Author Topic: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?  (Read 15528 times)

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Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 06:42:43 »
I just spent the last... you know what, I'm embarrassed to even say how long, but I spent that obscene amount of time attempting to install this new cpu. Got it in there once, only to realize 'You dummy, you forgot to update the bios!'. So I take it back out, clean it off, reinstall my old 2500k, then proceed to tear my skin off trying to flash the new bios version. Now I'd never had to do this on my current rig, so little did I know a "REALLY GREAT FEATURE" called Fast Boot had been automatically enabled. Now I dunno if you're familiar with Fast Boot, but it's this wonderful thing ASUS mobo's have that disables all your usb devices until AFTER Windows has launched. "Wait a sec" you say wisely spying the glaring flaw "then how are you supposed to access the bios when all the usb devices have been disabled?" And by gum, you'd be absolutely right! You freaking can't! And because it's a bios setting you cannot have the sliver of human decency and convenience to be able to change that while in Windows. Oh what fun, oh what joy I had today trying to figure that complete bull**** out! A waste of an entire day, and what's more I wound up being too frustrated and tired after finally getting my bios updated to even attempt reinstalling the 3770k.

I already can predict this will end tomorrow with the DRAM led still lighting up with no post when using the new cpu, and me defenestration my computer right out the third story of the building.

Argh. Sorry to hear that, especially just before Christmas. Soldier on, mate. Wish you luck.

Offline Steezus

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #101 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 07:25:27 »
I just spent the last... you know what, I'm embarrassed to even say how long, but I spent that obscene amount of time attempting to install this new cpu. Got it in there once, only to realize 'You dummy, you forgot to update the bios!'. So I take it back out, clean it off, reinstall my old 2500k, then proceed to tear my skin off trying to flash the new bios version. Now I'd never had to do this on my current rig, so little did I know a "REALLY GREAT FEATURE" called Fast Boot had been automatically enabled. Now I dunno if you're familiar with Fast Boot, but it's this wonderful thing ASUS mobo's have that disables all your usb devices until AFTER Windows has launched. "Wait a sec" you say wisely spying the glaring flaw "then how are you supposed to access the bios when all the usb devices have been disabled?" And by gum, you'd be absolutely right! You freaking can't! And because it's a bios setting you cannot have the sliver of human decency and convenience to be able to change that while in Windows. Oh what fun, oh what joy I had today trying to figure that complete bull**** out! A waste of an entire day, and what's more I wound up being too frustrated and tired after finally getting my bios updated to even attempt reinstalling the 3770k.

I already can predict this will end tomorrow with the DRAM led still lighting up with no post when using the new cpu, and me defenestration my computer right out the third story of the building.

While you're loaded into Windows you can have the computer reboot straight into BIOs. I keep fast boot on so anytime I need to access the BIOs I just do it through Windows.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #102 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 07:52:09 »
This seems to be a good place to pose this inquiry:

Sometime in the coming weeks or months I plan to buy a new motherboard/CPU/RAM (which will also necessitate buying Windows, which I have avoided so far via the free upgrade route to 10 from 7/8) for the first time in about 5 years.

I want something with reasonable power but I am not a gamer, so my real criteria are somewhat future-proofing and dependability, although I have no objection to buying "last year's model" to economize.

There is a MicroCenter in town, so I am very fortunate in that regard with all the specials and package deals that they usually offer. Without getting into specific models or numbers, considering a budget in the range of $200-250 for motherboard and processor + $100-150 for RAM, what architecture should I look at?

On Intel vs AMD I am agnostic and have had good experiences with AMD in the past.

Thanks!

 
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #103 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 08:37:09 »
This seems to be a good place to pose this inquiry:

Sometime in the coming weeks or months I plan to buy a new motherboard/CPU/RAM (which will also necessitate buying Windows, which I have avoided so far via the free upgrade route to 10 from 7/8) for the first time in about 5 years.

I want something with reasonable power but I am not a gamer, so my real criteria are somewhat future-proofing and dependability, although I have no objection to buying "last year's model" to economize.

There is a MicroCenter in town, so I am very fortunate in that regard with all the specials and package deals that they usually offer. Without getting into specific models or numbers, considering a budget in the range of $200-250 for motherboard and processor + $100-150 for RAM, what architecture should I look at?

On Intel vs AMD I am agnostic and have had good experiences with AMD in the past.

Thanks!

 


You prolly need Threadrippa to stay relevant , because it's really easy for software developers to (unnecessarily) Use a crap ton of CPU power due to lazy development.

For example, Battle.net downloads,  some asshol accountant on their end figured they could save on bandwidth bill by high-compression.

This high compression leads to 100% CPU utility while downloading their games on the consumer end.  So now the download speed is dependent on how fast the CPU is on the buyer end, using a crap-ton of Electricity, JUST SO Blizzard can work out a slightly improved balance sheet.  That compression they're using is insanely power intensive.

It really should be illegal for them to do this.

But this is the kind of scenario we're going to run into in the future as AMD opens the door for more cores.

This power-creep will happen on everything, not just games.

I recommend at least a 3900x if cost is a concern.

GPU,  Right now, Turing 20xx series on Nvidia has alot of driver issues. Without competition for the top bracket from AMD, Nvidia is still sandbagging on features and performance.  I'd wait this out until AMD brings parity.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #104 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 08:38:01 »
I already can predict this will end tomorrow with the DRAM led still lighting up with no post when using the new cpu, and me defenestration my computer right out the third story of the building.

Yea, but this is ONLY THE BEGINNING,

Overclocking is another 10-20 hours of FUNNNNNN....

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #105 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 08:56:42 »
This seems to be a good place to pose this inquiry:

Sometime in the coming weeks or months I plan to buy a new motherboard/CPU/RAM (which will also necessitate buying Windows, which I have avoided so far via the free upgrade route to 10 from 7/8) for the first time in about 5 years.

I want something with reasonable power but I am not a gamer, so my real criteria are somewhat future-proofing and dependability, although I have no objection to buying "last year's model" to economize.

There is a MicroCenter in town, so I am very fortunate in that regard with all the specials and package deals that they usually offer. Without getting into specific models or numbers, considering a budget in the range of $200-250 for motherboard and processor + $100-150 for RAM, what architecture should I look at?

On Intel vs AMD I am agnostic and have had good experiences with AMD in the past.

Thanks!

 

If you aren't a gamer, then AMD seems to be the better choice these days — if you need workstation power. I'm not really familiar with the 1st & 2nd gen Ryzens, but 3500-3900(x) ones seem to pack more workstation performance than Intel in the same price bracket, plus cheaper mobos, in the upper middle end and perhaps lower upper end. When you take it even further, Intel does seem to be cheaper for the same performance with the 9700K, except for extreme workstation use.

If you choose intel, it probably makes the most sense to buy 9th gen and skip older generations.

Offline Steezus

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #106 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 10:13:47 »
This seems to be a good place to pose this inquiry:

Sometime in the coming weeks or months I plan to buy a new motherboard/CPU/RAM (which will also necessitate buying Windows, which I have avoided so far via the free upgrade route to 10 from 7/8) for the first time in about 5 years.

I want something with reasonable power but I am not a gamer, so my real criteria are somewhat future-proofing and dependability, although I have no objection to buying "last year's model" to economize.

There is a MicroCenter in town, so I am very fortunate in that regard with all the specials and package deals that they usually offer. Without getting into specific models or numbers, considering a budget in the range of $200-250 for motherboard and processor + $100-150 for RAM, what architecture should I look at?

On Intel vs AMD I am agnostic and have had good experiences with AMD in the past.

Thanks!

 


You prolly need Threadrippa to stay relevant , because it's really easy for software developers to (unnecessarily) Use a crap ton of CPU power due to lazy development.

For example, Battle.net downloads,  some asshol accountant on their end figured they could save on bandwidth bill by high-compression.

This high compression leads to 100% CPU utility while downloading their games on the consumer end.  So now the download speed is dependent on how fast the CPU is on the buyer end, using a crap-ton of Electricity, JUST SO Blizzard can work out a slightly improved balance sheet.  That compression they're using is insanely power intensive.

It really should be illegal for them to do this.

But this is the kind of scenario we're going to run into in the future as AMD opens the door for more cores.

This power-creep will happen on everything, not just games.

I recommend at least a 3900x if cost is a concern.

GPU,  Right now, Turing 20xx series on Nvidia has alot of driver issues. Without competition for the top bracket from AMD, Nvidia is still sandbagging on features and performance.  I'd wait this out until AMD brings parity.


You recommended him a CPU that costs twice as much that he budgeted for both the mobo and CPU. He also said that he does not play any video games so I'm not sure why you're recommending top-tier parts. I just uninstalled Hearthstone and reinstalled it on Battle.net to test your claims and my 3900x did not use more than 10% of the CPU while downloading. Rather than recommending the best parts to him, why not extract more information so you can recommend parts that are tailored to fit his needs.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #107 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 11:44:07 »

You recommended him a CPU that costs twice as much that he budgeted for both the mobo and CPU. He also said that he does not play any video games so I'm not sure why you're recommending top-tier parts. I just uninstalled Hearthstone and reinstalled it on Battle.net to test your claims and my 3900x did not use more than 10% of the CPU while downloading. Rather than recommending the best parts to him, why not extract more information so you can recommend parts that are tailored to fit his needs.

Bnet download cpu use depends on the connection speed.

I have 1 gigabit connection.  it downloads at ~80MB/s and that chews in 100% 6 core 12 thread cpu.

If your connection speed is only 100-200 Mbit, whicn is only 25MB/s  that obviously won't take much CPU, because you're not decompressing at a high rate.

My point is simply, it's criminal for them to use compression that way, because it greatly magnifies the total power use from delivery to no great purpose except Superficial savings on bandwidth..

TERRIBLE for the environment.

I am not sure on hearth stone, or if they use variable compression method per game/ per region, but try a larger game, like overwatch.



Offline Sniping

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #108 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 12:24:49 »
I think the most important factor to me is just having fast storage, if I had that kind of budget I'd only leave $100 for ram and maybe $100-$150 for a CPU and just spend the rest on fast storage. if we're talking development here you'll for sure want fast storage for quickly opening up workspaces and IDE's. I think $100 affords around 16gb ram which is a pleasant amount. 
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Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #109 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 14:11:11 »
Sigh. I've just found out that one year ago and even half a year ago used 7700Ks sold for 1/3 less than they do now, at least where I live.

For ease of reference, once again, my current rig is i5-6600 (non-K), Asrock Fatal1ty K6 z170, 2x8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 3000/15 (DDR4), (Colorful) GTX 1070ti (8+8).

Options include:

7700K, used: ~$310, perhaps 260 if I keep waiting and am lucky ($50 less than a 9700K, WTF!)
6700K, used: ~$210 and going up
7600K, used, delidded + liquid metal applied, vendor claims does 5 GHz < 70C: ~$210
7600K, used, with MSI Tomahawk z270: ~$230 (this has 2 M.2 slots, which I find useful due to already owning a 256GB NVM drive (and only 1 slot on my current mobo; with the Tomahawk I could add a new SDD instead of swapping)
6600K, used: ~$130

9600K, used: ~$200 cheapest, which is great, but the mobos start at at least $130–140.

Edit: i3-8350K, used: ~$120, this probably undermines the position of 7600K on the list

I won't bore you with the details, but AMD is not an option.

My own mobo goes for around $100-125 used (not sure who in his right mind would pay the price, though), the non-K 6600 often sells better than the K (people like low TDPs?). So by not bundling them, and by putting them through slow bidding auctions without a BuyNow option, I could probably easily recover the cost of e.g. buying a 7600K with a z270 mobo. If not, the loss would be minimal.

And of course there's the option to try to hack my bios to allow me to OC the heck out of the CPU I already have, though I'd need to buy two 12cm Noctuas for my CPU heatsink. Not sure how far non-K OC goes.

What would you guys suggest?

Due to December being a good month financially, I'm not as cash-limited as I usually am, but I'd normally find it hard to justify spending $500 on just the CPU and mobo. I have other expenses, too, so to avoid crossing the point of highly diminished returns would be ideal — basically the best bang for the buck would be ideal. The 7700K, while topping out on my existing slot, is not ideal, as it's just a single-digit percentage improvement in performance over 6700K or 7600K in many applications while costing 50% extra.

I've just checked, and for work I need as much single-core performance as possible, because SDL Trados coders apparently can't learn to use multi-core in 2019. I'll probably OC the CPU for work because of this, just to avoid slowdowns and lag when translating huge files (20K words plus heavy macros, lots of formatting, etc.) segment by segment with humongous XML-based memories and IATE-sized multiterm dictionaries attached (all of which gets parsed every time you confirm a sentence, which means up to a dozen times a minute).

For games, well, it seems i7's are finally gaining a large lead over i5's, obviously probably due to more cores. But at least games use multiple cores these days and any i5 has 4 or 6 of them, even mine.

There's also, I guess, the option to wait for 10000 CPUs to come out. But let's say I were buying right now, from the list above. What would you suggest?

At this point I've half a mind to grab the cheapest 6600K possible and then put my 6600 on a long auction just for the meantime. That's a $80 difference to a 7600K/6700K! And I'd probably come close to a net 0 loss.

What would you do?

Edit: I've just realized that i3-9100 (4-core) is about on par with 6700K/7600K before you start OC-ing. Those little things are ridiculously cheap at $90-ish. That and the cost of the mobo would be about the same range as 7600K with no mobo. The i3-8350K is about $25 more expensive, and it's basically identical to the i5-7600K. For me, it's the kind of OC'ing CPU I wouldn't really lose my sleep over bricking if something went wrong. Afterwards, I could keep an eye out for Coffee Lake i7s.

However, I'm quite excited about the delid 7600K, which I guess I could push harder. But then, I wouldn't have a new mobo (and the ability to sell my current one). Still, the difference in performance between 7600K and 6600K — a single-digit percentage — is not large enough to justify the difference in price as per the above lists, and I'm not sure the good delid on the 7600K makes up for it versus just grabbing a 6600K as cheap as possible.

Heck, I've just realized my i5-6600 could probably sell for more than I'd have to pay for the 8–9th generation i3's.

One seller is selling the 8350K and MSI Z370 Gaming mobo for $205 total. Do I take them?

The reasoning: I pay $205 for these things now. I slow-sell the Asrock Fatal1ty and the locked 6600 for as much as I can, through a long bidding auction, meaning certainty that I will at least sell, perhaps unprofitably, but probably not far below $180 in total. Let's double the difference, so let's say I'm paying $50 net plus some time.

However, I might as well splurge out already and set my eyes on the 9600K. What say ye?

EDIT: Just found another 8350K for $90 and got that MSI Z370 Gaming Plus mobo from the first guy for $80.

If this works, I'm gonna have a mobo that has my exact RAM on its QVL and room for the whole range of Coffee Lake up to i9, and a processor that clocks at 4 Ghz and still has 4 cores, great for a lot of games I play, plus the work. I'm going to send it for professional delidding, buy two 12 cm fans (or actually 14 + converters / 14 on 12 mounts…) for the Thermalright Ultra and fry.

Oh, and sell the Asrock and the i5-6600. Who knows if not for about the same money I've just paid. Probably not much less.

Just hope nothing's broken.

Will keep you guys posted. Thanks for putting up with me so far.
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 December 2019, 18:04:13 by NewbieOneKenobi »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #110 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:47:38 »
You prolly need Threadrippa to stay relevant

Drugs are bad, m'kay.


If you aren't a gamer, then AMD seems to be the better choice these days
Only if you are talking very top end, like 2080 GPUs.
Average people are buying AMD, not Intel. Intel can't hardly give away I3, I5 with I7 beings sold to people who already have an I3 or I5 and want an upgrade.

Basically the only Intel selling well to gamers is the 9900k and KS.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #111 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 18:01:01 »
I think the most important factor to me is just having fast storage, if I had that kind of budget I'd only leave $100 for ram and maybe $100-$150 for a CPU and just spend the rest on fast storage. if we're talking development here you'll for sure want fast storage for quickly opening up workspaces and IDE's. I think $100 affords around 16gb ram which is a pleasant amount.
Ryzen 3600X with either current or last gen B series motherboard and 32gigs ram. This puts you about on par with an Intel 8700K, and it will be a beast.
Or, go 16gigs ram and and get a 3700 or 3700K putting you between a 9th gen I7 and I9 then later add another 16gigs.

Just make sure the ram is certified to work (motherboard manufacturers have lists), while not as necessary as it was on earlier Ryzen, it makes for a painless install.

As for Windows,
Is yours oem or retail?  If it's a retail copy you can download tools to extract the activation codes and move it to a new system. I'd pull the code, upgrade to Win10 then pull the new code just to be hassle free. Worst case, buy a code off Ebay for $2-10.


I think the most important factor to me is just having fast storage, if I had that kind of budget I'd only leave $100 for ram and maybe $100-$150 for a CPU and just spend the rest on fast storage. if we're talking development here you'll for sure want fast storage for quickly opening up workspaces and IDE's. I think $100 affords around 16gb ram which is a pleasant amount.
You can add an NVME slot to any board with a free pcie slot for less than $20. It's not directly bootable, but that is easy to fix if you have a second drive, or just use it purely as a data drive. Beware, anything older than 3rd gen will probably be severely bottlenecked by the chipset, still better than a sata drive, but it won't be close to nvme data speeds probably. Make sure it's not a normal ssd on a card, check dtaa rates because even if it's bottlenecked you want higher speed for later upgrades.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #112 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 18:07:17 »
Asrock Fatal1ty K6 z170[/url], 2x8GB G.Skill Ripjaws 3000/15 (DDR4), (Colorful) GTX 1070ti (8+8).

7700K, used: ~$310, perhaps 260 if I keep waiting and am lucky ($50 less than a 9700K, WTF!)
Some 170 boards support some 7th gen chips but generally they only support 6th gen. Check first.


What would you guys suggest?
Either sell the board/chip combo and buy newer or simply invest in 32gigs ram and/or faster ssd which can be moved to a newer setup later.

The price to performance you are looking at by simply switching to a K series isn't worth what you are going to spend.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #113 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 20:18:57 »

As for Windows,
Is yours oem or retail?  If it's a retail copy you can download tools to extract the activation codes and move it to a new system. I'd pull the code, upgrade to Win10 then pull the new code just to be hassle free. Worst case, buy a code off Ebay for $2-10.


Was this to me? I have a full retail 8.1 that has been used on at least 2 different motherboards in the past.
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Offline Larken

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #114 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 21:00:21 »
This seems to be a good place to pose this inquiry:

Sometime in the coming weeks or months I plan to buy a new motherboard/CPU/RAM (which will also necessitate buying Windows, which I have avoided so far via the free upgrade route to 10 from 7/8) for the first time in about 5 years.

I want something with reasonable power but I am not a gamer, so my real criteria are somewhat future-proofing and dependability, although I have no objection to buying "last year's model" to economize.

There is a MicroCenter in town, so I am very fortunate in that regard with all the specials and package deals that they usually offer. Without getting into specific models or numbers, considering a budget in the range of $200-250 for motherboard and processor + $100-150 for RAM, what architecture should I look at?

On Intel vs AMD I am agnostic and have had good experiences with AMD in the past.

Thanks!

 

Ryzen 3600 + a b450 mobo is pretty much the go-to recommendation right now for gamers, but imo it's a pretty good value for non-gamers as well. You could go for the X version, but general consensus is that it is poor value; the only differences appears to be a better stock cooler (Wraith Prism for the X) and a slight bump in stock clock speeds (which is pointless imo because the auto-OC algorithm (PBO2) these CPUs have makes them run similarly). You'd want rams that's at least 3200mhz for Ryzen 3000 series chips; these chips benefit significantly from fast memory. Personally, I'd get the non-X 3600 and use the price difference to get an aftermarket cooler that performs better than the Prism (which to be fair, is a decent stock cooler, just not amazing).

Future proofing wise in terms of upgrade paths, you're not going to get much. AMD only promised to support AM4 compatibility up to 2020; so you're going to get 1 more generation of chips to choose from in the future should you want a drop in chip upgrade before AMD releases a new socket (still better than Intel in this aspect).

Hardware wise, there are some who would say going 8 cores (i.e. 3700x) would be more future proof, but YMMV. The performance increase is nice, but performance/$ is generally on a diminishing return curve past the 3600 on Ryzen 3rd gen, unless you do have a use for the extra cores (for some applications, the extra performance/$ is can be close to linear depending on your choice of brands). I think where you land in terms of chip choice really depends on your budget and whether you need the power.

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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #115 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 21:48:29 »
Weirdest thing with this new cpu I've never seen. I've got 4x4gb ram and it won't boot with the full 16 in there. I tried it with just one to make sure it wasn't the cpu and it still didn't boot (red blinking DRAM led on the mobo) I then tried each of the 4 sticks alone in each slot and still got the red blinking DRAM led. Just for fun I try using only 2 sticks and it worked! Why and how? And they only work in two specific slots the furthest from the cpu, not any other way.

It's so weird, but for now I'm gonna have to get by with 8gb ram until I can either figure this out or replace them with 2 8's instead.

If anyone knows why this would happen please enlighten me. I tried forcing specific wattage for ram in bios which did nothing, it just won't boot with all 4 sticks.

Offline Larken

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #116 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 23:01:51 »
Try lowering the speed or looser timings. Some times that solves the issue. Had to run my ram slower than it was rated for when using 4 sticks instead of 2 in my current system or it wouldn't post as well.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #117 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 23:09:09 »
Try lowering the speed or looser timings. Some times that solves the issue. Had to run my ram slower than it was rated for when using 4 sticks instead of 2 in my current system or it wouldn't post as well.

Also, try overclocking the chipset / memory controller, or giving it more voltage.

might also try to disable auto-training, because that could auto set/ detect mem-timings which would not work.

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #118 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 01:05:03 »
Try lowering the speed or looser timings. Some times that solves the issue. Had to run my ram slower than it was rated for when using 4 sticks instead of 2 in my current system or it wouldn't post as well.

Also, try overclocking the chipset / memory controller, or giving it more voltage.

might also try to disable auto-training, because that could auto set/ detect mem-timings which would not work.


eh, just attempted overvolting the ram and lowering their frequency to 1333 respectively. Neither attempt worked, but I appreciate the suggestions since I'd not tried those yet.

It's frustrating knowing all 4 sticks work but refuse to work together even though they have been doing so for about 7 years. I'll probably just wind up ordering a 2x8 set, this is more annoyance than it's worth by this point. I thought it must be the bios update, but they were all working fine when I had the 2500k in there. It really makes no sense to me.

Offline romevi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 02:07:34 »
Currently using CRT as my second monitor. Maybe it's time to backgrade.

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #120 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 02:49:41 »
Currently using CRT as my second monitor. Maybe it's time to backgrade.

My hero!

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #121 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 04:14:11 »
Was this to me? I have a full retail 8.1 that has been used on at least 2 different motherboards in the past.
I thought it was, but I was in a hurry.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #122 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 08:39:23 »
Currently using CRT as my second monitor. Maybe it's time to backgrade.

I've avoided wasting my CRT Gun-Life on anything.  Only turns it on for Retro stuff like 4:3 anime, typing of the dead,  SEGA Dreamcast, etc.

This technology will never come back, what we see now is pretty much it.

The entire back end of the industry is already gone.

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #123 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 13:47:40 »
Either sell the board/chip combo and buy newer or simply invest in 32gigs ram and/or faster ssd which can be moved to a newer setup later.
The price to performance you are looking at by simply switching to a K series isn't worth what you are going to spend.

Bought the i3-8350K for the $90 (private chap who's already sent it) and spent another $95 an an MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Plus with two M.2 slots (outlet from a huge retail chain) — yay!

Hence my next purchases are going to be a bunch of fans and a larger NVM SSD.

My options are:

A-Data SX8200pro 1 TB for $160 / 0.5TB for $80 (already faster than my current drive)

vs

Samsung SM970pro 512GB for $176, allegedly 80% faster than my existing drive?

This is the SXC vs SM970pro comparison according to User Benchmark. It shows 27% extra sustained write and 70% extra mixed I/O. My work involves working with translation memories and terminological databased that be gigabytes-large and are parsed hard every time you confirm a sentence (or more rarely paragraph) as translated and move on to the next one. The biggest limiting factor is the CPU (the software is 1-core, 32-bit), but I guess a faster SSD would help. Just not sure if the difference is worth it.

And since you mentioned RAM — some $75 for another 2x8GB of what I already have (or sell mine for 60 and get something better) — would you say it's worth it or should I put the money elsewhere? (The i3-8350K is supposed to be a fun project for some tinkering and last me until there's a sweet deal on a 9700K or higher, unless I decide I don't need it.)
« Last Edit: Sat, 21 December 2019, 14:35:49 by NewbieOneKenobi »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #124 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 15:46:59 »
A-Data SX8200pro 1 TB for $160 / 0.5TB for $80 (already faster than my current drive)

vs

Samsung SM970pro 512GB for $176, allegedly 80% faster than my existing drive?


And since you mentioned RAM — some $75 for another 2x8GB of what I already have (or sell mine for 60 and get something better) — would you say it's worth it or should I put the money elsewhere? (The i3-8350K is supposed to be a fun project for some tinkering and last me until there's a sweet deal on a 9700K or higher, unless I decide I don't need it.)
I have the Adata (512Gb), works fine and from what I've seen the differences are minimal at best. I had the same choice, and picked the Adata for this very reason, the price/performance made zero sense to get the 970. Moreover, I HIGHLY doubt that cpu will be able to come close to saturating either in almost any workload other than a straight file copy.

Get the ram, I always say more ram is better than less ram* or even faster ram (unless you're Tp who seems to think everyone is a AAA pro gamer).


*Just don't go over 32gigs unless you have a specific use case as very few programs are written to take advantage of that much ram. Frankly most can't even use much more than 16, especially on Windows. Linux and Mac can use it better, but due to how those handle memory, they also have less need for it.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #125 on: Sat, 21 December 2019, 19:16:44 »
The Adata is a good Mid-tier nvme drive.

The sx8200 pro/ s11pro / hp ex950 / sabrent rocket,  are all essentially the same drive with slightly modified firmware tweaks. the usually holiday sale price is $100 for 1TB

I'd still recommend the 1tb WD Sn750, which has much higher sustained write performance end to end,  whereas because of the way SLC caching works on the adata, it has severely limited performance when the drive is near full, whereas the sn750 holds  onto near peak performance.

Amazon / newegg has the sn750 512gb for ~$70, i believe WD's site is still selling for $130 for the sn750 1tb. 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #126 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 04:16:27 »
The WD had not even had reviews when I got the Adata but I also subscribe to the idea of never coming close to filling any SSD.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #127 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 08:17:23 »
The WD had not even had reviews when I got the Adata but I also subscribe to the idea of never coming close to filling any SSD.


Tp4 only babies CRTs because they're irreplaceable.  SSDs, well they're kinda like air filters, eventually, you just gotta swap um' out, so , crank it.



Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #128 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 10:30:26 »
I've also just realized that: (1) Samsung 970 Evo is practically just as good as 970 pro while almost twice less expensive, and (2) still has AES encryption, while (3) 1TB SSDs from Samsung perform much faster than 500GB ones from the same line. Obviously there's also the problem of performance limits when the drive is near full. So another option for me is the 'buy and forget' 1TB 970 EVO. I can always sell my existing drive afterwards to help bridge the budget. Probably makes more sense to swap in the 256GB for a 1TB than buy a 500GB to run with the 256GB.

However, I'm wondering if I shouldn't instead choose a 4th-gen Corsair (whatever be that particular mate's precise product name, yarr!) coming with a heatsink already attached. Still, heatsinks can be bought separately if needed.

Sabrent has no luck making it to Poland, though I could get it from German Amazon with free shipment. The WD Sn750 is available, however.

The 4th gen nominally has much better speeds but somehow this doesn't seem to show in tests, where 4th gen drives still place behind Samsung's 970s.

I can get a 970 evo plus 1 TB for $175–190, which I'm inclined to do. Should I? (This is probably comparable to like $120 in America due to price inflation resulting from the EU's VAT, customs, and so on. The usual regular price is much higher with the large retail chains but small online sellers sometimes take it down a quarter or third.

« Last Edit: Sun, 22 December 2019, 10:45:01 by NewbieOneKenobi »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #129 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 10:52:50 »
I wouldn't pay the premium for 970 evo plus,  Even though I have 2x 1TB of um in my other pcs

I got Sn750 Heatsinked version 1TB for $100 on BF..   That's a way better deal.

Evo,  evo plus, sn750,   They're all pretty much the same in terms of consumer loads, their main advantage is sustained performance even if the drive is full, allowing you to actually use the whole capacity without detriment, stuttering.

It just comes down to price per TB,  I don't think the extra performance in the 970 evo /ev+ is worth the premium, because it's hard to generate sustained random i/o

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #130 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 12:05:20 »
Ouch. Yeah, well, $100 for 1TB is lovely, though it's unlikely to happen in Europe. Importing from a non-VAT country generally means the VAT will be applied on the border along with customs, basically meaning 30% extra, if not more. Hence it's actually better to buy from commercial importers than to import privately from abroad. Sigh.

Re: writes vs reads, sustained vs not, vs mixed, is something I can't yet wrap my mind around, but my applications include:

- keeping large, huge or outright humongous files open and parsing/pinging/searching them all the time for small chunks of data
- updating those files with small chunks of data several times a minute
- occasionally importing input files or exporting output files that are sometimes huge
- whatever's done in games (RPG, RTS, strategies, car racers)

Durability would be good to have. Not in the sense of longevity but rather pure reliability to avoid data loss from some sort of failure (temperature, power, etc.), so that the drive doesn't die on me in the middle of an ASAP/round-the-clock project where being set back by an hour or at least a couple of hours can potentially matter a great deal, which is a high-severity low-probability risk.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #132 on: Sun, 22 December 2019, 16:07:06 »
I've also just realized that: (1) Samsung 970 Evo is practically just as good as 970 pro while almost twice less expensive, and (2) still has AES encryption, while (3) 1TB SSDs from Samsung perform much faster than 500GB ones from the same line.
The SSD is broken into multiple memory chips (on larger ones), you can assign a controller to each chip, each one adding it's own bandwidth in sort of a mini raid. So if a 500 has 2 controllers, a 1tb has 4, doubling the available bandwidth.


Durability would be good to have. Not in the sense of longevity but rather pure reliability to avoid data loss from some sort of failure (temperature, power, etc.), so that the drive doesn't die on me in the middle of an ASAP/round-the-clock project where being set back by an hour or at least a couple of hours can potentially matter a great deal, which is a high-severity low-probability risk.
If you're doing a truckload of caching and need the writes, look into a small Optane drive, at least some of them are built specifically for it. Though if it was me, I'd either use a normal drive for caching or get more ram.



Tp4 only babies CRTs because they're irreplaceable.  SSDs, well they're kinda like air filters, eventually, you just gotta swap um' out, so , crank it. [/size][/color][/font]
Most of the time the only effort I put into this is buying large enough to where it doesn't matter.

I've filled them on accident a few times over the years (early adopter), but most of the time it was due to something running away/going nuts or me just not emptying trash. The only one I've had fail was due to Microsoft's decisions regarding Win10, on the bright side, it pushed me to Linux.

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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 17:32:16 »
Ooh, this thread is relevant to my interests... I'm rocking my 2012 build still, with no updates performed so far (aside from adding an SSD about a month after building it, along with a buttload more storage space).  Debating planning for some incremental upgrades (GPU/CPU) vs full CPU/GPU/RAM/Mobo. 

Current Specs
CPU: i5-3570K
GPU: Radeon HD 7850
RAM: 16 GB (4x 4 GB) DDR3-1600

I think I could definitely benefit from a new GPU (I do game a bit, but not cutting-edge and I don't mind reduced graphics - however, I do enjoy nice graphics if it's not crazy expensive).  Not sure if it's worth doing anything more than that though?  It's a lot harder for me to justify CPU/RAM upgrades without a Mobo upgrade as well because I'm marching further down an obsolete path there... 

And no, tp, I don't want to hear the good word of "Threadrippa" today.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #134 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 18:09:30 »
I wish i would have spare cash ):

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 19:15:19 »

Current Specs
CPU: i5-3570K
GPU: Radeon HD 7850
RAM: 16 GB (4x 4 GB) DDR3-1600



Depending on the game you want to play,  a 1070ti or 1660ti like noisyturtle just got is more/less a good price/ perf lvl.

Upgrading the CPU is not cost effective. faster 2133mhz / 2400mhz ram will help with Min-FPS if that's important, but prolly too expensive at this point.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #136 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 21:43:07 »
Ooh, this thread is relevant to my interests... I'm rocking my 2012 build still, with no updates performed so far (aside from adding an SSD about a month after building it, along with a buttload more storage space).  Debating planning for some incremental upgrades (GPU/CPU) vs full CPU/GPU/RAM/Mobo. 

Current Specs
CPU: i5-3570K
GPU: Radeon HD 7850
RAM: 16 GB (4x 4 GB) DDR3-1600

I think I could definitely benefit from a new GPU (I do game a bit, but not cutting-edge and I don't mind reduced graphics - however, I do enjoy nice graphics if it's not crazy expensive).  Not sure if it's worth doing anything more than that though?  It's a lot harder for me to justify CPU/RAM upgrades without a Mobo upgrade as well because I'm marching further down an obsolete path there... 

And no, tp, I don't want to hear the good word of "Threadrippa" today.

Clearly that system does need an upgrade. You've gone that long?

Offline Larken

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #137 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 22:52:58 »
Ooh, this thread is relevant to my interests... I'm rocking my 2012 build still, with no updates performed so far (aside from adding an SSD about a month after building it, along with a buttload more storage space).  Debating planning for some incremental upgrades (GPU/CPU) vs full CPU/GPU/RAM/Mobo. 

Current Specs
CPU: i5-3570K
GPU: Radeon HD 7850
RAM: 16 GB (4x 4 GB) DDR3-1600

I think I could definitely benefit from a new GPU (I do game a bit, but not cutting-edge and I don't mind reduced graphics - however, I do enjoy nice graphics if it's not crazy expensive).  Not sure if it's worth doing anything more than that though?  It's a lot harder for me to justify CPU/RAM upgrades without a Mobo upgrade as well because I'm marching further down an obsolete path there... 

And no, tp, I don't want to hear the good word of "Threadrippa" today.

Depends on how much money you want to throw at it,  but a rx580 would be a nice upgrade for the money. My system was built somewhere around the same year, with a much crappier cpu (fx 8320) with a 5870 gpu. Swapped to an 580 earlier this year and I could run most aaa games on decent settings at 1080p. Ac Odyssey was probably the worst since it is poorly optimized to begin with, but my cpu actually held it back even more (I was getting lower fps compared to online benchmarks for the 580 with a better cpu).
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #138 on: Mon, 23 December 2019, 22:58:24 »
If you can get a new 1660 ti for the same price as a used 1070 ti, why would anyone ever get the 1660?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #139 on: Tue, 24 December 2019, 02:24:52 »
Current Specs
Depending on the game you want to play,  a 1070ti or 1660ti like noisyturtle just got is more/less a good price/ perf lvl.
Upgrading the CPU is not cost effective.
This...
Your setup is aged, but it's not down for the count in my opinion, especially if it still works for you, so I'd start with the gpu. Being on DDR3 your upgrade path is a lot more limited than if you were already on DDR4 or even an older 2nd gen, which brings up another issue.

If you do wait on the cpu you need to keep in mind DDR5, which will be going mainstream in about 2 years (it will be here sooner, just high priced, not great performance). If you can wait, you will be able to pick up used DDR4 systems for cheap, otherwise you will be buying DDR4 just before we start the switchover or over spending on DD5.  If you can't buy a new mobo/cpu/ram in the next 8-10 months or so I'd probably consider holding off and seeing how things develop over the next few months.

In other words, do it now, or consider waiting even longer.
If it was me, I'd be looking at new and used 2k series Ryzen.


If you can get a new 1660 ti for the same price as a used 1070 ti, why would anyone ever get the 1660?
Warranty, availability, fear of getting a nearly dead mining card.

Plus, a LOOOOT of 1070 and up owners have not gotten the clue that their prices are way out in left field. I saw someone trying to sell a 1080 for $750 and another selling a 1080 TI for $1200 last night (go see what that gets you on Newegg if you don't know). I blame Nvidia and to a lesser extent AMD for this, it kind of left then high and dry for a market, but at the same time, this is what you get when you buy bleeding edge stuff, especially when the market was completely out of whack when you bought it. I'm sorry you spent $1500-2k on a 1080, but that's not my problem.
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Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #140 on: Tue, 24 December 2019, 07:25:02 »
The SSD is broken into multiple memory chips (on larger ones), you can assign a controller to each chip, each one adding it's own bandwidth in sort of a mini raid. So if a 500 has 2 controllers, a 1tb has 4, doubling the available bandwidth.

If you're doing a truckload of caching and need the writes, look into a small Optane drive, at least some of them are built specifically for it. Though if it was me, I'd either use a normal drive for caching or get more ram.

Thanks. Well, I think I'll grab a 1TB drive just for that gain, having seen some of the benchmarks. No overkill like 2TB, but 1TB yes.

I'm also almost regretting the purchase of the i3-8350K, but it was so cheap I'm almost certain to make no loss on reselling it, so no big deal really. And more comfort waiting for a good deal on a 9600K or 9700K.

Now getting a bunch of Noctua fans for the CPU and the case.

Any opinion on that, incidentally? I'm definitely going to have one fan blowing into the heatsink, and make it a high-static-pressure fan. Not sure about putting either a high-pressure or high-flow fan on the other side — good suction vs good dissipation. The fan on the end side of the CPU cooler will obviously be just a couple of inches away from the case exhaust fan (14cm), and I could get a high-flow one there. Probably high-flow ones for roof exhaust. Just kind of having last-minute doubts about high-flow fans because of the potential performance loss due to exhausting through mesh, where HP fans could prove better in the end/net result.

With the fans I'm not going to be saving money. I'm not really itching to buy like 6 fans for $50 each, but hypersensitivity to sound + working on this thing with low ambient and needing the ability to concentrate puts things in perspective.

A year or so ago I bought two 14 cm 'Silent' Wings 3 for cause intake… ugh. Can't stand them at anywhere above 500 rpm, and they have a hard time avoiding touching each other in the front of my case, after I used them to replace a broken 20cm Phanteks fan, the one I got with my Enthoo case. It's probably going to be the same with the roof — also 2x14 or 1x20.

One more less than spectacularly intelligent thing I did last year, I bought a PSU that stays totally passive unless it gets a really heavy load. It does so like 7–8'' away from the GPU. Sigh.

Are you sure those applications do operations to disk and not in ram ?

Yeah, the work software does.

I'm probably going to focus some attention on the RAM too in the coming weeks. More, faster, or both.
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 December 2019, 07:27:15 by NewbieOneKenobi »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #141 on: Tue, 24 December 2019, 18:18:47 »
I'm also almost regretting the purchase of the i3-8350K, but it was so cheap I'm almost certain to make no loss on reselling it, so no big deal really. And more comfort waiting for a good deal on a 9600K or 9700K.


Now getting a bunch of Noctua fans for the CPU and the case.

Any opinion on that, incidentally? I'm definitely going to have one fan blowing into the heatsink, and make it a high-static-pressure fan. Not sure about putting either a high-pressure or high-flow fan on the other side — good suction vs good dissipation. The fan on the end side of the CPU cooler will obviously be just a couple of inches away from the case exhaust fan (14cm), and I could get a high-flow one there. Probably high-flow ones for roof exhaust. Just kind of having last-minute doubts about high-flow fans because of the potential performance loss due to exhausting through mesh, where HP fans could prove better in the end/net result.

With the fans I'm not going to be saving money. I'm not really itching to buy like 6 fans for $50 each, but hypersensitivity to sound + working on this thing with low ambient and needing the ability to concentrate puts things in perspective.
I don't think it matter too much what fan you use on the back of the heatsink, it's more about assisting the HSP fan on front. I've never gone looking for data, but I don't think it matters too much, couple degrees at most from what I've seen.

My whole take on case fans changed once I went to mini ITX and put it on my desk
On large cases you just need flow. Don't worry too much about how or even so much about how much, just get some in and some out. That may seem over simplified, but really the difference is minimal at best despite people putting so much thought into it. This is where I think people make a mistake, the heat sinks need lots of air flow (Noctuas are good here!) but the case just needs flow in general. Good, larger slow spinning fans are already quiet and do the job fine, except in those critical spots. So long as you are getting flow with no hot spots you will get diminishing returns from then on. On a bigger box, occupy all the slots with something, tune your fan curves and it will probably be fine. Blah Blah Blah 3 degrees... does it really matter? If 1 or two degrees separate you from stable and not, you're not stable.

On mini ITX cases this does NOT apply. Don't try and fudge your way through even if your plan is to stuff a bunch of Noctuas, start with what others have already done. Ignore this at your own peril. Seriously, some of these boxes are critical in how air flows. Installing a fan a certain way can actually raise temps dramatically, even dangerously.


Speaking of quiet...
When you get quiet/slow enough, the bearing type matters more than the fan itself (you want fluid dynamic bearings).
(From an old post)
Quote
At 700 rpm I could hear the fan ball bearings and air flow over the fan blades
At 600 rpm I could mostly only hear the air flow over the fan blades
At 500 rpm I could hear sleeve bearing noise
At 450 rpm I could hear the air flow turbulence over the case edges/fan grill and only just hear the sleeve bearings if you listened.
In all cases I could hear if there was an imbalanced blade and some fans simply wouldn't spin down below 500 or even 600rpm. At this point some would start pulsing the motor which has a really annoying drum/drone effect. If they ran at all.

And this goes with what I said above about large cases,
Stop being super concerned with temps, you don't need to stay under 60C, these parts are designed to last years at max temp. Do you honestly care if your CPU lasts 12 or 15 years as opposed to 20? This was difficult for me to adjust to after years of spending tons to stay under 55 or 60c while silent and when all temp monitors act like 60 is the devil, but really there's no sense in that. These days my fans never go more than 30% or 40% unless the system exceeds 60C. Yes, the system breaks 70c on occasion and sometimes gets close to 80c... But it's well within limits, it's silent and will more than outlast how long I or even the next owner expect to keep it and by then it will be so far outdated it won't matter.

Learn to trade some longevity for silence.
It's hard to look up and see 72c on the CPU or GPU and not get concerned, but that's really a walk in the park for them and nothing to be concerned with.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #142 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 04:52:23 »
Agreed about silence > a few C max temps benching.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #143 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 12:02:40 »
Agreed about silence > a few C max temps benching.

2080 Ti , Max overclock, Max Fanspeed.

Put in adjoining room, snake industrial Displayport cable through wall.

Quiet + FTW Graphix.




That or Bolt mod CPU heatsink to GPU, easily dissipate 200Watt+ @ minimal noise vs GPU standard sinks.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #144 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 12:14:36 »
Agreed about silence > a few C max temps benching.

2080 Ti , Max overclock, Max Fanspeed.

Put in adjoining room, snake industrial Displayport cable through wall.

Quiet + FTW Graphix.


Show Image


That or Bolt mod CPU heatsink to GPU, easily dissipate 200Watt+ @ minimal noise vs GPU standard sinks.


bro you actually can afford that?

Offline NewbieOneKenobi

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #145 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 14:56:41 »
On large cases you just need flow. Don't worry too much about how or even so much about how much, just get some in and some out.

Large case (between mid and big tower) but poor placement I can't really help — the PC is under my desk in the corner of the room. It's not a real tragedy, but I've never had spectacular flows.

Quote
Speaking of quiet...
When you get quiet/slow enough, the bearing type matters more than the fan itself (you want fluid dynamic bearings).
(From an old post)
At 700 rpm I could hear the fan ball bearings and air flow over the fan blades
At 600 rpm I could mostly only hear the air flow over the fan blades
At 500 rpm I could hear sleeve bearing noise
At 450 rpm I could hear the air flow turbulence over the case edges/fan grill and only just hear the sleeve bearings if you listened.
In all cases I could hear if there was an imbalanced blade and some fans simply wouldn't spin down below 500 or even 600rpm. At this point some would start pulsing the motor which has a really annoying drum/drone effect. If they ran at all.

Yeah. During the day I don't really mind the flow sound as much as the bearing sound, and different bearings sound different. When there are other environmental sounds and some general ambient, discernible but civilized sounds coming from underneath the desk don't really matter so much. At night, though, or during very quiet hours I prefer to keep the PC dead silent so I can focus better. This is not normally difficult to achieve as long as the GPU is capable of passive mode and the bearing on the CPU fan isn't broken. What's a bit more challenging is playing certain games I prefer to play without sound. And, of course, I don't want the the fans to outscream my games under heavy loads. I would normally be somewhat reluctant to spend too much money on getting my ideal gaming conditions, but work is a different matter. Water would be overkill, but good air is not something I'm going to skimp much on.

Quote
Stop being super concerned with temps, you don't need to stay under 60C, these parts are designed to last years at max temp.

Yeah, I just don't want to get throttled under big loads or have to interrupt my long gaming sessions. Due to how freelancing works, I sometimes end up playing for like 12–16 hours straight in between jobs — which is when I switch to working for like 12–16 hours stright. ;)

Quote
Do you honestly care if your CPU lasts 12 or 15 years as opposed to 20?

I need 5 years max. I don't care about longevity. I also don't really mind the CPU dying on me after the 2nd or 3rd year unless replacements are expensive.

Quote
This was difficult for me to adjust to after years of spending tons to stay under 55 or 60c while silent and when all temp monitors act like 60 is the devil, but really there's no sense in that. These days my fans never go more than 30% or 40% unless the system exceeds 60C.

Right now: CPU 32C, mobo 36C, CPU fan 460 rpm (up to 600 is inaudible anyway, possibly 800, and 1000 will still be drowned out by any other fan that can be heard), front intakes are 580 and 610 (both same model but need different settings), and that's probably it. This is always sufficient for work, and for games it depends. Latest AAA titles could probably make this box loud.

Quote
Yes, the system breaks 70c on occasion and sometimes gets close to 80c... But it's well within limits, it's silent and will more than outlast how long I or even the next owner expect to keep it and by then it will be so far outdated it won't matter.

At this point in my life, obviously I want the power from the hardware, but the no. 1 consideration with temps is the ability to maintain absolute silence for work and as much silence as possible in gaming.

Quote
Learn to trade some longevity for silence.

Yup. Both longevity and even speed, though I'd like to keep speed compromises to a minimum.

I'll probably end up swapping the the 8350K for a 9600K some time soon, if the overclock ends up causing too high temps in the case, resulting in GPU fans (3x80/90mm) spinning too fast too early. Normally, though, I'd just keep my eye out for good 8700k/9700k deals.

Agreed about silence > a few C max temps benching.

Benching is just benching. ;) Bench, post, brag, get the aaahs, then bump it a couple notches down and enjoy the silence gain.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #146 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 16:29:52 »
I would normally be somewhat reluctant to spend too much money on getting my ideal gaming conditions, but work is a different matter. Water would be overkill, but good air is not something I'm going to skimp much on.
One thing edited out while doing that was the fans I use, I meant to tell you, you don't need Noctuas, especially if it stays under your desk.

Arctic(?) makes some nearly as quiet for half the price with similar flow, but so long as you don't need max flow, don't be scared to look at others. Noise, bearing and rpm are related, almost any slow spinning fan with the right bearing will be darn quiet no matter who makes it. If you can punch out your case for bigger fans, do that first as bigger flows a lot more for less rpm.

On my case pretty much everyone uses Noctuas and while I use them on the cpu and rear fan, I actually have a pair of really cheap Rosewill 140mm Fluid Dynamic Bearing fans in bottom, they cost 1/4 what Noctuas do. So long as I keep them turned down they are just as quiet, which means a loss of flow so I upsized to 140mm to compensate (they barely fit, had to shave 1/2mm on two tabs).  Basically same air and noise as Noctua 120's for 1/4 the price. The rear fan on mine is a Noctua, mostly because the Zalman 92mm I had wouldn't spin down enough even with slow speed adapters. I needed some flow here to keep the GPU heat from saturating the mobo and psu, but but anything more than just movement was creating a lot of noise due to obstructions.


Contrary to popular belief water isn't any more quiet than air.
You have the added pump noise and heat and most of the time people add a second or even third fan. Not only are these fans not deep inside where the sound is muffled, they are high pressure fans beating air against a lot of corners. Most AIO owners would have been better off just buying a high end air cooler, but most see a high end air cooler and think for just a little more they could get a water cooler.
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Offline absyrd

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #147 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 17:42:06 »
Pump plus resistance from rad is SO much louder than a quiet air setup, IME.
My wife I a also push her button . But now she have her button push by a different men. So I buy a keyboard a mechanicale, she a reliable like a Fiat.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #148 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 17:55:13 »

Being on DDR3 your upgrade path is a lot more limited than if you were already on DDR4 or even an older 2nd gen, which brings up another issue.

If you do wait on the cpu you need to keep in mind DDR5, which will be going mainstream in about 2 years


Is there a particular build/socket/chip set that might put me at a lower but viable sweet spot - as somebody whose primary "demanding" tasks are decent quality sub-professional-level audio and video editing?

   
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: How do you decide when it's time to build a new PC vs incrementally upgrading?
« Reply #149 on: Wed, 25 December 2019, 20:47:49 »
Most AIO owners would have been better off just buying a high end air cooler, but most see a high end air cooler and think for just a little more they could get a water cooler.

Air coolers don't have pump whine, so for quietness at the low end it's definitely more quiet.

But AIO still gets better peak cooling.