Why want to keep staggered alignment when building from scratch?

[akaibukai]

Hello,

I'm getting interested to touch type (switching to VIM too).
So I first switched to a mechanical keyboard a couple of years ago.
And I really felt the difference with those $10 keyboards...

Next I would probably switch to those optimized layouts..
But before diving to learn one particular layout (I'm still thinking about which one to choose and then stick with it) I'm interested to switch first to an ergonomic alignment.

Indeed, I think that an optimized layout (eg. dvorak) with those ****ty alignments seems not really relevant.
In contrast, an ergonomic alignment despite a wrong qwerty layout seems more efficient.
But I'm a true noob so I'm probably wrong..

Anyway, an ergonomic (aka ortholinear) alignment seems to be more important than the layout itself in the way to touch type and RSI reducing..

And when I saw that:


I wonder, why so many enthusiasts when going to build from scratch still stick to those last century construction-limited alignment?
I saw many DIY construction with those staggered alignment...
Some are still clever like this one https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88719.0 which beeing NOT ortholinear seems to be still "ergonomic" since the layout is at least symetrical and since the keys are then aligned with the arm on the left side...

Thank you.

Remark: I asked this question just to get some background about keyboards in general since I plan to build something like that https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84985.0

[tp4tissue]

Several reasons.

1.  They don't know any better.

------  Most people on geekhack are young g4m3r dude kids. They're just beginning their computer journey


2.  They don't actually use the keyboards enough for a superior layout/form factor to be worthwhile

------  You don't need to be very fast or proficient to chat up girlz on facebook.. it's not a requirement.


3.  They're lazy

-------   'Murica  ff.. yea.. !!


4.  They're already too invested in their mp3 collection to switch to flac

-------  #4 is the current most major situation here on Geekhack..

----------- When you spend $200-400 on keycap sets,  it's hard to go back and say, this is all **** and it's worthless..


5.  Ubiquity, flat qwerty keyboards are everywhere..

--------  Because typing mastery among the general population is still at a very low level, for the majority of humans, changing between very different layouts/ form factor may be impossible because their skill level is not high enough to cope with too large a differential .

[Joey Quinn]

Idk, I've never loved ortholinear even after using it full time for a while. The same idea could be applied to people still using qwerty when there are way better layout options like Dvorak.

[tp4tissue]

Idk, I've never loved ortholinear even after using it full time for a while. The same idea could be applied to people still using qwerty when there are way better layout options like Dvorak.

Dvorak has better left right balance,  but the row balance is definitlly not optimal. It's conceived under the wrong assumption that fingers rest on the middle row, which is not true. only 4 of the 8 fingers rest on the center row.

[Joey Quinn]

Idk, I've never loved ortholinear even after using it full time for a while. The same idea could be applied to people still using qwerty when there are way better layout options like Dvorak.

Dvorak has better left right balance,  but the row balance is definitlly not optimal. It's conceived under the wrong assumption that fingers rest on the middle row, which is not true. only 4 of the 8 fingers rest on the center row.

I've never met anyone who actually types like that. Do you, or do you just say it's better but not actually type that way?

[Tally810]

I didn't like the ortho layout.  I may give it another shot in the future but couldn't get used to it when I used it.  This stuff is all preference

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[tp4tissue]

I've never met anyone who actually types like that. Do you, or do you just say it's better but not actually type that way?

my fingers rest on awef jio;

[akaibukai]

Dvorak has better left right balance,  but the row balance is definitlly not optimal. It's conceived under the wrong assumption that fingers rest on the middle row, which is not true. only 4 of the 8 fingers rest on the center row.

my fingers rest on awef jio;

I think that tp4tissue hit the point...

I mean, the point that, since one is interested to optimize some aspect of daily typing (eg. the switches, the layout, etc.) why not to go fully that way?
Namely a better alignment which could be actually.. aligned, and moreover, at optimal distance against the fingers tips..
After all our fingers have all different lengths.. So some orthogonal layouts (like planck keyboard) seem not really the optimal results for me.

In my case when I type enough text in a row (which means at least 15 minutes only without any pause which happens sporadically since I'm not yet proficient enough to deliver code at the speed of though but often enough still 15 minutes is not that much) I began to feel some stress in my left pinky and ring fingers... Which disgust me to continue...
So even if dvorak is a great layout that taken into account some statistics (frequency, balance etc.), typing a or o with my left pinky on a regular staggered keyboard won't really help me.. And trying to keep at the same distance my pinky and other fingers on a planck keyboard too...

In conclusion I think that an optimal result for a comfortable intensive typing experience could be a combination of some aspects⁽¹⁾

Can anyone provide some readings about hand physiological aspects? I want to understand optimal hand rest position⁽²⁾ and optimal fingers course.


⁽¹⁾Which can be of various form: physiological, language dependent etc.)
Here is my attempt to list those aspects (everyone's welcomed to contribute)

• Keys positions
  
  • Vertical alignment (Y alignment): Should follow fingers alignment
  • Horizontal alignment (X alignment): Should follow hands curvature
  • Depth position (Z alignment): Should follow the fingers tip rest position (ie. fingers length and curvature)
  • Orientation (Key travel orientation): Should follow fingers tip travel (in relation to tip translation and phalanx rotation)
  • Key strokes length: Should follow fingers tip travel (in relation to tip translation and phalanx rotation too)
• Keys type
  
  • Keys feedback type: Should follow person's preference and feeling (tactile feedback or not, linear or not etc., maybe the most taste dependent parameter..)
  • Keys strength: Should follow fingers strength (eg. 40gr for pinkies and 60gr for indexes)
• Layout (language dependent)
  
  • Left-Right hands well-balanced: Ideally 50/50
  • Weak-Strong fingers distribution (I mean unbalanced usage of fingers. It's okey for strong fingers to type more often, but if keys force are distribute too, could be not relevant, here)
• Technological (this aspect matters about DIY approach)
  
  • Ease of implementation (eg. Cherry easier than Topre)
  • Keys operation: Detection distance and fiability, debouncing, etc.

I'm aware that some of these aspects depend of everyone taste, but I think that some should be empirical...

⁽²⁾ Which can be something like that if it was not non-proportional dramatization

[Polymer]

Have you tried using something like a variable Topre board?  It addresses this not by position but by how much force is required to press the keys for your pinky and ring finger.

It makes a significant difference...Pretty much if I'm planning on typing a lot, it is an absolute must for me now...

[davkol]

HEY GUYS Y R U YELLING ??!1!

[Findecanor]

I wonder, why so many enthusiasts when going to build from scratch still stick to those last century construction-limited alignment?

- It is what they are used to
- Keycaps sets supporting that layout are available.
- Not all "scratch-built" are actually scratch-built but made from existing switch-mounting plates.

Some are still clever like this one https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=88719.0 which beeing NOT ortholinear seems to be still "ergonomic" since the layout is at least symetrical and since the keys are then aligned with the arm on the left side...

That one is called "symmetric stagger".

Anyway, an ergonomic (aka ortholinear) alignment seems to be more important than the layout itself in the way to touch type and RSI reducing..

"Ortholinear" means that both rows and columns are organized in a grid with 90° angles.

Everyone types more or less different from everyone else but, I think that in general the hands are more straight over the keys when using columnar layouts and somewhat slanted when using a symmetric stagger.
So, with columnar layouts, hand-separation and tenting becomes more important. That property makes the columnar layouts with the keys close together in the same plane ("Truly Ergonomic", "TypeMatrix", "Plank" keyboard etc.) less ergonomic in my opinion.

The ortholinear flat keyboards don't take into account that different fingers have different lengths, making them less ergonomic than keyboards that do - by having either offset columnar layout (like ErgoDox, etc) or having a symmetric stagger. Symmetric stagger is actually very close to an offset columnar layout - for the middle, ring and pinky fingers, only that the keys are rotated.

Personally, I find that QWERTY is quite all right for the right hand because of its stagger.
If you would follow a typing school, with those designated columns for the left hand's fingers then the left wrist would be in an unnatural angle, yes. I think that most people who have learned to type fast/well on their own instead hold their left hands in a position that is more straight over the left side of the keyboard.

[tp4tissue]

@ akaibukai

The finger distance differential doesn't really matter.


For proper ergonomic seated position, the typing surface should be slightly below the elbow, which allows your arms to hang naturally.

Under this circumstance, all hand movement across the keyboard is controlled by upper arm movement. 


If you consider the length of the upper arm that's joined at the shoulder, the lever is very long..  less than 1 degree of movment is necessary to cover the finger distance traveled between key rows 'q' 'a' 'z'..


This is why finger distance optimization is completely unnecessary..



What is important is Tenting angle..   This is the exterior angle relative to the typing plane.


The wrist naturally rests at an angle of approximately 70 degrees.

You want a keyboard to be split and get as close to this number as possible.

 

The Ergodox split keyboard is the current market leader in this area..

[akaibukai]

Hi,

Yes, I think the same about those layout..
I just noticed that indeed "ortholinear" means 90° which is not better than qwerty (and maybe worse)..
I think to go with an Ergodox like configuration...
Thank you, for your answers, the reason are clearer now...

[Findecanor]

Do read the criticism that ErgoDox has got though, which boils down to two main issues:
- there is not much column offset ("column staggering")
- the thumb-keys are too far away.

[tp4tissue]

Do read the criticism that ErgoDox has got though, which boils down to two main issues:
- there is not much column offset ("column staggering")
- the thumb-keys are too far away.

column offset is FINE.. absolutely no problems..   as I've mentioned before,  key spacing and layout is a non-issue because of how long a human arm is.

thumb cluster... it only needs to be closer if you use the ergodox flat..  but since that's the wrong way to use it..
-----  Properly tented,  the ergodox thumb cluster is spaced fine..

[_rubik]

I certainly have a mix of boards. I think a lot of it stems from the legacy factor. Simply, I'm very accustomed to the layout. Similarly, most people don't really need to change their layout.

It wasn't really until I became concerned with work flow (my distribution and emacs configs for example...) that I saw the need to switch to a more ergonomic keyboard.