I'm REALLY trying to like Topre...

[bmilcs]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use. I don't know if it's the lack of sweet, sweet GMK keycaps or my beloved 62g thoroughly lubed ergoclears... but both 87u's are causing me issues. I think I attribute it to the PBT & plate-mounted switches, so I don't want to write Topre off just yet!

What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.

I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl  + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.

Thoughts?

[bmilcs]

TLDR: Wtb HHKB 87u.

[tkim]

I don't use the function keys that often but I use several combination as I do a lot of work in excel with my hhkb, no problems for me but YMMV

[zslane]

Buying an HHKB as a blind experiment is a rather expensive way to test the Topre waters a little further. My thinking is that if you are so used to your current board that a stock RealForce gives you RSI pain, then nothing is going to ever replace your current board. You are simply too used to it now, and anything else will just feel wrong. There's probably little benefit to replacing your KUL at this point.

[nmur]

if you do a dental band mod for your realforce, the force required to press down the key goes down quite a bit.

i've got a 45g RF 87U and a HHKB, both are dental band modded because i love the lighter press and the silence affect

a pack of dental bands are like $3 so if you're okay with modification then i think it could be a good test for yourself. you can unmod just as easily too.

[digi]

hhkb is 45g so not sure you'd be happy with that either. Some like the thock on the plastic hhkb opposed to the steel plate in the Realforce, these are not cheap trials here in Geekhack land.

45g is really light for me, broken in 55gs can't be beat.

[bmilcs]

I don't know if 55g is really heavy. Or it's the key travel to actuation. Or what

Dental band reduces travel? that sounds promising.

[bmilcs]

Where should I get the bands?

[nmur]

I don't know if 55g is really heavy. Or it's the key travel to actuation. Or what

Dental band reduces travel? that sounds promising.

reducing the travel for topre in this case means having the rubber dome already partially collapsed, so the required force from that point on is lower

[nmur]

Where should I get the bands?

ebay/aliexpress/dentist

when i first got them i ordered a few different sizes because each size would give a different level of silencing/reduced travel

[tp4tissue]

Muahahahahaha....

[Tactile]

I say just forget it. If you don't like those Realforce boards you won't like a HHKB. If you don't like Topre, well, there you go. I don't see the point of futzing around fighting your own preference. I think it would be pretty cool to just eliminate one type of keyboard/switch from my list 'cause I didn't like it. Then I wouldn't be surrounded by Topre, Model M, Model F, Alps, MX, NEC blue oval, etc. If I could eliminate one type I could make some room. 

[bmilcs]

I say just forget it. If you don't like those Realforce boards you won't like a HHKB. If you don't like Topre, well, there you go. I don't see the point of futzing around fighting your own preference. I think it would be pretty cool to just eliminate one type of keyboard/switch from my list 'cause I didn't like it. Then I wouldn't be surrounded by Topre, Model M, Model F, Alps, MX, NEC blue oval, etc. If I could eliminate one type I could make some room. 

I really don't want to though . I think I need to give it more time one on one. I really didn't like ergoclears at first, but they have grown to have a very special place in my heart. Is there a way to soften the landing on Topre or no?

I've read time and time again that HHKB is special due to the way it's mounted. Maybe it's all heresay.

[bmilcs]

Also, are there 50g Topre springs available for modification? I think that 50g would be the goldilocks for me.

if you do a dental band mod for your realforce, the force required to press down the key goes down quite a bit.

i've got a 45g RF 87U and a HHKB, both are dental band modded because i love the lighter press and the silence affect

a pack of dental bands are like $3 so if you're okay with modification then i think it could be a good test for yourself. you can unmod just as easily too.

Which size do you suggest then? I only want a mild difference. Nothing too big.

[mike52787]

topre sucks so stop trying

[digi]

topre sucks so stop trying

[Polymer]

The HHKB might feel a bit more forgiving because it isn't on a plate..but I don't know if it'll make a difference in your RSI...

In addition, if you need heavy access to those key combinations it will suck on the HHKB...

Are you trying to not bottom out?  It's a bit weird that you're having this problem...

[happylacquer]

Just sell your topres and buy a Unicomp, op. you'll be glad you did 

[ander]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...

Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.

[tp4tissue]

Did you learn typing on rubber membrane keyboards before going to mx, or did you have model m/ other mechanical.

[bmilcs]

Just looking at the board now, the OEM keycap profile isn't helping either. I very lightly rest my wrists on my wristpad all day everyday, so that extra height could be throwing me off too.

Is the HHKB Cherry profile?

[bmilcs]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...

Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.

I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.

[bmilcs]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...

Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.

I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.

Did you learn typing on rubber membrane keyboards before going to mx, or did you have model m/ other mechanical.

I used rubber membrane for 15-20 years before swapping to mechanical.

[tp4tissue]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...

Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.

I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.

it's not, your technique is the problem.

topre feels exactly like rubber membrane..  So your bad technique is being rekindled on the topre.

MX style boards retrain you to type with less force.

[SpAmRaY]

Just looking at the board now, the OEM keycap profile isn't helping either. I very lightly rest my wrists on my wristpad all day everyday, so that extra height could be throwing me off too.

Is the HHKB Cherry profile?

HHKB and realforce caps are the same profile.

Topre isn't for everyone, I find myself using it occasionally then switching to something else only to switch back later.

[bmilcs]

Right. I must say from switching back and forth, 55g is definitely a better typing experience. I've been trying to force the 45g on myself but it wasn't working.

I went ahead and ordered some heavy 3/16" dental bands to try out. The saga continues.

[bmilcs]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use...

Sorry to hear about the problem. If you have a history of RSI, though, I'm wondering why you didn't get one of the ergonomically weighted (45/35) boards, which the whole Realforce concept was actually about.

I don't know. For some reason, I don't think it's the weight that's the issue.

it's not, your technique is the problem.

topre feels exactly like rubber membrane..  So your bad technique is being rekindled on the topre.

MX style boards retrain you to type with less force.

Right. I know this is not good but realistically, I can't hold my heavy ass arms up for 16 hours a day lol. It's just not practical for me at least.

But I wish I could. I'm sure it'd help my overall posture, too. I have the typical desktop slouch.

[Joey Quinn]

Right. I must say from switching back and forth, 55g is definitely a better typing experience. I've been trying to force the 45g on myself but it wasn't working.

I went ahead and ordered some heavy 3/16" dental bands to try out. The saga continues.

Lightly lubed 55g on an HHKB is my preferred topre because 45g always feels too light and I was never a fan of the RF typing experience but the old 45g domes in HHKB Pro 1s feel great.

Not saying that you should go out and buy one but if you have the chance to try a Pro 1 you may like it more than the RF 45g.

[kmba]

Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.

[SpAmRaY]

Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.

You sure about that? I don't think topre caps are the same as Leopold step sculpture 2.

[nickheller]

I had assumed the mx leopold boards used step sculpture 2 (which is similar to cherry), and the topre ones used the same base caps as hhkb / rf.

[schoolbus]

Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.

This is false, Topre is more or less the same as OEM profile.

proof:

https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/#profiles

[Macsmasher]

I have an 87U 55g, an 87U variable and an HHKB. I like each for different reasons. However, my favorite is the 87U variable. If you are a touch typist, the variable weighting is perfect...for me anyway. In fact, it feels more balanced than uniform weighting simply because your weaker fingers don't have to work harder than your strong fingers. I'm not sure why the variable isn't liked around GH.


If you're wanting to try another Topre option, I'd recommend the variable over the HHKB.

[czarek]

Hhkb, Rf, and Leopold all use the same profile, which is close to but not the same as cherry. Leopold calls it step sculpture 2 I believe, but let's just call it topre profile.

This is false, Topre is more or less the same as OEM profile.

proof:

https://www.keychatter.com/keycaps/#profiles

Well the only reason why I prefer Cherry profile when using MX keyboards is because it closely resembles Topre standard profile. And while topre switches have their faults (like forcing to bottom out, and inducing RSI), their keycaps are fantastic.
BTW here is a photo where I tried to show you resemblence of Cherry and Topre profile. White keys is HHKB, Black keys is GH60 with Gateron EnjoyPBT (it also sports 62G Zealios ).

[tp4tissue]

Right. I know this is not good but realistically, I can't hold my heavy ass arms up for 16 hours a day lol. It's just not practical for me at least.

But I wish I could. I'm sure it'd help my overall posture, too. I have the typical desktop slouch.

Standing Desk,

Check out this Meerkat.. That Iconic Majestic Posture.    These are our roots..

[HenrikErlandsson]

But I'm finding the 45g & 55g Realforce 87U's to be harsh and cause me RSI after extended use. I don't know if it's the lack of sweet, sweet GMK keycaps or my beloved 62g thoroughly lubed ergoclears... but both 87u's are causing me issues. I think I attribute it to the PBT & plate-mounted switches, so I don't want to write Topre off just yet!

What do you suggest I do? Do I give in to the dreaded 60% HHKB and give that a go for a while? I am a firm believer in modification, and that may be why my KUL ES-87 has stood the test of time as boards pass in and out of my collection.

I am concerned mostly with the layout of the HHKB and the steep-ish angle of the case. I use F-keys constantly, as well as ctrl + shift + arrows and ctrl  + end, ctrl +pagedown, etc. Does anyone else here use this functionality constantly on their HHKB? I dread not loving and being less efficient with the topre life.

Thoughts?

Yep, I definitely favor PCB mounted before plate mounted, and ABS before PBT. I think it's the weight.

The actuation force is the combined weight of the required finger pressure plus the weight of the keycap.

A single PBT letter key weighs 1-2.5g, whereas ABS weighs .8-1g. A maximum of 3% less pressure difference might not be so much. But a bigger key on a single switch and you have to do some math, and you won't be able to find a switch with the exact actuation force you'd want for it to be consistent.

[chyros]

The more I use my RealForce, the less I like it. It was nice at first, but more and more I get the feeling they're just rubber domes. And not even the nicest rubber domes I know :/ .

[tp4tissue]

The more I use my RealForce, the less I like it. It was nice at first, but more and more I get the feeling they're just rubber domes. And not even the nicest rubber domes I know :/ .

Tp4 completely agrees.. Topre is weeb hype, 100%..  Topre IS rubber dome.. there's no differentiation whatsoever..

The force curve between each cup will be quite dissimilar relative to springs which are highly uniform.


Is topre a bad keyboard, NO,  should it be valued at more than $100 , Heck NO..

[nsmechkb]

Haven't read through everything in this thread, but it seems like the relative height of the board matters.  If you don't have a keyboard tray/drawer, maybe pick one up and try that.  When I switched my 45g Topre from on top of the desk to a keyboard tray a few inches lower, while keeping my chair at the same height, the domes felt less resistant.

But this is as anecdotal as it gets.

[tp4tissue]

Haven't read through everything in this thread, but it seems like the relative height of the board matters.  If you don't have a keyboard tray/drawer, maybe pick one up and try that.  When I switched my 45g Topre from on top of the desk to a keyboard tray a few inches lower, while keeping my chair at the same height, the domes felt less resistant.

But this is as anecdotal as it gets.

No, your description is on the money.


When you play piano for example.. It's important that the keys be slightly below your elbow. This allows you to utilize the momentum and weight of your arms, which reduces fatigue

A lower typing/mousing surface also relaxes your shoulders from having to lift your palm plane above the keyboard plane.

[Puddsy]

I didn't like Topre until I got my RF. It's not for everyone.

[swagpiratex]

i haven't posted on here for years, but if you're getting RSI typing on topre, your posture is incorrect..

[tp4tissue]

i haven't posted on here for years, but if you're getting RSI typing on topre, your posture is incorrect..

That's not true.


The cause of --certain types-- of RSI is related to having learned bad technique (holding, and over pressing) on rubber dome keyboards.. unrelated to sitting/standing/ positional posture

This goes away with MX, because it feels different enough to cause people to relearn typing, and type lighter.


If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre,  then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..

[swagpiratex]

All kinds of RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma. Typing technique can be adjusted rather easily (using a technique that hurts, vs one that doesn't hurt.)

Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.

[tp4tissue]

All kinds of RSI are caused by incorrect application of force, which is the cause of trauma. Typing technique can be adjusted rather easily (using a technique that hurts, vs one that doesn't hurt.)

Posture is more difficult to correct, especially if you aren't aware of the issue. And as the day goes on, also becomes to more difficult to self-correct since supporting skeletal muscles become fatigued as well. This is 100% related to posture, RSI is inherently a biomechanical problem.

There is no objective way to say one is harder than the other to do.

We can safely assume that either is do-able..


But this can not be posture related, because he's using 2 different keyboards on the same chair and table.


Topre caused some issues,   the mx does not.


Your analysis is incorrect.

[digi]

If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre,  then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..

HAHAHA

[tp4tissue]

If such a person with bad initial technique goes BACK to topre,  then that rubbery feel could cause him to Relapse..

HAHAHA

oh... i see ... yea.. bad phrasing..

But in context it's fine.. ..

if you remove the context ,, then it's bad

[noisyturtle]

I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.

[tp4tissue]

I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.

It's weeb-itis.

Obscures finger sensitivity.

[digi]

I'm convinced people who claim Topre feels drastically different to standard rubber domes either have broken fingers or are 100% about the hype.

Wrong + Wrong = Wrong