don't realize switches don't realize switches makes less of a difference than what most noobs think. As player performance goes it makez zero difference. also have you realized you're talking about 1mm worth of a difference? You sound like one those ppl from razers PR department, trying to trick the noobs into thinking their 1 mm actuation difference will make a difference in gamer. The WORST part is, you actually believe it LOL. And trying to pass down misinformation down. sigh....

Dude you need to seriously mellow out .

Making it sound like ppl can type and game faster on apple's legendary chiclet keyboards, ke ke ke
Might as well buy one of those flat razer keyboards while you're at it, and maybe a keyboard from one of microsoft's offerings

[IAmTheGuy]

You know I've always felt my old laptop scissor switches were great for fighting games because:

1. You know exactly where the actuation point is
2. The travel distance is very short

Its blasphemy on this forum but when I switched from the laptop keyboard to mechanical ones I was initially unable to do the same animation canceling as before.  It took me a couple of weeks to get used to the new timings. 

I also bought a windows xidewinder "gaming" keyboard before I knew about mechanical keyboard.  I'm completely unable to do any of the animation canceling on that keyboard no matter how much I practice.  So I do think the kind of keyboard matters for gaming but only in a narrow set of situations.  If you play FPS or RTS then its true it really doesn't matter.

[Eugene]

U sound like someone from razers marketting department.
Making it sound like 2mm will make a difference in gaming applications.

Razer's claim is that their actuation point is after 1.9mm of travel vs Cherry's 2mm. That's not really what is being pointed out here. The actuation and reset feel on Topre keys is very, very different than that of a Cherry MX. More force is felt pushing back against your fingertip in each direction. That gives the illusion of greater hysteresis perhaps. I can tell you that I have tried to play spammy games on my Realforce and there's no question I prefer Cherry MX for gaming, especially linears.

[fuzzybaffy]

Yea... I don't know. If the OP had trouble switching to a mechanical switch after using scissor switches (he just said admitted to that a couple of posts up from mine), I think he'll still have problems with Cherry MX switches. Because the switches still have key travel, and an actuation point of 2mm - I don't want to hear any of that "but you can ride the actuation point" nonsense, because I know in practice, in the heat of a gaming battle, it's almost impossible to do that.

I have both an MX Brown board and Topre board, and I couldn't tell that much of a difference in gaming "performance", really. But then again, I'm not playing fighting games - only Dota 2 (which is kind of spammy, and again, I have no problem with it on my Topre) and Diablo 3 for reference.

So... to me it seems he'll have the same problem regardless of whether it's a Cherry MX or Topre switch. But I may be wrong.

[Axollott]

You know I've always felt my old laptop scissor switches were great for fighting games because:

1. You know exactly where the actuation point is
2. The travel distance is very short

Its blasphemy on this forum but when I switched from the laptop keyboard to mechanical ones I was initially unable to do the same animation canceling as before.  It took me a couple of weeks to get used to the new timings. 

I also bought a windows xidewinder "gaming" keyboard before I knew about mechanical keyboard.  I'm completely unable to do any of the animation canceling on that keyboard no matter how much I practice.  So I do think the kind of keyboard matters for gaming but only in a narrow set of situations.  If you play FPS or RTS then its true it really doesn't matter.

You should try to make/buy an arcade button controller, under the buttons there are omron or huano microswitches. Yes, the very same ones used for mice main buttons. Very short actuation point, thousands of clicks lifetime and easily replaceable/available. You will have to replace/maintain the microswitches from time to time considering your usage but they are inexpensive and you'll even have replacements for when your mouse starts double clicking or feeling mushy. IDK if the djtechtools midi fighter is capable of sending key strokes but check it out. Its a 4x4 arcade button grid. There should be cheaper and more suitable options for your needs.

[fuzzybaffy]

 ^ Yea... if the OP did better with scissor switches and/or short-travel switches, then he should just get short-travel switches. Because, it seems to me, he'll have the same problems with Cherry MX switches as any Topre switches.

[DENO]

Hello,

I have both types of keyboard and I game alot.
my recommendation for you is to go with any Cherry MX linear switch with O-Ring on it. (or even double O-Ring it)
make sure you get the plated MX board and PBT keycaps.

but man I think you are over exaggerating, MX Cherry keyboard don't just broke and die... they just dont!
I imagine one has to be smashing the keyboard like an adhd kid for an extended period of non stop gaming session to even.....

oh well good luck

[Sencha]

Topre are great for gaming. If you like the feel of them.

[Altis]

You know I've always felt my old laptop scissor switches were great for fighting games because:

1. You know exactly where the actuation point is
2. The travel distance is very short

Its blasphemy on this forum but when I switched from the laptop keyboard to mechanical ones I was initially unable to do the same animation canceling as before.  It took me a couple of weeks to get used to the new timings. 

I also bought a windows xidewinder "gaming" keyboard before I knew about mechanical keyboard.  I'm completely unable to do any of the animation canceling on that keyboard no matter how much I practice.  So I do think the kind of keyboard matters for gaming but only in a narrow set of situations.  If you play FPS or RTS then its true it really doesn't matter.

I actually really like gaming with the Apple aluminum keyboard (FPS like CS:GO). I've been thinking of getting a Lenovo USB keyboard that's basically just an external version of their really good laptop keyboards. Short travel, light enough, and very tactile. Works very well.


As for OP, if you're just mashing the same small cluster of buttons around, you could try remapping the keys to redistribute the wear. I think that the rubber domes of the Topre boards would get somewhat mushy and just feel different than the other keys, but they should still work as they're capacitive.

If the keyboard feel isn't that important to you for those gaming sessions, just go down to the thrift shop and buy a used keyboard for like $3 every few months when you've worn it out, and save the premium stuff for less abusive tasks.