Anyone else think the MMO in it's current state is on life support?

[LiquidEvilGaming]

Used to be such a huge flourishing genre and these days...

The former juggernaut WoW is definitely dying though not dead
The next biggest p2p MMO i know of is FF i believe ? And it's subscription numbers pale in comparison to even WoW
Free grindy MMO's populate korea and china quite a bit but aren't such big hits in other countries
Most p2p MMO's end up going f2p since their subscription numbers are so low they have no other choice besides closing down

There just hasn't been anything big or really genre changing for quite some time now and no real major juggernaut has entered the field either.  I really have to wonder if the genre as a whole is on life support at this point.

It's kind of sad really as it's a genre i used to love when i had a bit more free time for it but these days it very much seems on the way out.

[tp4tissue]

People want faster drugs.....

MOBA is there to fill this need....

[LiquidEvilGaming]

People want faster drugs.....

MOBA is there to fill this need....

The rise of MOBA's may indeed have had a hand in the decline of mmo's...which also makes me sad as i think MOBA's just suck IMO i can't find even a moment of fun in any of them.

[SixtyLife]

blade and soul is pretty fun

[Marizen]

I think that MOBA's definitely had an effect, but not a drastic one. They're two completely different types of games and they don't scratch the same itch. I know people that quit WoW, and LoL became their new addiction, but they didn't leave WoW for LoL, they just quit WoW to save money and picked up LoL to have a free game to play and be competitive.

I feel like the only p2p MMO that still really has any chance is WoW. Their numbers will skyrocket when Legion hits, and then slowly dwindle off some with the people that realize they just don't like WoW any more. They'll maintain subs if it's a good expansion, and they'll lose more subs if it's a crappy one.

I feel like the pay-to-win, f2p, micro-transaction, and in-game purchase MMO's are on life support, but not WoW quite yet. I think WoW still has a lot of life in it. WoW has an infection, and Legion is the antibiotic. If it works, WoW will be all better. If not, it might have to amputate (get rid of the monthly fees) to maintain subscribers.

[chuckdee]

I think the problem is unrealistic expectations, just like with anything that has it's rise and fall.  Will other games ever have WoW numbers?  There's been the touting of the WoW-Killer for a while, and it hasn't emerged.  The WoW-Killer was time, and all of the hype was bad for the genre.  But will they go away?  No... expectations will adjust.    And it's possible there will be future experiments like The Division, which for all off the fact that it looks like a shooter, is really an MMO by another name.

So, I guess my answer is, if you expect WoW numbers, then yes, MMOs aren't performing.  But I really think that that is an invalid expectation that needs to be adjusted, and it appears that some games are doing just that.

(Currently play ESO, SWTOR, Defiance, and The Division)

[xJudas]

Used to be such a huge flourishing genre and these days...

The former juggernaut WoW is definitely dying though not dead
The next biggest p2p MMO i know of is FF i believe ? And it's subscription numbers pale in comparison to even WoW

You'd be surprised. WoW was at 5.5 million active subscribers 3rd Quarter last year. FFXIV has 5 million accounts.. but highest estimates are 1.2 million are actually active. Not a bad number. Nothing like the old WoW days of 12+ million though. I recently just quit FFXIV after playing it all the way from the beta. It was easier to play these kinda games when I was younger (I played a bunch of WoW too), in highschool or college and had nothing but time on my hands... Now that I've got a marriage, mortgage, 2 car loans, I can't be bothered to login every night for several hours just to play "catch up". I'd rather load up something like Skyrim, Risk of Rain, Arma 3, Fallout, something where I can have fun for a few minutes or an hour or two. If I kept playing FFXIV I'd be grinding out every dang night. Forget all that.

Maybe this generation is just growing up, and can't invest time into it anymore. More important things like families, bills or careers are taking priority? It is for me at least. Time is money, friend.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

Used to be such a huge flourishing genre and these days...

The former juggernaut WoW is definitely dying though not dead
The next biggest p2p MMO i know of is FF i believe ? And it's subscription numbers pale in comparison to even WoW

You'd be surprised. WoW was at 5.5 million active subscribers 3rd Quarter last year. FFXIV has 5 million accounts.. but highest estimates are 1.2 million are actually active. Not a bad number. Nothing like the old WoW days of 12+ million though. I recently just quit FFXIV after playing it all the way from the beta. It was easier to play these kinda games when I was younger (I played a bunch of WoW too), in highschool or college and had nothing but time on my hands... Now that I've got a marriage, mortgage, 2 car loans, I can't be bothered to login every night for several hours just to play "catch up". I'd rather load up something like Skyrim, Risk of Rain, Arma 3, Fallout, something where I can have fun for a few minutes or an hour or two. If I kept playing FFXIV I'd be grinding out every dang night. Forget all that.

Maybe this generation is just growing up, and can't invest time into it anymore. More important things like families, bills or careers are taking priority? It is for me at least. Time is money, friend.

Time could indeed be an issue as well, i know toward the end of my time with wow i stuck to casual pvp as anything else required too large a time commitment.  These days i stick mostly to single player stuff or at most games with a multiplayer component.

[azhdar]

The best current game model is Pay4skins : paying for cosmetics or other items that are not affecting gameplay. You get a huge playerbase, and people able to pay will buy themselves some funny items because they are pleased with the game.

Monthly subscription drive away a lot of the playerbase , mostly the kids which can be good, but a smaller playerbase drives away players.

Pay2Win, worst model, the game will make money quick, but non paying people will realising they stand no chances, so the playerbase will only be paying people vs paying people which is not interesting.

[JamesGoblin]

There is at least a couple very interesting incoming titles - even if just one or two of these makes it, I'll be a very happy puppy <insert dancing puppy emoticon>

Currently, I am much more interested in some emus, which is kinda sad. But what annoys me much more is that everything with more than one player allowed is labeled as MMO today.

[Hak Foo]

The best current game model is Pay4skins : paying for cosmetics or other items that are not affecting gameplay. You get a huge playerbase, and people able to pay will buy themselves some funny items because they are pleased with the game.

Monthly subscription drive away a lot of the playerbase , mostly the kids which can be good, but a smaller playerbase drives away players.

Pay2Win, worst model, the game will make money quick, but non paying people will realising they stand no chances, so the playerbase will only be paying people vs paying people which is not interesting.

I'm surprised that you don't see more "long con" pay-to-win.  The items for sale are gated from, or not useful, for low-level players, so you don't experience the balance problems until you're already committed to the game.

I used to play Uncharted Waters Online a lot, and they were always advertising "chance to win (random high end ship) in the paid purchases" -- but as far as I can tell, all but the very smallest ships had some degree of level gating.  I wonder if you could even use those ships in that situation.

Pay-to-remove-inconvenience is also a popular model.  You can make do with 12 inventory slots, but you'll be spending most of your time heading to and from the market to sell off valuable items you don't need THIS SECOND.  I can tolerate this as long as it's not blatant.

[noisyturtle]

They are all essentially the same boring game with the same daily fetch quests the same tedious raids and the same never ending grind.
MMORPGs have been an outdated **** of a concept for years with little to no more actual innovation going on, just clone after clone of the same game type.

[tp4tissue]

They are all essentially the same boring game with the same daily fetch quests the same tedious raids and the same never ending grind.
MMORPGs have been an outdated **** of a concept for years with little to no more actual innovation going on, just clone after clone of the same game type.

you could argue EVERY game is like that.. hahahahahha...

[GenKaan]

I think its pretty simple and obvious in the case of WoW

The initial hype of the game slowly died as Blizzard turned it more and more casual, removing the unique feature of each faction, removed the realm "feel" (cross-realm BG and later instance), made the faction share towns, daily quests felt like a desperate action to keep grind less grindy, turned a big army of 40 to a small party of 25(?) and on top of that having easy/hard mode of the same raid. On top of reusing old stuff, re-skin, and trying to keep the stuff that made the game great while keep moving forward

The fact you have a million health by now is just silly. Think WoW was one of the best game Ive ever played back in vanilla, if I could keep it casual I would most likely go back to my vanilla hunter I geared up on a private server. But that isnt in my nature so Ill stick with fighting games since you can sit down for 15min and get something out of it

Understand that every action was made in order to keep players and I think that is the key part in the games decline. Still think WoW could live for a long time if they made servers for each expansion, like a official vanilla/TBC/WOTLK (and so on) realms. Vanilla arena would be hype as ****, 2x PoM/Pyro mages vs 2x ambush dagger rouges haha! Get touched once RiP

[xtrafrood]

Yup. When you have to place characters like Elins in games to make them successful something is wrong.

[Marizen]

The initial hype of the game slowly died as Blizzard turned it more and more casual, removing the unique feature of each faction, removed the realm "feel" (cross-realm BG and later instance), made the faction share towns, daily quests felt like a desperate action to keep grind less grindy, turned a big army of 40 to a small party of 25(?) and on top of that having easy/hard mode of the same raid. On top of reusing old stuff, re-skin, and trying to keep the stuff that made the game great while keep moving forward

Pretty much exactly how I feel about WoW.

They try too hard to improve the game. There is no way to perfect it. They keep changing things to try to make people like it more, but really all they're doing is making it so that one group of players may like it a little more, while another group will hate the changes. The trend seems to be that they're making the game more and more casual, so instead of catering to the more devoted players, they're catering to the casuals (just a theory, though).

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

[UTommieTanka]

They are all essentially the same boring game with the same daily fetch quests the same tedious raids and the same never ending grind.
MMORPGs have been an outdated **** of a concept for years with little to no more actual innovation going on, just clone after clone of the same game type.

yep yep yep

[chuckdee]

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

Many people say this, but I don't think going back in time is going to bring back the glory days.  It's a different time, and a different market.

[Kronos32]

Quite frankly, most MMO's are, as you mentioned, on life support.
I believe this is because it's a genre that has been promptly exhausted.
WoW began the whole MMO craze back in 2004/2005, and it's been nearly 11/12 years since. Most people look back on those times very fondly while others still play the game (or some other MMO for that matter) to fill that very void that MMO's used to fill.

Personally, I think MOBAs conquered over MMO's in the end, I mean hell, look at how many people play LoL every day, and they play the same map, with the same lineup, over and over again. You'd think people would get bored...

[iLLucionist]

They try too hard to improve the game. There is no way to perfect it. They keep changing things to try to make people like it more, but really all they're doing is making it so that one group of players may like it a little more, while another group will hate the changes. The trend seems to be that they're making the game more and more casual, so instead of catering to the more devoted players, they're catering to the casuals (just a theory, though).

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

Well.. I guess the "market" for WoW has "satiated" and it will not "grow" much more.

Personally, I once tried WoW and it was addictive so I quit immediately. When I'm "into" a game, it keeps me in it for like 2-3 weeks before interest fades off and that's fine (like MGS V, Witcher 3, etc.). It feels like a prolonged high. But WoW... I would've lost my life by now. So I try to stay away from that.

[Lurch]

where is the pvp

[FLFisherman]

They try too hard to improve the game. There is no way to perfect it. They keep changing things to try to make people like it more, but really all they're doing is making it so that one group of players may like it a little more, while another group will hate the changes. The trend seems to be that they're making the game more and more casual, so instead of catering to the more devoted players, they're catering to the casuals (just a theory, though).

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

Well.. I guess the "market" for WoW has "satiated" and it will not "grow" much more.

Personally, I once tried WoW and it was addictive so I quit immediately. When I'm "into" a game, it keeps me in it for like 2-3 weeks before interest fades off and that's fine (like MGS V, Witcher 3, etc.). It feels like a prolonged high. But WoW... I would've lost my life by now. So I try to stay away from that.

I think it's very hard to maintain a population for MMOs. I'm actually surprised WoW is still around.

Like you, I stay interested in most story-driven games for only a few weeks. The only ones I play longer are those with multiplayer aspects (usually shooters like BF3, CoD, etc).

WoW was unlike any game I had played before, and I've not played anything since. There was always more to do, and that just took so much time. I could never "complete" it, so I had to keep playing until I realized how much time I was spending on it.

[mobbo]

where is the pvp

1v1 me club penguin

[Lurch]

where is the pvp

1v1 me club penguin

knife only

[iLLucionist]

They try too hard to improve the game. There is no way to perfect it. They keep changing things to try to make people like it more, but really all they're doing is making it so that one group of players may like it a little more, while another group will hate the changes. The trend seems to be that they're making the game more and more casual, so instead of catering to the more devoted players, they're catering to the casuals (just a theory, though).

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

Well.. I guess the "market" for WoW has "satiated" and it will not "grow" much more.

Personally, I once tried WoW and it was addictive so I quit immediately. When I'm "into" a game, it keeps me in it for like 2-3 weeks before interest fades off and that's fine (like MGS V, Witcher 3, etc.). It feels like a prolonged high. But WoW... I would've lost my life by now. So I try to stay away from that.

I think it's very hard to maintain a population for MMOs. I'm actually surprised WoW is still around.

Like you, I stay interested in most story-driven games for only a few weeks. The only ones I play longer are those with multiplayer aspects (usually shooters like BF3, CoD, etc).

WoW was unlike any game I had played before, and I've not played anything since. There was always more to do, and that just took so much time. I could never "complete" it, so I had to keep playing until I realized how much time I was spending on it.

Yeah I guess that's it... there is a certain level of "completeness" you will not reach with WoW so you keep coming back for more. Or you don't and keep your life

[LiquidEvilGaming]

They try too hard to improve the game. There is no way to perfect it. They keep changing things to try to make people like it more, but really all they're doing is making it so that one group of players may like it a little more, while another group will hate the changes. The trend seems to be that they're making the game more and more casual, so instead of catering to the more devoted players, they're catering to the casuals (just a theory, though).

If they wanna regain subs they should make it how it was when they had 12 million subs (WotLK I think?).

Well.. I guess the "market" for WoW has "satiated" and it will not "grow" much more.

Personally, I once tried WoW and it was addictive so I quit immediately. When I'm "into" a game, it keeps me in it for like 2-3 weeks before interest fades off and that's fine (like MGS V, Witcher 3, etc.). It feels like a prolonged high. But WoW... I would've lost my life by now. So I try to stay away from that.

I think it's very hard to maintain a population for MMOs. I'm actually surprised WoW is still around.

Like you, I stay interested in most story-driven games for only a few weeks. The only ones I play longer are those with multiplayer aspects (usually shooters like BF3, CoD, etc).

WoW was unlike any game I had played before, and I've not played anything since. There was always more to do, and that just took so much time. I could never "complete" it, so I had to keep playing until I realized how much time I was spending on it.

Yeah I guess that's it... there is a certain level of "completeness" you will not reach with WoW so you keep coming back for more. Or you don't and keep your life

Admission: I came back this week to check out how the game is progressing toward legion =/

[iLLucionist]

Sooo... you addicted already? Did we lose you? Please come back to GH! Have you got Topre already?

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I think MMOs are bound to suffer from the same old problem of not having a human DM/GM with powerful tools and a rich, vibrant, brilliant and motivated… brain. Which obviously takes much above average mental aptitude, which means you can't hire one for $12K per annum. So it's gonna come down to the same old problem of procedures, instances and all the recycling and mindless grind. Either that or non-open pre-scripted adventures. Either way, it's bad, and it's bad because of its natural limitations.

Besides, the older people get, the more they value their time and the less they have of it, so the same old exping and farming that was so cool back in one's teenage years isn't going to be so exciting any more. This may even be why RPG developers are moving away from complex systems and embracing streamlined storytelling with great visuals that kinda feels like taking a cab through a scenic park compared to the games of old, where you actually got to walk the pretty and the ugly parts of the forest and get a taste of real life.

[xtrafrood]

What I don't understand is why so many game companies invest all this effort to create a game engine when Unreal engine exists. I can't tell you how many buggy MMO games I've come across. How often does this happen with Unreal engine games? Man..

[iLLucionist]

What I don't understand is why so many game companies invest all this effort to create a game engine when Unreal engine exists. I can't tell you how many buggy MMO games I've come across. How often does this happen with Unreal engine games? Man..

Sounds like a good cup of "not invented here":

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NotInventedHere

I sometimes have to make the choice as a developer myself as well: do I take some major sick huge API and learn it or build a lean and light API myself that will eventually become bloated as well because I'll need the corner cases and nuances that the original major API provides?

[tp4tissue]

So it works like this..

Real life (super long grind) -> reward

MMORPG (long grind) -> reward

MOBA (short grind) -> reward

Cocaine/Heroin/Methamphetamine (no grind)

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

So it works like this..

Real life (super long grind) -> reward

MMORPG (long grind) -> reward

MOBA (short grind) -> reward

Cocaine/Heroin/Methamphetamine (no grind)

what's the reward for real-life?

[tp4tissue]

So it works like this..

Real life (super long grind) -> reward

MMORPG (long grind) -> reward

MOBA (short grind) -> reward

Cocaine/Heroin/Methamphetamine (no grind)

what's the reward for real-life?

You get a little bit of naturally produced Heroin in your brain, and it makes you go, ahhhh, that feels good...

This leads you --Create-- the cycle to DO MORE of what you just did to get m0re of that natural heroin..


This is why Heroin feels so good and is one of the most difficult drugs to quit, it works extremely well with our biological rewards pathways..

[Waateva]

So it works like this..

Real life (super long grind) -> reward

MMORPG (long grind) -> reward

MOBA (short grind) -> reward

Cocaine/Heroin/Methamphetamine (no grind)

what's the reward for real-life?

Death, the final endgame?

[Baddy126]

Google some videos of Blade and Soul. It's an mmo with a huge pvp twist to it. Kinda reminds me of a 3D street fighter

[tp4tissue]

Google some videos of Blade and Soul. It's an mmo with a huge pvp twist to it. Kinda reminds me of a 3D street fighter

Why would that make me want to play it.. hahahahah

do you mean 3d or 2.5d

[NewbieOneKenobi]

What I don't understand is why so many game companies invest all this effort to create a game engine when Unreal engine exists. I can't tell you how many buggy MMO games I've come across. How often does this happen with Unreal engine games? Man..

Sounds like a good cup of "not invented here":

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NotInventedHere

I sometimes have to make the choice as a developer myself as well: do I take some major sick huge API and learn it or build a lean and light API myself that will eventually become bloated as well because I'll need the corner cases and nuances that the original major API provides?

Ditto. For example making your CMS vs using Wordpress.

I'm a translator by trade, and translation agencies make us use CAT software, i.e. XML-driven translation memories handled by huge standalone editors… some of which aren't really huge and are simply a way of being different and a matter of power, you know, getting translators to use your own inhouse software because you said so. I hate those jobs, and I practically never accept them. I will very reluctantly agree to take a small job with a relaxed deadline in a more or less standard CAT I'm not familiar with, but forget inhouse/proprietary crap, ain't gonna happen.

Back to games, I wish there were some companies using standard toolsets to make quality paid modules for large studios' games, soft of like Obsidian did for a while and not only them. With the Neverwinter Nights toolset, third-party paid modules became a possibility. Too bad it's no longer there. Modders already spend so much free time coding, drawing, rendering etc. If they were more liberally allowed to monetize the content, they could both make some money and extend the life and appeal of the underlying 'franchise' (how I hate the f-word…). That way, their coders could concentrate on scripting instead, graphical artists and level designers wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel and so on — most of which is useless effort apart from a minimum of personal growth that could probably be better achieved elsewhere (and the time could be spent more productively anyway).

I still have NWN1 and NWN2, or Dragon Age even, it would be great if I could just pay €10 or even €20 to download a nice new adventure every now and then with some semblance of real QA monetization affords (or whatever paid resources that can help make better stuff).

[iLLucionist]

What I don't understand is why so many game companies invest all this effort to create a game engine when Unreal engine exists. I can't tell you how many buggy MMO games I've come across. How often does this happen with Unreal engine games? Man..

Sounds like a good cup of "not invented here":

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?NotInventedHere

I sometimes have to make the choice as a developer myself as well: do I take some major sick huge API and learn it or build a lean and light API myself that will eventually become bloated as well because I'll need the corner cases and nuances that the original major API provides?

Ditto. For example making your CMS vs using Wordpress.

I'm a translator by trade, and translation agencies make us use CAT software, i.e. XML-driven translation memories handled by huge standalone editors… some of which aren't really huge and are simply a way of being different and a matter of power, you know, getting translators to use your own inhouse software because you said so. I hate those jobs, and I practically never accept them. I will very reluctantly agree to take a small job with a relaxed deadline in a more or less standard CAT I'm not familiar with, but forget inhouse/proprietary crap, ain't gonna happen.

Back to games, I wish there were some companies using standard toolsets to make quality paid modules for large studios' games, soft of like Obsidian did for a while and not only them. With the Neverwinter Nights toolset, third-party paid modules became a possibility. Too bad it's no longer there. Modders already spend so much free time coding, drawing, rendering etc. If they were more liberally allowed to monetize the content, they could both make some money and extend the life and appeal of the underlying 'franchise' (how I hate the f-word…). That way, their coders could concentrate on scripting instead, graphical artists and level designers wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel and so on — most of which is useless effort apart from a minimum of personal growth that could probably be better achieved elsewhere (and the time could be spent more productively anyway).

I still have NWN1 and NWN2, or Dragon Age even, it would be great if I could just pay €10 or even €20 to download a nice new adventure every now and then with some semblance of real QA monetization affords (or whatever paid resources that can help make better stuff).

Amen to that!