Cherry Profile VS OEM Profile

[Hyde]

Out of all the posts I've read so far, seems that all the people who have tried both prefer Cherry profile?

Is there anyone out there that prefer OEM over Cherry?  Otherwise should we conclude that Cherry profile is better?

[TotalChaos]

I have tried both.  I prefer 12mm profile better because in the world we live in, 12mm is healthier.

12mm profile allows u to install crashpads or O-rings while still maintaining a long travel stroke.

Until someone invents the same thing for those short 6mm Cherry lowrider keycaps, the 12mm profile will continue to be healthier.  According to what I have read it is not mechanically possible to invent something for the short 6mm keycaps, there is just no room, you end up drastically reducing the travel distance.

[silat]

I have tried both.  I prefer 12mm profile better because in the world we live in, 12mm is healthier.

12mm profile allows u to install crashpads or O-rings while still maintaining a long travel stroke.

Until someone invents the same thing for those short 6mm Cherry lowrider keycaps, the 12mm profile will continue to be healthier.  According to what I have read it is not mechanically possible to invent something for the short 6mm keycaps, there is just no room, you end up drastically reducing the travel distance.

So the 12mm is the OEM?

[TotalChaos]

The term "OEM Profile" is meaningless.  There are multiple OEM's and they have free will and can use any profile they want whenever they want.

We aren't really talking about "profiles", we are just talking about "height".  Profile is something way more complicated.

The OEM's we are talking about happen to be using keycaps that are around 11.8mm tall.  So ppl say 12mm.

Cherry is an OEM and their keycaps are around 6mm tall.

So that is the difference that we are talking about.

Signature Plastics makes keycaps and for some reason a lot of ppl order their 8mm height a lot.

So the 3 main keycap heights are
6mm Cherry
8mm Signature Plastics (but they also make the other heights as well)
12mm Used by many companies.

[reverkiller]

I read somewhere that someone called what we call OEM profile (WASD, Filco, Leopold, Ducky standard caps) could be called Asian profile. I think that leaves the common profiles as: Cherry, SP, Asian

[sherryton]

I use to not care.  I just liked how the keys looked, then I tried Cherry keys...

[jeroplane]

I don't think we'll stop using the term "OEM" to describe the keys by the manufacturers that reverkiller mentioned. It should be noted, however, that Leopold's keys are closer to Cherry profile, so they are not OEM profile.

But yes, the only people who I have seen prefer OEM profile are those who have not yet tried Cherry profile. It is easily far more comfortable to type on, but as with everything around here it is up to personal preference.

[IvanIvanovich]

Well it depend what Leopold you are talking. Only the newer 700 which are still not widely available have more like Cherry profile, the older series have the tall profile key.
Cherry designed them that way for reason, they are simply the best on their switch. End of the story. 'OEM' key are also poorer quality, so they loose again.

[rowdy]

I prefer Cherry profile.

[jeroplane]

Well it depend what Leopold you are talking. Only the newer 700 which are still not widely available have more like Cherry profile, the older series have the tall profile key.
Cherry designed them that way for reason, they are simply the best on their switch. End of the story. 'OEM' key are also poorer quality, so they loose again.

Ah yeah, forgot about the earlier models as I haven't personally had experience with them. Thanks for the correction

[rek55]

Yeah I feel like I would prefer OEM. I have always hated laptop keyboarods. I like long travel time, and it seems like the advantage to a non-linear cherry switch is that you can stop pressing down before you bottom out... but that's a lot harder to do if the key is shorter.

[Hyde]

So the 3 main keycap heights are
6mm Cherry
8mm Signature Plastics (but they also make the other heights as well)
12mm Used by many companies.

I thought Cherry profile are 10mm no?

According to the 3rd picture this look like 10mm http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,cherrymxkeys&pid=cds_redesc

Also it seems that again people prefer Cherry profile by a landslide.  I guess I'll give another update when I get mine 

[rek55]

I thought Cherry profile are 10mm no?

According to the 3rd picture this look like 10mm http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,cherrymxkeys&pid=cds_redesc

Also it seems that again people prefer Cherry profile by a landslide.  I guess I'll give another update when I get mine 

10mm isn't so bad. I actually didn't like the feel of OEM profile with o-rings though, so I don't know. I hope to get a set of cherry/SP profile's at some point just so I can see if I like them. In the meantime I can only really replace the number and F-row keys (because I don't think the profile on those matters as much).

[rknize]

Being a buckling spring guy, I've always preferred the look of the taller keys.  However the difference is really small.  Take a look at row 5 on a Vortex Race.  Now that's tall!

What are called "OEM" around here, the kind you find on so many keyboards, do have a different feel compared real Cherry DS caps.  Personally, I feel that the difference largely comes from the texture and thickness of the plastic.  "OEM" caps usually have a smooth surface and thin walls, whereas Cherry caps are textured (at least they start that way) and are quite thick.  "OEM" caps themselves also vary.  For example, the WASD I am typing on now has the exact same profile caps as the QFR next to it.  Even the molding marks under the caps are the same.  Yet the WASD has thicker caps than the QFR (~1.1mm vs ~0.80mm) and the feel and sound difference is noticeable.  Add o-rings and the sound and feel change again.

So it's hard to say which is better.  I definitely prefer Cherry DS caps over the QFR caps.  But thicker WASD or Filco caps with o-rings?  I dunno...the difference is more subtle and so I can more easily ignore it.

[tp4tissue]

I would say it depends on your hand...

If you have short fingers you'd be just fine with 6mm profiles.... However if you have longer fingers.. shorter profile will feel cramped because your middle finger would feel like it's hitting bottom way before the other fingers.

This is the same with piano.. shorter travel means a cramp feel.

So now there's another problem, as I assume some of you are still growing... which means you may eventually prefer deeper travel.

[Polymer]

Pretty sure Cherry Profile for the tall keys (esc row) is 10mm and not 6mm.  I think 6mm is some other type of Cherry keycap...

[phinix]

Being a buckling spring guy, I've always preferred the look of the taller keys.  However the difference is really small.  Take a look at row 5 on a Vortex Race.  Now that's tall!

What are called "OEM" around here, the kind you find on so many keyboards, do have a different feel compared real Cherry DS caps.  Personally, I feel that the difference largely comes from the texture and thickness of the plastic.  "OEM" caps usually have a smooth surface and thin walls, whereas Cherry caps are textured (at least they start that way) and are quite thick.  "OEM" caps themselves also vary.  For example, the WASD I am typing on now has the exact same profile caps as the QFR next to it.  Even the molding marks under the caps are the same.  Yet the WASD has thicker caps than the QFR (~1.1mm vs ~0.80mm) and the feel and sound difference is noticeable.  Add o-rings and the sound and feel change again.

So it's hard to say which is better.  I definitely prefer Cherry DS caps over the QFR caps.  But thicker WASD or Filco caps with o-rings?  I dunno...the difference is more subtle and so I can more easily ignore it.

Hi. I was thinking of buying some key caps from WASD for my QFR.
So they are exactly the same, only thing is they are thicker? So when you typing, I'm guessing the sound of them are a bit lower or sth like that?
Would you consider putting o-rings on them?

[esoomenona]

I think it might have something to do with the look and feel of the Cherry caps more than the height. Cherry caps could be as tall as OEM probably, and would most likely still just look and feel better to type on to many people.

[TotalChaos]

6mm is what I read on some keycap website somewhere (probably more than 1).  And I saw pics that made that measurement sound about right (assuming the height of the other keycaps was given its true height).

The thing to remember is you can't judge these things by looking at one side of one key.

The profiles we are discussing in this thread are not logical scientific profiles.  They are screwball profiles.  Every row of keys is a different height.  Every row is a different shape. Every row is a different angle.  That is why I said the so-called OEM keycaps are "about 11.8mm"  because every row is different and the measurement used is just some kind of average.

How do u even judge the height?  The height of any 1 keycap is totally different in screwball profile depending if you measure the front of the keycap or the back of the keycap.    Some rows have a slight difference, other rows have quite a pronounced difference in height from once side to the other.  Its crazy.

I am trying to front-print keys and every row has a different amount of space on the front of the key.  Its annoying.

[MissMurd3r84]

My Leopold keys are 1CM tall (only measured a number key)

[Polymer]

6mm is what I read on some keycap website somewhere (probably more than 1).  And I saw pics that made that measurement sound about right (assuming the height of the other keycaps was given its true height).

The thing to remember is you can't judge these things by looking at one side of one key.

The profiles we are discussing in this thread are not logical scientific profiles.  They are screwball profiles.  Every row of keys is a different height.  Every row is a different shape. Every row is a different angle.  That is why I said the so-called OEM keycaps are "about 11.8mm"  because every row is different and the measurement used is just some kind of average.

How do u even judge the height?  The height of any 1 keycap is totally different in screwball profile depending if you measure the front of the keycap or the back of the keycap.    Some rows have a slight difference, other rows have quite a pronounced difference in height from once side to the other.  Its crazy.

I am trying to front-print keys and every row has a different amount of space on the front of the key.  Its annoying.

Yeah, they're all curved..but the 12mm is based on the highest part of the ESC key row on OEM so the only logical comparison would be the same key, same measured part which is 10mm on the Cherry row.

I think across the board, they're all about 2mm shorter...

[TotalChaos]

6mm is what I read on some keycap website somewhere (probably more than 1).  And I saw pics that made that measurement sound about right (assuming the height of the other keycaps was given its true height).

The thing to remember is you can't judge these things by looking at one side of one key.

The profiles we are discussing in this thread are not logical scientific profiles.  They are screwball profiles.  Every row of keys is a different height.  Every row is a different shape. Every row is a different angle.  That is why I said the so-called OEM keycaps are "about 11.8mm"  because every row is different and the measurement used is just some kind of average.

How do u even judge the height?  The height of any 1 keycap is totally different in screwball profile depending if you measure the front of the keycap or the back of the keycap.    Some rows have a slight difference, other rows have quite a pronounced difference in height from once side to the other.  Its crazy.

I am trying to front-print keys and every row has a different amount of space on the front of the key.  Its annoying.

Yeah, they're all curved..but the 12mm is based on the highest part of the ESC key row on OEM so the only logical comparison would be the same key, same measured part which is 10mm on the Cherry row.

I think across the board, they're all about 2mm shorter...

Makes perfect sense to me.  I never understood how Cherry profile could be 6mm shorter than "OEM Profile".  It never made sense to me.  I guess the Internetz fooled me.  )

A 2mm difference makes a lot more sense.

And that would make SP Profile = 9mm
I don't have any SP profile keycaps to measure.

[MissMurd3r84]

Weirdly enough, the SP profile key is 1CM tall as well..

[rknize]

Hi. I was thinking of buying some key caps from WASD for my QFR.
So they are exactly the same, only thing is they are thicker? So when you typing, I'm guessing the sound of them are a bit lower or sth like that?
Would you consider putting o-rings on them?

They appear to be exactly the same profile, shape, and texture to me.  That's why novelty caps from WASD are right at home on a keyboard with these "OEM" caps (unlike the SP DS caps, which are more like Cherry).

The sound depends a lot on the switch and a bit on the mount style (plate vs PCB) and also the keyboard case and feet.  Also, the feel of the cap as your finger comes in contact.  For example, the loud snap of a blue switch resonates the cap differently than the lego-like clack when you bottom out on any cherry switch.  In my comparison, the QFR and the WASD V1 both have reds.  So I am referring to the bottom-out noise and the finger-feel.  The QFR cap, especially the extra red W-A-S-D keys, have a very light plasticy feeling to them.  My other QFR with greens really brings out the hollow sound of the thin key cap.  The WASD are less hollow and light feeling.

I have o-rings on a different cap set for the WASD V1.  I really like o-rings on reds.  It makes the keyboard about as quiet as Cherry MX can get.  The slight bounce at the bottom feels nice with the soft spring and slightly-reduced travel.

[phinix]

Hi. I was thinking of buying some key caps from WASD for my QFR.
So they are exactly the same, only thing is they are thicker? So when you typing, I'm guessing the sound of them are a bit lower or sth like that?
Would you consider putting o-rings on them?

They appear to be exactly the same profile, shape, and texture to me.  That's why novelty caps from WASD are right at home on a keyboard with these "OEM" caps (unlike the SP DS caps, which are more like Cherry).

The sound depends a lot on the switch and a bit on the mount style (plate vs PCB) and also the keyboard case and feet.  Also, the feel of the cap as your finger comes in contact.  For example, the loud snap of a blue switch resonates the cap differently than the lego-like clack when you bottom out on any cherry switch.  In my comparison, the QFR and the WASD V1 both have reds.  So I am referring to the bottom-out noise and the finger-feel.  The QFR cap, especially the extra red W-A-S-D keys, have a very light plasticy feeling to them.  My other QFR with greens really brings out the hollow sound of the thin key cap.  The WASD are less hollow and light feeling.

I have o-rings on a different cap set for the WASD V1.  I really like o-rings on reds.  It makes the keyboard about as quiet as Cherry MX can get.  The slight bounce at the bottom feels nice with the soft spring and slightly-reduced travel.

OK. So to sum up - would you say that QFR with WASD caps is better then original caps from CM? Overall....

[absyrd]

I would not consider WASD caps better than the stock QFR caps unless you absolutely cannot stand the font.

[rknize]

Hi. I was thinking of buying some key caps from WASD for my QFR.
So they are exactly the same, only thing is they are thicker? So when you typing, I'm guessing the sound of them are a bit lower or sth like that?
Would you consider putting o-rings on them?

They appear to be exactly the same profile, shape, and texture to me.  That's why novelty caps from WASD are right at home on a keyboard with these "OEM" caps (unlike the SP DS caps, which are more like Cherry).

The sound depends a lot on the switch and a bit on the mount style (plate vs PCB) and also the keyboard case and feet.  Also, the feel of the cap as your finger comes in contact.  For example, the loud snap of a blue switch resonates the cap differently than the lego-like clack when you bottom out on any cherry switch.  In my comparison, the QFR and the WASD V1 both have reds.  So I am referring to the bottom-out noise and the finger-feel.  The QFR cap, especially the extra red W-A-S-D keys, have a very light plasticy feeling to them.  My other QFR with greens really brings out the hollow sound of the thin key cap.  The WASD are less hollow and light feeling.

I have o-rings on a different cap set for the WASD V1.  I really like o-rings on reds.  It makes the keyboard about as quiet as Cherry MX can get.  The slight bounce at the bottom feels nice with the soft spring and slightly-reduced travel.

OK. So to sum up - would you say that QFR with WASD caps is better then original caps from CM? Overall....

They should be a small improvement, but it won't be huge.  I wouldn't buy a set of WASD caps for just that reason.

[phinix]

Hi. I was thinking of buying some key caps from WASD for my QFR.
So they are exactly the same, only thing is they are thicker? So when you typing, I'm guessing the sound of them are a bit lower or sth like that?
Would you consider putting o-rings on them?

They appear to be exactly the same profile, shape, and texture to me.  That's why novelty caps from WASD are right at home on a keyboard with these "OEM" caps (unlike the SP DS caps, which are more like Cherry).

The sound depends a lot on the switch and a bit on the mount style (plate vs PCB) and also the keyboard case and feet.  Also, the feel of the cap as your finger comes in contact.  For example, the loud snap of a blue switch resonates the cap differently than the lego-like clack when you bottom out on any cherry switch.  In my comparison, the QFR and the WASD V1 both have reds.  So I am referring to the bottom-out noise and the finger-feel.  The QFR cap, especially the extra red W-A-S-D keys, have a very light plasticy feeling to them.  My other QFR with greens really brings out the hollow sound of the thin key cap.  The WASD are less hollow and light feeling.

I have o-rings on a different cap set for the WASD V1.  I really like o-rings on reds.  It makes the keyboard about as quiet as Cherry MX can get.  The slight bounce at the bottom feels nice with the soft spring and slightly-reduced travel.

OK. So to sum up - would you say that QFR with WASD caps is better then original caps from CM? Overall....

They should be a small improvement, but it won't be huge.  I wouldn't buy a set of WASD caps for just that reason.

I'm only after retro look/colors. I never tried other mechanical keyboards before, my QFR is my first one.

[IvanIvanovich]

Why settle for retro colors when you can just have actual retro that is better quality and possibly cheaper?

[rknize]

I'm not sure what you mean by retro, but you are looking for a traditional 80s look and nice feel, you might consider one of feng's sets.  They are thick PBT and the "WYSE" set has a retro-80s look:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.0

[phinix]

I'm not sure what you mean by retro, but you are looking for a traditional 80s look and nice feel, you might consider one of feng's sets.  They are thick PBT and the "WYSE" set has a retro-80s look:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37999.0

I would prefer colors like these beige sets:


or this


That WYSE has grey/white, when I would prefer beige/white sets:(
Plus I need UK ISO set...

[rknize]

I see.  Yes, ISO is a problem.  I would suggest ascaii's recycled Cherry doubleshots, otherwise.  Maybe try a WTB ad at deskthority.net?

[IvanIvanovich]

I would advise you to keep an eye out for Cherry G80/G81-3000HAG, or 3000H**GB. They don't come up too often and usually get more on the expensive side as GB layout is harder to come by. If you are after the look more than anything you can find German ones for really cheap quite often, while having different legend it will match the physical layout 100%. If you don't mind that compromise replace the G or GB with D or DE when searching ebay.

[Calcifar]

phinix, what is that white, flat keyboard in your second pic ?

Those keycaps look exactly like what i'm after.

[IvanIvanovich]

That's a G84, it uses ML switch which are totally different to MX.

[Calcifar]

aw, shame.

thanks for the heads up!

[TotalChaos]

6mm is what I read on some keycap website somewhere (probably more than 1).  And I saw pics that made that measurement sound about right (assuming the height of the other keycaps was given its true height).

The thing to remember is you can't judge these things by looking at one side of one key.

The profiles we are discussing in this thread are not logical scientific profiles.  They are screwball profiles.  Every row of keys is a different height.  Every row is a different shape. Every row is a different angle.  That is why I said the so-called OEM keycaps are "about 11.8mm"  because every row is different and the measurement used is just some kind of average.

How do u even judge the height?  The height of any 1 keycap is totally different in screwball profile depending if you measure the front of the keycap or the back of the keycap.    Some rows have a slight difference, other rows have quite a pronounced difference in height from once side to the other.  Its crazy.

I am trying to front-print keys and every row has a different amount of space on the front of the key.  Its annoying.

Yeah, they're all curved..but the 12mm is based on the highest part of the ESC key row on OEM so the only logical comparison would be the same key, same measured part which is 10mm on the Cherry row.

I think across the board, they're all about 2mm shorter...

I was going thru my 100 tabs that I had opened over the last couple of months to close down things I didn't want when suddenly I stumbled upon some top secret internet documentz smuggled out of Cherry Gmbh International Headquarters by a team of elite Websurfer Keyboard Scientists.

According to this document Cherry Profile is officially 7mm but is actually 6.9mm.

Cherry Profile is measured according to the front of a key from row 3, the ASDF row, 6.9mm.

The real-life ESC row is 2.9mm taller (9.8mm).  This explains why MissMurd3r84 measured 10mm on her Cherry keycaps ESC row.  That row is fairly flat.

The official ESC row from this document is around 5mm taller (12mm) but nobody uses that in real life that I am aware of.  Real life keyboards just repeat the number row profile again for the ESC row rather than making the ESC row be taller than the number row.

http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0146/0900766b8014611b.pdf

Anyone wants to measure the height of an SP or OEM keycap from ASDF row?

Don't forget, its the front height that counts. 


Keyboard Science FTW!

[Jmneuv]

Edit: seems i got myself into a vintage A-profile trap, since that is what i'm talking about here;
the part about cherry profile caps bottoming out on top of the switch casing as opposed to asian/oem profile on the bottom may still hold true though (further experiments ahead);

One interesting thing to note about cherry profile: while overall the keys are significantly lower than "Asian" profile, the modifier row is actually slightly taller. In particular it's more steep (the image is slightly down perspective, it's about 0.6mm difference in the middle of the tall end).



For that reason i will probably use cherry profile with asian modifiers and a cherry spacebar (i hate my current spacebar).

Also i compared the stem lengths of the mod keys: the cherry is 3.8mm, the asian is 4.4mm
that's measured from stem end to strengthening fins;
This seemingly (preliminary testing only) changes the bottom out stop point:
Asian profile mod keys bottom out in the switch bottom, while cherry touch on the switch top.
That would also mean that o-rings on asian profile represent a switch from bottom to top contact.

Edit: see post #41 by lysol for specifics

[TotalChaos]

Thank you for your measurements!  You have advanced keyboard science!

[esoomenona]

I think what I've seen, IIRC, different Cherry sets have different heights for the bottom rows/angles for the bottom rows.

If I remember, I will try to get a picture of this when I get home later tonight.

[Jmneuv]

that's very interesting, looking forward to pics;

i measured (am using) a doubleshot cherry set (think it's thick abs) i salvaged from a G81-3081 MY board (prolly early 90s, not good at those guesses yet)

Actually i ordered a new G80-3000 for exactly that kind of 'research'.

[IvanIvanovich]

You have old Cherry A profile modifier, which was dropped a LONG time ago. Now bottom row is B profile same as shift row. There also used to be F profile which was taller than the numeric row sometimes used on the function row.

specification diagram from Cherry.

[Jmneuv]

Oh! damn, so educational.
I never came across this little detail before, thanks for clarifying.

Which boards could i use then to source doubleshots without this 'problem'?

[IvanIvanovich]

For DE, I suggest look for G80-1501HAD, they pop up for cheap on ebay.de pretty often.

[Jmneuv]

Excellent, thank you.

New measurements are in:

Anyone wants to measure the height of an SP or OEM keycap from ASDF row?

front height of oem caps-lock in the middle: 7.0mm

stem length shift-row: oem 4.3mm // cherry vintage (shouldn't make a difference here)(B-row) 3.8mm

[Saturn]

Show Image

don't mean to threadjack, but i love that set.   where can i get it?

edit: just read the rest of the thread, but what i meant was, has anyone ever done a group buy for anything like that?  like SP doubleshots that completely duplicate the look (colors, font) of cherry doubleshots?

[rknize]

Yes, there is/was a cherry font replication project that was in the works.  Duplicating the legends is meticulous work, but hashbaz was making progress.  The project was shelved when GMK, the new owner of the original cherry DS equipment, was discovered.  A group buy will hopefully come out of that.

For that particular set, the main set of keys are harvested from used Cherry boards.  The modifiers are not sized correctly for modern boards, so a so-called "moogle" kit is used to replace the mods and other keys of the same color.

[IvanIvanovich]

You can find Cherry black on white/beige or grey sets with 1.25 mods if you are very lucky, or have a lot of money to spend. They did make them, just not as many for as long as the sets with 1.5 mods and/or those that have them don't sell them as often.
Interest check for new Cherry/GMK sets has started, have a look here.

[rknize]

This particular scheme is available right now.  Keep an eye on this thread:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-ansi-keys-first-round3-sets-available-t568.html

[Saturn]

thanks for the great info, rknize, lysol

This particular scheme is available right now.  Keep an eye on this thread:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/cherry-ds-ansi-keys-first-round3-sets-available-t568.html

i'd really like a new set and the new ones there are a bit above my price point (though i understand the price, of course)

most likely i will wait on the group buy