On VW debacle, a scandal, or a plan to deceive.

[ideus]

"A culture focused on entirely on quarterly earnings will never be anything other than an every man for himself rat race." Lisa Mc Leod wrote for Forbes on the VW so called, scandal. She said that scandal is a CEO affair, this problem, instead, was an intentional plan to deceive.

What do you think?

[fohat.digs]

I am deeply disappointed because of the VW union/Chattanooga scenario a few months ago.

Idiot Tennessee lawmakers (disclosure: I was born and raised in Tennessee) wanted to make a gigantic fight about keeping a union out of the VW plant in Chattanooga, a union which VW was happy to accept, by the way.

This perfidy impeaches VWs credibility, and severely weakens their standing in political debates.

[njbair]

"A culture focused on entirely on quarterly earnings will never be anything other than an every man for himself rat race." Lisa Mc Leod wrote for Forbes on the VW so called, scandal. She said that scandal is a CEO affair, this problem, instead, was an intentional plan to deceive.

What do you think?

If I owned a VW right now, I would be a satisfied customer who received a high-performance vehicle which passes an emissions check.

The really interesting thing to me is, how will the govt handle this? Will VW owners still be required to have the checks done? It's clearly a futile exercise. Will the govt try and force VW to exercise a mandatory recall to update the software?

[RickyJ]

To get diesel emissions down, they'd have to use more fuel and urea and end up with less power and efficiency, and have even higher maintenance costs.  Consumers want the power and efficiency.  Salespeople push diesels to people that are better off with gas, just to make themselves more commission.  VW ****ed up in how they tried to meet emissions testing while still getting the power/efficiency that the consumers demand.

I've also wondered if North American diesel emissions regulations got too far ahead of the diesel technology again, like when it happened in 2007.  Talking to a friend that runs a BMW shop, BMW has been starting to get looked at as well.  Next would be Benz, etc.

I'm a specialist mechanic at my parent's VW shop.  My younger sisters both have turbodiesel Jettas, my mom drives a TDI Jetta wagon, and my dad has an older turbodiesel Jetta and 1.9TD swapped Vanagon.

[tp4tissue]

This has far less to do with technology.

It has everything to do with Dynastic Rule.

Germans are falling behind, because their vertical integration coming out of WWII has lead to an invincible production dynasty that hinders CREATIVE-Innovations..

Anything that challenges the traditional formula in their design language is met with swift purge.


Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan.  It's not that they don't have the engineers or the technology.  An unchallenged industry simply does not bother with fostering new ideas.


Because of this lag...   they decided, crap,  we don't have competitive vehicles to meet the fashionable emission craze..   Think of how much money selling 6 million cars is.. each car has something like 4 zeros and a 1st place number between 2 and 4... 

If it waited in this time frame (5-10) years to finish innovation,   if would be billions of dollars behind in terms of sales..


they might not recover from something like that as the current developed economy continues to be saturated with cars..





 

[njbair]

This has far less to do with technology.

It has everything to do with Dynastic Rule.

Germans are falling behind, because their vertical integration coming out of WWII has lead to an invincible production dynasty that hinders CREATIVE-Innovations..

Anything that challenges the traditional formula in their design language is met with swift purge.


Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan.  It's not that they don't have the engineers or the technology.  An unchallenged industry simply does not bother with fostering new ideas.


Because of this lag...   they decided, crap,  we don't have competitive vehicles to meet the fashionable emission craze..   Think of how much money selling 6 million cars is.. each car has something like 4 zeros and a 1st place number between 2 and 4... 

If it waited in this time frame (5-10) years to finish innovation,   if would be billions of dollars behind in terms of sales..


they might not recover from something like that as the current developed economy continues to be saturated with cars..

They did innovate, though. They innovated the cheapest way to make a high-performance diesel vehicle which can pass an emissions test.

[baldgye]

It's sad how few people actually care, the damage they have done to our environment while lying about it is massive, but all anyone cares about is mpg and reliability. Makes me wonder if this place is actually worth trying to protect...

[tp4tissue]

It's sad how few people actually care, the damage they have done to our environment while lying about it is massive, but all anyone cares about is mpg and reliability. Makes me wonder if this place is actually worth trying to protect...

The damage is there, but it's not massive relative to Total exhaust as a whole....

[sth]

VW should recall and refund every one of these cars. if not a refund then a full replacement with a vehicle that does not have these issues.

at the VERY least.

[tp4tissue]

VW should recall and refund every one of these cars. if not a refund then a full replacement with a vehicle that does not have these issues.

at the VERY least.

They can't replace the vehicle ,, and realize they're INSURED ,, which means YOU GUYS will be paying ,, NOT THEM...

Debt is how wealth is created in this world..

[Oobly]

It's sad how few people actually care, the damage they have done to our environment while lying about it is massive, but all anyone cares about is mpg and reliability. Makes me wonder if this place is actually worth trying to protect...

Well... I don't know about that. NO_x reduces atmospheric methane, the most effective greenhouse gas, so it's helping to reduce global warming. Also helps produce more tropospheric ozone, so it's replenishing our depleted ozone layer. Of course there's also smog and acid rain, but isn't global warming the big thing right now?

Seriously, though, the regulations are very steep and very difficult to adhere to while also trying to reduce consumption and CO₂ emissions. If you run leaner, you use less fuel, put out less CO₂ and get more power, but burn hotter and produce more NO_x.

The car industry is about the only one even trying to meet the regulations. It was wrong for VW to do this, but on the other hand, I don't think the damage done is anywhere near so bad as it's made out to be. The shipping industry pushes out masses of NO_x, orders of magnitude greater than the car industry overall, let alone a few models of a single brand. The primary damage done in all this is to the stock price of the company.

They have been ordered to recall about 450,000 cars, but since what usually happens in a recall is the vehicle is returned to the factory, the defect is fixed and then returned to the owner, it's a bit hard to know what the owners will get in this case. I don't think they'd be happy with the cars returned simply with the "cheat" removed.

[R1N3]

Everything I see in the news seems like the most obvious "watch this hand.." trick

What do they not want us to see?










muh tinfoil

[DesignerNeil]

This is because a newer technology is already here that the car industry want the world to adopt - that is cheap and easy to manufacture, small, light, turbo charged petrol engines.   All those little diesels that people bought because of government scrappage schemes and tax incentives are going to be replaced by these little turbo petrols - likely with the help of scrappage schemes and tax incentives.  It is a situation caused by the need for perpetual growth, that requires perpetual consumption.  See VW/Audi FSI engines as an example of the early models tee'd up to replace them.

"Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan"

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?   USA cars are among the worst in the world - I thought everyone knew that.  They have nothing even approaching the quality of Audi / BMW / Mercedes / Aston Martin / McClaren / Bentley to name a few.  Toyota and Honda are great too, but the Korean cars are probably the biggest threat to German Engineering - but this is mostly a value thing and not to do with innovation.  I can't think of an American car that I would drive or that is held in the same regard as any of those I have mentioned above - enlighten me if you know of any.

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

[sth]

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

[ideus]

A problem of this magnitude strongly speaks about a huge underlying issue with worldwide industrial practices. It is very easy to localize the problem within a company, and industry or even a country; however, the brand could be changed and any other automaker could be there. Most car companies are now beginning internal audits to look inside and check if a potential problem, like this, or worst, is being growing within their organizations.

The problem is to run businesses with the focus on short term ROI and EBITDA and not on improving people lives.

VW former CEO stated that he wanted to take over Toyota, with the solely purpose to get the largest automaker company in the world. Any resemblance with the hegemonic goals of former totalitarian governments, that led the world into chaos and war, is mere coincidence.

[DesignerNeil]

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Show Image

Would be relevant if I had mentioned British cars or manufacturing which effectively don't exist anymore -  the Brits being bad at making things (which we are) says absolutely nothing about German/Japanese/Korean manufacturing v USA manufacturing.

[baldgye]

This is because a newer technology is already here that the car industry want the world to adopt - that is cheap and easy to manufacture, small, light, turbo charged petrol engines.   All those little diesels that people bought because of government scrappage schemes and tax incentives are going to be replaced by these little turbo petrols - likely with the help of scrappage schemes and tax incentives.  It is a situation caused by the need for perpetual growth, that requires perpetual consumption.  See VW/Audi FSI engines as an example of the early models tee'd up to replace them.

"Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan"

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?   USA cars are among the worst in the world - I thought everyone knew that.  They have nothing even approaching the quality of Audi / BMW / Mercedes / Aston Martin / McClaren / Bentley to name a few.  Toyota and Honda are great too, but the Korean cars are probably the biggest threat to German Engineering - but this is mostly a value thing and not to do with innovation.  I can't think of an American car that I would drive or that is held in the same regard as any of those I have mentioned above - enlighten me if you know of any.

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Ford?

[Oobly]

This is because a newer technology is already here that the car industry want the world to adopt - that is cheap and easy to manufacture, small, light, turbo charged petrol engines.   All those little diesels that people bought because of government scrappage schemes and tax incentives are going to be replaced by these little turbo petrols - likely with the help of scrappage schemes and tax incentives.  It is a situation caused by the need for perpetual growth, that requires perpetual consumption.  See VW/Audi FSI engines as an example of the early models tee'd up to replace them.

"Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan"

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?   USA cars are among the worst in the world - I thought everyone knew that.  They have nothing even approaching the quality of Audi / BMW / Mercedes / Aston Martin / McClaren / Bentley to name a few.  Toyota and Honda are great too, but the Korean cars are probably the biggest threat to German Engineering - but this is mostly a value thing and not to do with innovation.  I can't think of an American car that I would drive or that is held in the same regard as any of those I have mentioned above - enlighten me if you know of any.

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Ford?

You mean like the good Fords (Focus RS, Fiesta ST, etc) that aren't designed or made in the US? Or the rubbish ones that are? Well, I guess the F150 is acceptable. All the best Fords have been designed and built primarily in Europe.

Oh and UK make this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

And Rolls Royce and Bentley still make cars in UK, despite foreign ownership. They're not too bad. Then there's Aston Martin, Jaguar, McLaren, Mini and Land Rover to name a few more. All of which are better than pretty much anything I've ever seen made in US in the last 20 years.

The best US car is the new Corvette, but nobody could claim it was actually well-made when compared to cars from Europe.

[FoxWolf1]

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Show Image

Would be relevant if I had mentioned British cars or manufacturing which effectively don't exist anymore -  the Brits being bad at making things (which we are) says absolutely nothing about German/Japanese/Korean manufacturing v USA manufacturing.

I had a British car once. It was very nice, but I have to admit that it was a little bit alarming when the engine decided to kill itself after 10,000 miles. A family member of mine also had a British car, which was also very nice, but would probably have been more suited to even colder or wetter regions (perhaps like its homeland in the UK), where its tendency to catch fire would have been an asset rather than a liability.

German cars aren't really what they used to be in terms of build quality-- my feeling is that the Japanese have overtaken them, at least if you get a model that's actually made IN Japan and not in America or Mexico. The same will probably be true of Korean cars, if it isn't already. The Germans have the reputation, thanks to their older models, and of course reputation influences perception, but, after a while, the shine does start to wear off. When my German car decides to strand me somewhere, it's generally because of a less dramatic problem than the ones my British car would suffer, but it makes up for it by stranding me in more interesting places...

[Oobly]

http://www.theweek.co.uk/jeremy-clarkson/62887/jeremy-clarkson-comes-to-the-defence-of-volkswagen

I'm with Jeremy on this one.

[baldgye]

This is because a newer technology is already here that the car industry want the world to adopt - that is cheap and easy to manufacture, small, light, turbo charged petrol engines.   All those little diesels that people bought because of government scrappage schemes and tax incentives are going to be replaced by these little turbo petrols - likely with the help of scrappage schemes and tax incentives.  It is a situation caused by the need for perpetual growth, that requires perpetual consumption.  See VW/Audi FSI engines as an example of the early models tee'd up to replace them.

"Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan"

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?   USA cars are among the worst in the world - I thought everyone knew that.  They have nothing even approaching the quality of Audi / BMW / Mercedes / Aston Martin / McClaren / Bentley to name a few.  Toyota and Honda are great too, but the Korean cars are probably the biggest threat to German Engineering - but this is mostly a value thing and not to do with innovation.  I can't think of an American car that I would drive or that is held in the same regard as any of those I have mentioned above - enlighten me if you know of any.

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Ford?

You mean like the good Fords (Focus RS, Fiesta ST, etc) that aren't designed or made in the US? Or the rubbish ones that are? Well, I guess the F150 is acceptable. All the best Fords have been designed and built primarily in Europe.

Oh and UK make this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

And Rolls Royce and Bentley still make cars in UK, despite foreign ownership. They're not too bad. Then there's Aston Martin, Jaguar, McLaren, Mini and Land Rover to name a few more. All of which are better than pretty much anything I've ever seen made in US in the last 20 years.

The best US car is the new Corvette, but nobody could claim it was actually well-made when compared to cars from Europe.

Who physically made and designed them isn't important. Apple's stuff is deigned by an English bloke and made by Chinese slaves, doesn't stop Apple products from being American.
Ford is an American company, with there success and funding brilliant cars like the Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta and so on wouldn't have been designed, made or sold anywhere.

[ideus]

This is because a newer technology is already here that the car industry want the world to adopt - that is cheap and easy to manufacture, small, light, turbo charged petrol engines.   All those little diesels that people bought because of government scrappage schemes and tax incentives are going to be replaced by these little turbo petrols - likely with the help of scrappage schemes and tax incentives.  It is a situation caused by the need for perpetual growth, that requires perpetual consumption.  See VW/Audi FSI engines as an example of the early models tee'd up to replace them.

"Because of this,  their industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan"

Did you keep a straight face when you typed that?   USA cars are among the worst in the world - I thought everyone knew that.  They have nothing even approaching the quality of Audi / BMW / Mercedes / Aston Martin / McClaren / Bentley to name a few.  Toyota and Honda are great too, but the Korean cars are probably the biggest threat to German Engineering - but this is mostly a value thing and not to do with innovation.  I can't think of an American car that I would drive or that is held in the same regard as any of those I have mentioned above - enlighten me if you know of any.

So far my experience of American keyboards has been similar to that of their cars (I am thinking of you DAS and Corsair), and not a patch on Japanese, Korean or German engineered devices.

Ford?

You mean like the good Fords (Focus RS, Fiesta ST, etc) that aren't designed or made in the US? Or the rubbish ones that are? Well, I guess the F150 is acceptable. All the best Fords have been designed and built primarily in Europe.

Oh and UK make this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Atom

And Rolls Royce and Bentley still make cars in UK, despite foreign ownership. They're not too bad. Then there's Aston Martin, Jaguar, McLaren, Mini and Land Rover to name a few more. All of which are better than pretty much anything I've ever seen made in US in the last 20 years.

The best US car is the new Corvette, but nobody could claim it was actually well-made when compared to cars from Europe.

Who physically made and designed them isn't important. Apple's stuff is deigned by an English bloke and made by Chinese slaves, doesn't stop Apple products from being American.
Ford is an American company, with there success and funding brilliant cars like the Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta and so on wouldn't have been designed, made or sold anywhere.

The two focus we drive daily work like charm. One even ate a broken spark plug electrode, with no issues whatsoever. I cannot say the same about the three different Jettas I owned several years ago. They had the tendency to damage their sensors all around the engine, oxygen, mass, air, temperature, just nightmares.

[baldgye]

My current and Focus's have also been and continue to be brilliant. One of the best driving cars on the market.

[osi]

Everything I see in the news seems like the most obvious "watch this hand.." trick

What do they not want us to see?










muh tinfoil

TPP

[baldgye]

Everything I see in the news seems like the most obvious "watch this hand.." trick

What do they not want us to see?










muh tinfoil

TPP

The Phantom Pain?!









Eyes on Kazuhira

[osi]

Everything I see in the news seems like the most obvious "watch this hand.." trick

What do they not want us to see?










muh tinfoil

TPP

The Phantom Pain?!









Eyes on Kazuhira

close but no - The Trans-Pacific Partnership

[baldgye]

The only reason this came about is because of countries like the UK helping the car manufacturers to only do in house in lab testing and let them regulate themselves, because that's always resulted in the best end result...

Also TPP doesn't involve Europe

[osi]

The only reason this came about is because of countries like the UK helping the car manufacturers to only do in house in lab testing and let them regulate themselves, because that's always resulted in the best end result...

Also TPP doesn't involve Europe

This is true - but hey, look at this pope over here.

[DesignerNeil]

My current and Focus's have also been and continue to be brilliant. One of the best driving cars on the market.

A focus is Logitech keyboard at best - cheap and cheerful and does the job.  But just open the door and close it again, and then do the same to Toyota, Kia, Honda, VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Mercedes, BMW etc, and then get back to me.

My older car is my fav - a pre Ford era Volvo V70 T5 - the one that Ford use the engine from in their TOP END RS and ST range.  Ask anyone who has owned a Volvo pre and Post Ford era what happened to build and comfort when the Americans came in.

[baldgye]

My current and Focus's have also been and continue to be brilliant. One of the best driving cars on the market.

A focus is Logitech keyboard at best - cheap and cheerful and does the job. 

Bull****, but that's the joy of opinions, we both have conflicting views and yet, we are both right.

[DesignerNeil]

My current and Focus's have also been and continue to be brilliant. One of the best driving cars on the market.

A focus is Logitech keyboard at best - cheap and cheerful and does the job. 

Bull****, but that's the joy of opinions, we both have conflicting views and yet, we are both right.

Well yes, opinions are like arseholes.... everyone's got one. 

But its not like I haven't owned fords I have - three in fact.  A Fiesta 1.3l, a Focus TDCI Zetec and a Mondeo St220.  It's not that I didn't like them, but they are not in the same class as German cars nor Volvo (nor are they supposed to be), or most Japanese cars either. They are better than Vauxhaul, Renault, Pug, Fiat and Nissan etc -all of which I have owned.  Been driving 23 years and have owned 15 cars in that time (some of these were my wife's).  I don't do brand loyalty so I have driven most makes of car in that time.  Top is the 04 Volvo v70, then then late 90's Corolla.  Worst was the 07 Mondeo and a Pug 307.

Anyway corporations have no loyalty to any country and see themselves as global. Brand loyalty is retarded anyway, but brand loyalty based on patriotism is really, really retarded.

[Oobly]

The USA Focus is not the same as the European one... just FYI.

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I do challenge you to name a GOOD Amerian car made after 1985. Even if you can, is it better than the best made in Germany?

[ideus]

The USA Focus is not the same as the European one... just FYI.

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I do challenge you to name a GOOD Amerian car made after 1985. Even if you can, is it better than the best made in Germany?

Right! I have the Euro-version.

[baldgye]

The USA Focus is not the same as the European one... just FYI.

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I do challenge you to name a GOOD Amerian car made after 1985. Even if you can, is it better than the best made in Germany?

For Focus, better than a BMW 1 series

[katushkin]

The USA Focus is not the same as the European one... just FYI.

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I do challenge you to name a GOOD Amerian car made after 1985. Even if you can, is it better than the best made in Germany?

For Focus, better than a BMW 1 series

There are a great many cars better than the 1 series...

Here I am with my 25 year old VW, probably putting out the same amount of emissions as these faked VWs as standard

[HoffmanMyster]

Been driving 23 years and have owned 15 cars in that time (some of these were my wife's).

This hardly helps your argument.  How on earth could you have enough exposure to these vehicles when you change them every other year?

[baldgye]

I had a Audi A3 3.2 Quatro, despite being rapid as **** it was horrible to drive and constantly had things breaking and going wrong with it...

[Oobly]

The USA Focus is not the same as the European one... just FYI.

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I do challenge you to name a GOOD Amerian car made after 1985. Even if you can, is it better than the best made in Germany?

For Focus, better than a BMW 1 series

So, this:



Is better than this?



Don't think so.

IMHO, this is the very best US has to offer:



But it pales into insignificance when compared to the best Germany has to offer:



Especially when it comes to innovation, which I believe is the issue under discussion.

[baldgye]

Impressed you managed to pick pics of neither car I was talking about. But if you'd driven either car you might have some idea. Also the x5 and x3 are god awful cars.

The Germans make some good stuff, but not everything they do is great. And that Porsche is nice, but I'd take a Zonda or Ferrari over it any day of the week.

[baldgye]

But remind me again why this VW debate became about some retarded battle of Europe Vs America in cars? Remind me again why that's relevant to anything?

If anything we should be greatful that the yanks decided to ****ing pin VW to the cross for cheating and lying about the products they sell to consumers, because the EU and it's member states did a whole lot of ****ing nothing about it.
I'm sure if there are any older members on here they will know better than most that I'm not americanphile...

[Oobly]

Anyhow, VW are being punished way too hard for this. 90% of modern diesel cars sold in EU exceed the Euro 6 limit in real world conditions, even though they pass the lab tests. VW was doing the same as all the other manufacturers, they all cheat on the lab tests by various means. One reason is that it's almost impossible to meet the standards when you're focussed on also reducing consumption and CO₂ emissions. It's a balancing act, but the legislators are requiring EVERYTHING to be lower at the same time. This is just not possible with normal engine designs, despite adding turbos, EGR and innovative waste regulation and filtering systems.

I find it odd how BMW has been mentioned in the press, since they're probably the closest of all manufacturers to actually meeting the regulations. Volvo and Renault are much worse offenders, and yes, they're worse than VW...

As I said, I'm with Clarkson on this one: "Put simply, then, Volkswagen looked at a set of arbitrary figures that had been dreamt up by a bunch of ill-informed, woolly-headed government officials and chose to ignore them. We are not talking about thalidomide here. Or Bhopal. It’s just a bit of good-natured rule-bending, and we all do that."

Don't get me wrong, I don't think NO_x emissions should be ignored, just that VW is being too aggressively targeted for it and the company will suffer for this far more than they should. I've known diesels are not "cleaner" than petrol engines since... well, always, really. The new turbo diesels may have had less smoke, but they weren't much cleaner. You can't ignore the physics and chemistry of compression ignition engines. The decision to switch to CO₂ emissions and lower taxes on diesel was really stupid, IMHO. Hopefully this leads to a reduction in taxes on petrol cars instead eventually. A nice litte TSI is a darn sight better than a TDI both to drive and in terms of cleanliness.

@baldgye, the discussion started over TP's comment that Germany's car "industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan". And your "Ford?" response meant you were saying Ford made good American cars. They don't. The model in the picture is an American model Ford Focus. It's not the same as what you were thinking of because that's the European model. I agree, European Fords are good.

[baldgye]

@baldgye, the discussion started over TP's comment that Germany's car "industry can not innovate at the rate of the other two makers USA/ Japan". And your "Ford?" response meant you were saying Ford made good American cars. They don't. The model in the picture is an American model Ford Focus. It's not the same as what you were thinking of because that's the European model. I agree, European Fords are good.

Who physically made and designed them isn't important. Apple's stuff is deigned by an English bloke and made by Chinese slaves, doesn't stop Apple products from being American.
Ford is an American company, with there success and funding brilliant cars like the Focus, Mondeo, Fiesta and so on wouldn't have been designed, made or sold anywhere.

idk why you find it so hard to understand, Ford in an American company, not a European company.

[DesignerNeil]

Been driving 23 years and have owned 15 cars in that time (some of these were my wife's).

This hardly helps your argument.  How on earth could you have enough exposure to these vehicles when you change them every other year?

"(Some of these were my wife's)". So I have been married for 15 years, and living with her for a total of 21 years, we have always owned 2 cars for work reasons.  Some of those cars, like the Pug and a Fait Uno we had in 1994, were terrible and were both kept for less than 6 months.  Another (Toyota Carina) was written off in an accident in its first months of ownership.  I had both a Mark 1 & Mark 2 VW Golf GTI for some time as projects on classic insurance (3rd cars).  So you can then say WE (adults x 2) owned 18 cars in 22 years. That's nine each - average time then becomes around 2.3 years - I believe the norm for working people (at least in the UK) is 3 years.  I can decide if I like a car in a month, I can learn all sorts about it in 6 months, and by the time a year has went by I know if I will ever buy another. 

I can't see what is so hard to understand about that? Especially on this form, where some people change keyboards like they change their socks, you find it odd that my average ownership of cars is 2.3 years and believe that isn't long enough to evaluate them?  Is that what you are saying?

[DesignerNeil]

Impressed you managed to pick pics of neither car I was talking about. But if you'd driven either car you might have some idea. Also the x5 and x3 are god awful cars.

The Germans make some good stuff, but not everything they do is great. And that Porsche is nice, but I'd take a Zonda or Ferrari over it any day of the week.

Italy is also in Europe!

The point is comparing American or British cars for that matter to Germany is a bit silly.  Like I said before, only Japanese are in that bracket and the Korean models are the main threat. German car manufacturers are not looking to America in wonder at the innovation.

Also.  The Focus is the most generic mass produced everymans car on the road is not what I would expect a mechy keyboard lover to revere....doesn't add up.  Its popular because its good value, cheap to fix with generic parts and well marketed - not because its a marvel of engineering and innovation.

[baldgye]

I wish I could find the link I had years ago about the development of the Focus and how Ford spent Billions researching to make sure the Focus had the perfect seating and driving positing as well as great handling etc etc... but I can't, partly due to being at work, but I found this link which has a quote which mentions it briefly.


And seeing as no one actually cares about the topic, I don't see why it's wrong to prefer a car that has all those qualities and that drives great, compared to the myriad of Merc, BMW's and Audi's that drive like **** and that cost 4x to repair because of the badge on the car.
I can't comment on the new Focus's or the brand new BMW's, Audi's or Merc's because I haven't driven them but from what I have driven, they aren't too dissimilar from any 'generic' 'European' Ford until you start paying stupid money at which point I'd rather have a GT-R anyway...

[iri]

Anyway, a Lada Riva is more reliable than almost any other car on the planet, but I wouldn't say it's a good one.

I definitely agree with you on the latter. It's not a good car. It's pretty ****. And also it breaks if you sneeze.

[tp4tissue]

Us poor people arguing about things we may not ever be able to afford..

HIGHLY productive..

[katushkin]

If you are talking about innovation, you only have to look as far as Porsche to see that the Germans are not the be all and end all of innovation. And as for America, there is a small car company based out in California, don't know if you've heard of them, called Tesla? Set up by some rich guy, they specialise in electric cars and have been revolutionising the industry and bringing electric cars to the masses or whatever... Ford used to own Aston Martin, and pretty much turned it from a distinctly average car brand into a world-renowned luxury car manufacturer, propelling it into the international limelight, with the advertising and marketing know-how that only Ford knows. They also turned Jaguar from an awful, poorly made semi-luxury brand into one of the prides of Britain.

Innovation comes in many forms, and I think it is incredibly short-sighted to think that America isn't and Germany/Japan is and that's the end of it.

This is not about innovation. This is about cheating the system for a reason I don't have the foggiest (lol) idea what it is. VAG's diesel engines don't need anything extra. All in all, they are pretty fantastic engines. Whatever they sought to gain from this blanket of lies was definitely not worth the risk, even if they have just gone to the top of the leaderboard as the world's largest car maker. They didn't need to do anything to improve their brand, it pretty much does it on it's own.

[ideus]

You guys are comparing cars of very different price ranges. In general, European cars are in an upper segment.

Apples to oranges? well, we can discuss their differences for ages, the conclusion is quite simple, they are not the same.

[HoffmanMyster]

Been driving 23 years and have owned 15 cars in that time (some of these were my wife's).

This hardly helps your argument.  How on earth could you have enough exposure to these vehicles when you change them every other year?

"(Some of these were my wife's)". So I have been married for 15 years, and living with her for a total of 21 years, we have always owned 2 cars for work reasons.  Some of those cars, like the Pug and a Fait Uno we had in 1994, were terrible and were both kept for less than 6 months.  Another (Toyota Carina) was written off in an accident in its first months of ownership.  I had both a Mark 1 & Mark 2 VW Golf GTI for some time as projects on classic insurance (3rd cars).  So you can then say WE (adults x 2) owned 18 cars in 22 years. That's nine each - average time then becomes around 2.3 years - I believe the norm for working people (at least in the UK) is 3 years.  I can decide if I like a car in a month, I can learn all sorts about it in 6 months, and by the time a year has went by I know if I will ever buy another. 

I can't see what is so hard to understand about that? Especially on this form, where some people change keyboards like they change their socks, you find it odd that my average ownership of cars is 2.3 years and believe that isn't long enough to evaluate them?  Is that what you are saying?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.  I was under the impression this was a discussion about reliability / longterm performance, not "test drive" performance.  Sure, I can tell you if a car is zippy and fun to drive after 10 minutes.  That doesn't say anything about how well it's built.  And frankly, yes, 2.3 years (that was an awfully wordy response to correct my estimation by 0.3 years, btw) is not nearly long enough to make any conclusions about reliability.  Okay, maybe *some*.  Like how it performs after 2.3 years.  But IMO that's really not meaningful in a discussion about reliability of cars.  What car doesn't last 2.3 years?

But again if you're just talking about which cars are fun to drive, by all means carry on.