Author Topic: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter  (Read 28598 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1467
  • Location: Isle of Man
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline ski_

  • Posts: 15
Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 07 March 2017, 23:27:02 »
Thanks for posting this. MX Blue, or MX Brown-- such decisions...
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 March 2017, 08:53:41 by ski_ »

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1467
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 07 March 2017, 23:29:48 »
If you have co workers - I'd go for brown.  I like the feel of both, but not a big fan of the sound of blues.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 00:17:01 »
Might have to see about an MX reds version.  Though I must admit that just having my Ducky in a negative tilt, not smashing the keys, and some occasional foam rolling have me uncertain as to whether I'll really need an ergo board or not.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 00:44:46 »
mmm.....  it's ok.......  but the default tenting option doesn't seem to go beyond 30 degrees..

Offline sems

  • Posts: 47
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 01:17:18 »
This looks like what Mistel Barocco should have been in the first place regarding to tenting.

Online Findecanor

  • Posts: 3963
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
  • On the outside looking in
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 12:48:38 »
No ISO!
All keys are OEM home row profile (except Space Bar)
Buying two or six at once is cheaper per unit. (local group orders!)
Layout editor is Windows only (but Linux nerds modify the text file anyway)
They reference the Deskthority Wiki :) (which in turn references a post on Geekhack by Kinesis' rep natas206, so yeah: circle)
Smoking is assault. I defend myself.
Daily driver: Phantom (Lubed Cherry MX Clear, Lasered Cherry PBT keycaps with Row A. Plastic "Frankencase". Custom firmware, Swedish layout)

Offline cribbit

  • Posts: 288
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 14:50:05 »
I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.
I typed this post on my Slanck. I also developed a stronger, cleaner, easier handwiring method.


Offline natas206

  • * Commercial Vendor
  • Posts: 171
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:06:56 »
Oh man, that video is so professional  :) The people on here who interact with us know how small of a company we are so it's weird seeing a video so nicely done. Not complaining though!

As most of you all know we've had the Freestyle out for some time, but it always lacked a couple of big things - mechanical key switches and the programming features of the Advantage. So once we designed the new electronics for the Advantage2, we could use that in the Freestyle Edge, which made a lot of sense for it to all come together.

Now I know its impossible to please everyone, some people are really going to like it, others will wish it was something else, but at the end of the day its really cool for us to see something like this finally come together especially after all the requests we received to make a mechaincal version of the Freestyle. It's been fun working on everything and I really like the new programming features, it makes my job a lot easier being able to see actual files.  Some of the features the Edge has will eventually carry over to the Adv2 (like NKRO, I believe), so that's cool too as an Adv2 user myself.

Offline cribbit

  • Posts: 288
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:16:45 »
Oh man, that video is so professional  :) The people on here who interact with us know how small of a company we are so it's weird seeing a video so nicely done. Not complaining though!

As most of you all know we've had the Freestyle out for some time, but it always lacked a couple of big things - mechanical key switches and the programming features of the Advantage. So once we designed the new electronics for the Advantage2, we could use that in the Freestyle Edge, which made a lot of sense for it to all come together.

Now I know its impossible to please everyone, some people are really going to like it, others will wish it was something else, but at the end of the day its really cool for us to see something like this finally come together especially after all the requests we received to make a mechaincal version of the Freestyle. It's been fun working on everything and I really like the new programming features, it makes my job a lot easier being able to see actual files.  Some of the features the Edge has will eventually carry over to the Adv2 (like NKRO, I believe), so that's cool too as an Adv2 user myself.

Oh whoa hi.

Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.
I typed this post on my Slanck. I also developed a stronger, cleaner, easier handwiring method.


Offline MandrewDavis

  • Posts: 450
  • Location: Fl
  • Chasin' That Neon Rainbow
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:27:13 »
I know the intended market won't really change caps but Kinesis went as far as pointing out how everything is almost standard sized but still didn't make them as such. At least they are black.

I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

This is a product for the masses and when switching to an ergodox or anything ortholinear,  the difference in stagger is a big adjustment. Its a great layout with all the function keys and everything else in familiar spots. Even my mom didn't have a problem adjusting to the VE.A. 

The pricepoint is decent and it fills a market gap.
I've come to view humanity as predominantly monkey business.

My Classifieds Thread

Offline natas206

  • * Commercial Vendor
  • Posts: 171
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:58:44 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 18:28:37 »
I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

Not really.  This is ideal for a number of people that want the split without the layout of an Ergodox.  I like the 'dox but, for me, it has several faults.  In that I'm really not the biggest fan of a symmetric matrix layout and similarly don't like the lack of dedicated F keys.  All I really want is an MS Ergo keyboard with some MX reds or hall effect switches. 

Kinesis already has a symmetric board so the Freestyle is covering the ergo-ANSI layout crowd that want something like a Matias Ergo Pro but with the 6 on the left side where it belongs ;)

Offline ski_

  • Posts: 15
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 18:35:58 »
I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.
This would be perfect.

Offline blighty

  • Posts: 365
  • Location: New York, USA
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 00:49:42 »
I know the intended market won't really change caps but Kinesis went as far as pointing out how everything is almost standard sized but still didn't make them as such. At least they are black.

I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

This is a product for the masses and when switching to an ergodox or anything ortholinear,  the difference in stagger is a big adjustment. Its a great layout with all the function keys and everything else in familiar spots. Even my mom didn't have a problem adjusting to the VE.A. 

The pricepoint is decent and it fills a market gap.

I was hoping that the escape key would be split into 2 keys, but they seem to be in love with that 2u key.  Ah well, I am looking forward to this awesome bit of kit.  I was using ergo-ansi boards from '98 to 2012, when my ms ergo 4000 got too gross to read/type on.  I found geekhack while looking for a decent replacement for it.  Gone through god knows how many mechanical boards since then, but have always missed the rotated halves of ergo-ansi boards.  I thought the LZ ergo was going to be it for me, but I like the various options one has in setting up/ using the Freestyle Edge:

162409-0
 
When I used a freestyle 2 for a bit, I always ended up rotating the left side and keeping the right side "conventional" to maximize my right side space for random crap on my desk, mouse included.  With any luck, the build quality of the freestyle edge will be on par with, if not better than the freestyle 2, which was a great, solid-feeling board (even for a rubberdome). 

TLDR;  Is it July yet?   :))
LZ ergo (MX silent red) | JER - A06 (MX silent black-red springs) | Duck Lightsaver V2 (MX red) | Duck Octogon V2 (gateron clear) (lifted pads) | Duck Orion V2 (gateron red) | Realforce R2TSLA-US4-IV | Realforce R2TLSA-US4-BK | TX 75 (gateron clear) | KBDFANS 75 ("vintage" MX blues) | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (MX red) | NIZ 84EC-S (35gr) | MS Surface Ergonomic | MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL (MX black | Phantom (Filco case) ("vintage" MX blacks | Spr1t 75% PCB x 2 (MX black and gateron clear) | Cherry G80-1865 (MX browns with black springs)

Offline hoggy

  • * Moderator
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1467
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:11:18 »
Looks like a great product.  Easy to adapt to for users coming from a standard keyboard and has plenty of adjust-ability.

I'm actually looking forward to recommending it to people.
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Online algernon

  • Posts: 287
  • A tiny mouse, a hacker.
    • Diaries of a Madman
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:33:21 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Yes please.

Offline dantan

  • Posts: 288
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:59:14 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Yes please.

They should have made split layout the first project, not the nth next.

Kinesis makes great keyboards but that big hump in the middle is unneeded and just takes up precious desk space.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 12:04:16 »
The should also get rid of those inside curves in the wrist rest, looks out of place, when they have chamfers on the rest of their keyboard.

this is what happens when you got engineers doing the industrial art.. hahahhaha.. they make rookie mistakes.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 17:14:42 »
Hrrmmmmmmmmm....


That left row of gaming keys.

That should not be there..


For a split keyboard where it'd be tented,  you want the left edge of your pinky keys to drop as low as possible to maintain wrist ergonomics.

They should put the extra game keys above the F-row.

Online csmertx

  • proprietor of waffles
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2414
  • Location: Gainesville, FL
    • https://csmertx.github.io
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 18:34:22 »
Maybe a normal 1u Esc for v2? The first version looks pretty damn good though
 / another 3d keyboard model thread / open source sucks / github 
Quote
...Especially the Florida cousins, who obviously can't take a hint.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 20:46:19 »
Another issue is.. since they're preserving the staggered qwerty rows,  they should make the spacebar Thicker like the matias ergopro.

for the left hand keys.. usually you approach them slightly at an angle,  so a spacebar which goes a little further in the -y direction would be easier to hit for the thumb.

Offline kasakka

  • Posts: 107
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 08:03:57 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible. Hopefully it is also programmable. The huge esc key well away from the main keys is also a minus. Overall the device is too big and that seems to be only to fit the remap, macro etc keys.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:09:36 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible. Hopefully it is also programmable. The huge esc key well away from the main keys is also a minus. Overall the device is too big and that seems to be only to fit the remap, macro etc keys.

Yea, for a split keyboard the fn keys definitely shouldn't go on the outside edge like that.

Offline natas206

  • * Commercial Vendor
  • Posts: 171
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:42:54 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:47:51 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

that's not the point.

if you tent a keyboard, you want the left and right edge to be as low as possible to match up with your finger heights.


If the main keys are now shifted inwards,  then you need a second wrist rest to hold your hand up..


This is a huge mistake on their part.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 00:06:21 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

A reasonable amount since media keys are typically associated to Fn.  So long as I can map them to the left side keys, that pretty heavily eliminates my need for Fn keys altogether.

Offline possumgumbo

  • Posts: 30
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 11:21:03 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?



Offline davkol

  •  Post Editing Timeout
  • Posts: 4994
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 12:25:45 »
Over 4/5 funded in a week, with over three weeks to go? I have no doubt money won't be the problem.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 12:27:38 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?


I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)


Offline natas206

  • * Commercial Vendor
  • Posts: 171
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 17:02:39 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 March 2017, 17:04:27 by natas206 »

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 22:46:20 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?


I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Depends on what you want out of an ergonomic solution.  The Ergodox is enough of a problem for me that I haven't bought one and don't really have much interest in buying one.  At a minimum, it needs another row of keys.  Even then, it's going to be a compromise in location for several right-hand non-alpha keys.  I can map them into something semi-decent but it's too much a layout compromise for me to want to spend that kind of money on it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 March 2017, 22:48:25 by Niomosy »

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 02:05:50 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   

If the tenting angle shallow, It doesn't really matter that those keys are on the outside edge.


But if the tenting angle is Higher, suddenly those keys MUST go somewhere else..


So, as an engineer, you have a choice, make the solution that would work with all potential tenting angles, or put it somewhere which may be suboptimal for a range of higher angles.


This is not user preference or feedback issue,  this is a segment of use scenarios which you're not covering, that could be done at no compromise to cost or complexity.




Now, as far as angles go..  The neutral wrist angle while seated,  is approximately 70 degrees from the desk plane.. 

With the thick keys, you can get to ~55, while the thinner board can go higher..


The goal is ergonomics..    the wrist problem is the biggest issue surrounding long use discomfort..


So part 1, you're designing the product that covers the broader market/ use case "more angles"

PART 2, you also have to invest in some consumer education to wise them up to the better-ways to use your product,  higher angles..



Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 14:14:58 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   

If the tenting angle shallow, It doesn't really matter that those keys are on the outside edge.


But if the tenting angle is Higher, suddenly those keys MUST go somewhere else..


So, as an engineer, you have a choice, make the solution that would work with all potential tenting angles, or put it somewhere which may be suboptimal for a range of higher angles.


This is not user preference or feedback issue,  this is a segment of use scenarios which you're not covering, that could be done at no compromise to cost or complexity.




Now, as far as angles go..  The neutral wrist angle while seated,  is approximately 70 degrees from the desk plane.. 

With the thick keys, you can get to ~55, while the thinner board can go higher..


The goal is ergonomics..    the wrist problem is the biggest issue surrounding long use discomfort..


So part 1, you're designing the product that covers the broader market/ use case "more angles"

PART 2, you also have to invest in some consumer education to wise them up to the better-ways to use your product,  higher angles..

I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 16:29:33 »


I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.


Niomosy,  if this was 15 years ago.. You would be correct at least on your cost argument..

But we now have solidworks..   I kid you not the engineer can double click for a few hours.. and the chassis modifications are done..

The pcb stuff, also largely automated..


Assuming they don't have a design team of mainly interns,  the seasoned engi could bang out these minor modifications in 2 days tops....




As for market..   creating new markets is the primary element to market dominance..

Before Gaming light up mice,  there wasn't any..  so Some people went and made it, marketed it and NOW there they are..


This is the same for EVERY product that will ever eventually arise..




Using a flat keyboard is suboptimal..  we know this because people who USE KEYBOARDS ALOT coming from flat rectangles all end up with the same injuries and hand pains..

And we KNOW from field studies and tests that tented and split is the way to go for extended use..


Who this keyboard is designed for is secondary to the fact that it COULD BE BETTER @ very little cost,  WHILE that change would also NOT affect the market it could cover.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 17:46:29 »
And more simply..

Those left side keys are a mistake, because of the natural symmetry of your hands.

Take a look, they're symmetrical..


So, what is the problem with those left keys.


At ALL tented angles, the placement of those gaming keys raise the z-value of the center qwerty keys, by pushing them slightly upwards.



So at shallow angles, the left hand is typing slightly higher than the right hand.


Now, at steeper angles,  the placement of the gaming keys pushes more on the z-axis rather than the x-axis.

So the more the tenting, the HIGHER the difference your left hand will be typing relative to your right..



ASSUMING a perfect orientation of the keyboard exists at x, y, z height.


NO MATTER WHAT , due to the asymmetrical design failure of this keyboard,   ONE of the sides of the keyboard will be at a mismatch...



So in conclusion,   This product is the result of poor engineering leadership where dispassionate managers failed to inspire deeper thinking... 

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 18:10:03 »


I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.


Niomosy,  if this was 15 years ago.. You would be correct at least on your cost argument..

But we now have solidworks..   I kid you not the engineer can double click for a few hours.. and the chassis modifications are done..

The pcb stuff, also largely automated..


Assuming they don't have a design team of mainly interns,  the seasoned engi could bang out these minor modifications in 2 days tops....




As for market..   creating new markets is the primary element to market dominance..

Before Gaming light up mice,  there wasn't any..  so Some people went and made it, marketed it and NOW there they are..


This is the same for EVERY product that will ever eventually arise..




Using a flat keyboard is suboptimal..  we know this because people who USE KEYBOARDS ALOT coming from flat rectangles all end up with the same injuries and hand pains..

And we KNOW from field studies and tests that tented and split is the way to go for extended use..


Who this keyboard is designed for is secondary to the fact that it COULD BE BETTER @ very little cost,  WHILE that change would also NOT affect the market it could cover.


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.

Offline MajorMajor

  • Posts: 88
  • Mechanical Keyboard Enthusiast
    • Coding Supply
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 19:09:24 »
I'm still waiting on my Ultimate Hacking Keyboard!
TKL / Clears / Dvorak / Flipped Space for Life / Best Programming Keyboards

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 07:45:09 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.





Offline blighty

  • Posts: 365
  • Location: New York, USA
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:05:29 »

It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


Considering this board is being released under the "KinesisGaming" imprint, I would think that the primary target audience for this board is people who game (hence their marketingspeak and the various things that would/could appeal to 'gamers' , like being backlit, programmable, and having macro keys).  So, it's a gaming keyboard with a proven history of ergonomic usage.  To some people it may not be the best implementation, but it has all the things that I'd want to build a custom board for.  I rarely use the bells and whistles on customs, and probably won't be macroing it up, but it's nice to have the option. 

I probably say this in part because I have no love for the ergodox.   :p
LZ ergo (MX silent red) | JER - A06 (MX silent black-red springs) | Duck Lightsaver V2 (MX red) | Duck Octogon V2 (gateron clear) (lifted pads) | Duck Orion V2 (gateron red) | Realforce R2TSLA-US4-IV | Realforce R2TLSA-US4-BK | TX 75 (gateron clear) | KBDFANS 75 ("vintage" MX blues) | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (MX red) | NIZ 84EC-S (35gr) | MS Surface Ergonomic | MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL (MX black | Phantom (Filco case) ("vintage" MX blacks | Spr1t 75% PCB x 2 (MX black and gateron clear) | Cherry G80-1865 (MX browns with black springs)

Online csmertx

  • proprietor of waffles
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 2414
  • Location: Gainesville, FL
    • https://csmertx.github.io
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:18:18 »
I noticed that this guy is not compatible with current Kinesis tenting stuff. Huh?
 / another 3d keyboard model thread / open source sucks / github 
Quote
...Especially the Florida cousins, who obviously can't take a hint.

Offline blighty

  • Posts: 365
  • Location: New York, USA
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:27:24 »
I noticed that this guy is not compatible with current Kinesis tenting stuff. Huh?

Yah, It seems they redesigned the board just enough to push sales of new tenting equipment...

LZ ergo (MX silent red) | JER - A06 (MX silent black-red springs) | Duck Lightsaver V2 (MX red) | Duck Octogon V2 (gateron clear) (lifted pads) | Duck Orion V2 (gateron red) | Realforce R2TSLA-US4-IV | Realforce R2TLSA-US4-BK | TX 75 (gateron clear) | KBDFANS 75 ("vintage" MX blues) | Kinesis Freestyle Pro (MX red) | NIZ 84EC-S (35gr) | MS Surface Ergonomic | MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 | Filco Majestouch 2 TKL (MX black | Phantom (Filco case) ("vintage" MX blacks | Spr1t 75% PCB x 2 (MX black and gateron clear) | Cherry G80-1865 (MX browns with black springs)

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 17 March 2017, 23:32:13 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 17 March 2017, 23:52:59 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.


Think about it this way..

It's an OBVIOUS improvement...


Should this keyboard prove to be remotely successful.. The very next company to iterate will have a superior product, then bam.. All your previous momentum was lost..


Competition also means out competing at every step..   2 steps ahead is better than 1

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 01:02:16 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.


Think about it this way..

It's an OBVIOUS improvement...


Should this keyboard prove to be remotely successful.. The very next company to iterate will have a superior product, then bam.. All your previous momentum was lost..


Competition also means out competing at every step..   2 steps ahead is better than 1


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 01:33:23 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 03:12:16 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 05:19:14 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.



It's the same as not saving money for what you really want.


You end up wasting time and money on HALF measures...


Go all the way and be done with it.

Offline Niomosy

  • Posts: 1239
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 23:49:43 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.



It's the same as not saving money for what you really want.


You end up wasting time and money on HALF measures...


Go all the way and be done with it.

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.

Online tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 11976
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 00:37:41 »

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.


Which is why i never said to cut them out.. Put them somewhere else..