Author Topic: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems  (Read 39161 times)

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Offline reavertm

  • Posts: 3
  • Location: Poland
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #400 on: Wed, 10 October 2018, 15:35:58 »
In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.

No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).

Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.

Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.

For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.

'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 October 2018, 15:41:49 by reavertm »

Offline portbaron

  • Posts: 230
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #401 on: Wed, 10 October 2018, 15:56:36 »
In my case (recently received new retooled Hako Violets) - there are no stress marks when I'm trying my old https://deskthority.net/wiki/NTC_KB-6251 keycaps on those Box switches.

No stress marks, all keycaps right away audibly crack on first insertion.
I notified KBDfans about the problem, they said they will take it to Kailh.. (again..).

Those stupid ****ing nubs need to go.

Manually removing them with file - while works - is hell of time consuming, considering I have 104 keyboard..
PCB mounting is fine, they fit well in GMMK hot-swap sockets at least.

For sure I'm not going to bother with Kailh Box anytime again until they are confirmed to go around 1.26+/-0.2mm.

'Loose' switch (which can be secured with plastic foil if needed) is always better than switch that breaks keycaps.
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.
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Offline KHAANNN

  • Posts: 1623
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #402 on: Thu, 11 October 2018, 07:06:25 »
I was going to check on this thread, and see whether we can get our old Navy's replaced (everyone talks about new, no one talks about replacements, which is a bit weird too)

But I see now that new ones suck too

So a TL;DR: We file both X/Y axises now?
Endgame | 1.25 Cmd for GMK Sets Please | Or Just 1.25 Blanks Like The Good Old Days

Offline killyou

  • Posts: 202
  • Location: Poland
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #403 on: Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:03:31 »
When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).
« Last Edit: Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:05:02 by killyou »

Offline Starius

  • Posts: 224
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #404 on: Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:29:34 »
When I've mentioned the matter of faulty switches replacement somewhere over geekhack and reddit I got ****ted over by "satisfied" customers that I should be glad that they acknowledge the problem and that's it. I got downvoted to the oblivion and that is weird especially that people had expensive keysets broken because of that. This thread constantly reaffirms my policy to stick with ZealPC. (this post was typed on freshly installed Tealios).

That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit.  I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible.   One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing. 

In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches!  They feel great!  If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore.  But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though. 

As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock.  And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all.  Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more. 
By the way, I've been using Tealios on my Tokyo60 since I got it. They are quite nice, aren't they?

Offline TunnaTown

  • Posts: 29
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #405 on: Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:52:23 »
That is very disheartening to hear about your experience there on Reddit.  I don't use it much myself, but my understanding was the upvote/downvote system was a pretty good method for making relevant information and concerns accessible.   One wouldn't assume there would be zealotry type factions abusing that system for keyboard switch discussions, but I guess we now live in a world where every single topic is polarizing. 

It is. Some people just can't be excellent to others.

In my mind, the only reason this discussion about the Box stem issue is so big is because of the fact that those box switches are damn good switches!  They feel great!  If they didn't, this flaw would barely be worth discussing and people would move on and not bother with them anymore.  But the fact they feel so good to use but have this one terrible flaw leaves us general users at a bit of a impasse.
Something has to change though. 

You hit the nail right on its head. The BOX switches were game changers. They were/are loved for their feels and rightfully so. It's just those pesky nubs....

Online Rumblehotep

  • Posts: 272
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #406 on: Thu, 11 October 2018, 12:10:24 »
As for myself personally, I have come to the conclusion that I just cant use any of my box switch stock.  And won't be getting anymore until this keycap stress/cracking issue is solved once and for all.  Should that day ever come, I'll be happy to get more. 
It's a hard truth to learn but this is my feeling as well.  Still have a couple boards left to un-box but damned if I'm going to ruin more than one expensive keyset.
I love box navies so much though that I'm just going to keep that board and use stock filco caps which I have several bags of by now.

Offline ideus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #407 on: Fri, 12 October 2018, 11:49:39 »
I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.

Offline LevelSteam

  • Posts: 121
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #408 on: Sat, 20 October 2018, 14:31:33 »
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
205804-0
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?

Offline WheresTheSNES

  • Posts: 55
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #409 on: Sat, 20 October 2018, 15:16:49 »
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?

That sucks.  I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika.  Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.

Offline portbaron

  • Posts: 230
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #410 on: Sat, 20 October 2018, 15:29:35 »
Not related to Box Switches but I ran into this today when putting my Maxkey Calm Depths on my Tealios.
(Attachment Link)
Sorry for the ****ty cell phone pic, but if you look closely you can see the stress marks on the stem. I noticed when putting the caps on some of them felt pretty tight, and when I popped them off I saw that they had similar stress marks to those produced by Box Navy switches on my GMK Laser set. Took the calipers to the Tealios and found that everything was well within spec too.

Anyone else run into this with Maxkey sets?
Yes.
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Offline LevelSteam

  • Posts: 121
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #411 on: Sat, 20 October 2018, 19:18:15 »
That sucks.  I just ordered some Zealios for my Serika.  Kind of just seems like keycap swapping is a bad idea.

It should be ok. I've used Zeal/Gateron switches with GMK caps before and never had a problem, and like I mentioned the Zeal Tealios were within spec when I measured them. It seems more like a Maxkey problem in my case so I wouldn't worry about it. Plus it wasn't every key either, so my guess is that there was some variation in the stems.

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2372
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #412 on: Sat, 20 October 2018, 19:30:01 »
Iíve had a new GMK set on retooled box reds for almost a week now.  No signs of stress marks or cracks yet. I got them directly from novelkeys
:)

Offline upintheclouds

  • Posts: 14
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #413 on: Wed, 31 October 2018, 14:52:51 »
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.

Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?

I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2372
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #414 on: Wed, 31 October 2018, 14:58:01 »
Ya filing works but it's miserable. There is no question they stress them, I just want to know how far it will go over time. I wonder what the purpose behind the nubs was to begin with.

Any updates on stretch/crack damage to your test caps sitting on the retooled BOXes?

I'm trying to decide whether to use, file, or dump a set of retooled BOX switches I planned to put into a gift build.

Day 15 I think now.  Still absolutely no signs of stress:
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/166?u=pixelpusher
« Last Edit: Wed, 31 October 2018, 15:14:36 by pixelpusher »
:)

Offline lutchbu

  • Posts: 8
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #415 on: Wed, 31 October 2018, 18:51:55 »
Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.


IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0

I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

Offline Starius

  • Posts: 224
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #416 on: Wed, 31 October 2018, 19:41:12 »
Hi guys!
Two weeks ago I made a little tool to fix the BOX switches I have. It got some attention on reddit so I just started an IC.
Show Image


IC thread: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97974.0

I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

Thanks for sharing that here.   
I am definitely interested!

Offline BigBlackThock

  • Posts: 20
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #417 on: Sat, 03 November 2018, 20:56:13 »
Yeah, so when box switches came out I thought I would never use another switch again. My latest board is fitted with zilents , unfortunately, because I simply can't risk ruining a brand new set of Honeywell. I know, complaining about using zilents probably sounds ridic, but I really feel like I had to settle. So sad.

Offline Zuology

  • Posts: 195
  • Location: Mass-hole
  • Why does this rabbit-hole have so many side-quests
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #418 on: Sat, 03 November 2018, 21:13:31 »
Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.
More
75%: Scarlet Bandana (TBD) | Singa75 Polycarb (TBD) | SKB75 (TBD) | YMD75 (Box Navy) | XD84 (Outemu Ice) | Plum84 (BKE Redux Heavy)
TKL: ALF X1.1 SE (TBD) | LZ Iron White (TBD) | Fox Labs Orange (TBD) | Alu WASDv2 (Cherry Green) | MechkeyAlpha MA87 (Kailh Box Burnt Orange) | Archon RE:AL Superior EX (Nopre 65g)
Full+: Clueboard Double 1800 (Vint Clears) | IBM Model M | IBM Model F XT

Offline blakstealth

  • Posts: 22
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #419 on: Sat, 03 November 2018, 22:37:17 »
Check out the stem shaver project that's on GH and Reddit. Someone is working on producing a tool to shave the nubs down to within tolerances, essentially a sharpened metal stem/bit.
like the guy above?  :)

Offline nerium

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #420 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:11:49 »
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)
RAMA M60-A Mist w/ BOX Royals | RAMA M65-A Mist (unbuilt) | HHKB Pro 2 | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S | CM Novatouch | Poker II w/ MX Clears | Pok3r w/ MX Blues | SA Godspeed | SA Industrial | SA Ice Caps | SA Modern Selectric | DSA Dolch | GMK 3Run | Hidden Labs Thermochromic | Hot Keys Project Neon Green + Neon Orange

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2372
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #421 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:25:29 »
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)

Testing them out for the next week, actually.  Just put them in my m60.  Iíll report back soon
:)

Offline nerium

  • Posts: 17
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #422 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 10:27:19 »
Anyone order the latest batch of box clears? I really want to put these switches on my M60-A but so many people are still reporting issues; even with the re-tooled switches (smaller nubs..)

Testing them out for the next week, actually.  Just put them in my m60.  Iíll report back soon

Awesome - thanks!!
RAMA M60-A Mist w/ BOX Royals | RAMA M65-A Mist (unbuilt) | HHKB Pro 2 | HHKB Pro 2 Type-S | CM Novatouch | Poker II w/ MX Clears | Pok3r w/ MX Blues | SA Godspeed | SA Industrial | SA Ice Caps | SA Modern Selectric | DSA Dolch | GMK 3Run | Hidden Labs Thermochromic | Hot Keys Project Neon Green + Neon Orange

Online pixelpusher

  • Formerly known as reececonrad
  • Posts: 2372
  • Location: Tennessee - USA
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #423 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 13:40:39 »
BTW, I had GMK aero on retooled box pale blues for over 3 weeks and there are no signs of cracks or stress marks.
https://www.keebtalk.com/t/kailh-box-switch-stem-measurements-and-possible-problems/2926/176?u=pixelpusher
:)

Offline portbaron

  • Posts: 230
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #424 on: Thu, 29 November 2018, 16:55:27 »
Quick progress report.
I've had almost 2 dozen assorted gmk caps on retooled jades and novelias and a hako clear from novelkeys for 5 weeks now, with no signs of stress marks (see below). Put them on zealios and zilents today and they still hold.

Also I've had an epbt set on a 65g novelia TKL board for 3 weeks (used daily for 2 of those) with no damage, still very tight if swapped to zealios. Thick pbt doesn't seem to care at all.

My one Maxkey test keycap has a stress mark (see below) on the inside and outside, which it got as soon as I put it on last month and doesn't seem to be getting any bigger.

I've had SA hyperfuse on original box navies for 4 months. I did find 1 key out of the 10 I pulled with a light stress mark on the inside of the stem (can't be seen on the outside). Still fits on zealios without feeling overly loose though. But it's there.

Interestingly, when I pulled a handful of extra zealios and zilents to test them with, I found one zilent that seemed to have a looser stem than all the others. Any keycap I put on, including Leopold PBT and other GMKs that have never touched a box switch, flew off easily. So not all mx switches are the same either and it's best to test a keycap on several different ones before a conclusion is made.

I'm going to keep these going and see where they're at in another month or two. At this point I'd say the retooled boxes aren't bad, with no visible damage to GMKs. Swapped caps are only very slightly looser than GMKs of the same sets which were never on box switches when swapped to zealios, and 'flying caps' were not an issue unlike with original box switches. Having said that, I think there is still a very small difference. IMO it is insignificant because the caps still work without flying off when swapped, but if you don't even want to deal with that, that's a fair decision as well. I personally am not going to worry about it. Definitely better than original version box switches.




« Last Edit: Thu, 29 November 2018, 17:16:45 by portbaron »
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Online romevi

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #425 on: Wed, 05 December 2018, 01:00:04 »
Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.

So Novelias so far are fine?

Offline portbaron

  • Posts: 230
Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #426 on: Wed, 05 December 2018, 18:35:22 »
Okay, phew. I have a bag of Novelias waiting for a build, and I heard about this issue and only now decided to read up on it.

So Novelias so far are fine?
So far so good.
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Offline att1cus

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Re: Kailh BOX Switches Crack and Stress Keycap Stems
« Reply #427 on: Fri, 07 December 2018, 08:40:43 »
I lost interest on this. Do not want to know anything about this ****.

Weird.