Massdrop and Input Club on Halo Trues

[shadowku]

This dropped earlier today on Input Club's White/Night-Fox Kickstarter Update #8:

We also have encountered some unexpected push-back from one of our former partners, Massdrop, on the topic of the Halo switches. We (Input Club) developed and invented the Halo switches, and worked with Massdrop to finance the physical tooling that allows them to go to mass production. We assigned Massdrop the patent rights in exchange for a royalty and a “license-back” that we believe allows us to source the switches for use in keyboards. But when we tried to order switches for the WhiteFox/NightFox, Massdrop would not let us source them. They then claimed to own the “Halo” name and asked us to give up the license-back altogether, so we would essentially lose all access to our own invention. This is very confusing for us at Input Club, as we are mostly a team of engineers and are not used to dealing with people who act in this manner. Unfortunately, we don’t have any more information right now as to how the situation will unfold.

Fortunately, we work very closely with our factory and suppliers and were able to discuss the best path forward. Many words were shared, but essentially the discussion concluded with us needing to develop a brand new switch in order to meet our commitments on the WhiteFox keyboard. This process will take approximately 5 weeks to get ready for production, and within that timeline we can still plan on fulfilling in December 2017 (though it may be late December!). These switches will still be 100% Cherry MX compatible and designed by us, but will be visually different from the older switches pictured below. 

I do understand MD's perspective, but it's still worsening my impression of them. I'm generally done with buying from them anyway, but they do have some compelling upcoming stuff like GMK Laser.

What do you guys think?

[SpAmRaY]

massdrop right now

EDIT: for those who don't know how to find info from OP https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lekashman/whitefox-mechanical-keyboard/posts/1964996

EDIT2: I totally didn't know the nightfox existed....that I would buy. 

[xondat]

Massdrop are *******s that screw people over for their own benefit. No surprise to hear another story like this.

[tp4tissue]

How is the halo switch different ,  I don't quite understand the description

[HotRoderX]

maybe this will help TP?

https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile/halo-true/

to me it sounds like they designed the stim from scratch perhaps? then designed special springs and what not?

[_PixelNinja]

People will raise their pitchforks and act offended and then a set like GMK Laser will come out and the New Shiny will make them forget their principles.

[Zobeid Zuma]

I do understand MD's perspective, but it's still worsening my impression of them.

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

[Rumblehotep]

Damn, I was really looking forward to these switches after hearing so much good stuff.
Will this forever taint them?

[packman86]

Damn, I was really looking forward to these switches after hearing so much good stuff.
Will this forever taint them?

Switches are going to be fine. It will just be a bit of an issue buying them.

[_PixelNinja]

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

Just to be clear — I'm not defending anyone here, but Matt3o/I:C has a history of getting f#@$ed over his/their creations. I highly respect the man, and it is indeed easy to speak from our position, but when this happens again and again something doesn't quite add up.

[Niomosy]

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

Just to be clear — I'm not defending anyone here, but Matt3o/I:C has a history of getting f#@$ed over his/their creations. I highly respect the man, and it is indeed easy to speak from our position, but when this happens again and again something doesn't quite add up.

Would you happen to have more info on this?  I haven't paid a lot of attention to the stuff Matt3o's been running or MassDrop in general as nothing has specifically appealed to me from there in some time.  Seems like there's a lot going on there.

[HotRoderX]

I do understand MD's perspective, but it's still worsening my impression of them.

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

There are a lot of questionable things here. The biggest being this isn't the first time I:C and Massdrop have had issues yet there are other creators that seem to have no issues at all with massdrop. There is also the fact that if I:C did have legal rights to the switches I would think ((Not a lawyer)) it would be as simple as proving that to Kailh to have the switches manufactured. It kinda leaves me to wonder if perhaps I:C didn't get the best legal advice! Are was to willing and eager to get things off the ground and signed them selfs into a hole. I am not accusing either side of wrong doing! Just that its really easy to blame Goliath in this story special since everyone loves David and he does so much. I think there needs to be more info produced before pitch fork and torches get raised.

two of the issues read about was the 2nd white fox drop was originally suppose to happen on MD.. but instead was taken to Kickstarter because agreements couldn't be made.
Then there was the profile keycaps Matt3o designed that are exclusive to massdrop after they funded them.

[tp4tissue]

maybe this will help TP?

https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/tactile/halo-true/

to me it sounds like they designed the stim from scratch perhaps? then designed special springs and what not?

Thx for link , hotroderx,  but this actually the description i read and didn't understand hahaha..


For example, " small amount of friction when you first press down "

--  Do they mean the slight forward rotation of the stem against the front of the housing, which causes (friction)

or

--  Do they mean a different stem that's more slippery ?




and " Modeled after topre force curve , "

--  Do they mean they've shifted the bump (max force) ~ 1mm  closer to the top ?

[chuckdee]

I do understand MD's perspective, but it's still worsening my impression of them.

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

There are a lot of questionable things here. The biggest being this isn't the first time I:C and Massdrop have had issues yet there are other creators that seem to have no issues at all with massdrop. There is also the fact that if I:C did have legal rights to the switches I would think ((Not a lawyer)) it would be as simple as proving that to Kailh to have the switches manufactured. It kinda leaves me to wonder if perhaps I:C didn't get the best legal advice! Are was to willing and eager to get things off the ground and signed them selfs into a hole. I am not accusing either side of wrong doing! Just that its really easy to blame Goliath in this story special since everyone loves David and he does so much. I think there needs to be more info produced before pitch fork and torches get raised.

Agreed.  You said what I've been posting.  Legalities aren't things that you believe, but things that you know.  If you don't know your rights, then you messed up somewhere.  And if they didn't go directly to MD to talk it over, but tried to go with Kailh, that's like going behind the former partner's back to get rights that don't necessarily belong to you by law.

[tigerali]

Agreed.  You said what I've been posting.  Legalities aren't things that you believe, but things that you know.  If you don't know your rights, then you messed up somewhere.  And if they didn't go directly to MD to talk it over, but tried to go with Kailh, that's like going behind the former partner's back to get rights that don't necessarily belong to you by law.

Contract law is complicated. There are often misunderstandings and things people didn't account for or count on, or there wouldn't be any contract attorneys.

[chuckdee]

Agreed.  You said what I've been posting.  Legalities aren't things that you believe, but things that you know.  If you don't know your rights, then you messed up somewhere.  And if they didn't go directly to MD to talk it over, but tried to go with Kailh, that's like going behind the former partner's back to get rights that don't necessarily belong to you by law.

Contract law is complicated. There are often misunderstandings and things people didn't account for or count on, or there wouldn't be any contract attorneys.

Agreed.  Which is why you *know* instead of *believe*.  They've said they had representation.  But still made the missteps.  There's more to this than what they released on Kickstarter.  That was just to get the villagers to get their pitchforks to try to force negotiation after the fact.  Not cool.

[zslane]

I do understand MD's perspective, but it's still worsening my impression of them.

I do not understand MD's perspective.  Either Input Club have a license to use the Halo trademark and patents (two different things, let's remember) or they don't.  I would suppose that they do, since it's pretty clear that they didn't have any intention of trading away all rights to use their own invention in their own product.

Even from a pure greed perspective, it seems boneheaded, because pretty soon nobody will be willing to work with Massdrop to produce anything.  Would you have your product made through Massdrop after hearing about this?

There are a lot of questionable things here. The biggest being this isn't the first time I:C and Massdrop have had issues yet there are other creators that seem to have no issues at all with massdrop. There is also the fact that if I:C did have legal rights to the switches I would think ((Not a lawyer)) it would be as simple as proving that to Kailh to have the switches manufactured. It kinda leaves me to wonder if perhaps I:C didn't get the best legal advice! Are was to willing and eager to get things off the ground and signed them selfs into a hole. I am not accusing either side of wrong doing! Just that its really easy to blame Goliath in this story special since everyone loves David and he does so much. I think there needs to be more info produced before pitch fork and torches get raised.

Agreed.  You said what I've been posting.  Legalities aren't things that you believe, but things that you know.  If you don't know your rights, then you messed up somewhere.  And if they didn't go directly to MD to talk it over, but tried to go with Kailh, that's like going behind the former partner's back to get rights that don't necessarily belong to you by law.

It sounds like I:C thought the language of the contract granted them the right to go directly to the switch manufacturer, while MassDrop rejects that interpretation. It's depressing that we need contract lawyers to get involved twice in every business deal: first to draw up the contracts, and then again to interpret those contracts once the inevitable disputes arise.

[Zobeid Zuma]

It sounds like I:C thought the language of the contract granted them the right to go directly to the switch manufacturer, while MassDrop rejects that interpretation. It's depressing that we need contract lawyers to get involved twice in every business deal: first to draw up the contracts, and then again to interpret those contracts once the inevitable disputes arise.

Or else do what they're apparently planning to do, and just invent another new switch that doesn't infringe.  They claim it will be better and result in only minimal delays anyhow.

[HotRoderX]

Agreed.  You said what I've been posting.  Legalities aren't things that you believe, but things that you know.  If you don't know your rights, then you messed up somewhere.  And if they didn't go directly to MD to talk it over, but tried to go with Kailh, that's like going behind the former partner's back to get rights that don't necessarily belong to you by law.

Contract law is complicated. There are often misunderstandings and things people didn't account for or count on, or there wouldn't be any contract attorneys.

Agreed.  Which is why you *know* instead of *believe*.  They've said they had representation.  But still made the missteps.  There's more to this than what they released on Kickstarter.  That was just to get the villagers to get their pitchforks to try to force negotiation after the fact.  Not cool.

This is what I am thinking also manipulation of the community in a dispute knowing that the outcome will be favorable for them regardless. There thought of highly in the community where MD is not well liked by a lot.. there also the fact this tactic has been used successfully on multiple occasions on social media if not mistaken.. for people to attack larger companies with reasonable success. Its kinda the way things go! Honestly the longer IC waits to respond to things! The more it feels like tactical manipulation. MD has to wait its obvious there a multi million dollar company.. so coming out and making a statement .. means giving someone documents to hold them to regardless of wording. This also like you said forces MD to possibly back down as they most likely wouldn't be able to sale Halo's in a group buy as is now! Which could lead to IC didn't know what they where signing finally figured it out! Decided if they couldn't have it the way they wanted.. then neither could MD. As I stated else where its really strange other creators/Vendors don't seem to have the issues IC does with Massdrop!

[shadowku]

I don't necessarily think I:C is trying to make MD look bad (it is a bit suggestive), but it does seem like they were not well informed enough about their own contract with MD.

If MD does block I:C on the Halo True, then I'm not too sure how the Halo True will fair without I:C's support and it may not develop as the community uses them because it will take several iterations to make it better. I:C's new switch would likely become more prominent. If things with MD are solved and we get the Halo Trues in the Whitefox, then it will probably be business as usual after some adjustments to either the contract or their processes.

Hopefully going forward, I:C commits more of their future projects with Kickstarter or some other crowd-funding platform since working with MD isn't smooth for everyone. I'm happy with what's happening with the Whitefox and I'm impressed with their PBT cherry-profile keycaps. If they made the keycaps fit more general boards and made them in multiple colors, I'd be very happy.

[_haru]

Official update from Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/talk/2342/massdrop-halo-switch-update

Thank you to joey for sharing the link.

[SpAmRaY]

massdrop right now (still fits)

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[tp4tissue]

0000

[chuckdee]

I don't necessarily think I:C is trying to make MD look bad (it is a bit suggestive)...

That ship has sailed from the update... it was exactly what it seemed like- a bullying tactic.

[lekashman]

This is the larger thread as well - posted this on Reddit and in another thread.

We will be going through this with legal counsel and posting a response as quickly as is possible. We have several disagreements with statements made here, and depending on what documents we are able to share, it is our belief that you will agree with our position.

However, that is a lot to assume, so please let us time to meet with our lawyer and post a full and accurate response.

[tp4tissue]

This is the larger thread as well - posted this on Reddit and in another thread.

We will be going through this with legal counsel and posting a response as quickly as is possible. We have several disagreements with statements made here, and depending on what documents we are able to share, it is our belief that you will agree with our position.

However, that is a lot to assume, so please let us time to meet with our lawyer and post a full and accurate response.

Absolutely,  take your time.

The only reason for the new thread, is to remind the community, that we can only remain IMPARTIAL,  until more information comes forward



Because there is a Community Reputation at stake here..    It is unfair to run this -Current- thread on this matter, because the Opening post, Title of this thread and Portrayal of facts are highly polarizing...


We wait !!...

[shadowku]

I made this thread to discuss the only information we had, and as a forum, it's absolutely fine to be opinionated here. It made no sense to discuss this on the comments of the Kickstarter update because the sentiment there was far more polarizing.
Anyhow, this thread has served it's purpose and perhaps we should continue this on a new thread? Or should I change the title? Currently it's just clickbait. 

[tp4tissue]

I made this thread to discuss the only information we had, and as a forum, it's absolutely fine to be opinionated here. It made no sense to discuss this on the comments of the Kickstarter update because the sentiment was far more polarizing there.
Anyhow, this thread has served it's purpose and perhaps we should continue this on a new thread? Or should I change the title? Currently it's just clickbait. 

Tp4 has no clear opinion of user -shadowku-..  He could very well be a candid new-member of Gekhak,  OR a sleeper agent for Input_Club..


That said.. @ shadowku,   I apologize if you found my language distasteful..  But there was too much of a slant...


No ill will..  all the best..





/ Conspiracy thread ?

Did input club pay off -shadowku- with free halo switches ?

Did Massdrop pay off -Tp4- with m0ar Ergodox ?

hahahaha

[shadowku]

Yeah, I do realize that I might have been playing into I:C's plan if they wanted the rile up the community, again, that's speculation. But maybe this even contributed to MD publishing their rebuttal. Either way, I'm happy that's there's public progress.

I do assure you, I am in no way affiliated with I:C or MD Lol..
I just want my Nightfoxes..

[tp4tissue]

Yeah, I do realize that I might have been playing into I:C's plan if they wanted the rile up the community, again, that's speculation. But maybe this even contributed to MD publishing their rebuttal. Either way, I'm happy that's there's public progress.

I do assure you, I am in no way affiliated with I:C or MD Lol..
I just want my Nightfoxes..

//Scandalous !!!

//Who are you Protecting !!!

hahahahahahaha. /kidn'

Let's wait this out

[dante]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Kailh go "We are no longer selling to either MD OR IC; ya'll cray-cray!"

[SpAmRaY]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Kailh go "We are no longer selling to either MD OR IC; ya'll cray-cray!"

Nah they'll sell to both just use a different name and color for the stems....

[dante]

Wouldn't be surprised to see Kailh go "We are no longer selling to either MD OR IC; ya'll cray-cray!"

Nah they'll sell to both just use a different name and color for the stems....

Zeal is in a corner, LOLing like Cersei "Let them and the Dead fight it out while we retake the kingdom"

[_haru]

New update: https://input.club/official-halo-switch-statement/

Again, thank you joey.

[hydrochloride]

New update: https://input.club/official-halo-switch-statement/

Again, thank you joey.

So mucking up the waters more.

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