Author Topic: Not a single manufacturer has yet nulified the need for o-rings or similar mods?  (Read 797 times)

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Offline MaximilianKohler

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I posted this 6 years ago https://archive.vn/JXiW5 and still no one has created a low travel distance keyboard despite there being tons of manufacturers, including many with a sole focus on gaming keyboards. This is ridiculous.

Reducing travel distance from 2mm to 1.5mm seems to be the best anyone's been able to do in the past 5 years. Not good enough. The travel distance after the key's been pressed needs to be removed in order for key presses to have optimal accuracy for gaming. Whether it's 2mm or 1.5mm it's still too much.

Recent discussion where some manufacturers have reduced the actuation distance to ~1mm, but the total travel distance is still far. https://archive.vn/XGa6E - trampoline mod, and jailhouse blues mod are mentioned, but these are even more extreme than o-rings. A manufacturer needs to make a keyboard that nullifies the need for these mods.
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Offline Riverman

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If you want a keyboard with such a short travel distance, mechanical keyboards seem like they'd be the exact opposite of what you're looking for.  Quite a few of us, if not most of us, use them just because they have such a long stroke, and wouldn't that reduced.  A scissor switch keyboard would be more in line with what you're looking for.

Offline Findecanor

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That's just, like ... your opinion, man!

And part of the reason is that you have fallen for the idea that linear switches would be "for gaming".
With proper tactile switches, travel after actuation has little bearing on accuracy. It is the tactile event that matters.
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Offline fohat.digs

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I don't game, but I got several keyboards for my son during his teenage years. He has settled on a Cherry black TKL Filco with fairly fat soft O-rings as the preferred gaming configuration.

Just somebody's 2 cents' worth.
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Offline Polymer

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That's just, like ... your opinion, man!

And part of the reason is that you have fallen for the idea that linear switches would be "for gaming".
With proper tactile switches, travel after actuation has little bearing on accuracy. It is the tactile event that matters.

Neither does tactility...

You're not more accurate as a result....

It is all very subjective based on personal preference, what feels comfortable, what your mind actually responds to (which may be different than what you like). 

If the pros were all using o-rings to shorten travel, you'd think someone would come out with a prototype switch like that..but it doesn't seem like that's the case...You're not seeing pros go to really short travel either for the most part..so there must be something to that. 


Offline Leslieann

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I posted this 6 years ago https://archive.vn/JXiW5 and still no one has created a low travel distance keyboard despite there being tons of manufacturers, including many with a sole focus on gaming keyboards. This is ridiculous.

Reducing travel distance from 2mm to 1.5mm seems to be the best anyone's been able to do in the past 5 years. Not good enough. The travel distance after the key's been pressed needs to be removed in order for key presses to have optimal accuracy for gaming. Whether it's 2mm or 1.5mm it's still too much.

Recent discussion where some manufacturers have reduced the actuation distance to ~1mm, but the total travel distance is still far. https://archive.vn/XGa6E - trampoline mod, and jailhouse blues mod are mentioned, but these are even more extreme than o-rings. A manufacturer needs to make a keyboard that nullifies the need for these mods.

If you want activation at the very bottom you may as well type on rubber domes or glass because that's what you're asking for.  You actually want some travel and some dampening after to reduce impact and save your joints.

Ultra short travel is actually not good, one of the complaints against the newer Apple Macbook Pro keyboards is precisely that they had shortened the travel too far.

Jailhouse Blues don't shorten the overall travel, they only shorten the actuation point which is moved up, though how much depends on your method. J-spacers and o-ring methods start ramping immediately and actuate at about 1.1mm (similar to speed switches) while the wired method tends to ramp at 0.4 or 0.5 and actuate at around 1.5mm. Speed switches feel a bit like scissor switches which was kind of my intent and possibly where the idea for speed switches came from, but after using both methods I find I like a little pre-travel, just not as much as a normal switch.
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Offline MaximilianKohler

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That's just, like ... your opinion, man!

And part of the reason is that you have fallen for the idea that linear switches would be "for gaming".
With proper tactile switches, travel after actuation has little bearing on accuracy. It is the tactile event that matters.

I have a brown switch mech. You're not understanding the need for less travel distance. The problem is not knowing when the key actuates, but the fact that it keeps moving after it does.

I'm not sure how to explain it other than the fact that the key is essentially "floating" is what the problem is. Some games need very precise actions/movements, and a key that continues to move after it's been triggered is less accurate than one that stops moving when it's been actuated.
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Offline Polymer

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That's just, like ... your opinion, man!

And part of the reason is that you have fallen for the idea that linear switches would be "for gaming".
With proper tactile switches, travel after actuation has little bearing on accuracy. It is the tactile event that matters.

I have a brown switch mech. You're not understanding the need for less travel distance. The problem is not knowing when the key actuates, but the fact that it keeps moving after it does.

I'm not sure how to explain it other than the fact that the key is essentially "floating" is what the problem is. Some games need very precise actions/movements, and a key that continues to move after it's been triggered is less accurate than one that stops moving when it's been actuated.

No it isn't....That would suggest shorter travel keyboards will provide more accuracy and thus, pro gamers would certainly prefer that because it would make them a better gamer.

Are we seeing that right now?  Doesn't look like it.   So while this isn't evidence, surely pro gamers aren't using sub optimal equipment when other alternatives are there.  Shouldn't we see scissor switches more then?  It doesn't have to be a traditional mech switch. 

Can I ask you something though?  What is it you dislike about o-rings?  Given that each person would want a certain feel and travel...they can tailor their keyboard for the feel and travel they want with different o-rings/keycaps to get them the right feel for them....a switch built the way you're describing doesn't leave them with that option or leaves less room for that option. 

Or why don't you design a switch that is like an MX Silent..but with bigger rubber bits on the end to limit travel...that will probably do exactly what you're proposing....

Offline envyy24

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Switch to some butterfly-scissor-whatever it is call - Apple keyboard dude ->problem solved.

Offline MaximilianKohler

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I addressed the inadequacy of o-rings in the link I shared in the OP: https://archive.vn/JXiW5

Lack of NKRO in other keyboards is what forced me to use a mech in the first place. I saw one non-mech Razer keyboard that claimed to have NKRO, but some reviews said it didn't work well.
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Offline envyy24

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I addressed the inadequacy of o-rings in the link I shared in the OP: https://archive.vn/JXiW5

Lack of NKRO in other keyboards is what forced me to use a mech in the first place. I saw one non-mech Razer keyboard that claimed to have NKRO, but some reviews said it didn't work well.

Alright. So how about this one then:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32851473382.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.21a62e89HeTXmK

It used the kailh low choc switch. And since the switch is a low profile one, obviously the travel distance is short. I think you could give this a try then.

Edit: wait this one seems to use bluetooth though, so dont think that it would be good for gaming. But I remember that some gaming brands release low profile switch keyboard recently. Im too lazy to search for that. But that is a lead :D
« Last Edit: Tue, 24 March 2020, 09:36:17 by envyy24 »

Offline Polymer

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I addressed the inadequacy of o-rings in the link I shared in the OP: https://archive.vn/JXiW5

Lack of NKRO in other keyboards is what forced me to use a mech in the first place. I saw one non-mech Razer keyboard that claimed to have NKRO, but some reviews said it didn't work well.

Have you thought that maybe what you see as a problem isn't a problem?

You've already made the accuracy claim (which is false). 

Or maybe you're just way ahead of your time...that sounds like a business opportunity.

Offline Findecanor

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But I remember that some gaming brands release low profile switch keyboard recently.
Maybe you were thinking of the Logitech G815 (USB) and G915 (wireless).Those have Kailh Choc switches, just branded "Logitech GL".

The Sharkoon Purewriter RGB also has Kailh switches and is considerably less expensive, and I'm sure it isn't the only other one out there.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Isn't there a silent cherry with the little rubber nubs on the inside slider ? or was that something else.

Offline Riverman

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There are two silent Cherry switches, red and black, but travel is just barely reduced from 4mm to 3.7mm.

Offline Polymer

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Isn't there a silent cherry with the little rubber nubs on the inside slider ? or was that something else.

Yes...I'm saying they could make the nubs bigger and reduce travel more....Or the OP could have someone design that....Not sure if that would work easily or not...

Offline Sintpinty

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I don't game, but I got several keyboards for my son during his teenage years. He has settled on a Cherry black TKL Filco with fairly fat soft O-rings as the preferred gaming configuration.

Just somebody's 2 cents' worth.

I just need one but the mx reds don't feel right at all with dsas. They are springy and make a metallic ping

can't return them now might get a secondary mx brown

Offline MaximilianKohler

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Alright. So how about this one then:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32851473382.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.21a62e89HeTXmK

It used the kailh low choc switch. And since the switch is a low profile one, obviously the travel distance is short. I think you could give this a try then.

Edit: wait this one seems to use bluetooth though, so dont think that it would be good for gaming. But I remember that some gaming brands release low profile switch keyboard recently. Im too lazy to search for that. But that is a lead :D
Yeah I saw the bluetooth thing too and thought too bad, but it has a wired option too, so actually a decent option possibly. Problem is it doesn't mention what the travel distance is and it doesn't mention NKRO. I would prefer a keyboard with the numpad.

The Logitech G815 mentioned in another comment is the type I was referring to as "lowest I've seen is 3mm", which is only 1mm less than regular, so not that much. And if the RK929 uses the same switches then presumably it would have the same 3mm travel distance?

If one of these manufacturers just lowers the post-actuation travel distance to under 0.5mm that should do it. It shouldn't be difficult.

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Offline Polymer

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I just watched your review of a mech keyboard..

So I know why you don't like them..but that's your failing, not the keyboard itself.

The reality is, you're used to something, and this is not that.  Unfortunately for you, that's just your opinion..which just so happens doesn't correspond to what other pros want. 

Go with what you like using...this is like trying to crowbar a solution into something you'll like..just use a different solution or figure out how to modify what is available to fit your preference. 

Offline Leslieann

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The problem is not knowing when the key actuates, but the fact that it keeps moving after it does.
You are asking for it to activate and bottom out at the same time.


There's no way to accomplish this and not beat up your joints or feel inconsistent. Your fingers either slams into a hard stop or gets progressively harder and you have no idea when it gets activated. Long term use of the hard stop will result in joint damage and arthritis. The second way ends up feeling mushy as it would need to get progressively harder before coming to a stop and activating. No matter how you increase the rate, you end up hitting a hard stop or unsure where the bottom is, leaving you pressing it hard trying to make sure it activates.
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Offline tp4tissue

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The travel is what makes the button FEEL LIKE a button.

Without the travel, it'll feel like typing on a crummy macbook keyboards.

Offline MaximilianKohler

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I don't think the last few comments are accurate, and the claim that low travel distance causes arthritis needs a citation.

Arthritis is an autoimmune disease linked to gut dysbiosis: http://HumanMicrobiome.info/Intro#Inflammation--arthritis

Many people use o-rings and other mods to lower the travel distance. There are tons of options for people who want lots of travel distance, so there's no rational reason for people to be against a manufacturer making such a keyboard as I have described.
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Offline Polymer

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Many people use o-rings and other mods to lower the travel distance. There are tons of options for people who want lots of travel distance, so there's no rational reason for people to be against a manufacturer making such a keyboard as I have described.

Other than there isn't the demand for them...I don't think anyone is against anything, as in, consumers aren't saying NO DON'T OFFER THIS OPTION.  But what is happening is, not enough consumers are demanding this type of solution.  If there were enough pros modifying their switches to do this and they were working with their sponsors to create a BETTER solution, they'd be doing it.  They'd generate demand through the overwhelming support they'd have from pros that are going this way.   Is it you don't understand that part?  Or you have a hard time understanding why no one has the preference you have?  It is entirely possible you're just way ahead of your time...