Author Topic: Excellent Article on F00k00shima  (Read 961 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« on: Sun, 21 March 2021, 21:15:18 »
it's almost like watching HBO's Chern0by1.  /Depressing

There is only wastelands in nooqular, we must turn away now.


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Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 03:46:07 »
what would you rather have?
-Nuclear, proven to be the safest by far, if not mishandled by overzealous devotes or built on a seismic fail.
-Coal, more dangerous, more expensive to run, more pollution, and tend to blow up and cover the region in a thick dust that is rather bad for you,
-Gaz, same as coal, just have to add huge pipes going everywhere, and less dust
Right now with our current technological level and overly capitalistic mentality full renewable is actually impossible for 3 reasons:
-Cost, in actual money and in surface, if you wish to as well go full vegetable you will need more surface than there actually is usable land.
-Inertia, all 3 of the current most used energies have built in inertia, you need to add it with renewable, either with huge spiny weights (inertia wheels) rather safe and efficient but takes up a lot of space, chemicals that are either unsafe, inefficient or takes a lot of space, or statically with capacitors, that are inefficient and take a lot of space, and all of those are expensive compared to the built in turbines that serve the 2 purposes in one.
-Transport, how do you take the energy from where it can be produced to where it is needed?
nuclear is an easy horse to beat on, although it is not the right one...
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 08:15:24 »
Incorrect,  nooq is the MOST DANGEROUS , LEAST EFFICIENT form of electrical power.

ANY other form of power including Coal is better.

The industry statistics for nooq always claim clean, but it's only ~6% cleaner than coal, when mining, transport, processing, refinement, concrete use is taken into account.  Ultimately at the end of the pipe it adds indefinite upkeep cost to maintaining / guarding nooq waste. 

Nooq power is ALWAYS NET NEGATIVE POWER.

Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 09:14:53 »
Incorrect,  nooq is the MOST DANGEROUS , LEAST EFFICIENT form of electrical power.

ANY other form of power including Coal is better.

the numbers last time i saw them said that nuclear is about 10 times safer than coal, coal being by far the least safe with the highest death toll per year and nuclear being the safest, with less than one death per year...

The industry statistics for nooq always claim clean, but it's only ~6% cleaner than coal, when mining transport, processing, refinement, concrete is taken into account.  Ultimately at the end of the pipe it adds indefinite upkeep cost to maintaining / guarding nooq waste. 

nuclear is cleaner because you use a lot less fuel, and reactors capable of using spent fuel were being developed a few years back, so less active fuel to deal with in the end. end in both cases waste is an issue, gaz and coal release huge amounts of CO2 that you can't do anything about and will not disappear either in the next few millennia, and be far more universally damaging.

Nooq power is ALWAYS NET NEGATIVE POWER.

and no, stop saying **** like that, negative power can not exist, and no matter how you check no we do not use more power keeping those running than they produce, i was only talking fission not fusion.
and keep in mind i never said that nuclear fission is the ultimate power source, just the best we have until we find a way to make fusion work or to transport and store energy efficiently. and yes it is scary and yes it is dangerous, but so is your microwave oven or your car, it so happen that for once the scariest is not the most dangerous, they have so many fail safes now that bringing one down takes 2 natural disasters on a scale rarely seen before. when better alternatives are available, like wave and wind in japan, then for sure use them, but until we can put concentrated solar towers in the Sahara and one store, 2 deliver that power everywhere else
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 09:20:32 »
All of your points are incorrect.

- Nooq is infinitely more dangerous than Coal, it has killed millions of people, and increased cancer/heart disease/ autism rates on the entire Northern hemisphere.   

- The industry statistics are bunk,   they tally but a few hundred people to die from nooq ever,  YET, the Soviet Union had to Utilize 1 MILLION (people) Liquidators just to clean up Chernobyl.  The majority died early in their lives from cancer / heart disease, caused by radiati0n damage.

- We live in a nooqular shadow.

- All attempts at using Reprocessed Fuel has failed.  It can't be done, and the people who got the furthest the Japanese have completely abandoned the process as they simply can't get it working. It flat out costs MORE, and uses more power to use reprocessed fuel.

- Nooq is NET NEGATIVE in usable energy.

Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 09:54:05 »
All of your points are incorrect.
- Nooq is infinitely more dangerous than Coal, it has killed millions of people, and increased cancer/heart disease/ autism rates on the entire Northern hemisphere.   

- The industry statistics are bunk,   they tally but a few hundred people to die from nooq ever,  YET, the Soviet Union had to Utilize 1 MILLION (people) Liquidators just to clean up Chernobyl.  The majority died early in their lives from cancer / heart disease, caused by radiati0n damage.

this kinda read "nanana you are wrong nanana fake news..." well i guess Trump is American too
from where i read my number they said they included all death due to accidents, including long term radiation, you do not understand that there was only ever 4 accidents that caused deaths (plural)(including estimated radiation deaths) while on coal it is more of a monthly occurrence. 4 accidents in about a century each causing from 20 to 400 death is not a lot, and **** off with the "Autism" card, ffs ionizing radiation can cause anything that is genetic, as it can alter DNA, mainly cause cancer though as random damage to dna tend to either do nothing or cause cancer, only a very very small chance that it could cause Autism or hearth diseases, yes it can and maybe did for a few. and Chernobyl was the mistake of an overzealous ****-for-brain manager not listening to what the scientist told him would happen, and we all know how it ended...

- We live in a nooqular shadow.

what does that even mean? is it just scaremongering now?

- All attempts at using Reprocessed Fuel has failed.  It can't be done, and the people who got the furthest the Japanese have completely abandoned the process as they simply can't get it working. It flat out costs MORE, and uses more power to use reprocessed fuel.

did not work yet does not mean it will never, solar and simple nuclear did not for decades too. and yet here we are

- Nooq is NET NEGATIVE in usable energy.

And no you can't have negative energy, stop violating the law of thermodynamics, energy like length can't be negative, else we could travel back in time, fun stuff i tell you.
i just do not know if you know and you are just trying to scare peoples or if you really are just a miniTrump here
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 10:12:39 »
what would you rather have?
-Nuclear, proven to be the safest by far, if not mishandled by overzealous devotes or built on a seismic fail.
What makes you think it's the safest? By what metric?
One of the reasons against green power was kicking the debt down the road, nuclear power is the king at kicking a problem down the road for future generations. The only time nuclear energy is cheap and clean is when it's generating power. At any other other time from construction to shutdown it's extremely expensive and dirty, the operators who say it's so cheap and clean ignore this when discussing it, why, because they get subsidies to construct it and then they just declare the company bankrupt and walk away when it's finished. Force nuclear energy to create a trust fund, not for a disaster but post-use cleanup and waste storage and I guarantee you they will change their tune really fast regarding how cheap it is. It's only cheap because you subsidize the hell out of it before and after. By the way, I don't remember a wind farm ever threatening all of Europe, Tokyo or even a neighborhood regardless of how many mistakes were made with it.

Inertia, great!!! (by the way, these are industry stats)
70% of all new plants are renewables.
Wind is in a three way race between hydro and nuclear for 3rd place for power production. Coal (#2) has decreased 30% every year the past few years, in about 2 years, wind power will take over the #2 slot. Solar and oil are in a two way race for 6th place, though at the growth of solar it's going to pass Coal, hydro and nuclear about the time wind passes coal.

Land... Covering 10% of your roof is now enough to power most homes (even way up north) and California is considering a plan to cover aquaducts with solar panels, it will generate a lot of power while reducing evaporation, saving water at the same time. Any idea how much empty space is in the south west. Seriously, if you've never driven across it you will have a hard time comprehending it, but no one ever said it has to be on land or even flat land, we can put wind farms in the ocean, uninhabitable hillsides, almost anywhere, same for solar.


Your arguments are talking points of an industry desperate for public acceptance, the nuclear industry saw an opportunity to present themselves as a green alternative to coal  and is desperate to make it look true but it's all based on lies, half truths and outdated information. Wind and solar has changed massively in just the last few years alone yet the information nuclear presents is based on 70's technology and using the same arguments environmentalists used to push nuclear back then as a stop gap until we found something better. We found something better and no longer need it and the power industry is moving to it.
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Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 11:15:53 »
can you both stop reading what i did not say? as i said, in the previous post yes nuclear is going to die, but the reason why we still need it or an other steam spinning a turbine is that they can compensate for huge surges in demand, i said that we should find other ways, i even gave examples, and i explained why nuclear of the 3 spinning huge metal wheels is the safest.
just how solar or wind will power your house at night when you use most of the power? Lithium batteries are polluting and a huge fire hazard if not checked on, flow batteries are huge for their capacity and current capabilities, lead contains lead and Ni-MH is really unsuitable for long term high power applications, i am not saying to build more nuclear plant either, or at least not when better options are available, but also not replace them by coal like Germany is doing.
Nothing that we have now is perfect, or remotely good enough, so what i am saying is to stop throwing the stone at only one but everything, photovoltaic solar also is a nightmare when it comes to production and pollution, molten salt concentrated solar light installations to me seems to be a decent alternative for the day, but by night what do you use? no wind and no solar.
I am such a defender and believer in the full nuclear that i pay extra so that all my electricity comes from renewable, that is how much i believe in it.
What i am saying is to 1st tackle the coal and gaz and then dismantle the nuclear plants as they age and we can replace them by better options that we do not have yet. from what i know a 70 to 80% renewable is viable with current tech, although that include a lot of solar, that last about 5 years at good efficiency and then need replacement...
to my mind the future is either thermal solar or fusion, or both not PV and batteries at all, spinning masses allow for storage without energy conversions in those systems, and usually spinning disks do not combust or off-gas by themselves.
TL;DR: nuclear is doomed, yes, but let's kill off coal and gas 1st, and find something better than photovoltaic
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 11:28:25 »
Yui,  you clearly have NOT researched this material, the information you are arguing for is absolutely false.

Nooq power does NOT work, neither the engineering, nor the financial. It is a complete failure and only creates toxic dumps which future generations have to labor to maintain indefinitely.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 23:48:05 »
let's kill off coal and gas 1st, and find something better than photovoltaic
I did read it and we are killing off coal, quickly in fact (at a rate of 30% per year) and natural gas has already peaked.

Yes, nuclear can ramp up and down for demand, so can solar and wind, in fact every system has ways to increase or decrease demand. Maybe not always locally due to shifting wind and sun but that's why we have a grid, you can pull from somewhere that does. The same applies to your home, most solar powered homes are still connected to the grid and draw power if they need it, usually the off-grid homes are built specifically to be off-grid. You don't have to use batteries if you're still connected, that's an off-grid and a Tesla thing not an industry standard thing. At the grid level, yes, some are using batteries but it's not Lithiums, (other than the Tesla system in Australia), some are using water batteries and salt batteries but so far this is still a pretty new addition to the grid and evolving fast.

Tesla uses batteries because it allows for you to have fewer solar cells and still ride out the high draw times, however high draw on the grid and high draw at your home are two different things. At the house level high draw comes in short spikes, it's not you watching tv or using lights, it's your fridge or heater/air conditioner kicking on and off. Your lights and computer and such make up a small fraction of your actual power use, most of the day these high draw items (1500-3000+ watts) sit idle or only run a fan, so why generate enough power to run them all day?  Tesla uses the battery for those times allowing you to only needing to buy around 20% of the solar panels you normally would. Most off-grid use a lot more solar cells allowing for fewer batteries, and when they do they typically use deep cycle lead acid just like your car, boat, UPS, not Lithium. Tesla has a hold on that for the most part. Eventually they probably will but not just yet.  We're also findidng ways to reduce the power used in those high draw appliances, heat pumps use FAR less power.

This idea that we need nuclear is being pushed by the nuclear industry, not power industry experts.
We don't need it and the proof is in the fact that we aren't building any more of them, I don't think any new plants in the planning stages are coal powered, less than a handful are nuclear and those may not even make it to construction. Pretty much all new plants are gas, solar and wind, and I won't be surprised if the number of gas plants planned  decreases a ton before they even start construction as wind and solar is killing them. Like I said, 70% of new plants are wind or solar.
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Offline Coreda

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 01:41:55 »
Such a discussion is bound to go back and forth to some degree when one person states things and then the other and both say they're incorrect but no sources are posted.

I cited some figures in the last topic about nuclear vs coal (a piece by NASA, some Wiki links, etc) since I was just curious in where tp was getting their 6% figure (still don't know) but since no sources for the things being emphatically stated were produced (apart from one which actually aligned with the prior figures I'd linked) it makes it less straightforward to judge the accuracy of certain things.

The crux of the core points that can be checked were nuclear waste is dangerous to store long term and requires vigilant maintenance (which is argued to be impractical), secondly that a severe nuclear disaster can affect a wide region (which even given the prior few disasters was argued by the NASA piece to be less detrimental for the globe than coal presently).

It's not even that I'm keen on nuclear, either, it's just helpful to know in such discussions what the foundations for certain points are. More solar would be nice.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 March 2021, 01:46:30 by Coreda »

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 07:56:44 »
The crux of the core points that can be checked were nuclear waste is dangerous to store long term and requires vigilant maintenance (which is argued to be impractical), secondly that a severe nuclear disaster can affect a wide region (which even given the prior few disasters was argued by the NASA piece to be less detrimental for the globe than coal presently).

To this day,  We have exchange programs in Ukraine and Belarus where children in affected radiation zones are carted off to other places during summers to  HEAL, as they are very sick with depressed immune systems.

The lives lost in these communities are of course NOT counted by any industry statistics for the Harm done.

Of course we're not going to find any real industry data, because the industry is the Government's military industrial complex,  You're then asking the weapons manufacturers how many people have been killed by their bullets,    What answer would we expect to find.

Citizen scientists and watchdogs have poured over the information for decades. Millions have died from the disaster that is Nuclear power.

Let's take a low estimate, 1 MILLION liquidators mobilized to clean up Chernobyl,  If on average every one lost 20yrs on their lifespan, that's 200,000 people dead. (thousands upon thousands died much quicker than that, but this is an estimate).   How many people died of related causes according to the OFFICIAL count ?  31, THIRTY-ONE

Nooq is not a 1 and done,  There are LASTING effects that will resonate for ~300-10,000 years.  This means for the next 10,000 years, there will long lineages of genetic damage in affected areas.

we're 13 years into Fukushima,  JPN is still actively hiding victim cases from public discourse, they have blanketed all press-freedoms becoming one of the worst free-speech nations.

Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 08:57:16 »
the reason i am not citing my sources is that i am a bit more lazy now than when i made my essays on the subject for school a while back, and way too lazy to go back and search all those sources again.
let's kill off coal and gas 1st, and find something better than photovoltaic
I did read it and we are killing off coal, quickly in fact (at a rate of 30% per year) and natural gas has already peaked.
Yes, nuclear can ramp up and down for demand, so can solar and wind, in fact every system has ways to increase or decrease demand. Maybe not always locally due to shifting wind and sun but that's why we have a grid, you can pull from somewhere that does. The same applies to your home, most solar powered homes are still connected to the grid and draw power if they need it, usually the off-grid homes are built specifically to be off-grid. You don't have to use batteries if you're still connected, that's an off-grid and a Tesla thing not an industry standard thing. At the grid level, yes, some are using batteries but it's not Lithiums, (other than the Tesla system in Australia), some are using water batteries and salt batteries but so far this is still a pretty new addition to the grid and evolving fast.
yes of course all can ramp up and down, Nuclear is even by far the worse at it, and it is the point of it, the inertia of spinning rust at high rate make those type or gas turbines very useful as they can absorb spikes before others can react, it is the point, be it nuclear or any other type of thermal energy source boiling the water, does not make any difference to that. just that for now coal is a far worse option than nuclear. and i never talked off the grid stuff, i talked about the huge stuff how do you provide electricity at night with wind and solar? either huge batteries that no one wants to build and are rather inefficient or coal/gas in your idea, or does no one use power at night in your scenario? there are a few emerging battery tech that may work but batteries have a rather finite and short life span. i just feel that everyone is destroying before thinking about the replacement....
Tesla uses batteries because it allows for you to have fewer solar cells and still ride out the high draw times, however high draw on the grid and high draw at your home are two different things. At the house level high draw comes in short spikes, it's not you watching tv or using lights, it's your fridge or heater/air conditioner kicking on and off. Your lights and computer and such make up a small fraction of your actual power use, most of the day these high draw items (1500-3000+ watts) sit idle or only run a fan, so why generate enough power to run them all day?  Tesla uses the battery for those times allowing you to only needing to buy around 20% of the solar panels you normally would. Most off-grid use a lot more solar cells allowing for fewer batteries, and when they do they typically use deep cycle lead acid just like your car, boat, UPS, not Lithium. Tesla has a hold on that for the most part. Eventually they probably will but not just yet.  We're also findidng ways to reduce the power used in those high draw appliances, heat pumps use FAR less power.
using less power is i agree a very important step, just for example heat pumps are rather expensive... and as previously i am not only talking homes, i just hopped the image would help peoples understand what i meant, did more harm than good.
This idea that we need nuclear is being pushed by the nuclear industry, not power industry experts.
We don't need it and the proof is in the fact that we aren't building any more of them, I don't think any new plants in the planning stages are coal powered, less than a handful are nuclear and those may not even make it to construction. Pretty much all new plants are gas, solar and wind, and I won't be surprised if the number of gas plants planned  decreases a ton before they even start construction as wind and solar is killing them. Like I said, 70% of new plants are wind or solar.
Government PR moves should not really be taken as scientific facts... governments now that nuclear as a bad PR so build coal instead, just making the problem worse... i am saying before killing nuclear and relying on gas/coal we need to build the future that will not kill us even faster nuclear is just a very horse to beat on so everyone joins for a quick buck and easy PR and makes the future even more problematic.

to explain why i talk inertia, to spin up and down a wind turbine can take from 15 to 60 minutes while your spike is instantaneous, you need something to absorb that spike else you get brown and black outs, this is why we need either very high energy batteries doted around the place(and anyone saying high energy in a small area also talk explosion waiting to happen) or something to spin rust so that you have stored energy somewhere. you also say that the grid will cover for the deficiencies in the ability for power to be produced anywhere, only issue is that it was never built for that, you would need to transport much higher quantities of power from places where energy is produced but population is low to where it is consumed.

TL;DR: ffs peoples stop destroying before thinking of what to build, build and then destroy what was here before, we are doing things backward. and yes i will defend anything that i see a bit of good in

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Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 09:06:29 »

Nooq is not a 1 and done,  There are LASTING effects that will resonate for ~300-10,000 years.  This means for the next 10,000 years, there will long lineages of genetic damage in affected areas.

we're 13 years into Fukushima,  JPN is still actively hiding victim cases from public discourse, they have blanketed all press-freedoms becoming one of the worst free-speech nations.

literally nothing is one and done, what do you make of the very polluting solar panel production and recycling and the metric tons of CO2 released from gas and coal? or the bombs tested?
and do not worry about Japan, they have not reached USA or China levels of "freedom" yet, and yes the government will hide its mistakes because well, putting nuclear in a seismically active region is suicide, and everybody knew that.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 23:28:41 »
yes of course all can ramp up and down, Nuclear is even by far the worse at it, and it is the point of it, the inertia of spinning rust at high rate make those type or gas turbines very useful as they can absorb spikes before others can react, it is the point, be it nuclear or any other type of thermal energy source boiling the water, does not make any difference to that. just that for now coal is a far worse option than nuclear. and i never talked off the grid stuff, i talked about the huge stuff how do you provide electricity at night with wind and solar? either huge batteries that no one wants to build and are rather inefficient or coal/gas in your idea, or does no one use power at night in your scenario? there are a few emerging battery tech that may work but batteries have a rather finite and short life span. i just feel that everyone is destroying before thinking about the replacement....

Government PR moves should not really be taken as scientific facts... governments now that nuclear as a bad PR so build coal instead, just making the problem worse... i am saying before killing nuclear and relying on gas/coal we need to build the future that will not kill us even faster nuclear is just a very horse to beat on so everyone joins for a quick buck and easy PR and makes the future even more problematic.

to explain why i talk inertia, to spin up and down a wind turbine can take from 15 to 60 minutes while your spike is instantaneous, you need something to absorb that spike else you get brown and black outs, this is why we need either very high energy batteries doted around the place(and anyone saying high energy in a small area also talk explosion waiting to happen) or something to spin rust so that you have stored energy somewhere. you also say that the grid will cover for the deficiencies in the ability for power to be produced anywhere, only issue is that it was never built for that, you would need to transport much higher quantities of power from places where energy is produced but population is low to where it is consumed.

TL;DR: ffs peoples stop destroying before thinking of what to build, build and then destroy what was here before, we are doing things backward. and yes i will defend anything that i see a bit of good in
In the last few years green power has come a LONG way and it seems many people still think wind and solar is stuck in the 70's and 80's.


I was trying to cover both angles because they are treated different and your comments were blending the two.
Salt batteries and water batteries are not batteries in the traditional sense (though a salt battery, sodium-nickle, can be). A water battery (called pumped hydro) is a reservoir on a hill, they drain the lake reservoir for hydro power during high draw into a second reservoir, then pump it back up during low draw, Australia is already using this technology. Salt batteries are used in solar farms, they can use sodium-nickle cells or molten-salt storage, for molten salt storage they use mirrors instead of solar cells to heat pipes with salt, at really high temp salt liquifies, this can now be used to create steam and turn steam engines, just like nuclear. It retains heat for a long time so you can also store it in heated liquid form and keep generating power long after you've lost sunlight, more than enough to get through the night. Molten salt storage is operational in a few solar arrays. Sodium-nickle batteries are extremely common in industrial applications in common cell form and is often used in combination with solar and wind.

We are not killing nuclear, most of them are old with most close to 40 years old and not just in the US, the industry wants exemptions to keep their current ones operating beyond the expected lifespan (usually 50 years). The only way to do that is get the public behind it and pressure politicians to offer extensions rather than replace them with newer greener plants. A great example is the one in Scotland, it's already had two extensions on it's permit to operate beyond it's rated lifespan and it's lobbying for a third despite plenty of evidence the plant is falling apart (massive cracks in the cooling pond). These plants will lobby to stay open right up until the point they fail, either in a boom or bankruptcy. We need the current power generators but only until we can replace/retire them and that is the problem, the owners don't want to retire them and so long as we don't build replacements they will keep getting those extensions.

Politicians push coal (and nuclear) for political reasons and political reasons only, it has absolutely nothing to do with coal itself. They all know coal sucks, they know the jobs suck, they even know most of their power is no longer generated by it and that there's really not much left of the industry as a whole compared to what it once was. Coal has nothing to do with coal, it's just a dog whistle.

Spikes at the regional level do not usually happen second by second or even minute by minute and they also know when to expect them and can prepare for it, it's quite predictable, however it's not easy to control as generators have a limited range of adjustment as they have to spin at the right speed, too little power draw can actually cause it to stop generating power. This was actually why we were/are testing loosening the 60hz requirements in parts of the country as it would allow them a larger range of adjustment (this has raised hell with older electronics that require it for accuracy, clocks in particular). Wind and solar farms actually have better control over their power, you don't have one massive generator to spin up or down within a small range, this is often the cause of small short brownouts as they spin down large generators and the rest of the grid takes up the slack, with wind you have many small ones that you can tune in small increments. It's the same as maintenance, if you have 3 hydro/steam/generators and one goes down you just lost 1/3rd of your power, if a windfarm loses or shuts down a generator they lose 1/1000th. Solar is even more controlled as they can vary it not just by bank but by intensity.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 March 2021, 23:34:25 by Leslieann »
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Offline Dongulator

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 23 March 2021, 23:52:17 »
what would you rather have?
-Nuclear, proven to be the safest by far, if not mishandled by overzealous devotes or built on a seismic fail.
What makes you think it's the safest? By what metric?
One of the reasons against green power was kicking the debt down the road, nuclear power is the king at kicking a problem down the road for future generations. The only time nuclear energy is cheap and clean is when it's generating power. At any other other time from construction to shutdown it's extremely expensive and dirty, the operators who say it's so cheap and clean ignore this when discussing it, why, because they get subsidies to construct it and then they just declare the company bankrupt and walk away when it's finished. Force nuclear energy to create a trust fund, not for a disaster but post-use cleanup and waste storage and I guarantee you they will change their tune really fast regarding how cheap it is. It's only cheap because you subsidize the hell out of it before and after. By the way, I don't remember a wind farm ever threatening all of Europe, Tokyo or even a neighborhood regardless of how many mistakes were made with it.

Inertia, great!!! (by the way, these are industry stats)
70% of all new plants are renewables.
Wind is in a three way race between hydro and nuclear for 3rd place for power production. Coal (#2) has decreased 30% every year the past few years, in about 2 years, wind power will take over the #2 slot. Solar and oil are in a two way race for 6th place, though at the growth of solar it's going to pass Coal, hydro and nuclear about the time wind passes coal.

Land... Covering 10% of your roof is now enough to power most homes (even way up north) and California is considering a plan to cover aquaducts with solar panels, it will generate a lot of power while reducing evaporation, saving water at the same time. Any idea how much empty space is in the south west. Seriously, if you've never driven across it you will have a hard time comprehending it, but no one ever said it has to be on land or even flat land, we can put wind farms in the ocean, uninhabitable hillsides, almost anywhere, same for solar.


Your arguments are talking points of an industry desperate for public acceptance, the nuclear industry saw an opportunity to present themselves as a green alternative to coal  and is desperate to make it look true but it's all based on lies, half truths and outdated information. Wind and solar has changed massively in just the last few years alone yet the information nuclear presents is based on 70's technology and using the same arguments environmentalists used to push nuclear back then as a stop gap until we found something better. We found something better and no longer need it and the power industry is moving to it.

they did a study on covering swaths of land in solar panels and believe that the amount of shade this would create would actually change weather patterns. Link to article: https://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/changing-the-earths-climate-by-covering-the-deserts-with-solar-panels/

Please note: I did not read this article at all, I just saw it and it very well could be click bait.

I believe a solution would just to cover house with enough solar for heat/internet/whatever and same with buildings + backup power from normal means. There is definitely a solution to climate change and how we're destroying the planet, problem is implementation and "money". If we take money out of the equation and humanity just did the thing for free and just for the good of humanity it could be solved.

But this will never happen. If your even remotely concerned about climate change, I would suggest getting active about it. If you're interested in more details on how to get active, feel free to pm me.
 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 01:40:05 »
they did a study on covering swaths of land in solar panels and believe that the amount of shade this would create would actually change weather patterns.
A one size fits all is not ideal, especially solar.
If you notice two of the sunniest states, California and Texas both have HUGE swaths of wind turbines rather than huge swaths of solar panels. Each has it's place and even then it may not solve everything, but they can certainly kill off a LOT of the older high pollution plants we currently use. It doesn't have to kill all of them.

There is a metric f*ckton of F.U.D. around solar and wind, especially wind, it's absolutely insane and that shows just how scared the older industries are of them.
I've even heard it claimed wind power has killed more people than nuclear because the workers fall from them all the time, as if someone not strapping himself in is somehow equivalent to Fukushima and Chernobyl (and completely ignores everything else associated with those accidents).

We don't need a perfect replacement for every power plant, the world can live with a few coal and gas plants, the problem is too many people purposely make it into an argument of all or nothing because it gives them excuse to do nothing at all.


As for nuclear, I'd rather keep using coal plants than switch to nuclear. Yes, coal is bad and we're running out of time, but nuclear is just kicking that football down the road in more ways than just storage and cleanup. It's not a stop-gap. What happens when we have cheap gasoline, research into electric and hydrogen and even interest in high MPG cars comes to a screeching halt. Nuclear operators know so long as we have cheap energy and don't have to think about it no one will invest in alternatives. How do you think they sold people on nuclear in the 60's and 70's, it was a green alternative to coal, which is why environmentalists got behind it at the time. 40-50 years on here we are again and they offer the same stop-gap solution, why, because they know it will stick. The same as cars, whenever gas prices go up they start talking hydrogen and electric and as soon as the price returns to somewhat normal everyone goes right back to driving their big gas guzzlers.

Let's fix the problem.
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Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 02:43:36 »
A one size fits all is not ideal, especially solar.
If you notice two of the sunniest states, California and Texas both have HUGE swaths of wind turbines rather than huge swaths of solar panels. Each has it's place and even then it may not solve everything, but they can certainly kill off a LOT of the older high pollution plants we currently use. It doesn't have to kill all of them.
yes, wind comes from the temperature delta between the air cooled by the ground and heated by the sun, so the sunniest the more wind, and wind power is far cleaner and cheaper than photovoltaic
There is a metric f*ckton of F.U.D. around solar and wind, especially wind, it's absolutely insane and that shows just how scared the older industries are of them.
I've even heard it claimed wind power has killed more people than nuclear because the workers fall from them all the time, as if someone not strapping himself in is somehow equivalent to Fukushima and Chernobyl (and completely ignores everything else associated with those accidents).
I do not really understand the fear of them either, some very early ones did spin too fast and disintegrate but i think there was a total of one or 2 that did that ever, so not big. although if you only count worker deaths wind has killed more than nuclear for sure, and when weighted for power production over time wind seems rather dangerous, we will see as we go if they can stop falling off of them in the future...
We don't need a perfect replacement for every power plant, the world can live with a few coal and gas plants, the problem is too many people purposely make it into an argument of all or nothing because it gives them excuse to do nothing at all.
We absolutely need to find a way to replace all the thermal sources we got, coal is the worse we can get for everything and with the FUD around nuclear we are not getting back into it, no one will even want to make them safer right now. so we need an alternative that is not going to destroy us all in the next 20 years, oh and if you say electric cars are green and then use coal for electricity production then welcome to the very hypocritical world of green politics, an old clapped out gas engine will be more efficient than your electric car there
As for nuclear, I'd rather keep using coal plants than switch to nuclear. Yes, coal is bad and we're running out of time, but nuclear is just kicking that football down the road in more ways than just storage and cleanup. It's not a stop-gap. What happens when we have cheap gasoline, research into electric and hydrogen and even interest in high MPG cars comes to a screeching halt. Nuclear operators know so long as we have cheap energy and don't have to think about it no one will invest in alternatives. How do you think they sold people on nuclear in the 60's and 70's, it was a green alternative to coal, which is why environmentalists got behind it at the time. 40-50 years on here we are again and they offer the same stop-gap solution, why, because they know it will stick. The same as cars, whenever gas prices go up they start talking hydrogen and electric and as soon as the price returns to somewhat normal everyone goes right back to driving their big gas guzzlers.

Let's fix the problem.
No we should not switch to nuclear but we should also stop replacing them by coal plants, and yes nuclear is kicking that ball a few century at most, but we do not have 50 years on coal, and electric cars are only ever environmentally friendly if you forget about they construction, short lifespan and energy production... although being in America for you that may not be as true, here most of your cars could not even fit on our roads, the biggest engines available are often 2L and most commons are 1 to 1.4L, so maybe with half the population driving big F150 with 5L V8 the calculation would be different. Still at the moment the only way to have a green electric is to do a conversion and have a way to make sure you actually use green energy in it, what i am saying is that we are doing everything backward, making everything worse in the long run and giving ourselves a pat on the back seeing how good of a job we did at doing nothing...
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 08:00:01 »

As for nuclear, I'd rather keep using coal plants than switch to nuclear. Yes, coal is bad and we're running out of time, but nuclear is just kicking that football down the road in more ways than just storage and cleanup. It's not a stop-gap.

Nooq is not kicking anything down the road,  They're Toxic NOW, every moment anyone lives closer to a nooq plant, they're much closer to leukemia than someone who lives farther away.

The pollution from nooq is easy to ignore because it's tasteless and invisible.  But it IS happening, global sperm count has been down post 1945.

It was the same problem with Leaded gasoline.

Offline phinix

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 09:49:12 »
Guys, your discussion here is so interesting, you are pulling me away from my work (working from home) :)
I learnt more about green energy and the state of it in present day than ever before :D

Please continue :)
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Offline yui

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 10:29:35 »

As for nuclear, I'd rather keep using coal plants than switch to nuclear. Yes, coal is bad and we're running out of time, but nuclear is just kicking that football down the road in more ways than just storage and cleanup. It's not a stop-gap.

Nooq is not kicking anything down the road,  They're Toxic NOW, every moment anyone lives closer to a nooq plant, they're much closer to leukemia than someone who lives farther away.

The pollution from nooq is easy to ignore because it's tasteless and invisible.  But it IS happening, global sperm count has been down post 1945.

It was the same problem with Leaded gasoline.

i can only talk about regulation in France, but i live in a place that has more natural radiation than what is allowed to come out of a nuclear plant... i would not expect American regulation to be much more relaxed
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 12:21:20 »
i can only talk about regulation in France, but i live in a place that has more natural radiation than what is allowed to come out of a nuclear plant... i would not expect American regulation to be much more relaxed

That is a big mis-attribution error that the industry has used for a long time to pursuade the public that there is a SAFE quantity of radiation.

When they say back ground radiation, they're counting multiple types.   You can have gamma, alpha, beta, neutron.    Alpha and Beta can be blocked by clothing/ concrete/ steel,   But Gamma and Neutron radiation penetrates just about everything.

The largest factor they ignore when concerning background is the hot-particles. These are bomb/reactor material in the form of micro-glass beads/ metals.   This is physically just dust, but you breath it in, different ball game,  they immediately cause localized cancer cell formation.

So you can have 2 places with the same background radiation count, but radically different lvls of DANGER/ cellular damage.

Again Yui, you need to go back and relearn this stuff before making comments, your understanding is too superficial to even have an opinion. I say this respectfully, as I am aware you have the capacity unravel the inconsistencies for yourself.


Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 22:36:03 »
Nooq is not kicking anything down the road,  They're Toxic NOW, every moment anyone lives closer to a nooq plant, they're much closer to leukemia than someone who lives farther away.
I only meant in terms of replacing coal, it's kicking the can down the road to promote their own interest.


i can only talk about regulation in France, but i live in a place that has more natural radiation than what is allowed to come out of a nuclear plant... i would not expect American regulation to be much more relaxed
Plants regularly have to vent off radioactive gasses and such to atmosphere not just in an emergency (I wasn't even aware of this until today), it's not much but yes, they do it on a regular basis (sometimes daily) and is regulated, doesn't mean it's entirely safe, governments have a habit of letting things slide if it keeps people happy.

What are the regulations when they have an issue and need to vent to avoid a big boom? They vent, all of it.
It's happened 22 times that we know of.
That's what happened at 3 Mile Island in 1979 and we STILL don't know how much was vented, for years they refuted it was even a meltdown. 22 is not a huge number but keep in mind that's just the ones we know of. Each of those could have been another Fukushima, Chernobyl or Kyshtym. Most people haven't even heard of that last one but it ranks up there with the other two on the disaster scale, it was only when Fukushima dragged on that it replaced Kyshtym as the 2nd worst nuclear disaster.



Here's a nice long list of other accidents, coincidentally, France has the distinction of being latest entry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_and_radiation_accidents_and_incidents#Nuclear_plant_accidents

There's also been nearly 1300 known terrorist attempts to obtain material, this includes multiple attacks on plants.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 22:38:29 »
Found it!
Here's another list of big accidents and the international rating scale used to determine how bad they are.

There is way more on this list than you would think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Nuclear_Event_Scale
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Excellent Article on F00k00shima
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 25 March 2021, 08:44:09 »
Found it!
Here's another list of big accidents and the international rating scale used to determine how bad they are.

There is way more on this list than you would think.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Nuclear_Event_Scale


Problem remains, because it's tied to the Military industrial complex,  they run with no real oversight.

For example, Jpn actively suppress their doctors on reporting r4diat1on induced sicknesses,  Everything that goes on the insurance form MUST be (induced by stress/ hysteria).  Despite 3000% increase in thyroid cancers in children.   They will refuse to reimburse payments unless the labels are changed.

This is a terrible way to steer public opinion, because it allows the mess to continue,  what's losing face in the international community when up to 1/4 of your population is now being heavily poisoned ?