Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 790756 times)

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Offline Arch4Life

  • Posts: 39
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5450 on: Sat, 27 February 2021, 08:47:46 »
begs the question: is rama a novelty or an artisan?

Does anyone use artisan keycaps on their work keyboards?
well, if it a metal artisan from RAMA, i don't mind using it on work board lol

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
well, they claimed it's an artisan, so...
https://drop.com/buy/rama-works-x-nautilus-nightmares-artisan-keycap

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Offline yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5451 on: Mon, 01 March 2021, 02:40:59 »
Typing is more important than handwriting by a factor of 1,000,000,000
i do agree, and not only because i can't write to save my life :)
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5452 on: Mon, 01 March 2021, 08:41:15 »

well, they claimed it's an artisan, so...
https://drop.com/buy/rama-works-x-nautilus-nightmares-artisan-keycap


I am not into that sort of stuff, but I like that one!
"We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles." – The bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this Nation still awaits its consummation. Ours was the first society openly to define itself in terms of both spirituality and of human liberty. It is that unique self–definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation: to take on those moral duties which, when assumed, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.
The American dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our country – and in one another. I believe America can be better. We can be even stronger than before. Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our Nation, for we know that if we despise our own government we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no prize was beyond our grasp.
But we cannot dwell upon remembered glory. We cannot afford to drift. Our Government must at the same time be both competent and compassionate. Our Nation can be strong abroad only if it is strong at home. And we know that the best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation. To be true to ourselves, we must be true to others. We must not behave in foreign places so as to violate our rules and standards here at home, for we know that the trust which our Nation earns is essential to our strength. 
– excerpts from Jimmy Carter inauguration speech 1977

Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5453 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 09:32:27 »
Typing is more important than handwriting by a factor of 1,000,000,000
i do agree, and not only because i can't write to save my life :)

I can write well (it's not the nicest to look at but it's still very legible), but I can definitely confirm that typing skill has a larger impact on your life than writing skill.

Offline achikin

  • Posts: 3
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5454 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 16:46:36 »
I have tried: Ergodox, X-Bows, Planck, and a bunch of more conventional mechanical keyboards over the course of ten years. I do realize that most of the following has already come up in this 100-page topic, but I think it's a good place to dump my unpopular kbd concerns.

1. Mechanical switches have nothing to do with ergonomics. They are bulky, they are high and they have too much travel. The only reason they are connected to ergonomics is that this is the only type of switch you can use for DIY.

2. Ortholinear is overrated.

3. Most of the claims about keyboards' ergonomics are false.

4. Thumb clusters are not comfortable. Yes, your thumb is the biggest, the strongest, and the most agile finger, but it is an opposite finger and it is not supposed for side movements.

5. The best keyboard you can buy is Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop - split, wireless, low-profile, short spacebar, big modifiers, embedded wrist rest, tented and negative tilted out of the box. Costs around 80$-100$. Considered bad in the community because "it's not mechanical and ortholinear haha".

6. 60%, 40%, moving common symbols to layers is not worth it. Pressing several function buttons instead of stretching your hand a bit is less comfortable and ergonomic. "Do leave your home row" does not make sense - what's wrong with moving your hands a little bit?

7. Many people judge keyboards by typing speed, but how many of them HAVE to type that fast? Same for different layouts and measuring "finger travel distance" - are you traveling that much?

8. Wrist rests, comfortable hand position, ease of pressing hotkeys - is much more valuable but is omitted by most of the keyboard makers.

9. Switches. There are hundreds of them, all different, you should lube and change springs and still, a lot of people are not very happy with their choice and looking for something better. Does not that mean that all of them are bad by design? Have you ever heard about someone whining about his forks and buying more and more different forks to find "the right one"?

Offline azzipa

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5455 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 17:49:57 »
I hold the (apparently) unpopular opinion that handwriting is superior to typing. I suppose it depends on why you need to transcribe and archive information. As a father I have watched my children learn and grow. Hand writing unquestionably leads to greater retention of new concepts. But don't just take my word for it:

Quote
"When people type their notes, they have this tendency to try to take verbatim notes and write down as much of the lecture as they can," Mueller tells NPR's Rachel Martin. "The students who were taking longhand notes in our studies were forced to be more selective — because you can't write as fast as you can type. And that extra processing of the material that they were doing benefited them."

Quote
If you learn well typing, you absolutely should! The overlaps between the [typists vs. writers] was large for almost every metric studied. The performance of the student mattered more than how they took notes. Therefore, we recommend that students should stick with what they do best. But, if you're on the fence, consider writing. It's low tech, it can be ugly for those with terrible handwriting, and it's pretty slow. But, in the end, you may just end up learning more.

Quote
The research by Mueller and Oppenheimer serves as a reminder, however, that even when technology allows us to do more in less time, it does not always foster learning.  Learning involves more than the receipt and the regurgitation of information.

Quote
Writing notes by hand generally improves your understanding of the material and helps you remember it better, since writing it down involves deeper cognitive-processing of the material than typing it... Despite the fact that typing notes on a computer doesn’t promote as much cognitive processing of the material, typing notes and writing them by hand are both valid note-taking methods, and each can be preferable in different situations, as they both have their advantages and disadvantages.

In a similar vein, a couple of other parents and I convinced our kids' school to drop iPads. They are great for consuming information but much less effective as a creative tool. But this is an unpopular opinion for another time.


Typing is more important than handwriting by a factor of 1,000,000,000
i do agree, and not only because i can't write to save my life :)

I can write well (it's not the nicest to look at but it's still very legible), but I can definitely confirm that typing skill has a larger impact on your life than writing skill.

Offline ideus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5456 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 18:49:21 »
Someone that does not type cannot survive in this digital era.

Offline azzipa

  • Posts: 414
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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5457 on: Tue, 02 March 2021, 20:23:17 »
Someone that does not type cannot survive in this digital era.

I encourage you to think more broadly. For some, digital is a death sentence. COVID is only making this worse as social links are broken. Teen depression and suicide rates are climbing beyond comprehension. We are losing an entire generation. (Not saying typing is the reason, but digital survival might not mean what you think it does.)

For too many kids and young adults, this is not the way.


Cyber Bullying

Approximately 34% of students report experiencing cyberbullying during their lifetime (Hinduja & Patchin, 2015)

Over 60% of students who experience cyberbullying reported that it immensely impacted their ability to learn and feel safe while at school (Hinduja, 2018)

59% of U.S. teens have been bullied or harassed online, and over 90% believe it's a major problem for people their age (Pew Research Center, 2018)


Self-Harm

Targets of cyberbullying are at a greater risk than others of both self-harm and suicidal behaviors (John et al., 2018)

Approximately 18% of youth report self-harming at least once, impacting 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 10 boys (Monto, McRee, & Deryck, 2018)

About 6% of students have digitally self-harmed, or anonymously posted online or shared hurtful content about oneself  (Patchin & Hinduja, 2017)


Suicide

Students who experienced bullying or cyberbullying are nearly 2 times more likely to attempt suicide (Hinduja & Patchin, 2018)

Current research suggests that suicide ideation and attempts among adolescents have nearly doubled since 2008 (Plemmons et al., 2018), making suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death for individuals 10-34 years of age (CDC, 2017)

Approximately 1 in 20 adolescents experience a suicide in single year (Andriessen, Dudley, Draper, & Mitchell, 2018)


Quote
TL/DR: none of the above sources reflect the impact of COVID restrictions. Read about teen disengagement here. Also, read here about "scores of students are getting F's: what's the point of failing them during COVID-19?" They may need to type to be in the work force, but first they have to get through school.

Offline yui

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5458 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 01:53:45 »
Cyber Bullying
Approximately 34% of students report experiencing cyberbullying during their lifetime (Hinduja & Patchin, 2015)
Over 60% of students who experience cyberbullying reported that it immensely impacted their ability to learn and feel safe while at school (Hinduja, 2018)
59% of U.S. teens have been bullied or harassed online, and over 90% believe it's a major problem for people their age (Pew Research Center, 2018)
i am pretty sure proper bullying ain't better be it as numbers or for mental health... not that i know for experience or anything that 2nd part but i was in France were bulling can carry a prison sentence, not in the US were bulling is the social norm... i am sorry but bullies will be bullies online or offline, just need to tighten on them, if they end up serving either social service or prison sentence they may start to think twice about bullying the next guy... and some on the internet will tell you that saying hi and how are you to a woman on the street is rape, so what is bullying to them...
and none of that has anything to do in this thread...
vi vi vi - the roman number of the beast (Plan9 fortune)

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5459 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 05:31:04 »
Cyber Bullying
Approximately 34% of students report experiencing cyberbullying during their lifetime (Hinduja & Patchin, 2015)
Over 60% of students who experience cyberbullying reported that it immensely impacted their ability to learn and feel safe while at school (Hinduja, 2018)
59% of U.S. teens have been bullied or harassed online, and over 90% believe it's a major problem for people their age (Pew Research Center, 2018)
i am pretty sure proper bullying ain't better be it as numbers or for mental health... not that i know for experience or anything that 2nd part but i was in France were bulling can carry a prison sentence, not in the US were bulling is the social norm... i am sorry but bullies will be bullies online or offline, just need to tighten on them, if they end up serving either social service or prison sentence they may start to think twice about bullying the next guy... and some on the internet will tell you that saying hi and how are you to a woman on the street is rape, so what is bullying to them...
and none of that has anything to do in this thread...

The internet may well magnify the total Bully-ing Bandwidth that a young person is exposed to.

But overall, we're very much into the Behavioral Sink phase of societal decay.  It's to be expected that a huge percentage of hughmahns become rabid.

This is primarily a failure of THE STATE to inspire the younger generation w/ meaningful social goals.

What we're acting out as of current is the END GAME of CAPITALISM.   This is our natural conclusion.  As long as we continue to model VALUE in the current form (Hedonic Output),  Equal unhappiness will be generated w/ happiness.   This is the default Modulation of the hedonic loop in every thinking being.

It's not possible to cut off the internet, or prevent its uptake/ use.  That's like cutting off the hand to fix a broken finger. Or gastic bypass, etc.   It won't work, as it's only symptom relief without addressing the CAUSE.

We have to change our Value system. Not Stop-Typing.

To Think that you can improve people's lives by taking them off the internet is in itself myopic. They'll just find ways to be unhappy elsewhere, the underlying broken value system is pervasive in every arena of life.


Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5460 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 08:17:48 »

This is primarily a failure of THE STATE to inspire the younger generation w/ meaningful social goals.

What we're acting out as of current is the END GAME of CAPITALISM.


I generally agree with this. As a "child of the 1960s" aka "the Space Age" I consider myself extremely fortunate to be among the last to grow up with a great education and optimistic aspirations for the future.
 
"We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles." – The bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this Nation still awaits its consummation. Ours was the first society openly to define itself in terms of both spirituality and of human liberty. It is that unique self–definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation: to take on those moral duties which, when assumed, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.
The American dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our country – and in one another. I believe America can be better. We can be even stronger than before. Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our Nation, for we know that if we despise our own government we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no prize was beyond our grasp.
But we cannot dwell upon remembered glory. We cannot afford to drift. Our Government must at the same time be both competent and compassionate. Our Nation can be strong abroad only if it is strong at home. And we know that the best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation. To be true to ourselves, we must be true to others. We must not behave in foreign places so as to violate our rules and standards here at home, for we know that the trust which our Nation earns is essential to our strength. 
– excerpts from Jimmy Carter inauguration speech 1977

Offline alertArchitect

  • Posts: 111
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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5461 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 10:01:21 »

The internet may well magnify the total Bully-ing Bandwidth that a young person is exposed to.

But overall, we're very much into the Behavioral Sink phase of societal decay.  It's to be expected that a huge percentage of hughmahns become rabid.

This is primarily a failure of THE STATE to inspire the younger generation w/ meaningful social goals.

What we're acting out as of current is the END GAME of CAPITALISM.   This is our natural conclusion.  As long as we continue to model VALUE in the current form (Hedonic Output),  Equal unhappiness will be generated w/ happiness.   This is the default Modulation of the hedonic loop in every thinking being.

It's not possible to cut off the internet, or prevent its uptake/ use.  That's like cutting off the hand to fix a broken finger. Or gastic bypass, etc.   It won't work, as it's only symptom relief without addressing the CAUSE.

We have to change our Value system. Not Stop-Typing.

To Think that you can improve people's lives by taking them off the internet is in itself myopic. They'll just find ways to be unhappy elsewhere, the underlying broken value system is pervasive in every arena of life.



As someone born in 2000, yeah, this is actually pretty accurate. Essentially born waiting for the endgame of capitalism, where there's no social mobility and the rich just keep profiting off of suffering and misery. Turning off the internet wouldn't help with the issues I faced then or the ones I face now, it would honestly magnify them and make it harder for me to talk to most of my friends or to play the games that help me escape from this damn nightmare for a bit. Previous generations had some sort of goal. The best people my age and younger have is "Survive, maybe live ok and have not-as-horrible mental health for a bit." I'm watching the end of my planet in slow motion, and there's nothing I can do to stop it because the capitalist system has intensely rewarded the rich *******s profiting off of the destruction of our home, and when there's a even a hint of the government doing something about it they vomit money at the problem until it goes away and gives them tax cuts.

So, yeah, I'd rather type well than write well, because that's my main form of communication with my friends. If I didn't have that I'd be even more isolated. Getting rid of the internet wouldn't solve any problems at this point, just make them worse.

Offline Leopard223

  • Posts: 141
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5462 on: Wed, 03 March 2021, 18:40:06 »
I have tried: Ergodox, X-Bows, Planck, and a bunch of more conventional mechanical keyboards over the course of ten years. I do realize that most of the following has already come up in this 100-page topic, but I think it's a good place to dump my unpopular kbd concerns.

1. Mechanical switches have nothing to do with ergonomics. They are bulky, they are high and they have too much travel. The only reason they are connected to ergonomics is that this is the only type of switch you can use for DIY.

2. Ortholinear is overrated.

3. Most of the claims about keyboards' ergonomics are false.

4. Thumb clusters are not comfortable. Yes, your thumb is the biggest, the strongest, and the most agile finger, but it is an opposite finger and it is not supposed for side movements.

5. The best keyboard you can buy is Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop - split, wireless, low-profile, short spacebar, big modifiers, embedded wrist rest, tented and negative tilted out of the box. Costs around 80$-100$. Considered bad in the community because "it's not mechanical and ortholinear haha".

6. 60%, 40%, moving common symbols to layers is not worth it. Pressing several function buttons instead of stretching your hand a bit is less comfortable and ergonomic. "Do leave your home row" does not make sense - what's wrong with moving your hands a little bit?

7. Many people judge keyboards by typing speed, but how many of them HAVE to type that fast? Same for different layouts and measuring "finger travel distance" - are you traveling that much?

8. Wrist rests, comfortable hand position, ease of pressing hotkeys - is much more valuable but is omitted by most of the keyboard makers.

9. Switches. There are hundreds of them, all different, you should lube and change springs and still, a lot of people are not very happy with their choice and looking for something better. Does not that mean that all of them are bad by design? Have you ever heard about someone whining about his forks and buying more and more different forks to find "the right one"?
The WPM thing is such a weird thing, people already have enough recolors and 100k GB of keyboards and keycaps that they probably need a new way to measure contest...
It also doesn't show much, a WPM test is not a real representation of how you really type, also who cares? do all of them actually write that much?..

I dont agree about the switches though, you don't whine on your fork not good enough becuase you probably don't care..  all the recolors are boring but there are differences between switches, for example Kailh clickbar switches are different, they have different spring weight and clickbar thickness which greatly affects sound and feel between them.

If you do have to lube/film your switch in order to make it feel good then it's definitly bad by design, there's no exuce for a manufacture to make switches with loose housing or pingy leaf and charge more than $0.25 per switch IMO.

BTW 60% is for people who dont use the rest of the keyboard much, I presonally rearly use F keys/numpad and the keys above the arrow keys almost never used except Delete, sure a full size keyboard is always better and using something like 40% with the 'never leave home-row' is a weird concept to me, but full size takes the space of the mouse for me, so it's either having smaller keyboard or typing weird.

Offline bkrownd

  • Posts: 113
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5463 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 14:04:45 »

WPM is just a convenient measure of comfort and efficiency, at least over short periods of time.  (Though back when I took keyboarding in high school on the Mighty IBM Selectric it was also essential to getting a good grade, by showing that you had actually learned and practiced.)

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Offline alertArchitect

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5464 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 14:27:00 »

WPM is just a convenient measure of comfort and efficiency, at least over short periods of time.  (Though back when I took keyboarding in high school on the Mighty IBM Selectric it was also essential to getting a good grade, by showing that you had actually learned and practiced.)

I mean, depending on your job, WPM is also a measure of effectiveness at said job. Working at a call center where you have to enter call notes and details quickly, data entry work where you are constantly typing, and courtroom stenography, to name a few. WPM is a useful barometer, but not a tell-all statistic; everyone's will be different, and the highest WPM possible for people is not necessarily achieved by the most comfortable setups. After all, a stenotype keyboard doesn't exactly look that comfortable. Looks rather cramped, to me, but they get some of the highest WPMs out there, so it's certainly efficient and effective.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5465 on: Thu, 04 March 2021, 19:03:33 »
You're not really MODERN until you've achieved 120wpm.

It's a basic skill.



Offline funkmon

  • Posts: 422
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5466 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 14:30:35 »
For comparison, behold the beauty of this Sharp 10-key calculator and its wide well-positioned 0 key:
(Attachment Link)
And because of that you will probably agree with me, that the IBM Model F XT has the best layout ever and is certainly not "weird", how many ignorant people call it.

This is 100% true and I agree with you completely. Let's be best friends.

Offline ideus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5467 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 15:12:14 »
Someone that does not type cannot survive in this digital era.

I encourage you to think more broadly. For some, digital is a death sentence. COVID is only making this worse as social links are broken. Teen depression and suicide rates are climbing beyond comprehension. We are losing an entire generation. (Not saying typing is the reason, but digital survival might not mean what you think it does.)

For too many kids and young adults, this is not the way.


Cyber Bullying

Approximately 34% of students report experiencing cyberbullying during their lifetime (Hinduja & Patchin, 2015)

Over 60% of students who experience cyberbullying reported that it immensely impacted their ability to learn and feel safe while at school (Hinduja, 2018)

59% of U.S. teens have been bullied or harassed online, and over 90% believe it's a major problem for people their age (Pew Research Center, 2018)


Self-Harm

Targets of cyberbullying are at a greater risk than others of both self-harm and suicidal behaviors (John et al., 2018)

Approximately 18% of youth report self-harming at least once, impacting 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 10 boys (Monto, McRee, & Deryck, 2018)

About 6% of students have digitally self-harmed, or anonymously posted online or shared hurtful content about oneself  (Patchin & Hinduja, 2017)


Suicide

Students who experienced bullying or cyberbullying are nearly 2 times more likely to attempt suicide (Hinduja & Patchin, 2018)

Current research suggests that suicide ideation and attempts among adolescents have nearly doubled since 2008 (Plemmons et al., 2018), making suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death for individuals 10-34 years of age (CDC, 2017)

Approximately 1 in 20 adolescents experience a suicide in single year (Andriessen, Dudley, Draper, & Mitchell, 2018)


Quote
TL/DR: none of the above sources reflect the impact of COVID restrictions. Read about teen disengagement here. Also, read here about "scores of students are getting F's: what's the point of failing them during COVID-19?" They may need to type to be in the work force, but first they have to get through school.


I agree that computer-mediated communications are not natural to people; however, it is a given fact of our time. I may be well above the average age for this forum; however, the best thing the happened to me was that I was forced to join the typewriting class at the high-school, due to all the other workshops—men's—well full. What I stated is not something I am comfortable with, but to type is just a requirement for many jobs, no matter if we like it or not. On the other hand I love real books, but sometimes getting the physical version is just not possible, so I am forced to get the so-called "digital" version.

Offline andred

  • Posts: 16
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5468 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 18:27:31 »
For comparison, behold the beauty of this Sharp 10-key calculator and its wide well-positioned 0 key:
(Attachment Link)
And because of that you will probably agree with me, that the IBM Model F XT has the best layout ever and is certainly not "weird", how many ignorant people call it.

This is 100% true and I agree with you completely. Let's be best friends.

Isn't she a beaut! So many steps it looks like a castle!
263923-0

Offline N8N

  • Posts: 787
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5469 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 19:06:29 »
As someone born in 2000, yeah, this is actually pretty accurate. Essentially born waiting for the endgame of capitalism, where there's no social mobility and the rich just keep profiting off of suffering and misery. Turning off the internet wouldn't help with the issues I faced then or the ones I face now, it would honestly magnify them and make it harder for me to talk to most of my friends or to play the games that help me escape from this damn nightmare for a bit. Previous generations had some sort of goal. The best people my age and younger have is "Survive, maybe live ok and have not-as-horrible mental health for a bit." I'm watching the end of my planet in slow motion, and there's nothing I can do to stop it because the capitalist system has intensely rewarded the rich *******s profiting off of the destruction of our home, and when there's a even a hint of the government doing something about it they vomit money at the problem until it goes away and gives them tax cuts.

So, yeah, I'd rather type well than write well, because that's my main form of communication with my friends. If I didn't have that I'd be even more isolated. Getting rid of the internet wouldn't solve any problems at this point, just make them worse.

So you don't even remember life before Reaganomics.  (don't feel bad, I don't really, either - I was only 6 at the time.)

Also, I was graduated from college and in the workforce before you were born.  I feel really (redacted) old now.

It does make me feel a little hope for the future that at least a few of your generation can so succinctly put your finger on a few of the major problems with our society however.
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5470 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 19:21:03 »

It does make me feel a little hope for the future that at least a few of your generation can so succinctly put your finger on a few of the major problems with our society however.


I would peg the inflection as occurring around 1978. Reagan's Republican Party is profoundly different from the Republican Party that existed before.
"We must adjust to changing times and still hold to unchanging principles." – The bold and brilliant dream which excited the founders of this Nation still awaits its consummation. Ours was the first society openly to define itself in terms of both spirituality and of human liberty. It is that unique self–definition which has given us an exceptional appeal, but it also imposes on us a special obligation: to take on those moral duties which, when assumed, seem invariably to be in our own best interests.
The American dream endures. We must once again have full faith in our country – and in one another. I believe America can be better. We can be even stronger than before. Let our recent mistakes bring a resurgent commitment to the basic principles of our Nation, for we know that if we despise our own government we have no future. We recall in special times when we have stood briefly, but magnificently, united. In those times no prize was beyond our grasp.
But we cannot dwell upon remembered glory. We cannot afford to drift. Our Government must at the same time be both competent and compassionate. Our Nation can be strong abroad only if it is strong at home. And we know that the best way to enhance freedom in other lands is to demonstrate here that our democratic system is worthy of emulation. To be true to ourselves, we must be true to others. We must not behave in foreign places so as to violate our rules and standards here at home, for we know that the trust which our Nation earns is essential to our strength. 
– excerpts from Jimmy Carter inauguration speech 1977

Offline N8N

  • Posts: 787
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5471 on: Sat, 06 March 2021, 19:35:00 »

It does make me feel a little hope for the future that at least a few of your generation can so succinctly put your finger on a few of the major problems with our society however.


I would peg the inflection as occurring around 1978. Reagan's Republican Party is profoundly different from the Republican Party that existed before.


In my last post I implied 1980, so we pretty much agree on this.  I'm not quite old enough to really be more precise than a couple years anyway.
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry Corp. doubleshot keys - Leopold Tenkeyless Tactile Force with Wyse doubleshots - Silicon Graphics 9500900 - WASD V1 - IBM Model M 52G9658 - Noppoo Choc Pro with Cherry lasered PBT keycaps - Wyse 900866-01 - Cherry G80-8200LPBUS/07 - Dell AT101W - several Cherry G81s (future doubleshot donors) (order of current preference) (dang I have too many keyboards, I really only need two)

Offline AJM

  • Posts: 73
  • Location: Germany
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5472 on: Tue, 09 March 2021, 08:43:02 »
For comparison, behold the beauty of this Sharp 10-key calculator and its wide well-positioned 0 key:
(Attachment Link)
And because of that you will probably agree with me, that the IBM Model F XT has the best layout ever and is certainly not "weird", how many ignorant people call it.

This is 100% true and I agree with you completely. Let's be best friends.

Isn't she a beaut! So many steps it looks like a castle!
(Attachment Link)

@funkmon: Deal !  ;D

@andred: I've never noticed it, but you're right. And I love castles, too.  :D

Offline azzipa

  • Posts: 414
  • Location: USA
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5473 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 09:01:43 »

5. The best keyboard you can buy is Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop - split, wireless, low-profile, short spacebar, big modifiers, embedded wrist rest, tented and negative tilted out of the box. Costs around 80$-100$. Considered bad in the community because "it's not mechanical and ortholinear haha".


can't be... it only has one 'B'  :D

Offline Findecanor

  • Posts: 4814
  • Location: Koriko
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5474 on: Fri, 26 March 2021, 09:19:59 »
BTW, the Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop includes a mouse. You can buy it without the mouse for less.
Man must shape his tools lest they shape him
-- Arthur Miller

Offline Crabby

  • Posts: 39
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5475 on: Sat, 03 April 2021, 13:56:09 »
Typing is more important than handwriting by a factor of 1,000,000,000

For menial office slave work I suppose.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1830
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5476 on: Tue, 06 April 2021, 10:31:37 »
Typing is more important than handwriting by a factor of 1,000,000,000

For menial office slave work I suppose.

And in what case is there an exception? Calligraphy? Is there a market for such things?

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 763
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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    • John Savard's Home Page
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5477 on: Tue, 06 April 2021, 20:59:45 »
well, HP is still highly hyped here in Asia, tbh I dont like tactile switch, linear is better
I could be wrong, but I've always thought that tactile is better for typing, and linear is better for gaming.


Offline Engedi_

  • Posts: 50
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5478 on: Tue, 06 April 2021, 21:11:10 »
well, HP is still highly hyped here in Asia, tbh I dont like tactile switch, linear is better
I could be wrong, but I've always thought that tactile is better for typing, and linear is better for gaming.

I've heard that too but I'm going to try linear my next build to confirm it for myself.
My opinion about this hobby: You don't need to buy expensive boards for $300+ for a great typing experience.
You could actually get a entry level or beginner board as the community puts it, mod it and have a better experience than what premium boards offer.
Case in point, recently the kbd67lite r2 was compared with Iron65, and the former proved to be thockier.
Goes to show not all premium boards are worth buying, and you really need to lurk for a while and resist the urge to buy those boards until you realize this.

Another of my observations. I believe entry level or beginner board makes anyone who starts this hobby think that their first board is never good enough.
This is not true. I've never heard explanation as to what puts some boards in the above category, but I'm guessing it's the price and material.
The funny thing is whether you have the above or premium boards, you still need the same knowledge and parts to build it.
It's not as if buying a premium board makes you learn more about building keyboards. Once you build one, you know it.
Now if you're referring to different feel and sound signature, it's the materials that make a difference.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 April 2021, 21:22:54 by Engedi_ »

Offline Arch4Life

  • Posts: 39
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5479 on: Tue, 06 April 2021, 23:32:26 »
well, HP is still highly hyped here in Asia, tbh I dont like tactile switch, linear is better
I could be wrong, but I've always thought that tactile is better for typing, and linear is better for gaming.
i just like the bottom out sound of linear and i dont play games. I dont think that linear tactile or clicky has anything to do with games, alot of famous game streamers use tactile for games and it doesn't seem to affect their performance in-game
sorry for the spaghetti English mate

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Offline Arch4Life

  • Posts: 39
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5480 on: Tue, 06 April 2021, 23:38:37 »
well, HP is still highly hyped here in Asia, tbh I dont like tactile switch, linear is better
I could be wrong, but I've always thought that tactile is better for typing, and linear is better for gaming.

I've heard that too but I'm going to try linear my next build to confirm it for myself.
My opinion about this hobby: You don't need to buy expensive boards for $300+ for a great typing experience.
You could actually get a entry level or beginner board as the community puts it, mod it and have a better experience than what premium boards offer.
Case in point, recently the kbd67lite r2 was compared with Iron65, and the former proved to be thockier.
Goes to show not all premium boards are worth buying, and you really need to lurk for a while and resist the urge to buy those boards until you realize this.

Another of my observations. I believe entry level or beginner board makes anyone who starts this hobby think that their first board is never good enough.
This is not true. I've never heard explanation as to what puts some boards in the above category, but I'm guessing it's the price and material.
The funny thing is whether you have the above or premium boards, you still need the same knowledge and parts to build it.
It's not as if buying a premium board makes you learn more about building keyboards. Once you build one, you know it.
Now if you're referring to different feel and sound signature, it's the materials that make a difference.
premium board does not guarantee a better experience mate, a skilled builder does

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Offline jamster

  • Posts: 987
  • Location: Asia
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5481 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 01:52:40 »
'Premium' boards are still generally based on MX-style switches, so IMO there's a hard, and a fairly low, limit to how 'premium' the typing experience can ever get. Fancy gaskets, heavy milled cases, and rotary dials can't really compensate for the switch mechanism.

(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 April 2021, 01:54:21 by jamster »

Offline alertArchitect

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: The Void, KY, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5482 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 09:16:14 »
'Premium' boards are still generally based on MX-style switches, so IMO there's a hard, and a fairly low, limit to how 'premium' the typing experience can ever get. Fancy gaskets, heavy milled cases, and rotary dials can't really compensate for the switch mechanism.

(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Yeah, MX-style switches are consistent, and they're what we have, but I wish there were more switches that used the same mount as MX-styles but a different mechanism. Something that leads to more inherent tactility, maybe? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, all I know is that I want my tactiles to be heavy, have a good bump you can really feel, and if I'm using clickys in something like a macro pad (where that extra feedback helps, at least for me, for knowing that the button's been pushed quickly without bottoming out for things like soundboard triggers and meme chat macros), I'm always wishing for more tactility and a deeper-sounding click than is probably possible with current designs. That's not to say MX-styles don't have their place, they certainly do, but I would love to see more varied designs. Maybe I just haven't done enough research?

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1830
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5483 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 10:08:44 »
well, HP is still highly hyped here in Asia, tbh I dont like tactile switch, linear is better
I could be wrong, but I've always thought that tactile is better for typing, and linear is better for gaming.

It comes down to preference. When I'm playing games, I want to be able to be totally immersed in a game. I want my keyboard as removed from the process as it can be. I tried using my beloved capacitive buckling spring, which in all other situations, is reason enough for me to type literally anything, for any reason, for the sake of typing on them. With games, even the smooth and slight tactile event of a Model F was distracting, and the click itself was even more so. That's why I still just use MX reds for gaming. They get the job done more boringly than a rubber dome.

I could see heavy tactility being something that gets in the way of split-second reactions as well.

Case in point, recently the kbd67lite r2 was compared with Iron65, and the former proved to be thockier.

Not everybody even wants a thocky keyboard and if they like clicky switches, they may not even care one way or another about that.

Another of my observations. I believe entry level or beginner board makes anyone who starts this hobby think that their first board is never good enough.
This is not true. I've never heard explanation as to what puts some boards in the above category, but I'm guessing it's the price and material.

A lot of it is subjective standards and/or features and/or brand recognition that may or may not have any validity whatsoever, much less significant merit. "Premium" should just be a meme at this point.

premium board does not guarantee a better experience mate, a skilled builder does

What even makes someone a skilled "builder"? Assembling some kit board is easy. Literally anyone with a $15 Weller iron could do it right with 20 minutes of research. What more does or does not matter to begin with comes down to preference. It is a nice/relaxing/easy way to learn soldering.

'Premium' boards are still generally based on MX-style switches, so IMO there's a hard, and a fairly low, limit to how 'premium' the typing experience can ever get. Fancy gaskets, heavy milled cases, and rotary dials can't really compensate for the switch mechanism.

(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Will he not even ship it directly to where you're located?

'Premium' boards are still generally based on MX-style switches, so IMO there's a hard, and a fairly low, limit to how 'premium' the typing experience can ever get. Fancy gaskets, heavy milled cases, and rotary dials can't really compensate for the switch mechanism.

(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Yeah, MX-style switches are consistent, and they're what we have, but I wish there were more switches that used the same mount as MX-styles but a different mechanism. Something that leads to more inherent tactility, maybe? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, all I know is that I want my tactiles to be heavy, have a good bump you can really feel, and if I'm using clickys in something like a macro pad (where that extra feedback helps, at least for me, for knowing that the button's been pushed quickly without bottoming out for things like soundboard triggers and meme chat macros), I'm always wishing for more tactility and a deeper-sounding click than is probably possible with current designs. That's not to say MX-styles don't have their place, they certainly do, but I would love to see more varied designs. Maybe I just haven't done enough research?

If you want a lot of tactility and relatively bassy clicks with MX compatibility, you want to look at box jades.

Offline glibber

  • Posts: 28
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5484 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:01:51 »
Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Coiled cables (in the form you usually see them for keyboards) are useless and look super weird.

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5485 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:22:50 »
Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Coiled cables (in the form you usually see them for keyboards) are useless and look super weird.

They're definitely retro-cool, we used to have them on telefones before cordless and cel.

You're just too Non-Boomer to appreciate our Pivotal Culture.

Hard compressor hoses are still coiled.

Offline glibber

  • Posts: 28
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5486 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:28:33 »
Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Coiled cables (in the form you usually see them for keyboards) are useless and look super weird.

They're definitely retro-cool, we used to have them on telefones before cordless and cel.

You're just too Non-Boomer to appreciate our Pivotal Culture.

Hard compressor hoses are still coiled.


I'm probably too boomer rather, and want to see a coiled cable used in a way that makes sense.
There's just no point in using it on something that you barely ever move around a lot, and not coiling the entire thing anyway.

And that random coil somewhere in the middle just looks super awkward I think.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1830
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5487 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:51:48 »
Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Coiled cables (in the form you usually see them for keyboards) are useless and look super weird.

They're definitely retro-cool, we used to have them on telefones before cordless and cel.

You're just too Non-Boomer to appreciate our Pivotal Culture.

Hard compressor hoses are still coiled.


I'm probably too boomer rather, and want to see a coiled cable used in a way that makes sense.
There's just no point in using it on something that you barely ever move around a lot, and not coiling the entire thing anyway.

And that random coil somewhere in the middle just looks super awkward I think.

Blingy in-line connectors are even more pointless than the coils. They have some utility in cases where you want to swap to different USB connector types, but if you want to do that why not just get magnetic cables that do that job much better? Everything to do with those "artisan" cables is pointless cosmetic flair. That's perfectly fine, if that's what you want going into it and those cosmetics suit your tastes. I find it tacky.

I think the coils made sense on retro mass market keyboards where if they had a removable cable, it used a proprietary interface. The company made one length and one length only, so a coiled cable is a universal compromise design element for the greatest number of possible use cases.

Offline iri

  • Posts: 959
  • Location: 'Great' Britain
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5488 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:54:07 »
I'm probably too boomer rather, and want to see a coiled cable used in a way that makes sense.
There's just no point in using it on something that you barely ever move around a lot, and not coiling the entire thing anyway.

And that random coil somewhere in the middle just looks super awkward I think.
ok boomer
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline alertArchitect

  • Posts: 111
  • Location: The Void, KY, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5489 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 12:58:27 »
Not sure if this has been said before, but:

Coiled cables (in the form you usually see them for keyboards) are useless and look super weird.

They're definitely retro-cool, we used to have them on telefones before cordless and cel.

You're just too Non-Boomer to appreciate our Pivotal Culture.

Hard compressor hoses are still coiled.


I'm probably too boomer rather, and want to see a coiled cable used in a way that makes sense.
There's just no point in using it on something that you barely ever move around a lot, and not coiling the entire thing anyway.

And that random coil somewhere in the middle just looks super awkward I think.

I don't see it as useless, per se, but it's definitely more of an aesthetic choice than it used to be. Before braided cables were commonplace it was just the best way to avoid kinks and tangles in your plastic-coated wires and cables. But now it's more of an aesthetic choice than anything else, and like 90% of this hobby, definitely up to preference. I prefer a nice, simple, braided cable with no coiling in my current setup, but once I have more area and a larger desk, I'll probably go for a nice coiled cable because I like the look of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Offline glibber

  • Posts: 28
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5490 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 13:49:11 »
I'm probably too boomer rather, and want to see a coiled cable used in a way that makes sense.
There's just no point in using it on something that you barely ever move around a lot, and not coiling the entire thing anyway.

And that random coil somewhere in the middle just looks super awkward I think.
ok boomer

Damnit, I almost choked on my tide pod!

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
  • Location: Over There! (Pointing)
  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5491 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 14:43:29 »
?

Offline iri

  • Posts: 959
  • Location: 'Great' Britain
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5492 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 14:49:29 »
?
  • Sensible
  • Convenient when the kb is moved
  • Looks good
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 1830
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5493 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 15:01:36 »
?
  • Sensible
  • Convenient when the kb is moved
  • Looks good

One downside is that it gets caught on everything, including itself. I run my cables through the cable management holes on the OEM stands for monitors when suitable and it is a pain dealing with coils whenever I swap boards a lot. I don't think anybody cared much about cable management back then though other than keeping it from getting damaged.

Offline iri

  • Posts: 959
  • Location: 'Great' Britain
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5494 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 15:11:53 »
One downside is that it gets caught on everything, including itself.
Not on my AEK. And I like its detachability so much.
(...)Whereas back then I wrote about the tyranny of the majority, today I'd combine that with the tyranny of the minorities. These days, you have to be careful of both. They both want to control you. The first group, by making you do the same thing over and over again. The second group is indicated by the letters I get from the Vassar girls who want me to put more women's lib in The Martian Chronicles, or from blacks who want more black people in Dandelion Wine.
I say to both bunches, Whether you're a majority or minority, bug off! To hell with anybody who wants to tell me what to write. Their society breaks down into subsections of minorities who then, in effect, burn books by banning them. All this political correctness that's rampant on campuses is b.s.

-Ray Bradbury

Offline NoteMakoti

  • Posts: 102
  • for sale, baby shoes, never worn
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5495 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 16:08:20 »
I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

Offline azzipa

  • Posts: 414
  • Location: USA
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5496 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 16:13:31 »
what would you like different in an mx? truly curious. in my case i've gone from searching for the holy grail to enjoying the great tools i have on my desk. same thing with hi-fi. not trying to remove that last veil of silk in front of the mic or gaining a wider soundstage to enjoying wonderful music. def does not mean i didn't spend time and money trying for a while  :D

I definitely wish there were non-MX style switches with MX style mounting points.

Offline Snowdog993

  • Grace Under Pressure
  • Posts: 1587
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  • Justifiably Clueless.
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5497 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 18:34:34 »
?
  • Sensible
  • Convenient when the kb is moved
  • Looks good

One downside is that it gets caught on everything, including itself. I run my cables through the cable management holes on the OEM stands for monitors when suitable and it is a pain dealing with coils whenever I swap boards a lot. I don't think anybody cared much about cable management back then though other than keeping it from getting damaged.

One solution I have used is a PS/2 extension cable that is about 6 foot long that is not coiled at all. Just in case the computer is sitting at a distance greater than the SDL cable can reach. This way, I avoid putting strain on the original cable and still have the flexibility of movement. In its simplest form, it may be primitive, but then again, you can always get an SDL to USB cable if you wish. I find my solution to be very inexpensive and it works both ways very well.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 987
  • Location: Asia
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5498 on: Wed, 07 April 2021, 20:43:10 »

(I do wish there was some way to try the remade Model F around my neck of the woods.)

Will he not even ship it directly to where you're located?

I've not checked, I could probably get one out here one way or another, but at $400 I'd like to try it before buying. And... these days I need some degree of quiet for family reasons.

Yeah, MX-style switches are consistent, and they're what we have, but I wish there were more switches that used the same mount as MX-styles but a different mechanism. Something that leads to more inherent tactility, maybe? I don't know, I'm not an engineer, all I know is that I want my tactiles to be heavy, have a good bump you can really feel, and if I'm using clickys in something like a macro pad (where that extra feedback helps, at least for me, for knowing that the button's been pushed quickly without bottoming out for things like soundboard triggers and meme chat macros), I'm always wishing for more tactility and a deeper-sounding click than is probably possible with current designs. That's not to say MX-styles don't have their place, they certainly do, but I would love to see more varied designs. Maybe I just haven't done enough research?

We have Topre, which is my strong preference. I thought I didn't really care that much, but recently moved back to Realforce when my desk setup changed and my split keyboard cables were too short to accommodate this. Turns out that Topre beats the living daylights out of Outemu Skies (which were selected after trying a good handful of silenced tactile options) and I haven't been able to bring myself to move back (longer cables have been here for weeks now). We also have vintage options- my bucking spring experiences is what makes me want to to try an F some day. I've had Alps, which I also preferred over MX. Even good scissor switches.

MX is what we have, but MX is... such a low level of mediocrity that we are wallowing in (getting back to the thread topic). This isn't the best analogy, but it makes me think of East Germans aspiring to own Ladas. Or that old English phrase, about making a silk purse out of a pig's ear.

That said, I believe that it was Maledicted who recommended Box Jades and Navies to me last year. I did try those, and of all the MX variants I got in (of a dozen or so) they impressed me most- there were actually interesting, and not more 'run of the mill almost exactly the same as the next switch'. Unfortunately, I can't use clickies at the moment.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 April 2021, 20:46:55 by jamster »

Offline Benchiridion

  • Posts: 11
  • Location: North East United States
Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #5499 on: Thu, 08 April 2021, 06:04:55 »
I enjoy spring ping.