Author Topic: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?  (Read 1858 times)

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Offline zxnlee00

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Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« on: Wed, 22 July 2020, 23:01:45 »
I got an Anne Pro 2 like 2 months ago. I wanted to lube them but I was new to modding switches and did not know how to desolder. I saw a video on youtube on lubing switches without desoldering (pushing down the switch and brushing lube on the sides of the switch). They sounded and felt great for like a few weeks, but recently they feel scratchy and sound scratchy. I was wondering if I did something wrong that resulted in this? When I wobble the keycaps there is also this sound (not sure how to describe it but sounds bad). And the thing is almost every single key suffer from this problem, with some sounding worse.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 July 2020, 23:04:04 by zxnlee00 »

Offline yui

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 00:50:36 »
from my very limited experience it does not sound like you actually did something wrong, but maybe rather that there was not enough lube and it ran out? as you got used to their lubed state now you find them extra scratchy. i would try thicker lube so that it stays in place better maybe or maybe i am wrong.
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Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 03:50:36 »
Can I enquire as to what switches they were and which lube you used? :)
     
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Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 04:44:01 »
Could too much misapplied lube somehow mess up the action of the contact leaf?

I've seen those YouTube videos of lubing an intact switch, and they look like it would be easy to introduce way too much lube.

I was thinking maybe brushing lube in from the outside could also introduce grit, but a 2 month old board should be clean.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:44:13 »
The reality is, the majority of mechanical switches are NOT designed to work with lube, so what happens is the lube just rolls off and collect at the bottom of the switch after a while.

Only lubes like Tungsten Disulfide which adheres at a microscopic level can truly stay long term.  Most other lubes, after heavy use will just roll off.

/Tungsten Dilsulfide is conductive,  not for Novice users,  Can not be applied from the outside..

Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:52:19 »
Can I enquire as to what switches they were and which lube you used? :)

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Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:55:32 »
Could too much misapplied lube somehow mess up the action of the contact leaf?

I've seen those YouTube videos of lubing an intact switch, and they look like it would be easy to introduce way too much lube.

I was thinking maybe brushing lube in from the outside could also introduce grit, but a 2 month old board should be clean.

Actually now that you mention it, I think it might have something to do with the contact leaf too. Its like a springy and creaking noise and could be the spring, but I might have damaged the contact leaf too  :-X. Is the contact leaf a component that affects the sound a lot?
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:15:21 by zxnlee00 »

Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:56:59 »
The reality is, the majority of mechanical switches are NOT designed to work with lube, so what happens is the lube just rolls off and collect at the bottom of the switch after a while.

Only lubes like Tungsten Disulfide which adheres at a microscopic level can truly stay long term.  Most other lubes, after heavy use will just roll off.

/Tungsten Dilsulfide is conductive,  not for Novice users,  Can not be applied from the outside..


But does this cause the switch to become really scratchy?  And even if so I think its a little too fast   :confused:

Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 07:58:18 »
from my very limited experience it does not sound like you actually did something wrong, but maybe rather that there was not enough lube and it ran out? as you got used to their lubed state now you find them extra scratchy. i would try thicker lube so that it stays in place better maybe or maybe i am wrong.

I think I might have applied too much in fact, it's possible that I'm used to it as well, but the noise is quite obvious when I'm typing on the keyboard.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:19:13 »
But does this cause the switch to become really scratchy?  And even if so I think its a little too fast   :confused:

It shouldn't be scratchier than before you lubed it.   

If that happens, it's possible the lube you used has a solvent in it which reacts with the switch plastic or corrodes the leaf spring's metal.

Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 08:26:54 »
Applying too much should only result in the mechanism becoming sluggish, not scratchy.

Scratchy is only going to happen if there is something now wrong with the metal leaf, or if gunk was introduced from outside the switch. Caveat, I'm not experienced with troubleshooting switches.

I don't suppose you can take one out and pull it apart to figure out what the problem is?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 09:01:20 »
My best guess is the lube ran down the legs onto the contacts and picked up dirt along the way.
Lubing this way is a good way to introduce dirt and it's also difficult to not use to much as it will almost suck it down in through capillary action.

If it gets on the metal contact in the right spots I would imagine it could cause a scratchy sound and feel.
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Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 09:13:04 »
Applying too much should only result in the mechanism becoming sluggish, not scratchy.

Scratchy is only going to happen if there is something now wrong with the metal leaf, or if gunk was introduced from outside the switch. Caveat, I'm not experienced with troubleshooting switches.

I don't suppose you can take one out and pull it apart to figure out what the problem is?
Nope, I don't know how to desolder and solder it back xD. I don't think it is gunk, more likely to be the metal leaf.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 09:16:34 »
It takes next to nothing to cause what you are hearing, microscopic dust can cause it.
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Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 09:20:04 »
My best guess is the lube ran down the legs onto the contacts and picked up dirt along the way.
Lubing this way is a good way to introduce dirt and it's also difficult to not use to much as it will almost suck it down in through capillary action.

If it gets on the metal contact in the right spots I would imagine it could cause a scratchy sound and feel.

I see, that's new to me. Maybe next time I should just get a hotswap so I can lube it properly and can replace the switch if something like this occurs again. :thumb:

Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 09:33:59 »
I'd also suggest being much more wary of believing too easy to be true tutorials on YouTube ;)


Offline zxnlee00

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 10:41:20 »
I'd also suggest being much more wary of believing too easy to be true tutorials on YouTube ;)
Yea xD, lesson learnt  ;D

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 17:26:27 »
One thing that's always been in the back of my mind when I have completely disregarded the notion of lubing switches is how much oils attract dirt in firearms. If a firearm is going to get really dirty/grimy, people often run them entirely dry without lubricants, to prevent malfunction. Those are usually easy enough to field strip and clean ... not so much with a switch and plate combination that can't be opened without desoldering. If I were to lube any switches, it would be a dry lubricant. I may never bother.

Gateron reds feel pretty nice right out of the gate, but I'm no linear enthusiast.

Offline -Jerry-

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 17:45:11 »
Likewise, one of the things I like about Kailh Box Heavies is that they’re plenty smooth as they are and there’s no real benefit in lubing.

That said, I’m getting some Holy Pandas for my KBD8X build, and it may be worth lubing them, we’ll see.
     
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 21:30:09 »
One thing that's always been in the back of my mind when I have completely disregarded the notion of lubing switches is how much oils attract dirt in firearms. If a firearm is going to get really dirty/grimy, people often run them entirely dry without lubricants, to prevent malfunction. Those are usually easy enough to field strip and clean ... not so much with a switch and plate combination that can't be opened without desoldering. If I were to lube any switches, it would be a dry lubricant. I may never bother.
Guns have explosions from dirty gunpowder going off in them.
Keycaps are relatively decently sealed and then you have a keycap over the top to further prevent intrusion. Properly lubed they should last a VERY long time, you just can't take shortcuts. While I agree, dry film is awesome, it's not a good long lasting lube. We use them on bike chains and you are always lubing them.

As for lube vs not lube, it depends very much on the switch.
You can generally take it or leave it on Gaterons and Cherry, they work decent out of the box.
Zeal V2, great out of the box.
Box Jades, very little difference, however I did not lube the click bar or plunger, which they desperately need.
Kailh Pro Purple were unusable for me without lube, the bind was so bad my fingers and joints hurt after less than an hour. After lube, really nice switches, coming darn close to Zeal.
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Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 22:18:14 »
I lubed my Ergo Clears 5 years ago, none of the switches developed any issues from picking up grit. I'm sure the lube wore off years ago, but they still feel smoother than when they were unlubed (they were slightly but noticeably scratchy when they were Clears).

Similarly, the Outemu Silent Skies that I got in a week ago are now noticeably smoother with lube.

But no way would I ever desolder switches just to lube them, and no way would I ever follow that YouTube-recommended method of lubing switches without disassembly. Having done it properly and becoming aware of how little lube should be used, dousing the switch with lube looks like a bad idea.

I'm not sure if the OP's board is recoverable without switch replacement. I was thinking that maybe submerging the entire board in solvent then trying to clean out the switches might work, but firstly it's very drastic, secondly I am not sure if solvents are going to be great for plastics, and thirdly I don't even know if normal solvents will work with PTFE style lubricants.

@Leslieann on the subject of chain lubes, I would recommend trying Boeshield T9 if you've not already done so. It seems part dry part wet, longer lasting than films and picks up very little gunk after it dries overnight- it's much cleaner than oil. Also handles wet conditions fairly well instead of just being washed out.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 July 2020, 22:21:09 by jamster »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 23:01:25 »
@Leslieann on the subject of chain lubes, I would recommend trying Boeshield T9 if you've not already done so. It seems part dry part wet, longer lasting than films and picks up very little gunk after it dries overnight- it's much cleaner than oil. Also handles wet conditions fairly well instead of just being washed out.

If you do it the proper way the films can last a long time, but that means cleaning then boiling them in the wax (this is how they come factory) but unless you're a pro odds are that''s impractical. Easier to just throw some on every few weeks (days if you ride a lot), it's not as good but it works and doesn't collect dirt.

I'll look into that one.
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Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 23 July 2020, 23:06:49 »
@Leslieann on the subject of chain lubes, I would recommend trying Boeshield T9 if you've not already done so. It seems part dry part wet, longer lasting than films and picks up very little gunk after it dries overnight- it's much cleaner than oil. Also handles wet conditions fairly well instead of just being washed out.

If you do it the proper way the films can last a long time, but that means cleaning then boiling them in the wax (this is how they come factory) but unless you're a pro odds are that''s impractical. Easier to just throw some on every few weeks (days if you ride a lot), it's not as good but it works and doesn't collect dirt.

I'll look into that one.

Not sure what SRAM uses, but the last time I bought a Shimano chain, the sticky gunk it was coated in certainly wasn't wax. I ended up wiping it down, then riding with it a while, then stripping it out when it started leaving black stuff everywhere.

Boeshield is basically just parafin wax suspended in a solvent (according to the manufacturer). Ideally uses the standard "one drop per link and let it dry evaporate overnight" method.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 06:00:57 »
Boeshield is basically just parafin wax suspended in a solvent (according to the manufacturer). Ideally uses the standard "one drop per link and let it dry evaporate overnight" method.
SRAM uses boiled parafin(?) wax, I always love taking those out of the box, so nice.
Not sure about Shimano
Parafin wax with xylene (which dries really fast) is what the old White Lightening used to be. Went through a TON of it.

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Offline jamster

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 10:25:39 »
Boeshield lasts longer than what I recall of White Lightning. Gets a bit dirtier, goes on way easier.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 14:42:08 »
One thing that's always been in the back of my mind when I have completely disregarded the notion of lubing switches is how much oils attract dirt in firearms. If a firearm is going to get really dirty/grimy, people often run them entirely dry without lubricants, to prevent malfunction. Those are usually easy enough to field strip and clean ... not so much with a switch and plate combination that can't be opened without desoldering. If I were to lube any switches, it would be a dry lubricant. I may never bother.
Guns have explosions from dirty gunpowder going off in them.
Keycaps are relatively decently sealed and then you have a keycap over the top to further prevent intrusion. Properly lubed they should last a VERY long time, you just can't take shortcuts. While I agree, dry film is awesome, it's not a good long lasting lube. We use them on bike chains and you are always lubing them.

Yes, of course, but plenty of gunk other than powder residue can build up in places it would have a hard time getting to from the chamber. I have purchased lots of old surplus rifles and handguns and I have been dumbfounded to find all of the tiny crevices that dust, dirt, and grime can build up in over time if there's oil there upon doing what's likely the first detail strip in a decade ... or much longer. If I can't open the switch relatively easily, personally, I would just rather not even bother for what's often a barely perceptible difference in smoothness. I also usually don't care about much other than clickies either, so I do think it makes more sense for people who prefer linears and/or tactiles to care more about this.

As for lube vs not lube, it depends very much on the switch.
You can generally take it or leave it on Gaterons and Cherry, they work decent out of the box.
Zeal V2, great out of the box.
Box Jades, very little difference, however I did not lube the click bar or plunger, which they desperately need.
Kailh Pro Purple were unusable for me without lube, the bind was so bad my fingers and joints hurt after less than an hour. After lube, really nice switches, coming darn close to Zeal.

Some stock Cherry switches feel pretty gritty to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jades are wonderful from the factory. I could almost justify trying to lubricate box switches because of their water and dust resistance rating. I know I have plenty of loose ones lying around still. Couldn't lubricant on the click bar maybe lessen/mute tactility and/or noise? The best part of them is how snappy the tactile event is. What lubricant would you say would be best for box switches?

I do wonder if I should ever try my usual for firearms and see how ATF works, lol. I know it basically never gums up over time without dirt, but may be too thin. It is also cheap as hell.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 24 July 2020, 20:42:57 »
If I can't open the switch relatively easily, personally, I would just rather not even bother for what's often a barely perceptible difference in smoothness. I also usually don't care about much other than clickies either, so I do think it makes more sense for people who prefer linears and/or tactiles to care more about this.

For the most part a switch should be usable out of the box and if so, yeah, don't kill yourself to lube it.

On the other hand, that was what really annoyed me about the purple pros, they were unusable for me, luckily I was trying them on a hot swap, had I soldered them into a board I would have been raging (seriously, f-u Kailh, this was unacceptable). That said, they went from probably the worst mechanical I've ever used to one of the best tactiles I've ever used.


Some stock Cherry switches feel pretty gritty to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jades are wonderful from the factory. I could almost justify trying to lubricate box switches because of their water and dust resistance rating. I know I have plenty of loose ones lying around still. Couldn't lubricant on the click bar maybe lessen/mute tactility and/or noise? The best part of them is how snappy the tactile event is. What lubricant would you say would be best for box switches?

I do wonder if I should ever try my usual for firearms and see how ATF works, lol. I know it basically never gums up over time without dirt, but may be too thin. It is also cheap as hell.
Cherry had a bad era, newer are supposedly better now but I haven't tried them.

Jades, ugh, I REALLY REALLY wanted to love them, they feel really close to hand wired Jailhouse Blues. Unfortunately that stiction and spring pressure just kills me. They also can't use normal springs, they use a smaller outer diameter so you're stuck. Don't lube the clickbar, I've heard you should lube the plunger face, I also do not agree with that AT ALL. I haven't tried either but I wouldn't be surprised if it strips the tactile feel just like when you lube tactiles. The one spot you should lube is the plunger, but NOT the ends, and not only is that difficult, it's already lubed.

Don't use gun oil or ATF on your switches, they are petroleum based and will melt most plastics.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 27 July 2020, 17:58:44 »
If I can't open the switch relatively easily, personally, I would just rather not even bother for what's often a barely perceptible difference in smoothness. I also usually don't care about much other than clickies either, so I do think it makes more sense for people who prefer linears and/or tactiles to care more about this.

For the most part a switch should be usable out of the box and if so, yeah, don't kill yourself to lube it.

On the other hand, that was what really annoyed me about the purple pros, they were unusable for me, luckily I was trying them on a hot swap, had I soldered them into a board I would have been raging (seriously, f-u Kailh, this was unacceptable). That said, they went from probably the worst mechanical I've ever used to one of the best tactiles I've ever used.

I don't think that any of Kailh's somewhat traditional MX clones feel all that great out of the box. Gateron seems to destroy them in that category from what I have been able to tell.

Some stock Cherry switches feel pretty gritty to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jades are wonderful from the factory. I could almost justify trying to lubricate box switches because of their water and dust resistance rating. I know I have plenty of loose ones lying around still. Couldn't lubricant on the click bar maybe lessen/mute tactility and/or noise? The best part of them is how snappy the tactile event is. What lubricant would you say would be best for box switches?

I do wonder if I should ever try my usual for firearms and see how ATF works, lol. I know it basically never gums up over time without dirt, but may be too thin. It is also cheap as hell.
Cherry had a bad era, newer are supposedly better now but I haven't tried them.

Jades, ugh, I REALLY REALLY wanted to love them, they feel really close to hand wired Jailhouse Blues. Unfortunately that stiction and spring pressure just kills me. They also can't use normal springs, they use a smaller outer diameter so you're stuck. Don't lube the clickbar, I've heard you should lube the plunger face, I also do not agree with that AT ALL. I haven't tried either but I wouldn't be surprised if it strips the tactile feel just like when you lube tactiles. The one spot you should lube is the plunger, but NOT the ends, and not only is that difficult, it's already lubed.

Don't use gun oil or ATF on your switches, they are petroleum based and will melt most plastics.

I don't know how old the switches in it are, but my switch tester is only a few months old. All variants of MX blacks on it (mostly just RGB vs through-hole I think) feel like there's dirt inside, just like at least some switches on any MX black board I have ever felt. All variants of MX browns on it feel like somebody buried them on a beach for a month and dug them back out, just like my only MX brown board from maybe 5-10 years ago.

I should try that whole jailhouse blue thing, especially if you find jades to be similar. It is one of the few truly unique-sounding modifications. I don't know what else I would do with all of my discarded MX blue switches anyway.

ATF is actually used by automotive detailers to restore dried-out plastics on cars. I haven't encountered a single plastic that it has damaged, not that there aren't any that it might. It is also nice for trying to moisturize old dried out rubber too. Gun oils are heavily used in a market that is increasingly being overrun with polymer. Polymer furniture, polymer receivers, polymer sights, etc. I would be surprised if any of those would hurt common plastics. I don't use them though either. Are there any products that contain purely oils that are known to damage plastics?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 28 July 2020, 02:13:39 »
I should try that whole jailhouse blue thing, especially if you find jades to be similar. It is one of the few truly unique-sounding modifications. I don't know what else I would do with all of my discarded MX blue switches anyway.

ATF is actually used by automotive detailers to restore dried-out plastics on cars. I haven't encountered a single plastic that it has damaged, not that there aren't any that it might. It is also nice for trying to moisturize old dried out rubber too. Gun oils are heavily used in a market that is increasingly being overrun with polymer. Polymer furniture, polymer receivers, polymer sights, etc. I would be surprised if any of those would hurt common plastics. I don't use them though either. Are there any products that contain purely oils that are known to damage plastics?

Jailhousing is kind of pointless today, it was meant for a time when we didn't have 5000 switches to choose from.

Yes, they tell people use it to rehab old engine seals and clean out gunk, diesel works too. It also can just as easily completely destroy an engine. It's a temp fix at best. It may not destroy your switches anytime soon, but it is conductive and if it leaks, what it's going to do to the case and desk?

And to what end?
Why use something inappropriate that you know is inappropriate when we have plenty of cheap alternatives that are meant for the job.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 28 July 2020, 13:02:24 »
I should try that whole jailhouse blue thing, especially if you find jades to be similar. It is one of the few truly unique-sounding modifications. I don't know what else I would do with all of my discarded MX blue switches anyway.

ATF is actually used by automotive detailers to restore dried-out plastics on cars. I haven't encountered a single plastic that it has damaged, not that there aren't any that it might. It is also nice for trying to moisturize old dried out rubber too. Gun oils are heavily used in a market that is increasingly being overrun with polymer. Polymer furniture, polymer receivers, polymer sights, etc. I would be surprised if any of those would hurt common plastics. I don't use them though either. Are there any products that contain purely oils that are known to damage plastics?

Jailhousing is kind of pointless today, it was meant for a time when we didn't have 5000 switches to choose from.

Yes, they tell people use it to rehab old engine seals and clean out gunk, diesel works too. It also can just as easily completely destroy an engine. It's a temp fix at best. It may not destroy your switches anytime soon, but it is conductive and if it leaks, what it's going to do to the case and desk?

And to what end?
Why use something inappropriate that you know is inappropriate when we have plenty of cheap alternatives that are meant for the job.

Well, you make it sound even better than jades, which I consider to be the best modern clicky switch that's MX compatible. Alps, Matias, capacitive buckling spring, etc, were all around then, which I think are better than jades as well.

I'm not talking about engine seals, etc. I'm just talking about plastic trim, and wasn't thinking at all about whatever rubber seals may be present in an engine, just rubber in general. I'm no engine expert, but I wouldn't want excess oil anywhere in that scenario. When plastics get dry and brittle, soaking oil back into them that they've lost over time can restore them to basically new. ATF was never meant as an oil for firearms either, yet it has the perfect properties to act as one of the best ones you can get, maybe the best when it comes to corrosion resistance ... even though it costs a fraction of the price. Then you've got some oils that are supposedly meant for that purpose that are literally just scented vegetable oil, and organic oils polymerize over time, which is why you've got what's basically shellac built up in older firearms.

You probably have a point with conductivity, though I would imagine that if you're putting enough oil on something that it would short out a component of the board ... you're probably doing something horribly wrong. It is a curiosity thing, since a big bottle of ATF costs almost nothing, and I love to see how many markets may just be being duped with supposed targeted applications to get you to buy some tiny vial of snake oil.

If I did lubricate any switches, I definitely wouldn't even be doing that to begin with in a board that I care about anyway.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 28 July 2020, 21:03:56 »
Well, you make it sound even better than jades, which I consider to be the best modern clicky switch that's MX compatible. Alps, Matias, capacitive buckling spring, etc, were all around then, which I think are better than jades as well.
I love hand wired Jailhouse, but it's a TON of work to get it right, Jades are like 95% of the feel for zero work.
As for o-ring and J-spaced Jailhouse, speed switches are probably 99% the same feel.

It's just not worth the effort.
My biggest complaint with Jades is the springs rates, they're way stiffer than my JB's but my JB's are sub 40g activation, they're about as light as you can go on a highly tactile switch and still return. I haven't cut the spring on a Jade yet to try to adjust it, but I already now the outcome will be different due to the circumstances. Hand wired reduces room for the spring so trimming actually decompresses it it somewhat back to normal, on Jades the length is stock so you can't really cut to relieve pressure (you can, just not as much). I was hoping to just buy proper springs, but that;s not possible at this time.

When plastics get dry and brittle, soaking oil back into them that they've lost over time can restore them to basically new.
For a time, it's at best temporary.


ATF was never meant as an oil for firearms either, yet it has the perfect properties to act as one of the best ones you can get, maybe the best when it comes to corrosion resistance ... even though it costs a fraction of the price. Then you've got some oils that are supposedly meant for that purpose that are literally just scented vegetable oil, and organic oils polymerize over time, which is why you've got what's basically shellac built up in older firearms.
ATF is highly flammable, probably the second most flammable thing on a car (worse than motor oil) and this is worse when atomized.
Not sure I'd want to slather that all over my gun and then fire it with gunpowder.

It also has a lot of cleansers and friction additives (it's how the clutches work), none of which is really ideal for the use in guns. It's also some pretty nasty stuff health-wise, particularly when atomized.


It is a curiosity thing, since a big bottle of ATF costs almost nothing, and I love to see how many markets may just be being duped with supposed targeted applications to get you to buy some tiny vial of snake oil.
It's not that you're being duped, it's to keep you from destroying what you put it on.

If you want something cheaper than Krytox for switches there is alternatives, even with nearly identical compounds. Though it's never going to be as cheap as ATF.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 29 July 2020, 13:10:22 »
Well, you make it sound even better than jades, which I consider to be the best modern clicky switch that's MX compatible. Alps, Matias, capacitive buckling spring, etc, were all around then, which I think are better than jades as well.
I love hand wired Jailhouse, but it's a TON of work to get it right, Jades are like 95% of the feel for zero work.
As for o-ring and J-spaced Jailhouse, speed switches are probably 99% the same feel.

It's just not worth the effort.
My biggest complaint with Jades is the springs rates, they're way stiffer than my JB's but my JB's are sub 40g activation, they're about as light as you can go on a highly tactile switch and still return. I haven't cut the spring on a Jade yet to try to adjust it, but I already now the outcome will be different due to the circumstances. Hand wired reduces room for the spring so trimming actually decompresses it it somewhat back to normal, on Jades the length is stock so you can't really cut to relieve pressure (you can, just not as much). I was hoping to just buy proper springs, but that;s not possible at this time.

SPRiT has all of the box switch springs you could ever hope for. I tried some that were supposed to be progressively weighted (I couldn't tell a difference there), etc, but went right back to the stock springs myself. I personally like the weighting, but I also like box navies ... which I'm using now.

When plastics get dry and brittle, soaking oil back into them that they've lost over time can restore them to basically new.
For a time, it's at best temporary.

Just like plastics that are brand new.

ATF was never meant as an oil for firearms either, yet it has the perfect properties to act as one of the best ones you can get, maybe the best when it comes to corrosion resistance ... even though it costs a fraction of the price. Then you've got some oils that are supposedly meant for that purpose that are literally just scented vegetable oil, and organic oils polymerize over time, which is why you've got what's basically shellac built up in older firearms.
ATF is highly flammable, probably the second most flammable thing on a car (worse than motor oil) and this is worse when atomized.
Not sure I'd want to slather that all over my gun and then fire it with gunpowder.

It also has a lot of cleansers and friction additives (it's how the clutches work), none of which is really ideal for the use in guns. It's also some pretty nasty stuff health-wise, particularly when atomized.

Flammability doesn't matter with firearms, even if you were intentionally doing a meltdown or something. If there's enough oil on a surface exposed to air to actually catch fire, there's way too much oil. Wood and plastic stocks are flammable too.

Those cleansers and friction additives must do a great job in the application of firearms. I have done a lot of research and ATF is one of the best options available on the market at all for lubricity and corrosion resistance for firearm lubrication. You're right about it being terrible for your health. I have looked at alternatives, specifically something with very similar properties ... but food grade. Economically buying it means multiple gallons of it last I saw. Eventually I may bite the bullet there. Even that has worse corrosion protection though ... which is one of the most important things to me. I forget the name offhand.

It is a curiosity thing, since a big bottle of ATF costs almost nothing, and I love to see how many markets may just be being duped with supposed targeted applications to get you to buy some tiny vial of snake oil.
It's not that you're being duped, it's to keep you from destroying what you put it on.

If you want something cheaper than Krytox for switches there is alternatives, even with nearly identical compounds. Though it's never going to be as cheap as ATF.

You would know better than I about the keyboard lubricant market, if anything is even actually marketed to/designed for keyboards. A lot of markets are full of almost useless/overpriced snake oil. I'm not sure how you could destroy much of anything as low wear as key switches with the wrong oil of a relatively light viscosity. With grease, or something thicker, there's of course maybe suspended particles scraping up sliders ... like with Alps.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 29 July 2020, 22:36:53 »
SPRiT has all of the box switch springs you could ever hope for. I tried some that were supposed to be progressively weighted (I couldn't tell a difference there), etc, but went right back to the stock springs myself. I personally like the weighting, but I also like box navies ... which I'm using now.
Huh,
I'll have to look, they aren't shipping at the moment and my usual places don't seem to have them. Then again I've ordered springs from 2 places in the last 2 weeks and neither has yet to ship either.

Suppliers, if you say you're shipping, SHIP.



You would know better than I about the keyboard lubricant market, if anything is even actually marketed to/designed for keyboards. A lot of markets are full of almost useless/overpriced snake oil. I'm not sure how you could destroy much of anything as low wear as key switches with the wrong oil of a relatively light viscosity. With grease, or something thicker, there's of course maybe suspended particles scraping up sliders ... like with Alps.
Other than a few exceptions lubricants are rarely designed for a specific application, they are just marketed that way by various brands.

No one is targeting keyboards, it's too small and not competitive in that way, the place you want to look is cycling, motorycles and RC cars, places where plastics and lubricants are used in competition and hobby and people will drop big bucks on lubricants. However, all you really have to do is look at the formulation and viscosity, we have no worry about water, heat, rust or high impact loads.

I use Super Lube Dielectric Grease for metal to plastic, less than $10 (Amazon prime) for a large tube (less in auto parts/hardware stores).
I use Finish Line Flouro Extreme for switches (it's a little thinner viscosity but close). If you order from Amazon Prime it's half the price of Krytox (per oz./gram), and even less if you buy locally (bike shop). If you order from a Chinese supplier it's half again as much.

You can get enough of both to do over hundred keyboards and barely break $20. If you order bulk or from a Chinese supplier you would have enough to do thousands for $25 or so.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)

Offline Maledicted

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  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #33 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 12:10:35 »
SPRiT has all of the box switch springs you could ever hope for. I tried some that were supposed to be progressively weighted (I couldn't tell a difference there), etc, but went right back to the stock springs myself. I personally like the weighting, but I also like box navies ... which I'm using now.
Huh,
I'll have to look, they aren't shipping at the moment and my usual places don't seem to have them. Then again I've ordered springs from 2 places in the last 2 weeks and neither has yet to ship either.

Suppliers, if you say you're shipping, SHIP.

I haven't checked their stock or anything recently, I just know they have them, usually in weighting increments of 5g across a pretty wide band of weightings, either standard or gold plated. They also have alternative/replacement click bars. No combination of likely click bar and spring swap got me close enough to something like Alps SKCM to hold my attention. I could take a look at what I have, if they're not shipping at the moment. I probably have at least a keyboard's worth of slightly lighter springs than stock for jades that I'll likely never use.

Have you tried the box pinks? I keep procrastinating on getting some.

You would know better than I about the keyboard lubricant market, if anything is even actually marketed to/designed for keyboards. A lot of markets are full of almost useless/overpriced snake oil. I'm not sure how you could destroy much of anything as low wear as key switches with the wrong oil of a relatively light viscosity. With grease, or something thicker, there's of course maybe suspended particles scraping up sliders ... like with Alps.
Other than a few exceptions lubricants are rarely designed for a specific application, they are just marketed that way by various brands.

No one is targeting keyboards, it's too small and not competitive in that way, the place you want to look is cycling, motorycles and RC cars, places where plastics and lubricants are used in competition and hobby and people will drop big bucks on lubricants. However, all you really have to do is look at the formulation and viscosity, we have no worry about water, heat, rust or high impact loads.

I use Super Lube Dielectric Grease for metal to plastic, less than $10 (Amazon prime) for a large tube (less in auto parts/hardware stores).
I use Finish Line Flouro Extreme for switches (it's a little thinner viscosity but close). If you order from Amazon Prime it's half the price of Krytox (per oz./gram), and even less if you buy locally (bike shop). If you order from a Chinese supplier it's half again as much.

You can get enough of both to do over hundred keyboards and barely break $20. If you order bulk or from a Chinese supplier you would have enough to do thousands for $25 or so.

I don't follow all of this as closely as I might other things. I hear the name Krytox a lot. How would you compare it against Finish Line Flouro Extreme? I have dielectric grease around, I did actually use it on my F77's keyboard stabilizer wire.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Really scratchy switches, did I do something wrong?
« Reply #34 on: Thu, 30 July 2020, 20:59:38 »
Have you tried the box pinks? I keep procrastinating on getting some.

I don't follow all of this as closely as I might other things. I hear the name Krytox a lot. How would you compare it against Finish Line Flouro Extreme? I have dielectric grease around, I did actually use it on my F77's keyboard stabilizer wire.

I haven't tried pinks or Krytox.
Pinks supposedly have a very different feel, not only is the spring different but so is the click bar, the bottom out pressure is actually less than the actuation pressure (which is higher than a Jade).

I refuse to spend that kind of money on such a small amount of lubricant when I know there is an equivalent for far less. Even if there was a minor difference it's too small to notice.
Filco MJ2 L.E. w/hand milled Vortex case, custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, sound dampened,  Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs | HMMK TKL | Magicforce 68 | YMDK75 | KBT Race S L.E. | Das Pro (Costar model) | GH60 | IBM Model M (x2)