Author Topic: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)  (Read 129597 times)

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Offline romevi

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #400 on: Sun, 28 February 2016, 08:43:55 »
I really dislike USPS sometimes. My building has a mail room where I usually drop off packages, but this one I took to the post office directly thinking it'll get scanned and shipped right away.

It's like paying for quicker mail service doesn't matter; it's more like "eh, we'll send it when we feel like it."

Sorry, don't know why I'm getting worked up. I'm sure it'll ship just fine; just thought it would've shown as en route by now.

Offline Vittra

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #401 on: Sun, 28 February 2016, 09:00:52 »
Does USPS have deliveries windows that if failed to be met allow you to be reimbursed? Canada Post operates that way for certain shipment types.
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Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #402 on: Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:40:15 »
I hope. Because lately they have been missing their delivery windows a lot.
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #403 on: Sun, 28 February 2016, 13:46:20 »
I hope. Because lately they have been missing their delivery windows a lot.

I'm 1/3 in the past week or two for getting things delivered to me on time by USPS.  2-day priority has been 3-day and even 4-day!
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #404 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 16:59:26 »
Missed delivery!
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #405 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:25:54 »
Missed delivery!

Get your **** together BlueNalgene!
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #406 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:50:03 »
My deliveries always get missed.  I'll just have to go to the post office to pick it up tomorrow.

Offline romevi

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #407 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:57:13 »
Wellp. Looks like I got all flustered for nothing. USPS was on time, just their online tracking sucked.

It's all on you, BlueNalgene!  :))

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #408 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 18:40:00 »
told you, usps is just crap lately
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #409 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 20:43:54 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #410 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 20:45:31 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #411 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 20:48:14 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #412 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 20:50:49 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #413 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 21:05:40 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

All those sad MX artisans with no place to go :(

I guess you can send that MX Interstellar Green to me, I'll take him in and raise him as my own
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #414 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 21:10:12 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

All those sad MX artisans with no place to go :(

I guess you can send that MX Interstellar Green to me, I'll take him in and raise him as my own

I still have my QFR-i, and two MX number pads to put them on.

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #415 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 21:12:32 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

All those sad MX artisans with no place to go :(

I guess you can send that MX Interstellar Green to me, I'll take him in and raise him as my own

I still have my QFR-i, and two MX number pads to put them on.

You should just get a few Novatouch sliders, that BBv2 deserves it  :thumb:
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #416 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 21:14:52 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

All those sad MX artisans with no place to go :(

I guess you can send that MX Interstellar Green to me, I'll take him in and raise him as my own

I still have my QFR-i, and two MX number pads to put them on.

You should just get a few Novatouch sliders, that BBv2 deserves it  :thumb:

BroCaps don't fit on sliders. I'd have to cut down the cap's stems.

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #417 on: Mon, 29 February 2016, 21:30:21 »
told you, usps is just crap lately

I sent something out today at 10AM with 2-day shipping and the lady just straight up told me it was really gonna take 3 days.

Pays for 2-day shipping, takes 3-days. First-world problems.  :))

Honestly, I'm surprised it's that's fast. The logistics of mail is amazing. I just wish they'd rename it to 3-day shipping so the few times it's actually 2-day you can be pleasantly surprised.

I like your style, keeping expectations low so you're never disappointed! :D

Haha, I'm a realist.

I've also bought a second HHKB.  :)

All those sad MX artisans with no place to go :(

I guess you can send that MX Interstellar Green to me, I'll take him in and raise him as my own

I still have my QFR-i, and two MX number pads to put them on.

You should just get a few Novatouch sliders, that BBv2 deserves it  :thumb:

BroCaps don't fit on sliders. I'd have to cut down the cap's stems.

RIP
Duck Blackbird - Gaterstotles /// O'Mira - V Blacks /// LZ GH v2 - V Clears /// Leopold FC980C /// TGR Jane CE v2 (unbuilt) /// Lin Dolphin 2021 (unbuilt)

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #418 on: Tue, 01 March 2016, 10:50:49 »
Board received.  I've typed on it a bit, and I wrote a few paragraphs as a review so far.  More to come.

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #419 on: Tue, 01 March 2016, 13:32:23 »
OuO
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Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #420 on: Tue, 01 March 2016, 22:48:46 »
HHKB Pro 2 Review.

Taking the unit out of the box, the first thing I noticed about the keyboard is how light it was.  After using custom 60% keyboards with aluminum cases, Model M's, and my weighted KUL TKL, this is a bit of a shock.  The case has a plastic thickness and feel reminiscent of early Sega controllers.  The sealed enclosure with the rounded corners is quite attractive though.  On the back there is a little compartment with what appears to be a battery door.  Opening it up I found the select switches that control some of the functions.  The caps are black text on smoke plastic.  This keeps the board consistent with the clean feel of the smooth exterior.  It appears that the space bar is installed incorrectly however.  I will leave it be for the time being.

Plugging in the board was quick and simple.  There was no lag finding the hardware drivers like I experience with some of my customs or modified boards.  Typing on it is a very shocking experience.  Before I even have a chance to pay attention to the switches, I notice the layout I am unaccustomed to.  I instantly have issue finding the backspace, instead repeatedly entering a single left quotation mark (`) each time I try to fix something.  After the first few lines of confusion an frustration, I was surprised by how easily I adjusted.  What surprises me even more is how much I like it.  I might have to reprogram my 60%.  Continuing to type, I pay more attention to the switches.  The "thwok" isn't as satisfying as I was lead to believe by the hype, but it is a decent sound.  Pressing on the keys, at this point, feels like pressing into mashed potatoes before popping bubble wrap.  It is nice, but nothing to write home about.  However, each keypress feels like I am moving the entire board slightly.  The low weight of the unit seems to have some downsides.  I sense that the underside toward posterior of the board does not have rubber feet while, and all of the traction of the board is from the front feet.  The upward force of the "thwok" in concert with any stiction of the keys with my fingers seems to bounce the back end of the board. 

Of more dire concern is the failure of some keys to register.  It seems that keys toward the middle of the board such as the g, h, and space bar occasionally refuse to register a keystroke.  Due to only trying this board which has been through the woes of the USPS, I can't tell if this is something that is a fault of the board, a fault of this individual unit, or a fault of my typing.  I bring up the faults in my typing because these switches do not seem to work like I am used to.  Often, as I get my typing momentum going, I will fail to press a key entirely.  I feel as if I have to strain to bottom out these switches to incur activation.  This is especially noticable when I type the same letter in succession (e.g. tt cc and ss in those last few words).  The second keypress consistently fail to register unless I take a moment to pause between presses to complete the upstroke.  This limits the speed at which I type, and breaks my concentration from what I am trying to convey.  While I could adjust to this over time, it seems detrimental to my performance.

I'm going to take a break and let things sit for a bit.  I will return to my review later, after I return from work.  This break is welcome, because my fingers are actually quite tired from using this board - a surprise since I use keys with 60+g activation force regularly.
---------------------------------------------
My cat investigated the HHKB.  His opinion seems to be that it smells funny and probably is dangerous.
---------------------------------------------
Ok, Round 2.  This is review is starting at 6 PM, the other stuff was around 9:30-10 AM.  Let's do a little light browsing with the board.  I'm going to open up chrome and **** around for a bit.

...

After playing with this a bit, I've noticed a few things.  I browse things with the arrow keys and pgup/dn more than most probably do, so the function key is important here.  The location of the function key is fine by me, but the keys on the function layer are not.  My left hand is dominant, so performing tasks with the right hand takes a bit more focus.  The requirement to hold the Fn key with my pinky finger while simultaneously using the unintuitive arrow pad is difficult.  While I think I could get used to the layout of just the arrow keys, the page buttons and the home/end seem to baffle me.  Not that I ever use it, but what is the point of including a scroll lock without a number pad?  I don't think I would ever use the math keys to the left of the home/end keys.  They are too far away while using the function button.

I'm going to do some work in Excel now.

...

That was painful.  This keyboard is NOT made for spreadsheet work.  I mean sure, the control button placement is ok - I don't hate it.  However, the odd button combos you need to hold for advanced maneuvering (e.g. shift+ctrl+down) is more strain than it is worth.  I might as well use my mouse and just scroll down the entire sheet.  Also, I need to stay away from the left side of the board while holding the function layer, I kept turning down my music while trying to move down columns. 

On one hand I want to fault the board for all of these little problems.  If I wanted to have to relearn my entire typing skill, I would switch to DVORAK and be done with it.  while the blacked out caps may suggest it is made for someone with touch typing muscle memory, it also rails against those honed skills by asking the user to learn things that seem unnatural.  However, what is to say a keyboard can't have a learning curve?  There is no reason that these little changes might improve my abilities to slap glyphs onto a text file.  From the standpoint of something designed by a cloistered programmer in the mid 90's, these changes are good enough.  There are people out there that think H J K L are perfectly reasonable arrow keys, and maybe me not being among them is of mere preference rather than a design flaw.

Now that I have spent some more time with it, I think I like the switches a bit more.  While they still feel like rubber to me, I think the thwok is starting to grow on me.  I can feel the tactile response more, and it is good.  But, not all is well.  Something is still wrong with the keypresses not registering properly.  I still occasionally drop letters from not bottoming out properly, and consecutive letters still require extra attention to produce properly.  My keyboard at home (Cherry MX Clears) sits 11.5" away from the edge of my desk and I sit with my hips about 5" away from the lip of the desk.  Use of the HHKB seems to work best 7.5" away fom the desk lip with my hips 8" away from the edge.  Now I'm no ergonomics nut, but the measurements are there for posterity. 

Ok. I expect this is going to go poorly but I'm going to fire up an FPS and try gaming with this thing.

...

That went better than expected.  I decided to pull out Borderlands Pre-Sequel.  I haven't played any FPS's in a while, so I wasn't top notch.  But I was expecting a load of problems playing on a board which I a not accustomed to with an odd layout.  Outside of some control key issues, it went pretty well.  Note that I picked a game that was 60% friendly.  Something like Binding of Isaac which requires the use of WASD in addition to arrow keys would be nigh impossible, but that is a known limitation of all 60% layout boards.  I also chose not to do a multiplayer game like TF2 (2000+ hours ftw) since I have odd binds all over the place making it difficult on a 60%.  I don't feel like I dropped keys or stuttered while playing like I do while typing.  I should note that the finger strain has returned.

---------------------------------------------

Now that I've had a day with this thing, have I been converted to the church of Topretology?  Let me break the review into two parts: one for the HHKB and one for the topre switches, then I will sum it all up.

The HHKB is a cute little package.  It comes wrapped in trappings of something that would evoke nostalgia in the millennial set.  The caps have a nice feel, and the dark color scheme is very aesthetically pleasing.  It feels very much like a toy--and I don't view that as a bad thing.  It fills a niche for something which you can buy new, comes prepackaged, and has decent quality.  This is a product that would fit well with someone who likes having something that is, in the owner's opinion, the best of the best.  There is no assembly required.  Customization seems limited to cap replacement, as the construction of the case, with the internal clasps and battery door on the back, is probably not designed to be mixed and matched.  There are plenty of artisan caps out there to make it your own.  As with sushi and esoteric timepieces, the Japanese excel at producing something which has pre-packaged uniqueness.  I have personal problems with the layout, but that simply means it wasn't designed for me.  It was designed for those who adapt to the new rather than cobble together their own or resort to the primitive standards.

My opinion on Topre switches is not so kind.  I did not enjoy my feeling of oneness with cupped rubber.  As my strained fingers continue to write this, struggling over the dropped characters, I long for something that works properly.  While the sound is nice as the keys thwok down, the mushiness of the rubber domes cannot be overlooked.  While some may find this to be akin to typing on clouds, I find it to be closer to typing on lard.  The delay while resetting the keys from bottoming out requires extra attention to be paid to the keypresses.  These switches are not all they are cracked up to be.

Coming out of this lukewarm review, I ask myself why these boards are considered to be the end-game for so many aficionados.  True, typing on one is not really comparable to any other switch on the market, but that may be for the best.  The memetic reverence for the Topre switch and the HHKB seems like it must be put on.  Perhaps it is only popular because someone else has said it was so.  If I was an inexperienced user coming from only knowing the black, red, blue, and brown Cherry offerings, I might find this newness intriguing.  But from my perspective, I feel like I would be changing myself to satisfy the switches.  There are better typing experiences out there, and I think my time would be better spent pursuing those. 

I will say that I came into this with an open mind.  The last thing I want to convey is that I came into this with some sort of chip on my shoulder or preconceived notion about Topre.  My intention was to write this free-flowing review with as much candor and honesty as possible.  I'm very thankful that demik was kind enough to risk one of his precious babies like this.  I'm far away from the epicenters of keyboard thrills, thus I can't really try an expensive board like this at a meetup.  Though all I have are Alps and Cherry artisan caps, I'm going to include one in the package as a gift to demik as a token of my appreciation for his generosity. 

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #421 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 00:24:42 »
that.. was an awesome review. a lot more in depth than just typing on 10fastfingers for a bit. i appreciate it very much, it'll give others another side of my very bias views (i regret nothing, i love this board)

i would like to see what you think after you've used it for a bit longer, maybe some of the stuff you didn't like about it will grow on you.

also, im wondering that what issue you had about letters not registering is all about. i've never had that problem with either that board or my type s.

one thing i will agree on is, i also find the board to be very light. im usually a fan of heavy peripherals and it's my only gripe against it. but ever since putting a mat under it, i haven't had a problem with it sliding around anymore.

for the record, my favorite switch isn't even what the hhkb has (RF 55g ftw). i just feel like the layout makes up for it and hopefully one day i'll get to see if the 55g dome mod is worth it.
No, he’s not around. How that sound to ya? Jot it down.

Offline romevi

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #422 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 00:44:11 »
The weight was definitely what bugged me most. The thock also didn't seem to be as pronounced as my Realforce, but that may be due to the lighter force required.

I do a bit of spreadsheet work, and I too couldn't bear to use the HHKB. The thing is that, as you mentioned, a lot of the Fn keys are done with the right hand, whereas the left hand is almost unused. I'm sure this can be remedied with hasu's mod; on my custom MX 60%, I have all my Fn layer presses done with my left hand, which is far more comfortable.
I had trouble with the Backspace at first, but surprisingly became comfortable with it. I may have this layout on a few of my next custom boards.

I'm not sure about the unregistered presses either. I don't recall having that issue, and I packed it the same way I received it.
Are you thocking all the way down?

I plan on getting the Type-S this year and, with a few modifications, I foresee it being one of my most-used boards.

Edit:
Forgot to mention that I also found it to be a bit mushy, which is something my Realforce is not. Well, not as much.
I wonder what it is... The lighter keys? The plastic case?
« Last Edit: Wed, 02 March 2016, 00:46:42 by romevi »

Offline Bucake

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #423 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 06:13:44 »
Forgot to mention that I also found it to be a bit mushy, which is something my Realforce is not. Well, not as much.
I wonder what it is... The lighter keys? The plastic case?

i would assume it's both the plastic mount and the lighter keys. this mushy experience was way worse on the lighter keys on the variable version.
in comparison, the 55g plate-mount feels very snappy indeed
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline keshley

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #424 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 07:09:51 »
I haven't done any research into this, so I may be talking out of my ass...

In boxing, missing a punch takes more energy than connecting. If people are trying to type on a HHKB without bottoming out, I wonder if its the same principle as boxing? With cherry, you can type without bottoming out without fatiguing your fingers, but the resistance on a Topre board is completely different. It also pretty much begs to be bottomed out. I've never had problems with fatigue on my HHKB, and I type heavier on it naturally then I do on other boards. Not something I do consciously, but Topre rewards you for bottoming out, IMO.

Perhaps something to consider when trying out the HHKB tour. I'm not saying hammer the keys, but the super light typing some people like to do on Cherry probably won't produce the same results.
  
HHKB Pro 2       Pok3r

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #425 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 07:34:45 »
Edit:
Forgot to mention that I also found it to be a bit mushy, which is something my Realforce is not. Well, not as much.
I wonder what it is... The lighter keys? The plastic case?

The rubber domes it's using! Muhahahaha.

Also, I may be starting another one of these tours soonTM.

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #426 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:34:13 »
Wow, very in-depth review BlueNalgene!  I felt like I would've liked the HHKB much better if I was doing something that required me to bring my keyboard with me, where the low weight and rather quiet nature would be beneficial, but I only have 3 places where I use my keyboards and can't justify giving up the very comfortable keyboards I have in those places.  I wouldn't at all mind swapping out my work keyboard with something like a RF104U, especially if I could snag one with 55g, but otherwise I probably won't buy a Topre board.

that.. was an awesome review. a lot more in depth than just typing on 10fastfingers for a bit. i appreciate it very much, it'll give others another side of my very bias views (i regret nothing, i love this board)

i would like to see what you think after you've used it for a bit longer, maybe some of the stuff you didn't like about it will grow on you.

also, im wondering that what issue you had about letters not registering is all about. i've never had that problem with either that board or my type s.

one thing i will agree on is, i also find the board to be very light. im usually a fan of heavy peripherals and it's my only gripe against it. but ever since putting a mat under it, i haven't had a problem with it sliding around anymore.

for the record, my favorite switch isn't even what the hhkb has (RF 55g ftw). i just feel like the layout makes up for it and hopefully one day i'll get to see if the 55g dome mod is worth it.

Is the only aftermarket case for the HHKB that really ugly red one? 
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Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #427 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:35:32 »
Is the only aftermarket case for the HHKB that really ugly red one?

Unfortunately so. I'd really like to have a different one.  :(

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #428 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:46:54 »
Is the only aftermarket case for the HHKB that really ugly red one?

Unfortunately so. I'd really like to have a different one.  :(

Can we blame Obama for that?  He's been getting off kinda easy lately
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Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #429 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:48:00 »
Is the only aftermarket case for the HHKB that really ugly red one?

Unfortunately so. I'd really like to have a different one.  :(

Can we blame Obama for that?  He's been getting off kinda easy lately

We should blame Obama and then make our own case, with blackjack! And hookers!

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #430 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:59:23 »
Yup. George locked the thread about him making one. So, we are assed out.
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Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #431 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 09:05:29 »
Yup. George locked the thread about him making one. So, we are assed out.

Classic George
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #432 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 18:05:51 »
My opinion on Topre switches is not so kind.  I did not enjoy my feeling of oneness with cupped rubber.  As my strained fingers continue to write this, struggling over the dropped characters, I long for something that works properly.  While the sound is nice as the keys thwok down, the mushiness of the rubber domes cannot be overlooked.  While some may find this to be akin to typing on clouds, I find it to be closer to typing on lard.  The delay while resetting the keys from bottoming out requires extra attention to be paid to the keypresses.  These switches are not all they are cracked up to be.

Coming out of this lukewarm review, I ask myself why these boards are considered to be the end-game for so many aficionados.  True, typing on one is not really comparable to any other switch on the market, but that may be for the best.  The memetic reverence for the Topre switch and the HHKB seems like it must be put on.  Perhaps it is only popular because someone else has said it was so.  If I was an inexperienced user coming from only knowing the black, red, blue, and brown Cherry offerings, I might find this newness intriguing.  But from my perspective, I feel like I would be changing myself to satisfy the switches.  There are better typing experiences out there, and I think my time would be better spent pursuing those. 

For me, 55g (RF, not HHKB) is where it's at.  Also my HHKB Pro 1 is super snappy and feels like 55g, so that's great too.  But the HHKB is a little bit mushier IMO and in terms of representing what Topre can feel like is not the best representation.  I do enjoy it quite a bit though.

As for the layout, the arrow keys took me the longest to get used to but now they feel very natural.  The only hard part is pressing more than one arrow key at a time, depending on which keys you are hoping to press.  I'm sure it's *much* harder for some who is not right hand dominant, though.  I could go either way on the Ctrl placement, and backspace in HHKB location is now a must for me on all of my boards.

The weight has never bothered me, but I have two little feet that moose gave me on the back half of the board, so it helps keep it in place.  I also use mine on a mousepad, which I'm sure helps.  I actually really like that it's so light, because it adds to the "simplicity" factor of it for me.  It's a very minimal board and the reduced weight only helps.  That said, I will definitely buy a metal case if/when it is released.  :))

Claiming Topre as "end game" for me has been an interesting process.  I still don't think it's the best switch (Model F, no doubt), but in terms of overall use and a balance of feel, noise, reliability, etc it's a very well-rounded switch IMO.  It's both familiar and novel.  There's just something very...fulfilling...about typing on it.

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #433 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:00:49 »
houf will agree with me, but when it comes to the best out of the box experience.

55g RF wins it hands down. as much as i love my hhkb, to a total noob.. i will recommend a RF TKL 55g first. now you nerds, well, you can enjoy the greatness that is HHKB.
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Offline romevi

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #434 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:02:45 »
houf will agree with me, but when it comes to the best out of the box experience.

55g RF wins it hands down. as much as i love my hhkb, to a total noob.. i will recommend a RF TKL 55g first. now you nerds, well, you can enjoy the greatness that is HHKB.

You haven't done a 55g HHKB mod, right?

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #435 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:04:04 »
houf will agree with me, but when it comes to the best out of the box experience.

55g RF wins it hands down. as much as i love my hhkb, to a total noob.. i will recommend a RF TKL 55g first. now you nerds, well, you can enjoy the greatness that is HHKB.

You haven't done a 55g HHKB mod, right?

nope. kinda dont want to either. im afraid i'll hate it. and either hate my hhkb or hate 55g.

the switch is just so damn smooth on a rf board. not sure what it is.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #436 on: Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:08:28 »
houf will agree with me, but when it comes to the best out of the box experience.

55g RF wins it hands down.

 :thumb:

Offline begemotz

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #437 on: Thu, 03 March 2016, 18:23:12 »
In boxing, missing a punch takes more energy than connecting. If people are trying to type on a HHKB without bottoming out, I wonder if its the same principle as boxing?

Well I only received my HHKB today (first time on topre as well) but feels true to me.  I can say that at first I tried typing on it as I would MX clears or buckling springs and the board felt 'mushy' or 'loose' to me (Idk, those were the descriptors that came to mind as I free associated as I typed). Anyhow, fast forward a few hours once I got home and allowed myself to bottom-out and just type.. I am coming around to liking this board more and more. I do think that I can type faster on it than on the pok3r with clears although I havent done any attempt at controlled testing.

So while I am not part of the HHKB love tour (didnt have enough posts or time at GH) -- I did go out and get one.. and I am enjoying the experience so far... I think:)

Offline zeta

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #438 on: Thu, 03 March 2016, 21:31:12 »
2nd HHKB or 55g RF 87u? I like the HHKB form factor better but I've read that RF switches can feel slightly better.

Offline BlueNalgene

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #439 on: Thu, 03 March 2016, 23:07:01 »
My girlfriend just arrived.  I haven't seen her for few months (a few thousand miles will do that).  I showed her the travelling board I had told her about.  Her first thoughts "It seems flimsy", "Where are the [legends]?", and "I thought you said these were $300 or something."  Then she typed on it for a bit:

Hello this keyboard feels`like typing felt.  I am not a fan.  Sorry eh.  What is the advantage.   Spaace bar feels weird.ASDFASDFASDFasdfasdf

You can tell she has been living in Canadia for a while, eh?  I'll pick this up a bit later.

---------------------------------

I too am curious about the poor letter registration.  To attempt to rule out issues with conflicting hardware or programs running in the background, I am going to do a small test eliminating the possible sources of errors one by one:

---------------------------------

To address the issue I was having with the skipped letters, I'm going to write something reallyfree flowing without usgn the backspace.  This means tha you will see all offff badddd armmer and the issues I have been experiencing.  I'll admit that I have a hard time NOT using the backspace ile I am typing this.  It seems so natural to want to fix my errors.  Already you can see evidence of the ekys bing pressed too long and sombeing missed like the e and space between some and beignin the last sentenc.e  There we go again.  I can't type without errorpopping up to talk about the errors. I also notehat I do double spaces betweeen sentence beginning and end, and thosen't ablways send correctlyeither stupiddddd spaces.  And why do some letersdrag on like that?  This is not my usual error set orrr uantity, and it is driving me crazy.  Now I am going to try to eliminate issue to find the ssoure of the problem.

I have just unpluggemy other keyboard.  Previously I had been typing wt boarth keyboards plugged in, but one set to the side.    It was possse that the other keybrd was causing this one to skip, but that doesn't seem  to be hcase.  I still have errors

NOw I plugged the HHKB into a different socket on the computer.  This one seems to be going ok so far.  I had a hardtime doing it though, the darn USB kept not fitting, despite dturning it over repeatedly.  DOesn't it seem like USB plug are devices that exist in more than 3 space?  They are like hypercubes.  Te errors are still present, and I'm dropping keys occasionally.  I'm going to move on to the next step. 

I've justshut down google chrome.  This stage o the process of elimination I am going to try shutting dow n programs that run in tbcakroungd which might becausing the stuttering.  This one seems to not have worked.

Steam is next.  Now I won't know which Of my intrnet friends are plaing games without me.  Oh how sad.  I din't like them anyway.  Yep.  'm still getting the drp[ped cracters .  I must admit, some of thiese typos are mine and mine aolone.  But I can feel qwhen the typing stutters.  It seems to lag.  Since I am typing in a fvery freeform way, everytimer the text lags behind the words s I say them to myself in my head, it jars me to attntion. 

Next up: Foobar2000.  This is really a top notc player.  I can't stand using itunes, and winamp just han't progressed beyond that rivalry with realplayer years.  Yep.  Still dropping letters. 

It seems I Have stopped everything that isn a system program.  I would like to note that I am running Windows 7 on a higher end gaming cpu / mid tier gaming cpu.  Don get me wrong, I love this box,but the graphics cards are just crossfired mid tier cards, not Titans.  What am I, made of money?  I'm typing this out ni NOTEPAD before copyupasting it to geekhack.  I have no spellcheck or grammar check running.  I am trying to do this on tlightest weight text editor possible for my system. 

---------------------------------

I'm going to hand this off to the girlfriend to type on for a bit.

Hello keyboarders.  I am testing out the ol' fancy keyboard.  It is not as felt-like to my mind today but I am still not a fan.  I like a crisper click.  My main issue here is that I cannot get used to where delete/backspace is, but I am not having the same BlueNalgene problems with repeating keypresses.  I also do not understand why the spacebar is on upside down.  It hits my thumb.  I think it might get annoying after a hile.  I am leving in typos that are not just due to my typing fast, and as you can see there are somewhat fewer. Even then I am so used to using bakspace if somethingesn't quite register so it is really hard for me to tell.  I am going to switch to Blue's Cherry Clear for acontrol moment.  SCIENCE.
On the cherry:
Okay, let's do this.  I wonder how many typos I make on a keyboard that has a feel that I prefer.  I haven't tried to type without backspace in YEARS.  There was some program I used as a kid to learn typing.  Typing Tutor, maybe?  It had games to speed up your typing and now I type fast enough that occasionally there are complaints for me to SLOW DOWN if I am trying to chat via text.  So far no skipped letters on the Cherry as I run along.  But I didn't get into the skipped letters until another half a paragraph on the HHKB so let's keep going here and maybe I will speed up.  La la la what do I type about.  Blue's cat is watching me.  MRAO.  The spacebar on this typical format feels much better to me.  It is really weird how much of this is muscle memory, as it were.  My new Alps keyboard has layers to get to the up/down/side arrows, which I use a ton, and sometimes when I go back to a regular keyboard I get confused now.  Still no mushing together of letters on the Cherry.  Maybe this has somewhat to do with typing style, although there's really no reason why Blue and I would have similar typing styles I think (and I think similar words per minute).  Okay, switching back to see what happens.
Back to the topre: I do not like the plasticky sound as I set this keyboard back down.  It is just not my thing.  I get really disoriented by the delete/backspace location for my own typos, but my rate of skipped or doubled keypresses seems to be much less than foBlue.  Though I just sed to ... oh, there it happened.  I am laely not sure what's up withat.  I am missing r, spaces, and then t and h.  Weird.  So I would get prty frustrated if I had to use this keyboard on the regular.  Back to my nice clicky little traveling thinkpad keyboard.  Blue girlfriend out.

Thanks to the girl for her kind input.  Also, she might lend some support to my claims that I'm not crazy.  The skipping seems to happen for her too, although not as often.  Based on her description, she may not be bottoming out like I do until later.  According to her, she tends to make stronger keystrokes (bottoming out) after she gets into the zone.  Watching her type on her laptop confirms this suspicion. 

I am inclined to believe what keshley stated:

If people are trying to type on a HHKB without bottoming out, I wonder if its the same principle as boxing? With cherry, you can type without bottoming out without fatiguing your fingers, but the resistance on a Topre board is completely different.

--------------------------------

Now that I have had some time with the board, my opinions are mostly the same.  I think the thing is cute, and it has a place.  I feel like these switches are rather inferior to some of the options out there.  The physical sensation has not grown on me.  The tactile response is muddled at best, and the click sound (are these silent or regular?) is not pronounced.  The biggest issue I have with this board is the odd response of the switches to my typing.  I am making an effort here to type with very gentle touches, and the incorrect responses I was experiencing earlier is much less pronounced.  I would even guess that it has disappeared completely.  Maybe I'm too hard on these switches.  My fingers are ripped full of muscle, and they can't help but beat up switches like they had my lunch money.  My WPM are noticeably lower typing this way though.  Typing with these gentle strokes is like trying to swim without using your legs.  All of my power is gone, and I can't build up any momentum. 

There isn't any other way to look at it, I just don't like this board.  Others will, and more power to them.  But me?  I'll keep clicking away with my old tactile switches.

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #440 on: Thu, 03 March 2016, 23:09:36 »
2nd HHKB or 55g RF 87u? I like the HHKB form factor better but I've read that RF switches can feel slightly better.

55g RF

Live the good life and own both.
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Offline romevi

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #441 on: Thu, 03 March 2016, 23:42:32 »
Holy blog post, Batman. ;)
Great write-up BN. I wonder if your issue has more to do with using Topre for the first time. I remember when first I had my Realforce I kept pressing keys accidentally, mostly the L and S--pretty much those I rested on home row. They would register at the lightest touch, and at first I thought my board was defective. I had used buckling springs primarily before, so I was used to heavy switches.

However, the longer I've had my Topre the fewer mistakes I make. I still make accidental presses, but no skipping that I can think of.
I had no issues with the stutter on demik's board, and I wonder if that has to do with me being accustomed to Topre now.

To the others before me: Did you already use Topre before? If not, what were the heaviest switches you used regularly?

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #442 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 01:16:26 »
BN best reviews ever. Even if they're wrong OnO
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #443 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:37:39 »
If you're pushing the key all the way down in a fluid motion I'm still not understanding how you can get that many false or unregistered presses, unless the board is malfunctioning.

Also, if she's bothered by the spacebar, flip the dang thing around.  :P

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #444 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:39:21 »
Also, if she's bothered by the spacebar, flip the dang thing around.  :P

ಠ_ಠ

Offline Waateva

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #445 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:47:43 »
Holy blog post, Batman. ;)
Great write-up BN. I wonder if your issue has more to do with using Topre for the first time. I remember when first I had my Realforce I kept pressing keys accidentally, mostly the L and S--pretty much those I rested on home row. They would register at the lightest touch, and at first I thought my board was defective. I had used buckling springs primarily before, so I was used to heavy switches.

However, the longer I've had my Topre the fewer mistakes I make. I still make accidental presses, but no skipping that I can think of.
I had no issues with the stutter on demik's board, and I wonder if that has to do with me being accustomed to Topre now.

To the others before me: Did you already use Topre before? If not, what were the heaviest switches you used regularly?

I hadn't used Topre before, and the heaviest switches I use regularly now are Greens and Clears.  I also didn't have any of the problems that BN and his GF seem to be experiencing with keys registering or not registering, and personally I loved the feel and response of the spacebar.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #446 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:49:06 »
Also, if she's bothered by the spacebar, flip the dang thing around.  :P

ಠ_ಠ

I'm assuming the spacebar is flipped currently, right?  As much as I love a flipped spacebar, if unflipping will help someone love the board, why not?

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #447 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:50:38 »
Also, if she's bothered by the spacebar, flip the dang thing around.  :P

ಠ_ಠ

I'm assuming the spacebar is flipped currently, right?  As much as I love a flipped spacebar, if unflipping will help someone love the board, why not?

No, it's not flipped (at least not when I had it). I think I was also threatened when I offered to flip it.

Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #448 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 08:54:21 »
Also, if she's bothered by the spacebar, flip the dang thing around.  :P

ಠ_ಠ

I'm assuming the spacebar is flipped currently, right?  As much as I love a flipped spacebar, if unflipping will help someone love the board, why not?

No, it's not flipped (at least not when I had it). I think I was also threatened when I offered to flip it.

Well if it's not flipped now and it's hurting her, she should definitely flip it!

Offline demik

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Re: Church Of Topretology Presents: An HHKB U.S. Tour (LIST IS UP!)
« Reply #449 on: Fri, 04 March 2016, 09:09:00 »
You flip it and I will hunt you down ಠ_ಠ
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