Author Topic: Keyboard...science?  (Read 3062 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IceCandle

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 17
Keyboard...science?
« on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 08:38:51 »
.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 June 2022, 00:59:21 by IceCandle »

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: United State
    • treeleaf64
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 08 August 2020, 09:40:30 »
Elasticity of plate material  to see why people like not metal plates

Sound acoustics of aluminum/plastic to see why people like metal cases vs other materials

How mounting options affect flex and suspending action of the plate

treeleaf64: https://discord.gg/rbUjtsRG6P

Everyone must pay the cat tax

Offline tp4tissue

  • * Destiny Supporter
  • Posts: 13722
  • Location: Official Geekhack Public Defender..
  • OmniExpert of: Rice, Top-Ramen, Ergodox, n Females
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 20:45:39 »
The majority of these projects are exercises in Vanity.  They're not pushing any revolutionary design, many are quite artistically crass.

Machining aluminum in anything but straight lines becomes exponentially more expensive and failure prone. Since the market can't quite support that kind of investment,  we're stuck with these mainly uninspired sandwiches.

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 1091
  • Location: Asia
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 21:27:23 »
The majority of these projects are exercises in Vanity.  They're not pushing any revolutionary design, many are quite artistically crass.

Machining aluminum in anything but straight lines becomes exponentially more expensive and failure prone. Since the market can't quite support that kind of investment,  we're stuck with these mainly uninspired sandwiches.


This belongs as a sticky in the IC section :D

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 4567
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 09 August 2020, 21:28:53 »
A few months ago I stumbled across a post (https://brianlee.blog/2018/11/23/guide-keyboard-construction-explained/) which summarizes various factors of what affects the feeling. Throughout the article he expresses his thought about the lack of creativity in keyboard design, and I agree considering the ultimate answer of recommendation is "preference".
{CUT}
More studies and experiments could reduce the time and effort spent in finding the endgame even after considering different people have different tastes.
Most technology reaches a point where major innovation is few and far between, it stops being revolutionary and instead evolutionary. This is the point where there is very little left you can add to make it better, and you can't remove anything without giving up something. Trying to replace something that has already peaked is really difficult and the simpler the item is the more difficult it becomes, keyboards are relatively simple.  Yes, we added wireless, bluetooth backlighting, rgb, usb... None of those actually changed the primary purpose which is typing.


There is no endgame, new things enter the market all the time.
Novelkeys NK65AE w/62g Zilents/39g springs
More
62g Zilents/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, pic
| Filco MJ2 L.E. Vortex Case, Jailhouse Blues, heavily customized
More
Vortex case squared up/blasted finish removed/custom feet/paint/winkey blockoff plate, HID Liberator, stainless steel universal plate, 3d printed adapters, Type C, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, foam sound dampened, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps (o-ringed), Cherry Jailhouse Blues w/lubed/clipped Cherry light springs, 40g actuation
| GMMK TKL
More
w/ Kailh Purple Pros/lubed/Novelkeys 39g springs, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, Netdot Gen10 Magnetic cable
| PF65 3d printed 65% w/LCD and hot swap
More
Box Jades, Interchangeable trim, mini lcd, QMK, underglow, HK Gaming Thick PBT caps, O-rings, Netdot Gen10 magnetic cable, in progress link
| Magicforce 68
More
MF68 pcb, Outemu Blues, in progress
| YMDK75 Jail Housed Gateron Blues
More
J-spacers, YMDK Thick PBT, O-rings, SIP sockets
| KBT Race S L.E.
More
Ergo Clears, custom WASD caps
| Das Pro
More
Costar model with browns
| GH60
More
Cherry Blacks, custom 3d printed case
| Logitech Illumininated | IBM Model M (x2)
Definitive Omron Guide. | 3d printed Keyboard FAQ/Discussion

Offline IceCandle

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 17
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 11 August 2020, 22:45:47 »
.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 June 2022, 00:59:35 by IceCandle »

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 1091
  • Location: Asia
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 11 August 2020, 23:07:24 »
People are not interested in 'science' or research when it comes to keyboards. People just go with inertia.

We are still using the same basic layout as from the late 1800s, staggered QWERTY. Created to deal with the limitations of mechanical linkages from over a century ago.

There have been attempts to radically improve things over the years, which have stagnated. Dvorak, Colemak, ortholinear, concave, thumb clusters, all these all remain obscure.

If you look in the Ergo section, there are people who create layouts based on statistical analysis of key frequency, which I admire, but even within the keyboard hobby, ergo itself is a niche, and layouts are an even smaller part of that.

Edited for typos.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:46:54 by jamster »

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 13:03:49 »
The points made by treeleaf64 have been taken for granted, definitely need precise explanation.

I actually prefer thick steel plates, and I bottom out hard on them, so I don't think there's any scientific answer to that. Thick plastic cases actually produce a lower-pitched sound than metal cases ... so depending on whether or not you want something high or low is also just preference. The third part is interesting, and MAYBE useful, but would still come down to preference.

Most technology reaches a point where major innovation is few and far between, it stops being revolutionary and instead evolutionary. This is the point where there is very little left you can add to make it better, and you can't remove anything without giving up something.
I doubt the keyboard technology has reached its peak, there are many questions we didn't dare to properly answer like are the cross-shaped switches best for the feeling. In the 19th century people thought science is finished, the only thing left is to find constants and connect the world with existing theories. Then theory of relativity and quantum physics completely changed the field. As custom keebs are slowly becoming mainstream, when the right manufacturer appears the elitist community will change positively.

How many new designs for an axe do you see? A manual toothbrush? How much has the internal combustion engine changed in the last 100 years? why haven't firearms functionally changed at all since the early 20th century? (soon after the creation of smokeless powder) Hall effect and optical switches are the talk of the town again, but they've been around for decades and had fallen mostly out of use. During the dark ages of the keyboard, the 1990s and 2000s, mechanical keyboards became all but extinct outside of industrial and POS applications. Why is that? Because cheap rubber dome boards are relatively reliable and get the job done just as well as an IBM beam spring that would itself cost much more to manufacture than most people's entire computer setup today. If they go bad, oh well, they are worth nothing, so you toss it and get another one. Why has QWERTY stuck around even longer than the typewriter itself by this point? Because, like rubber domes, it is just good enough. We found something that worked so well that going anywhere else with it became a give or take and not necessarily an objective improvement.

We may have personal preferences towards a given technology, and there will always be limited development one way or another. Without something that doesn't fundamentally improve function, cost, or efficiency, we will continue to have keyboards that are functionally exactly as they are now, as they have been for 40-50+ years. I once read a review from some "journalist" on a laser projection keyboard that proclaimed them to be the downfall of the physical keyboard.

I think a perfect example of this is the smartphone/tablet. People heralded them as the downfall of the traditional laptop and desktop computer. We would all soon be doing everything on a useless, tiny touchscreen, instead of with real peripherals ... on hardware with inferior computing ability. We don't have anything fundamentally better than a physical keyboard, we don't have anything fundamentally better than a physical mouse. I don't think that even AR will get there without better integration of depth perception. We'll always be able to cram more transistors into a larger space than a smaller one, so desktop computers will always be more powerful (with better cooling) than handheld devices. Desktop monitors, with modern resolutions, will always make more sense than tiny phone screens in all applications.

All technology rapidly progresses when new, and can see a renaissance in at least some ways when a related technology emerges or radically changes. As any technology matures, these things become less and less frequent, because we've spent considerable time and effort on perfecting it. Any improvements (so long as they're even still possible) yield less and less practical gains.

Cross-shaped switches may feel better ... to you, and they may not to the very next person who tries them. A lot more changed than the theory of relativity and quantum physics. In fact, I would say that those things have barely contributed anything in the grand scheme of things. Most of our advancements have been iterative, based on other technologies. In the 19th century we had already gone through centuries of near technological stagnation. It would have surprised me if they hadn't thought that we had reached our apex, because the available technology for research and experimentation was abysmal and had changed little throughout history by that point. It took industrialization and mass production to kick start a wave of technological innovation. Carnegie spread the efficient production of steel around the world. With quality and quantity of available steel increasing, the means of production of other products changed. Things that were not possible with existing materials were suddenly possible. These steel products then helped to shape the future of other technologies, and those technologies in turn shaped the future of more technologies (be it through manufacturing optimization or gradually creating better and better scientific tools in order to discover what we previously could not have). Parts were no longer handmade and custom fit, they could be consistently molded, forged, cut, sanded, milled, etc, by machines. The assembly line further optimized this to the point that we could suddenly quickly mass produce things that would cost a fortune for some artisan to painstakingly produce as a one-of-a-kind just a few decades earlier.

We're back to a period of relative stagnation today. I don't see it changing much any time soon. As new ideas and discoveries emerge (most of which now require technology we could not have even dreamt of 100 years ago), because of the technologies we've already developed, we can more easily and quickly identify and eliminate problems with them, and streamline their development and production, but we need another fundamental change on the scale of industrialization to see something similar again, if ever. Otherwise we're stuck with a sprinkling of mostly potential iterative changes, like battery weight, capacity, efficiency, etc.
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2020, 13:05:37 by Maledicted »

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: United State
    • treeleaf64
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 13:51:07 »
Keyboards are fun to type on!!

And as long as there are people that want to innovate  , and are creating new things,  then there will be progression.

Recently there was a creation of a  magnetic mount keyboard in China.

I think best way to innovate is find out what went well in the past and transfer it to the present  . Such as Hall effect switch, Magnetic reed , transfer into modern keyboard with modern protocol.
treeleaf64: https://discord.gg/rbUjtsRG6P

Everyone must pay the cat tax

Offline hvontres

  • Posts: 185
  • Location: Oceanside, CA
  • Buckling Spring Enthusiast - Full Size Evangelist
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 15:06:37 »
One other potential issue with scientifically designing a keyboard is that a lot of what people like or dislike about a particular keyboard comes down to perception. And once someone has perceived a difference based on some design, you will have a very tough time convincing them otherwise. Some of my most difficult design problems as an engineer have had to do with fixing the perception of a problem without creating an actual problem in the process.

On top of that, when it comes to higher end bespoke custom builds you will run into issues similar to those in high end audio, where some people will be convinced they can hear the difference between two different power cords going into their rig. There may be no measurable difference (given the measuring tools we have) but in their head there is something better. And because this happens in their brain, we will never know if it is just wishful thinking on not having wasted several hundred dollars on a line cord of if they have some kind of auditory superpower us mere mortals will never understand.

Now the new breed of optical/magnetic switches actually has the potential to create some innovation. For one, the feel of the switch is now completely separated from the switching action, so some interesting force/displacement curves might be possible. Plus the analog nature of some of these switches can be used to do things like adjustable actuation points and actual analog input from the keyboard (imagine a nav cluster based mouse with adjustable speed). And I could see the possibility of creating some (very expensive) active switches, that can use the feedback from the sensing element to alter the force based on key-press. Will this be much better than a standard switch? Probably not worth it for most, but for the true enthusiast there might be no substitute.
Henry von Tresckow

               
1986 Model M 1390131, 1987 Model M 1391401 , 1993 Model M2 Modded Reddragon k556(Test Mule) Boston Prototype x2 (Daily Drivers :) )

Offline treeleaf64

  • Posts: 1841
  • Location: United State
    • treeleaf64
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 17:36:05 »
One other potential issue with scientifically designing a keyboard is that a lot of what people like or dislike about a particular keyboard comes down to perception. And once someone has perceived a difference based on some design, you will have a very tough time convincing them otherwise. Some of my most difficult design problems as an engineer have had to do with fixing the perception of a problem without creating an actual problem in the process.

On top of that, when it comes to higher end bespoke custom builds you will run into issues similar to those in high end audio, where some people will be convinced they can hear the difference between two different power cords going into their rig. There may be no measurable difference (given the measuring tools we have) but in their head there is something better. And because this happens in their brain, we will never know if it is just wishful thinking on not having wasted several hundred dollars on a line cord of if they have some kind of auditory superpower us mere mortals will never understand.

Now the new breed of optical/magnetic switches actually has the potential to create some innovation. For one, the feel of the switch is now completely separated from the switching action, so some interesting force/displacement curves might be possible. Plus the analog nature of some of these switches can be used to do things like adjustable actuation points and actual analog input from the keyboard (imagine a nav cluster based mouse with adjustable speed). And I could see the possibility of creating some (very expensive) active switches, that can use the feedback from the sensing element to alter the force based on key-press. Will this be much better than a standard switch? Probably not worth it for most, but for the true enthusiast there might be no substitute.

That is true , ,  for all the hype around Topre   . . it is just collapsing rubber!  ! !

And sometimes inferior plastic   with   not so good friction coefficient  can become  great switch   -   like Alps  - with good enough design

Sorry   about the  spaces  in  between   words
treeleaf64: https://discord.gg/rbUjtsRG6P

Everyone must pay the cat tax

Offline jamster

  • Posts: 1091
  • Location: Asia
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 12 August 2020, 21:59:46 »
That is true , ,  for all the hype around Topre   . . it is just collapsing rubber!  ! !


Topre fans are completely aware of this. I guess this really highlights that attention to detail in design, and manufacturing precision remain critically important aspects in 'high end' products.

PS: What keyboard are you currently on that's giving you so much trouble? :)
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 August 2020, 22:22:08 by jamster »

Offline IceCandle

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 17
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 15 August 2020, 11:34:33 »
.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 June 2022, 00:59:48 by IceCandle »

Offline hvontres

  • Posts: 185
  • Location: Oceanside, CA
  • Buckling Spring Enthusiast - Full Size Evangelist
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 15 August 2020, 17:12:25 »

One other potential issue with scientifically designing a keyboard is that a lot of what people like or dislike about a particular keyboard comes down to perception. And once someone has perceived a difference based on some design, you will have a very tough time convincing them otherwise. Some of my most difficult design problems as an engineer have had to do with fixing the perception of a problem without creating an actual problem in the process.

On top of that, when it comes to higher end bespoke custom builds you will run into issues similar to those in high end audio, where some people will be convinced they can hear the difference between two different power cords going into their rig.

Now the new breed of optical/magnetic switches actually has the potential to create some innovation. For one, the feel of the switch is now completely separated from the switching action, so some interesting force/displacement curves might be possible. Plus the analog nature of some of these switches can be used to do things like adjustable actuation points and actual analog input from the keyboard (imagine a nav cluster based mouse with adjustable speed). And I could see the possibility of creating some (very expensive) active switches, that can use the feedback from the sensing element to alter the force based on key-press.
Care to elaborate on the first issue? I initially interpreted the paragraph as 'people don't change easily', but that doesn't seem correct.
So-called golden ears are the reason experiments based on blind tests should be held.
Truly customizable switches, just like a game controller whose turntable-like plate's tension can be adjusted (it exists!)

Written with a key popped off laptop keyboard

Which key ? (JK)
What I was trying to explain was that sometimes an end user will perceive something as potentially causing issues when in fact trying to fix the perceived issue will make things worse. I am not sure exactly how this fits in with keyboards, I was using as an example how some customer preferences may not be based on science and may even go against applying sound scientific principals. I guess as I am typing this, one example I can think of in this vein is the whole "if it's not Cherry MX, how good can it be" perception among users of prebuilt keyboards. There is a perception that the other manufacturers must be inferior, even if the offerings may have some slight advantages over what Cherry has and it can be shown with data and graphs.

As far as the golden ears go, I think it is even harder with keyboards, since you need golden fingers as well as the golden ears.

It would be nice if someone could come up with a good way to take all of the nice force curves they have at Input Club and allow users to overlay the graphs for several different switches to easily compare the switch characteristics on the same scale. But this only works once you have at lest tried a couple of different switches to get an idea of what kind of force curve appeals to you and which you want to avoid.

I think another interesting issue with trying to scientifically design the perfect keyboard is how do you measure certain things. How do you assign a measurement to the overall sound of a build? How does one quantify the feel of a certain key profile when typing? Granted, one could look at the frequency content of the sound or try to measure how a key cap profile affects the travel distance for each finger. But then how does one fit this kind of data back to what "feels right" to a given person? Granted, this would help sort out some of the more egregious things like a sound profile with a lot of high end piercing noise (cough Mx Blues cough) but I think once past those easy things, the road to an endgame keyboard will be filled with a lot of experimentation.

Composed on a lovely buckling spring board with all the keys still intact :)
Henry von Tresckow

               
1986 Model M 1390131, 1987 Model M 1391401 , 1993 Model M2 Modded Reddragon k556(Test Mule) Boston Prototype x2 (Daily Drivers :) )

Offline Kavik

  • Posts: 819
Re: Keyboard...science?
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 15 August 2020, 20:13:05 »
I think a major inhibitor to any innovation is the incredibly long time it takes to become efficient with any change in a keyboard. Think about how long it took you to learn to type on a QWERTY keyboard and how frustrating and slow it is to learn DVORAK. I learnt typing on QWERTY when I was a kid and have been doing it for decades now. It's a bit like trying to find a more efficient language; one may technically be better, but it takes so long to learn and use that it's easier just to stick with the existing less efficient one that everyone already knows.
Maybe they're waiting for gasmasks and latex to get sexy again.

The world has become a weird place.