Author Topic: Computer problem - system builders input requested (problem found, /thread)  (Read 8592 times)

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Oh crap, really?  I wish you'd said that days ago, I would have written it off.

I've been setting the RAM underclocked to the standard 1600mhz to ensure it's not a factor, tested it using memtest at this speed but that was in another mobo with another CPU.  I guess I could check it using a graphics card with the dodgy CPU, but it takes so long and it's prime95 blend stable so I'm happy it's good. I have swapped in another set on both boards too, just in case.

 I have two of everything (mobo, PSU and RAM) so the only common factor is the CPU.  But I still don't see how it could have been damaged as it appears to have been, especially if it's not microcode.

Also don't forget this is not a new build, the iGPU worked consistently through all my attempts at overclocking using the same hardware last year so I wouldn't have said it was overly sensitive.
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 March 2018, 02:40:25 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline Leslieann

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It being the Igpu is a new one for me.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Well seems there was new microcode released on the 6th, I'll download that and mod it into the old mobo's stable BIOS as I now have a spare to chip to hotswap.  Can't do any harm, apart from the speed hit...

If you weren't overseas I'd happily send you the CPU and RAM in the ITX to play with Leslieann, but you are :(
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Offline Leslieann

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Well seems there was new microcode released on the 6th, I'll download that and mod it into the old mobo's stable BIOS as I now have a spare to chip to hotswap.  Can't do any harm, apart from the speed hit...

If you weren't overseas I'd happily send you the CPU and RAM in the ITX to play with Leslieann, but you are :(
Thanks, but I have too much hardware sitting around as it is, nothing that powerful, but plenty nonetheless.

I'm sure you can find someone over there who can really put it to good use. Maybe have them then kick down their old system, and on down the line (that tends to be how it works with my family and friends and my old hardware unless I sell it).
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Can't find the new microcode, looks like I'll have to wait for someone to release a BIOS with it in.

The few people I might consider gifting such nice hardware to don't need an i5 let alone a 7 and, probably because of this, all use laptops/tablets.  No point selling 'maybe broken' hardware so for now I shall wait impatiently...
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Offline tp4tissue

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Can't find the new microcode, looks like I'll have to wait for someone to release a BIOS with it in.

The few people I might consider gifting such nice hardware to don't need an i5 let alone a 7 and, probably because of this, all use laptops/tablets.  No point selling 'maybe broken' hardware so for now I shall wait impatiently...

Send it to Mom_orange..  or Dad_orange


It's probabaly better than their pentium 4.. !!

Offline nugglets

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I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

Since OP said they like theories, I'm going to agree with this one and add something that seems to get overlooked for Haswell/Broadwell: They have integrated voltage regulation. When this starts to fail, some truly bizarre things can happen that most of us aren't used to associating with CPU trouble. I've not had this particular problem, but considering that the CPU itself has separate regulation for the iGPU (to enable control over the power to the iGPU independently of the other systems) it is not out of the realm of reason that this is your point of failure.

The how and why of this problem rearing it's head when it has could just be coincidence relating to time, power cycling, or any number of things.

Offline tp4tissue

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I think it's the voltages being changed by XMP that are messing with the iGPU. It sounds like the update stopped the iGPU from working with higher voltages. So now, when you enable XMP, it changes the voltage settings and stops iGPU from working.

But that's just my theory.

Since OP said they like theories, I'm going to agree with this one and add something that seems to get overlooked for Haswell/Broadwell: They have integrated voltage regulation. When this starts to fail, some truly bizarre things can happen that most of us aren't used to associating with CPU trouble. I've not had this particular problem, but considering that the CPU itself has separate regulation for the iGPU (to enable control over the power to the iGPU independently of the other systems) it is not out of the realm of reason that this is your point of failure.

The how and why of this problem rearing it's head when it has could just be coincidence relating to time, power cycling, or any number of things.

I'm actually not sure at what point orange upgraded the microcode. I thought it's a separate download from intel direct

But overall, The microcode shouldn't have anything to do with the voltage, that definitely wouldn't have been changed, because it's a fixed valued mathematically determined FOR the hardware, they would never consider changing it unless it affected the durability/ reliability of the silicon


Offline suicidal_orange

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Haha, you're close tp4!  Mum has a silent i3 6??? box which is more than fast enough to play solitaire, I bought that and retired her C2D when my 2600k mobo died as she wouldn't be getting a hand down anytime soon.

Dad's long gone, sister has no interest in computers and does everything on her phone and my cousin, aunty and gran all have laptops so there is literally no-one to give it to :(

@nugglets interesting theory.  I wonder what voltages the previous owner's 4770 made the BIOS use before I pressed save...  If it had permanently failed that would be more understandable than it working twice not quite randomly on the new board which gave me hope.  I wonder if there are iGPU auto-overclock options on either board that could get it working...  Thanks for the idea!
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Offline suicidal_orange

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I'm not 100% sure when the microcode update happened either but it was in Windows updates at the time I was doing them.  This is abnormal but so is a huge flaw like Spectre!

I have a bad habit of installing updates and drivers at the same time rather than rebooting every time it asks.  Usually works OK, if not just reinstall them and it's not really a problem.  I pressed restart after installing the iGPU and chipset drivers and some windows updates and that was the last I saw from the iGPU on that board.  I then updated the BIOS hoping it would match and work but it didn't.  Then I downgraded the BIOS and it didn't boot at all, until I bought a replacement chip with the old version on.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Haha, you're close tp4!  Mum has a silent i3 6???

Dad's long gone, sister has no interest in computers and does everything on her phone and my cousin, aunty and gran all have laptops so there is literally no-one to give it to :(


Did ah...

Did u talk to Mom_Orange about going 100% Veggie @ 10% fats.. !!



Laptop-generation.. sheesh, wait till they hit their 30s, and can't see worth a damn on a 15 inch screen.

Ya'll remember 15 inch?  that's PRE 2000s

Offline suicidal_orange

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Nope, not going to happen.  As she puts it "I don't drink or smoke so I'm not giving up my last fun in life - unhealthy food".  After a life of eating western crap-food she too would rather die than suffer the inevitable brain rot it will cause.

I remember, and I'd take an old 15 inch 1024x768 over the new physically shorter 1280x800 wide-screen budget laptop crap any day!
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Offline tp4tissue

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Nope, not going to happen.  As she puts it "I don't drink or smoke so I'm not giving up my last fun in life - unhealthy food".  After a life of eating western crap-food she too would rather die than suffer the inevitable brain rot it will cause.

I remember, and I'd take an old 15 inch 1024x768 over the new physically shorter 1280x800 wide-screen budget laptop crap any day!

The smallest one should go these days imho is 40 inch..


Offline suicidal_orange

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There's a hole in my desk for a monitor and my 20 inch 4:3 fits that hole width ways.  When the monitor dies I can either find two widescreens to fill the hole better or I'll probably have to rearrange my entire room - really not looking forward to that day either way.
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Offline tp4tissue

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There's a hole in my desk for a monitor and my 20 inch 4:3 fits that hole width ways.  When the monitor dies I can either find two widescreens to fill the hole better or I'll probably have to rearrange my entire room - really not looking forward to that day either way.

Build a standing desk on wheelz,  Wallmount 3x, 75 inch tvs..

Stand back 10 feet.

Free yo'self..

Offline suicidal_orange

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There isn't a wall in this room big enough for three 75 inchers!

Back on topic - mobo A doesn't like hot swapping BIOS chips, pull it out and it crashes.  No iGPU overclocking options either, that must have been mobo alpha (R.I.P.)
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Offline Carcharocles

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Is there any chance the problematic microcode update was pushed on January 4th of this year? And how soon after that update did you start having problems?
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Let's assume it was.  The failure was instant - it worked using standard VGA drivers, then I installed the proper driver, rebooted and it hasn't worked since (apart from twice when the second board probably thought it was another CPU - first time I turned it off, second I went into bios and saved and it died...)

Whatever you're going to suggest is worth a try!
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Offline Leslieann

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Was the second board on the same windows install as before or had up to date drivers on it?
UFI boards can be controlled through drivers, so I;m wondering if when you booted it up, in installed updated firmware onto the new board.

Keep in mind, I have no idea if this is what happened, just a theory, but it makes me wonder if a fresh board with an older copy of windows, or linux would allow it to work. At least until that board also got updated. If that is the case, it makes me also wonder if you could push a different microcode update into the board using Linux, if there is one.
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Offline Leslieann

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So I got to thinking about this more and decided to do some follow up.

One of the reasons Intel told vendors to stop installing the meltdown and specter patch was it was causing system reboots. What was less covered is that it has also been causing some systems to not boot at all (usually AMD).  While everyone talks CPU on this, Nvidia released a Specter patch for their GPUs because while not vulnerable, it was an attack pathway or something, so there is a connection.

Unfortunately if it is this, other than trying a fresh Linux install or a fresh windows Install, I'm not entirely sure how to go about fixing it. If you have a spare drive it may be worth a shot, I know Mint will install microcode upon boot, maybe do an install with a dedicated card, then reboot with the igpu and dedicated removed or just see if you can get both sources to output video. At least that would tell you it's not damaged and may get a fix soon.

Looks like Microsoft has gotten pissed at vendors for not issuing code updates and is now putting updates directly on their site for end users. May be worth checking out.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3259924/security/microsoft-will-host-intels-spectre-and-meltdown-patches.html
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Offline suicidal_orange

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It stopped working in the second board before I tried booting windows, one thing I didn't ask was what OS the previous owner was running but it was a gaming rig so windows and I'd imagine it was up to date.  Though if the box was replaced a month before it was put up for sale it might not be up to date enough...

Interesting find on the AMD thing - so many people asking the same two simple questions makes it hard to find anything useful about iGPUs not working.

I was looking for firmware updates for Linux but the last ones were from November.  No harm in trying a live DVD though - something to do tonight.  Thanks for looking :thumb:
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Offline Leslieann

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If I have some more spare time I'll see what else I can dig up.
Pretty sure Mint had one for December or January, I can check later tonight.

Again, I don't claim to know that much about all of this and like you said, the net is flooded with info at the moment with any keywords related to it. I'm almost thinking that limiting the search to more tech oriented sites may help, Puget systems, Bleeping computer, sites of that nature as opposed to just randomly letting Google pull from places like Microsoft's support forums which can be flooded with non-tech people asking about normal issues.


You know...
That other board, while odd it worked then didn't, that may be the best clue and I should have caught it before.
Something in the bios is reacting to the processor and flipping something the wrong way. I would bet if you install a different chip, go into the bios, save, then swap your chip back in, it would work again. At least until you went in and saved again. It could be something is wrong with your chip, but it could also be that your model is an oddball and triggering something. Maybe your processor is just not well supported or Intel sent out wrong info... I'm not sure,  but instead of looking at microcode and such (even though that may have caused it), add your specific processor to the search (leave off the I7), that may narrow it down enough to find the cause. Not sure about you, but all my searches have been Intel and the gpu, and never specified the processor itself.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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I was looking on the Intel download site, has old versions but no newer.  Wouldn't rule out a backdoor distribution channel to distro makers much like hardware vendors though.

The CPU's name is equally bogged down with endless two paragraph mini 'reviews' detailing how it's too late, low clocked and pointless, same with the codename broadwell.  The main problem is people believed these reviews and hardly anyone bought the CPU and those who did are gamers so no iGPU!  Motherboard support is rubbish but Asus is supposedly the least bad... 

I did post a 'WT buy/borrow s1150 CPU' thread here to find something to test with but unsurprisingly no replies, $75 for a used celeron on eBay is not happening either.

I'm too tired to look tonight and tomorrow is mother's day so this will have to wait - Patch Tuesday is this week, isn't it? :))
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Woke up to an obvious thought - they probably released a Mint ISO with the 'broken' January firmware, which Intel literally pulled so it disappeared from their site.  Hopefully Mint weren't so thorough in their cleanup...
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Offline Leslieann

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Try a few of the various distros, if not Mint, I bet a few of them have it still in them.
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Offline suicidal_orange

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New BIOS from ASRock - looked like a good start to the day!

After messing about with resetting and changing BIOS options, deleting devices, and un/reinstalling drivers it hasn't changed anything relevant but I guess I should be happy now that my graphically challenged CPU runs slower too.  Just in case someone develops an exploit...
« Last Edit: Tue, 13 March 2018, 06:53:52 by suicidal_orange »
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Offline suicidal_orange

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So was anyone still going for spontaneous hardware failure?  How about a real, physical break?  Well congratulations if you were because that's what the problem is!  The reflection is of a scratched black box with white writing, note the dodginess in the bottom left corner of the big chip :'(



Now will it still work at all once I reattach the heatspreader or has my curiosity killed it completely :-X
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Offline tp4tissue

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what did you use to delid ?

You might've damaged it as you delidded.


Using it temporarily is fine with just thermal paste between the die and ihs, but you will need to get Liquid Ultra if you want to use it long term.

Offline suicidal_orange

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I have a 3D printed tool, the original delid was done on day two after a night of stress testing to confirm not DOA.

Surprisingly it just passed the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool with a max temp of 45* C so I'm going to leave it as-is for now.  I remember saying I'd check back how the gelid lasted when I did it, but it never made the year...
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Offline tp4tissue

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I have a 3D printed tool, the original delid was done on day two after a night of stress testing to confirm not DOA.

Surprisingly it just passed the Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool with a max temp of 45* C so I'm going to leave it as-is for now.  I remember saying I'd check back how the gelid lasted when I did it, but it never made the year...


Try polishing off the black rubber from the ihs and the chip.. maybe it needs to make better contact

is that left corner warped ? can you feel it with your finger.

Offline suicidal_orange

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Yes the bottom corner is cracked - no doubt about that.  If it can run prime95 for six hours I'll call myself lucky and assume that's the corner the GPU is hidden in but I can't see that happening.

One strange quirk, Core Temp (which has always seemed reasonably accurate over recent testing) is showing the CPU using around 90W.  It's not overclocked and it's not using the iGPU so shouldn't be close to the 65W it's spec'd at...
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Offline tp4tissue

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Yes the bottom corner is cracked - no doubt about that.  If it can run prime95 for six hours I'll call myself lucky and assume that's the corner the GPU is hidden in but I can't see that happening.

One strange quirk, Core Temp (which has always seemed reasonably accurate over recent testing) is showing the CPU using around 90W.  It's not overclocked and it's not using the iGPU so shouldn't be close to the 65W it's spec'd at...

coretemp just guesses. .


Offline suicidal_orange

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It does, but usually it's pretty good while today it's hopeless and getting worse - hovering around 98W now :))

45 minutes in, not dead yet...
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Offline Leslieann

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I remember the days of exposed core Athlons.
While I only killed one by dropping a heat sink on it, we saw a lot of dead processors, enough that I refuse to delid.

Though when I think about it, considering how much hardware I've killed over the years, through watercooling, overclocking or other problems, you would think I'd be more willing.  :))

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Offline suicidal_orange

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Yes good times, the old 1ghz AXIA with the 100 -> 133mhz guaranteed OC for starters followed by the XPs with their laser cut bridges to play with.  Can't say I miss the whine of a 60mm Delta fan though!  I never managed to crush an Athlon yet I've managed this with the heatspreader reattached and the chip mounted and powered on - still can't believe it.

Seems this CPU is still good at stock clocks but the new BIOS doesn't like even the slightest OC with powersaving enabled and the last downgrade failed and even if it did work I still don't have a GPU.  Having looked I'd be better off buying a Ryzen APU but again I'm reminded of my stupid decision to buy this Ill fated junk which was the last hoorah of DDR3, so the APU is not as cheap as it should be.  I could always pay to downgrade to a 4xxx?!
« Last Edit: Sun, 01 April 2018, 19:35:10 by suicidal_orange »
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
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SA Hack'd by Geeks     
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MX Brown 30g, HHKBish
Vortex OEM PBT
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Haha, my first family computer was a slotted Pentium 2.  I never even took it out of the slot :-[
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod
MX Brown 30g, HHKBish
Vortex OEM PBT
for See how the other half lives challenge!

Offline Leslieann

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You have no idea the hatred I have for slotted, such an inefficient setup for single processor systems.
On the other hand, made for some really cool and really cheap dual processor systems, many of which could overclock like crazy.
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Offline Blaise170

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I don't think I've ever owned a slotted nor delidded. I always figured that I could spend $50 on the parts for delidding properly, or I could just spend that $50 on a better CPU...  :))
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Offline suicidal_orange

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Good thinking, except there was no better CPU for the job at time of purchase.  There is now the Ryzen APUs have been released but that's a year late!
120/100g linear Zealio R1  
GMK Hyperfuse
'Split everything' perfection  
MX Clear
SA Hack'd by Geeks     
EasyAVR mod
MX Brown 30g, HHKBish
Vortex OEM PBT
for See how the other half lives challenge!

Offline Leslieann

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I don't think I've ever owned a slotted nor delidded. I always figured that I could spend $50 on the parts for delidding properly, or I could just spend that $50 on a better CPU...  :))
Agreed... To a point.
Very few things really max out current hardware... Not because of technology, but because what would be the point of designing something that doesn't work with current hardware, or worse, if it can't run on high end, imagine how bad it would be on low end.

On the other hand, some people just "NEED" all they can get regardless of cost and there are some use cases where it is beneficial such as 3d renders and video editing. If you are doing that on a regular basis though, I HIGHLY recommend having a second machine, being able to offload your long term workload to a secondary system is fantastic, even if it's a bit slower since it leaves your primary system free.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | GMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)