AcidFire's modular keyboard system - Axios [In Development]

[AcidFire]

This sounds great. Is the beta still open for applicants?

Unfortunately not at this point, as I've already selected applicants. However since I have other designs I haven't yet shared, there is always a possibility of it opening up down the line.

GASP ... I totally did not expect you would actually act upon my old post. This is AWESOME ! 

... typed on my piezo-clicky ergodox :-)

Well it was a good suggestion and you weren't the only one to request it either. I've built it with a couple of different sounds to the clicks, and one very similar to the sample I believe you posted is set as the default.

I am quite fond on heavy tactile switches, the one I mentioned is this one: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Grey.
Would be great if we can get some info about Cherry MX Super Grey from the company... But I know I am asking for too much there :|

I'd be most interested in the MX Grey switches as well, even if you decide to carry some for add-on sales.  I'm also a tactile switch fan; any of the MX White, MX Clear or MX Green switches would be awesome.

The current line-up of switches I'm looking to carry right now:
- White
- Blue
- Green
- Red
- Black
- Dark Grey
- Brown
- Clear
- Grey

Subject to what I can actually get from Cherry, of course.

Haha, I check for this email compulsively. Just in case I missed it somehow....

Its great to see that you're using a new version of the firmware, and with all of the different ideas you've mentioned for off-shoots I don't think that you'd have any trouble unloading the excess switches. That being said... I know you said that you'd like to, and I really think you ought to gear up to be in this for the long haul. I mentioned to you in my original email that I've been through numerous keyboards because of my hands, and I just don't believe that anything can compare to the way you've designed this. With the right exposure, these may be trying to go out the door faster than you can put them together.

And now there is the possibility of Aluminum? I think reading that for the first time actually made me start drooling a bit. That would be so damn cool!

I do have a request of you, given that possibility: will you do a good weight comparison (ideally to two decimal places, in grams) between the acrylic body and the aluminum body for us and post the photos? Neither keyboard would need to be assembled, since I'm assuming the inside pieces of each would weigh the same...

I will definitely release the weights for both once I finalize the designs for each. Injection molded as a standard option is looking more and more possible as I now have access to someone who has a fair amount of experience designing cases for manufacture.

I also keep checking for the email :-)
I have been too swamped at work the past month to check my email and little demons have been dancing 'round my head, chanting "you're gonna miss the beta!"
I have been following this thread since July and every time I check back in, I get more impressed with this project.
I have been on a quest for the perfect keyboard since the 90s and this is the best one I have ever seen. My biggest problem is that what is 'perfect' for me changes depending on what I am doing. I love the adjustability of the keyboard. The more I can adjust it, the better.

Right now I am typing on a laptop keyboard and it feels like typing on a trampoline. My old keyboards have all had rubber domes of varying stiffness. I like the quietness of them, but the amount of force involved in pressing them hurts my fingers over time. I often spend 10 or more hours a day at a keyboard and I don't want to have to quit because of my hands.
My current keyboard is a cheapo wireless keyboard with rubber domes, but the keys take almost no pressure to press and they are very quiet. I type at all hours of the night and I have very sensitive hearing, so being quiet is a big factor for me. From what I have seen with mechanical keyboards, making them quiet is a challenge, but there are many things to try.

From my own experience, linear or (my preference) tactile switches make about the same amount of noise as a standard keyboard, provided you aren't bottoming out.

As for the beta, I had considered emailing those of you who had been selected ahead of time to let you know if you had been added, however the portal I've been working on that would allow you to share feedback with both me & other testers hasn't been finished yet. It's coming though

[MOZ]

You need to get MXLOCK, please, please.

[Thimplum]

me & other testers

"other testers and I", don't you mean?


jk

[AcidFire]

Since I've been slaving away on the firmware, I decided to take a bit of a break last night and address the issue of angle and adjustability of the thumb cluster. After a few hours of design & testing, this is where I left off:



While it's far from perfect, it's definitely headed in the right direction. The most notable difference for those of you with smaller hands, is that both my girlfriend and the girls in the office have all said that the stretch they felt with the previous design is gone, which should hopefully mean I won't need multiple case sizes. There are a number of design tweaks I currently have planned for tonight that address some problems I've encountered, as well as some general improvements.

[esoomenona]

That's pretty sweet! Great work.

[JPG]

Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?

[Neebio]

Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?

I imagine with that sort of hinge design, it will stay pretty firmly in place by friction alone

[Demonmaker]

Oooo, some sexy new pictures.  I was just thinking the other day if you would be doing a photo update, so thank you very much.

Roll on the kickstarter, looking Fab! 

[Paul]

Hello, Geekhack!
I think this is an excellent project and definitely interested in buying one or two units once they become available. Excellent work, AcidFire! 

I read the topic and see that all the questions that interested me had already been asked. But still I would like to clarify some of them. Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.

1. The innermost column on the main keyboard is changed from one 1x and two 1.5x keys to be a column of four 1x keys?
2. The outermost column is still using 1.5x keys?
   Is it possible to make the switch mounts of the outermost column in a way that would allow to mount the switch both closer to the pinky (and use 1x caps) and farther (for 1.5x caps). Something similar to what was recently done in the thumb board.
   This would allow to change key layout by modifying only one layer of acrylic.
3. What about adding one additional key at the very bottom of the middle-finger column? This will make layout of the last row somewhat similar to what TrulyErgonomic has for arrow keys, which is quite useful in my opinion.

[AcidFire]

Seems super nice. Will there be some kind of "lock" to make sure then angle does not change?

I imagine with that sort of hinge design, it will stay pretty firmly in place by friction alone

Pretty much this, at least for now. With it tightened properly, I break the acrylic before it will actually move. I hesitate to use other mechanisms because then you get locked into things like preset points, which can be especially annoying when your ideal zone lies somewhere between two points.

Oooo, some sexy new pictures.  I was just thinking the other day if you would be doing a photo update, so thank you very much.

Roll on the kickstarter, looking Fab! 

Yes, I thought it was getting a bit dry & photoless around here

Hello, Geekhack!
I think this is an excellent project and definitely interested in buying one or two units once they become available. Excellent work, AcidFire! 

I read the topic and see that all the questions that interested me had already been asked. But still I would like to clarify some of them. Sorry if I missed the answer somewhere.

1. The innermost column on the main keyboard is changed from one 1x and two 1.5x keys to be a column of four 1x keys?
2. The outermost column is still using 1.5x keys?
   Is it possible to make the switch mounts of the outermost column in a way that would allow to mount the switch both closer to the pinky (and use 1x caps) and farther (for 1.5x caps). Something similar to what was recently done in the thumb board.
   This would allow to change key layout by modifying only one layer of acrylic.
3. What about adding one additional key at the very bottom of the middle-finger column? This will make layout of the last row somewhat similar to what TrulyErgonomic has for arrow keys, which is quite useful in my opinion.

1. Originally yes, however the size & shape of the thumb cluster has forced me to remove the new key while keeping the others at the 1x.

2. If I exclude them from the backlight, yes. The issue isn't with the switch, but rather the holes for the LEDs for the backlighting. Now, if I update the board so that the LEDs point inward (90 rotation), this is entirely possible, and especially with keys that have been etched at the edges could actually be helpful, it ends up being odd looking in the single board solutions. This all in theory, of course and still remains to be tested. Edge etching the keys can also restrict their placement unless the legend is etched into all 4 sides.

3. I can see how that would be useful, and I may explore the idea tonight. The only difference I see is that the arrow cluster on a TECK is layed out evenly, while there would be a slight stagger to one side of mine.

[elllit]

Nice to see how you try to tackle the one and the other problems, either software or hardware. Even more so that I know how different the two are and how much both trigger different kinds of (eventually exhausting) parts of creativity.

But you are well on track to bring out some really awesome piece of work.... so just keep going.

Cheers,

 -- elllit

[Paul]

1. Originally yes, however the size & shape of the thumb cluster has forced me to remove the new key while keeping the others at the 1x.

Makes sense.

2. If I exclude them from the backlight, yes. The issue isn't with the switch, but rather the holes for the LEDs for the backlighting. Now, if I update the board so that the LEDs point inward (90 rotation), this is entirely possible, and especially with keys that have been etched at the edges could actually be helpful, it ends up being odd looking in the single board solutions. This all in theory, of course and still remains to be tested. Edge etching the keys can also restrict their placement unless the legend is etched into all 4 sides.

I see, not worth the time to explore this further, in my opinion.

3. I can see how that would be useful, and I may explore the idea tonight. The only difference I see is that the arrow cluster on a TECK is layed out evenly, while there would be a slight stagger to one side of mine.

It's a little hard to tell from the pictures of the prototypes, but it appears that the stagger should be minimal and comfortable enough to use, but only testing will show.

Thanks for explaining.

[fisofo]

Such a sweet design, will be great to get my mitts on one someday.

Show Image

AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?

It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.

Any luck on this? No big deal if not, I prefer you not be distracted from the main project :)

[Loligagger]

Could the new thumb board fit in the older cases while sacrificing the corner 1x key/angle adjustability? I could deal with less flexibility for a more compact board, similar to your original test case here:

Show Image

Also, that arm for the thumb board looks like it could be used as an adjustable foot for tenting. Would probably work better than the fixed angle brackets from a while back.

[Demonmaker]

I must admit I'm preferring the "piano" look of the original,  than the newer version with the adjustable thumb area.

Nearer the time to release, could we get a couple of photos of the designs with a hand placed on the device for comparison of shape and look ?  That would be great, thanks.

[vatin]

For me I'll say which ever design that benefits ergonomic totally works for me. Looking forward to the release.

[Oobly]

Since I've been slaving away on the firmware, I decided to take a bit of a break last night and address the issue of angle and adjustability of the thumb cluster. After a few hours of design & testing, this is where I left off:

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

While it's far from perfect, it's definitely headed in the right direction. The most notable difference for those of you with smaller hands, is that both my girlfriend and the girls in the office have all said that the stretch they felt with the previous design is gone, which should hopefully mean I won't need multiple case sizes. There are a number of design tweaks I currently have planned for tonight that address some problems I've encountered, as well as some general improvements.

The hinged thumb cluster design is fantastic! Good work! In my testing of various thumb cluster designs and placements, an angled thumb cluster definitely feels best IMHO. Positioning is fairly important, so it's a good idea to have a broad group of beta testers with different hand sizes and shapes.

Again, very nice work. The size is okay for a "permanent" desktop setup, but too big to be really portable, IMO, but I like really minimalist designs, so there is some bias ;)

[AcidFire]

Such a sweet design, will be great to get my mitts on one someday.

AcidFire: A bit off-topic, but what are the little caps on the bottom of the screws in this picture protecting the desk? Can you link to where I can get them?

It's something we stock for some of our kits, but we don't normally sell them seperately. I'll talk to my boss later and see if I can get them to let me sell some.

Any luck on this? No big deal if not, I prefer you not be distracted from the main project

TBH I completely forgot to ask, send me a PM with how many you need and where you need them sent to and I'll see what I can do.

I must admit I'm preferring the "piano" look of the original,  than the newer version with the adjustable thumb area.

Nearer the time to release, could we get a couple of photos of the designs with a hand placed on the device for comparison of shape and look ?  That would be great, thanks.

I think you'd find that the thumb cluster in the default position is almost identical in design to the original, is actually more comfortable, and is more cost effective for me to produce. The Hinges acting as a stand are actually much cheaper than using longer screws/standoffs. As for the wing on the left hand side, I plan to make some adjustments and figure out a better stand to alleviate the need for it, so it'll go back to being a bit smaller.

Could the new thumb board fit in the older cases while sacrificing the corner 1x key/angle adjustability? I could deal with less flexibility for a more compact board, similar to your original test case here:

Also, that arm for the thumb board looks like it could be used as an adjustable foot for tenting. Would probably work better than the fixed angle brackets from a while back.

Yes, and thats basically how the new layout works. Right now, the design of the adjustable case and some issues with the acrylic are pushing me to the idea of doing a non adjustable version, like the other designs ive done, with the new thumb cluster brought in close. The adjustable version would be 3D printed/IMed as ABS would be a better material choice.

For me I'll say which ever design that benefits ergonomic totally works for me. Looking forward to the release.

That's what I'm aiming for

The hinged thumb cluster design is fantastic! Good work! In my testing of various thumb cluster designs and placements, an angled thumb cluster definitely feels best IMHO. Positioning is fairly important, so it's a good idea to have a broad group of beta testers with different hand sizes and shapes.

Again, very nice work. The size is okay for a "permanent" desktop setup, but too big to be really portable, IMO, but I like really minimalist designs, so there is some bias

Seeing your progress was what actually inspired my work! I'm hoping to reduce the size with further iterations as well as a design developed with proper molded cases in mind. It may not end up travel size, but I'm hoping to get it close!

[linziyi]

I guess an adjustable thumb-cluster distant from the main cluster would be very nice for people with smaller hands.

My suggestion is to make a slider with gear teeth on it and a lock, but this will require a new design if we are to keep the adjustable angle... Not sure if I expressed myself clear enough, I can draw if that makes it more clear.

[AcidFire]

The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.

[JPG]

Maybe you could add some kind of silicone washers to reduce the direct pressure on acrylic? And maybe a locking mechanism to lock the screw in place so that it would keep the pressure the same and not lose it?

Just ideas 

[linziyi]

The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.

Yes that's what I am saying... So it is very difficult to incorporate both adjustable angle and adjustable distant.

[AcidFire]

The problem with teeth is that they can wear over time, and the added issue with acrylic is that they can crack with the right amount of pressure. The other problem with teeth is when your preferred spot happens to fall half way between two. This is why you'll usually see most things that are adjustable are done with a friction mount, almost always tightened with a thumb screw. You can go to smaller teeth to get around this issue, but breakage becomes even more of an issue.

Yes that's what I am saying... So it is very difficult to incorporate both adjustable angle and adjustable distant.

Actually the arm I currently have for it supports both. If I make the move to a 3D printed/IMed case, I can reduce a number of angles further and allow for even more adjustment, however right now I'm still working around the thickness of the acrylic and the need for a reasonable border around any holes to prevent breakage.

[Oobly]

[quoteauthor=AcidFire link=topic=44940.msg1085229#msg1085229 date=1382381750]

Seeing your progress was what actually inspired my work! I'm hoping to reduce the size with further iterations as well as a design developed with proper molded cases in mind. It may not end up travel size, but I'm hoping to get it close!
[/quote]

Wow, I'm flattered! Your design is coming along very nicely and it's fantastic that you're keeping production methods in mind at each step. I'm really excited to see how it progresses.

[wasabah]

This looks awesome.. I'll keep a close eye on this.
And will most likely end up buying.. as far as there will be international shipping?

[wasabah]

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:

Show Image

Somehow I overlooked this one before.. I saw the 70% version and was like "if it would just be angled".
Dude.. lost for words here!!
Except maybe: give it to me. NOW!!!!

[AcidFire]

This looks awesome.. I'll keep a close eye on this.
And will most likely end up buying.. as far as there will be international shipping?

Yup, nothing pisses me off more than to not be able purchase something because the shipping isn't available to Canada. I would hate to do that to someone else.

Oh, and since I mentioned a third design:

Show Image

Somehow I overlooked this one before.. I saw the 70% version and was like "if it would just be angled".
Dude.. lost for words here!!
Except maybe: give it to me. NOW!!!!

I'm glad you like it :D

[kittykatmax]

Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

[linziyi]

Have you considered incorporating a IBM red dot pointing sitck kind of thing into the keyboard? It would be certainly most welcomed!

[utku]

Wow! Okay I've just signed up to GH to praise the 70% ergo design. Congratulations man!

As someone who followed TypeMatrix -> TrulyErgonomic -> ErgoDox path recently, 70% ergo seems like a dream.

1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
3. Bluetooth. Obvious.

I'd love a thinkpad style trackpoint there in the middle but let's not get carried away Kudos to you.

[wasabah]

1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!

Exactly!!

[AcidFire]

Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster

Wow! Okay I've just signed up to GH to praise the 70% ergo design. Congratulations man!

As someone who followed TypeMatrix -> TrulyErgonomic -> ErgoDox path recently, 70% ergo seems like a dream.

1. It gives me back 12 sweet keys that can be mapped for F-keys. This is one thing I hate most on ErgoDox. F-keys on another layer kills the conveniency of F-keys, especially for programmers.
2. One piece design. I've found two piece design of ErgoDox to be a curse as well as a blessing. It makes me constantly tweak and reposition the thing. I'm absolutely okay with the fixed angle of TrulyErgonomic, any angle larger than 0 is okay for me. And also one piece design means LAP TIME!
3. Bluetooth. Obvious.

I'd love a thinkpad style trackpoint there in the middle but let's not get carried away Kudos to you.

Have you considered incorporating a IBM red dot pointing sitck kind of thing into the keyboard? It would be certainly most welcomed!

Some updated design notes which will cover some of this stuff:
*** Casing & Electronics ***
With the move to molded plastic more likely, this may actually free up more space in my cases below the key clusters. This in turn should hopefully free up enough space for a couple of things:

1) The extra space should hopefully allow me to move the control electronics for the clusters from the top/sides of the boards to separate modules underneath. This would allow me to reduce the size of the existing case designs, AND provide a possible case option that would allow the existing designs to have an additional row added to them for use as function keys. With the additional space at the edges, any unused rows on the matrix can be potentially broken out for use by you enterprising modders.

2) More space also means that the USB & 3.5mm connection jacks would no longer be required to be a part of the main cluster, allowing users to choose which USB type they want (MicroB or MiniB), and how many 3.5mm connection points are available. This reduces cost on the base model.

3) I had made a bit of a mistake earlier with the selection of the I/O expander I was planning to use for reading keypresses. Instead of using a PCA9555, I'll be using a PCA9675. The great thing is, the pins are basically identical, so there are only slight modifications required of the existing design for the new addressing. The new expanders allow for up to 64 devices on a single bus. Now, in practical use, this will be reduced to 16, as addresses need to be left available for LED control as well as the device configuration switches.

4) Tested a plate with the arrow clusters in a position similar to the TECK. I like it. There will be a version of the main cluster keys available with it if I choose not to include it as part of the base model.

Going forward, this means a huge step in flexibility/modibility. Instead of each cluster design having a dedicated section for the control electronics, they will be an add on. This adds very little to the existing cost, and reduces the cost of future changes to your boards. It also reduces the size of the cluster PCBs, and thus the size of the units themselves.

Each controller board will consist of:
 * 1x PCA9675 (8x8 Board - 64 Keys) or PCA9670(4x4 Board - 16 Keys) - This is the I/O expander that will be reading keypresses.
 * 1x PCA9670 - This additional expander will act as a set of configurable dip switches (using shunts to stay cheap), telling the main CPU unit what kind of set up it is, whether it has a backlight, etc. I'm also considering using it purely as an address system, potentially setting aside a block of addresses, with the remaining open to custom user set up. A config file on the microSD card would instruct the CPU unit on how to handle each device.
* 1x PCA9685 - LED Controller, handling control of the individual LEDs on each key. I may offer a version without this section populated for those not interested in a backlight, again reducing cost.

This also changes things like the RGB indicator lights that were added. This was an add-on that added additional cost to the base unit, but with the new design not only will you be able to decide whether you need it, but potentially where it might mount in the casing as well.

I know all of this sounds complicated, especially to those of you who just want a damn keyboard. Fear not, for all of this will come pre configured in the kits & finished boards, and exists solely for flexibility & customization for those who wish to do so. Believe it or not, this all also helps to reduce costs, and increase the number of options for key layout and the like for the initial launch.

And yes, I'm still looking into adding a nub mouse controller

[Loligagger]

F keys and a micro usb connector? Yes please.

Any estimate for how close we are to putting up the kickstarter?

[kurplop]

Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster

She can be quite charming, can't she?

[Niomosy]

F keys?  Sweetness!  This could end up very interesting. 

[AcidFire]

F keys and a micro usb connector? Yes please.

Any estimate for how close we are to putting up the kickstarter?

Not yet, I'm still working out a number of things with the basic firmware first. I know I'm slipping past my timeline, unfortunately life, especially the freelance work I'm doing to continue funding this, keep getting in the way.

She can be quite charming, can't she?

Yes, and I feel for anyone who continually suffers at the hands of a terrible keyboard. It was feedback from her, my girlfriend and a couple of the girls in the office that prompted me to look for a better solution for the sizing.

F keys?  Sweetness!  This could end up very interesting. 

I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.

Speaking of options, I should have mentioned that the new controller set up would actually allow for the design of Alps, Topre & buckling spring boards, as far as I can tell.

Edit: And I completely forgot to mention that moving the controls to a sub board means I can go back to a double sided design for things like the main cluster, reducing design & assembly complexity on my end, and the price of the kits as well.

[kittykatmax]

Loving the new design with the thumb cluster hinge.  Cannot WAIT for this to be available for purchase - especially now that I'm suffering from "tennis elbow" (both arms /sigh) from using a "normal" tenkeyless keyboard.

You were one of the people on a list in my head concerned about size & angle, and thus one of the reasons I started working on an adjustable cluster

<3

[BlueByLiquid]

Just checking up on the thread (I've been gone doing other things). Love the new design for the adjustable angle!

[Niomosy]

I know a number of people have asked about it, and I don't see why I can't make a version of the board available with the F keys right from the start, the new controller setup should handle it nicely.

That alone would be quite nice for me.  I've come to accept that most any ergo keyboard is going to make me put the brackets in an odd place so I can keep the other right-hand keys in their normal QWERTY locations but having a Function row to keep Esc and ~ in their proper locations (and make it easier for to use the FX keys with various commands and in gaming) is quite pleasant.

On top of that, sounds like you've been quite busy with all the work getting put into this.  I'm sure the Alps/Topre fanbase will have some good fun with the potential for adding those switches in

[tp4tissue]

I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.

The Yellow gap in the picture is where the thumb would naturally fall, without extension to cross the gap into the "current" thumb key system.


I highlighted in the enclosed picture what I'm talking about..

The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers

[Oobly]

My take on the thumb clusters:



I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.

[AcidFire]

My take on the thumb clusters:

(Attachment Link)

I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.

I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.

The Yellow gap in the picture is where the thumb would naturally fall, without extension to cross the gap into the "current" thumb key system.


I highlighted in the enclosed picture what I'm talking about..

The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers

Both of you make sense, and this is why I'm happy with my modular design. Just because I'm designing a larger cluster on the thumbs, doesn't mean it can't be switched for something smaller (and fairly easily as well.) Smaller thumb clusters will also make for a cheaper option, since the new design of the cluster controllers negates the need for one on the thumbs for smaller designs, reducing the cost. Not to mention of course, that it's cheaper with less caps & switches as well.

[Oobly]

Modular is good! Keep going with this, it's coming along very nicely. 

[AcidFire]

My take on the thumb clusters:

(Attachment Link)

I am still finalising the position and angle, but it's easy to use, you can press any combination of the buttons (even all 8 if it makes sense with your key mappings) and the pressing direction feels natural. I use Layer, Shift, Backspace and Tab on the left cluster, Ctrl, Alt, Space and Enter on the right.

I would like to be able to move the cluster "in" just a couple millimeters, but the key housings start to interfere with each other.

I really think this is the best layout (I tried a lot of different options) as you don't have to "move" your thumb around and everything is within reach.

ErgoDox and Nexus the thumb buttons are a bit of a stretch for me.

I think you'd find the core thumb buttons are fine, but yes, the ones surrounding them would be for sure. But as TP4 pointed out, those buttons would work fine as things like the function keys.

[conandy]

Wow.  Just discovered this thread (linked by an ErgoDox post) and I have to just say...wow.  Acidfire, I envy you a) your access to laser cutters and electronic parts and b) your ability to move so quickly!  You have a great project going here, and I am incredibly interested in a production unit (assembled) when you get to that point, probably both the split and the ergo 70%.  I love your commitment modularity and hackability.

I have seen others post the "I want F-keys" note, so I'll just add my 2 cents.  I am an engineer who works with AutoCAD a great deal and I am also a gamer.  Although I might be able to get used to layering the F-keys in AutoCAD, I am not sure I could learn workarounds for MMORPG stuff where there just really needs to be a lot of keys accessible to the left hand.  Granted, I could switch keyboards for gaming, but I can dream, can't I? 

I had been toying with the idea of doing my first keyboard build project ever by taking the ErgoDox project ideas and adding F keys, but after seeing all the work you have put into this project, I'd rather throw money at you than start something on my own.  I could even see adding the F-keys as an add-on module on top of the base ErgoGP case, raised and tilted at about a 60 degree angle or so (similar to the Kinesis Advantage) to keep hand movement to a minimum.

I have now subscribed to this thread, and will be anxiously awaiting the beta-testing results and looking forward, hopefully, to a production unit around Christmas! 

 

 

[tups]

Any news on how the beta or kickstarter are coming together?

I would love to get my hands on one, f-keys or not!

[bearcat]

I've been the Egdx exclusively for a long long while.

This is just my take.. but... I don't think the thumb cluster is needed at all..

We just really need 2 large- thumb keys that are CLOSER to the home cluster.
[snip]
The rest of the thumb cluster keys are rarely used, and could readily be replaced with function layers

I agree.  I found I couldn't naturally hit more than 3 thumb keys.  One directly under the thumb, one outside, and one inside.  My design was here: the ctrl/alt keys are actually mapped to spacebar etc., heck, you know, it's programmable   I'm making PCBs for the next version now and am looking for feedback.



Thanks!

Really looking forward to seeing how the kickstarter/groupbuy for this turns out!

[Oobly]

I've been playing SWtOR with my ergo board and am using all the keys of the left hand except the Layer and Shift buttons so far (and Esc). I'll start to map the function layer buttons next for targeting, but all my important abilities are keymapped and very quick (including heals, playing a Consular Sage with Kinetics build)

I have 6 keys instantly accessible (left, right, forward, quick heal, jump and select next target) and 11 more just one key away from the home positions (the other abilities I need to be fast). Using the function layer I gain access to another 15 bindable keys which are good for anything that doesn't have to be lightning-quick. The third layer which contains all the function keys on the left hand (Layer+Shift) is just as accessible (since pressing both buttons is as easy as pressing one with the thumb cluster design).

I have character screen, map, quest log and inventory mapped to the edit cluster under the alpha keys, although I'll probably change the quest log key to companion skills screen.

I never have to look at the keyboard or move my hand from the home position. FOR ME, it's way better for gaming than a "normal" board, even in MMO's with a lot of keybinds. Takes a bit of effort to learn, but becomes intuitive very quickly. Also means I don't need a crazy mouse with 100 buttons, so I can rather choose something for ergonomics and performance than number of buttons.

Three thumb buttons is probably enough for most, but I use 4 so I can get all the modifier combinations without weird contortions or using the little finger for mods.

If I got a Nexus, I'd set up the thumb clusters just like my current board with 4xsingle caps and angle the thumb cluster to suit me. The great thing is that this is completely feasible and within the design! I love it. I think this will be a VERY popular board and people will customise it to their taste

Good job so far, really looking forward to this getting to the Group Buy / Kickstarter / commercial product stage!

[conandy]

Have to say I'm with a few other posters here regarding the thumb cluster.  More that 3 keys is hard to deal with, and the current layouts of the ergodox and ergo gp have the cluster too far out. I dropped the layouts into AutoCAD and have been printing and trying them out with spare keycaps and some sticky tack.  For my little hands (with their long-ago torn thumb tendons), the thumb spread is just too far out.  I found I need to have the "space bar" equivalent thumb key located right under the B key (qwerty) on the left hand, and N on the right, with like 2mm spacing between corner of the thumb key and the B or N key.  This sort of interferes with the bottom row of the main key matrix, though.  Still playing with it.  I like some of Kurplop's experiments going on with his keyboard layouts.   I know AcidFire has indicated that the dropped thumb cluster and now the angled down thumb cluster really make it an easier reach, but I may be a statistical outlier as far as this goes.    We'll see.

Great thing about this project is that the thumb cluster is re-position-able and now... hinged! 

I also feel like I needed more column stagger, so I'm gonna try the raw Key64 layout with the increased stagger to the columns.  My fingers are very different in length and my pinky is really short, so we'll see where that goes.  I  may end up with a complete home-made version of this to suit my needs, but hey, that is what this site is all about.  Sharing ideas.

Excited to see this project come to fruition.  Keep up the great work, Acidfire.

[conandy]

I've been playing SWtOR with my ergo board and am using all the keys of the left hand except the Layer and Shift buttons so far (and Esc). I'll start to map the function layer buttons next for targeting, but all my important abilities are keymapped and very quick (including heals, playing a Consular Sage with Kinetics build)

I have 6 keys instantly accessible (left, right, forward, quick heal, jump and select next target) and 11 more just one key away from the home positions (the other abilities I need to be fast). Using the function layer I gain access to another 15 bindable keys which are good for anything that doesn't have to be lightning-quick. The third layer which contains all the function keys on the left hand (Layer+Shift) is just as accessible (since pressing both buttons is as easy as pressing one with the thumb cluster design).

I have character screen, map, quest log and inventory mapped to the edit cluster under the alpha keys, although I'll probably change the quest log key to companion skills screen.

I never have to look at the keyboard or move my hand from the home position. FOR ME, it's way better for gaming than a "normal" board, even in MMO's with a lot of keybinds. Takes a bit of effort to learn, but becomes intuitive very quickly. Also means I don't need a crazy mouse with 100 buttons, so I can rather choose something for ergonomics and performance than number of buttons.

Three thumb buttons is probably enough for most, but I use 4 so I can get all the modifier combinations without weird contortions or using the little finger for mods.

If I got a Nexus, I'd set up the thumb clusters just like my current board with 4xsingle caps and angle the thumb cluster to suit me. The great thing is that this is completely feasible and within the design! I love it. I think this will be a VERY popular board and people will customise it to their taste

Good job so far, really looking forward to this getting to the Group Buy / Kickstarter / commercial product stage!

Oobly, your point regarding getting used to the key layout and getting around the extra keys is well taken, regarding gaming.  I think if I take the time to train myself to truly touch type (one of the reasons I want a split ergo board is to force myself), I'll also train myself to touch-game (is that a word?  is now...).   I'm a VERY casual, and occasional gamer, wish I had time to do more, frankly. 

I have always wondered why all the modifier keys on a normal keyboard are under the pinkies, rather than the thumbs.  If Thumbkeys are modifiers, so much more is possible one-handed.  The pinky modifiers essentially force a two-handed keying.   This is probably OK for typists and programmers, but not so great for gaming or CAD work.  I see anything that makes me remove my right hand from the mouses as being un-desirable.   Have CTL and ALT under the thumb creates a lot of one handed modifier double keystroke options without twisting my hand at incredibly awkward angles.   

Pinkies are such overworked weaklings of the hands.  Here's to more thumb usage!  I may have just talked myself into trying to figure out how to use more of the plethora of thumb keys Acidfire is putting into this project (re: my other post regarding thumb keys).