Ergo Clear vs Topre

[Jocelyn]

If you don't get one by the time I get to Orlando, I'll buy one and let you borrow it for a week

Show Image

That 660C??? I know how much you love those 60%/like 60% layout :P I'm so tempted to rob my neighborhood and buy one of those :P

Yes, but I'm going to be patient and wait until there's a white or gray version with blanks (the laser edged caps are meh). The only question left is will I sell my MX boards and go all Topre after I get it   :p

[VesperSAINT]

Yes, but I'm going to be patient and wait until there's a white or gray version with blanks (the laser edged caps are meh). The only question left is will I sell my MX boards and go all Topre after I get it   

I'm actually kind of scared I might end up like that too... and ma'am, like always, I love your taste. White/grey version is definitely what I would go with too. Worst case with MX, I'll probably at least keep my Reds just for gaming though

I also haven't tried any captivate switches but I get the feeling I'll like 55g over 45g. Hopefully they'll release a 55g.

[tp4tissue]

Yes, but I'm going to be patient and wait until there's a white or gray version with blanks (the laser edged caps are meh). The only question left is will I sell my MX boards and go all Topre after I get it   

I'm actually kind of scared I might end up like that too... and ma'am, like always, I love your taste. White/grey version is definitely what I would go with too. Worst case with MX, I'll probably at least keep my Reds just for gaming though

I also haven't tried any captivate switches but I get the feeling I'll like 55g over 45g. Hopefully they'll release a 55g.

Get an ergo dox...  you won't ever have to look at topre until they make an ergodox topre, which is 3-5 years out.

I've decided never to buy another staggered layout keyboard.. 

[VesperSAINT]

Get an ergo dox...  you won't ever have to look at topre until they make an ergodox topre, which is 3-5 years out.

I've decided never to buy another staggered layout keyboard.. 

Just realized one of my QFR's will have a phantom plate anyway so it might end up being an all-in-one MX keyboard with different switches ready for hot swapping )

[Michael]

The only question left is will I sell my MX boards and go all Topre after I get it   

[TheQsanity]

Ergodox sucks for gaming unless you plan to use only one hand.

[Jagriff]

Ergodox sucks for gaming unless you plan to use only one hand.

With the amount of keys accessible to the one hand (along with the ability to have numerous layered keys), I don't see why you'd even want to use the other side of the keyboard.

Perhaps I'm underestimating the amount of keys that you'd want for a MMO, but for FPS games and starcraft, one hand is plenty.

[sth]

Makes sense to me; I've always said that you should buy an HHKB for it's portability and layout. The Topre switches are just a bonus 

oh well then let me buy a hhk-lite and trade you for a typeS

[002]

Makes sense to me; I've always said that you should buy an HHKB for it's portability and layout. The Topre switches are just a bonus 

oh well then let me buy a hhk-lite and trade you for a typeS

Nope the HHKB layout is not for me - that's why I'm selling mine
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42587

[HolidaySHRIMP]

Got my KMAC with ergo clears. It feels very mechanical and grainy when the contact happens. I really like it. I still love topre too. After I buy an SSK I will have the holy trinity complete!

[Michael]

Got my KMAC with ergo clears. It feels very mechanical and grainy when the contact happens. I really like it. I still love topre too. After I buy an SSK I will have the holy trinity complete!

You forgot Alps.

[HolidaySHRIMP]

Got my KMAC with ergo clears. It feels very mechanical and grainy when the contact happens. I really like it. I still love topre too. After I buy an SSK I will have the holy trinity complete!

You forgot Alps.

Not interested. Hehe

[Glod]

Ergodox sucks for gaming unless you plan to use only one hand.

lol, there are like 10 layers you can make with the massdrop configurator, utilizing one hand is not impossible, i came to the revelation of mapping qwerty on another layer to 67890 is very useful in gaming

---

I am still waiting on those clears from prof! made a huge mistake not getting clears from massdrop. Holding off on building ErgoDox #2 until i try Ergo Clear and Lubed Ergo clear. It doesn't sound like they will be my answer though because i have come to the realization recently that i like clicky tactile switches like blues and whites and ergo whites the most and that i wasted my time with reds and browns.

i like the bump on topre though. clicky topre anyone?

[iri]

The only reason Topre folk try to spread the gospel is because Topre is honestly that much better than Cherry and we want others to know. In every way better.

no.

[Jocelyn]

The only reason Topre folk try to spread the gospel is because Topre is honestly that much better than Cherry and we want others to know. In every way better.

no.

Agreed iri. I'll know a little more about my own preferences soon when WFD's Leopold arrives, but it's subjective and almost ridiculous to say one is better than the other for everyone.

[Macsmasher]

Agreed, my Type-S space has far less rattle to it. They've also added those little landing pads on the HHKB spacebar. You'd need to slam it fairly hard to contact them, but it's a nice touch which isn't on the RF boards.

Part of the issue on the RF is that the stabilizer tabs don't lock in firmly enough. If you use something like the thick EK "mech lube" on these it temporarily resolves much of the spacebar noise.

Sorry everybody. I've been dealing with some stuff at home and haven't been here for a few weeks.

My 87U silent spacebar drives me nuts. I have to put Mechlube in it constantly so I don't have to listen to it. It sounds as bad or worse than this...

I tried landing pads and Mechlube. Nothing has fixed the issue. However, my 87U 55g uni and HHKB Pro2 non-silent have no problems. (Love my 55g RF btw. Hardly touch my HHKB Pro2. I just use it for a change in my day. fwiw, I haven't touched a Cherry board since last year. I have blues, browns and reds. It's like typing on gravel after switching to Topre switches.)

In fact, my 87U variable silent spacebar was so bad, I gave it to my son. He's in college, so obviously it didn't go to waste. (What college kid would complain about an $310 keyboard.) But had I kept it, I would've send it back to EK. The spacebar was that bad.

However, I typed a bit on the 87U variable silent today. I have to say, it was a nice change. Crap...looks like I'll have to buy another variable-silent. It feels sooooo good!

[Jocelyn]

fwiw, I haven't touched a Cherry board since last year. I have blues, browns and reds. It's like typing on gravel after switching to Topre switches.)

Are your Cherry boards lubed? Springs & stems? If so what lube did you use for each? I'm asking because I completely agree that unlubed Cherry switches feel like typing on gravel, but I don't feel this way if they're properly lubed

[Macsmasher]

fwiw, I haven't touched a Cherry board since last year. I have blues, browns and reds. It's like typing on gravel after switching to Topre switches.)

Are your Cherry boards lubed? Springs & stems? If so what lube did you use for each? I'm asking because I completely agree that unlubed Cherry switches feel like typing on gravel, but I don't feel this way if they're properly lubed

No, I've not lubed them. I've tried landing pads on a CM brown board. But they didn't feel right, so I took them off.

Don't get me wrong. Cherry MX switches are workhorses. I've used them for years and was very happy with them until I got a Topre board. Most guys coming from a membrane board would think they've 'arrived' at keyboard heaven with Cherry. But...that's only because they haven't used a Topre board. And honestly, if you don't make your living on your keyboard, a Topre board is a lot of money. An extravagance. If I didn't make my living on my keyboard, it would be hard to justify the cost. You can get an awesome Cherry board for half the cost.

However, cost aside, Topre switches make Cherry feel like toys. Obviously that's my personal preference. I know there are guys that would take Cherry over Topre any day in the week. Great. Whatever you like is what is best for you. But my opinion is that Topre switches are more refined, better engineered, have a softer landing, and sound a lot better than Cherry anything.

With that said, I haven't tried Clears or Blacks. I like tactility, so I'd lean toward the Clears. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing. I'm always open to change and am nobody's fanboy. But at this point in my 20+ years making a living on my keyboard in IT and IS, I've never found anything that can hold a candle to my Topre boards. Cherry doesn't even come close given their current selection of switches.

Germans make good stuff. Next year could be different. My allegiance is to the best switch, cost aside. The beauty of a free market is competition. That keeps innovation alive! If Cherry reengineers their switches and takes the market by storm next year, you might be calling me a Cherry fanboy.   

[MJ45]

fwiw, I haven't touched a Cherry board since last year. I have blues, browns and reds. It's like typing on gravel after switching to Topre switches.)

Are your Cherry boards lubed? Springs & stems? If so what lube did you use for each? I'm asking because I completely agree that unlubed Cherry switches feel like typing on gravel, but I don't feel this way if they're properly lubed

No, I've not lubed them. I've tried landing pads on a CM brown board. But they didn't feel right, so I took them off.

Don't get me wrong. Cherry MX switches are workhorses. I've used them for years and was very happy with them until I got a Topre board. Most guys coming from a membrane board would think they've 'arrived' at keyboard heaven with Cherry. But...that's only because they haven't used a Topre board. And honestly, if you don't make your living on your keyboard, a Topre board is a lot of money. An extravagance. If I didn't make my living on my keyboard, it would be hard to justify the cost. You can get an awesome Cherry board for half the cost.

However, cost aside, Topre switches make Cherry feel like toys. Obviously that's my personal preference. I know there are guys that would take Cherry over Topre any day in the week. Great. Whatever you like is what is best for you. But my opinion is that Topre switches are more refined, better engineered, have a softer landing, and sound a lot better than Cherry anything.

With that said, I haven't tried Clears or Blacks. I like tactility, so I'd lean toward the Clears. Maybe I don't know what I'm missing. I'm always open to change and am nobody's fanboy. But at this point in my 20+ years making a living on my keyboard in IT and IS, I've never found anything that can hold a candle to my Topre boards. Cherry doesn't even come close given their current selection of switches.

Germans make good stuff. Next year could be different. My allegiance is to the best switch, cost aside. The beauty of a free market is competition. That keeps innovation alive! If Cherry reengineers their switches and takes the market by storm next year, you might be calling me a Cherry fanboy.   

There are some people that just don't care for Topre switches, I have seen a few Leo F660C in the classifieds already, saying Topre was not their cup of tea I presume they were first time Topre buyers. Different strokes for different folks! Some people like to float the actuation point when typing or gaming with Cherry MX switches, with Topre I find that hard to do without bottoming out. But everyone has a favorite type of switch to know ALL have to be experienced.     

[Michael]

There are some people that just don't care for Topre switches, I have seen a few Leo F660C in the classifieds already, saying Topre was not their cup of tea I presume they were first time Topre buyers. Different strokes for different folks! Some people like to float the actuation point when typing or gaming with Cherry MX switches, with Topre I find that hard to do without bottoming out. But everyone has a favorite type of switch to know ALL have to be experienced.     

I have had some experience with the Leopold, and can say it's not the ideal Topre experience (imho). Now that might be a little biased because I have been using the HHKB Type-S for some time now. Some things that bothered me were the lesser quality build of the case and the noise (which is present in almost any non-silent Topre board). For tactile responsiveness, I would say the 55g switch is the best, simply because you don't have to bottom out with it, and you get a nice snappy response. But bottoming out on any topre board is a lot more forgiving (pain-wise) than any Cherry switch I have used.


Also, the fact that it doesn't use standard topre mods (and profile) is one of the bigger turn-offs. They could have easily used the same mod layout as the RF and chose not to. Same reason to dislike most Leo space bars =/
And another big gripe is the lack of blank options

[WhiteFireDragon]

I have had some experience with the Leopold, and can say it's not the ideal Topre experience (imho).

Also, the fact that it doesn't use standard topre mods (and profile) is one of the bigger turn-offs.

There are only 2 other Topre boards out right now, HHKB and Realforce. You can't really say something is "standard" or "ideal" when there is such a small pool to choose from. All 3 have different switch feel (even with the same switch weight), different size and layout, and different construction. None of these should be considered the de facto, until there are a lot more choices and they all lean towards the same characteristics.

[tp4tissue]

Agreed, my Type-S space has far less rattle to it. They've also added those little landing pads on the HHKB spacebar. You'd need to slam it fairly hard to contact them, but it's a nice touch which isn't on the RF boards.

Part of the issue on the RF is that the stabilizer tabs don't lock in firmly enough. If you use something like the thick EK "mech lube" on these it temporarily resolves much of the spacebar noise.

Sorry everybody. I've been dealing with some stuff at home and haven't been here for a few weeks.

My 87U silent spacebar drives me nuts. I have to put Mechlube in it constantly so I don't have to listen to it. It sounds as bad or worse than this...

I tried landing pads and Mechlube. Nothing has fixed the issue. However, my 87U 55g uni and HHKB Pro2 non-silent have no problems. (Love my 55g RF btw. Hardly touch my HHKB Pro2. I just use it for a change in my day. fwiw, I haven't touched a Cherry board since last year. I have blues, browns and reds. It's like typing on gravel after switching to Topre switches.)

In fact, my 87U variable silent spacebar was so bad, I gave it to my son. He's in college, so obviously it didn't go to waste. (What college kid would complain about an $310 keyboard.) But had I kept it, I would've send it back to EK. The spacebar was that bad.

However, I typed a bit on the 87U variable silent today. I have to say, it was a nice change. Crap...looks like I'll have to buy another variable-silent. It feels sooooo good!

why don't you just get it replaced?

[libo720]

Topre is a more refined experience.  Ergo clears are the closest cherry switch to topre....but topre bests it.  Put it this way...I have tried nearly every switch under the sun and I keep coming back to topre.

Exactly.
I'm nearly finished my ergo-clears KBT Pure project that's been all Korean'd up with stickers, lube, etc. Any switches that I've tested so far simply can't compare to my Realforce 87U silent or other Topre keyboards. This maxed-out Pure will end up for sale like everything else has. I actually find myself getting quite attached to my Realforce board because it works so damn well for work.

Even if you give MX switches the best possible configuration, Topre is still in a different league entirely. These beautiful Korean keyboards seem pretty pointless (to me) because they're so flawless, yet stuck with the switches used in $40 gaming keyboards. Perfect Alu cases, plates, lube, and stickers really just amounts to lipstick on a pig when the very core of the typing experience is still the same cheapo MX switch. It's form over function.

Topre is a level of refinement and quality that will never be possible with MX, unless they release an entirely redesigned switch type. You really should test a Realforce kb for a least a month. It might save you from wasting your time and money.

What is the difference between the silent version and the normal 55g verison?

[MJ45]

I have had some experience with the Leopold, and can say it's not the ideal Topre experience (imho).

Also, the fact that it doesn't use standard topre mods (and profile) is one of the bigger turn-offs.

There are only 2 other Topre boards out right now, HHKB and Realforce. You can't really say something is "standard" or "ideal" when there is such a small pool to choose from. All 3 have different switch feel (even with the same switch weight), different size and layout, and different construction. None of these should be considered the de facto, until there are a lot more choices and they all lean towards the same characteristics.

I have not tried the F660C but it should offer a similar feel of RF or HHKB, but to me a Realforce TKL is pretty much the standard & HHKB is the ideal 60% so far as Topre switch keyboards so far.

[daerid]

I have not tried the F660C but it should offer a similar feel of RF or HHKB, but to me a Realforce TKL is pretty much the standard & HHKB is the ideal 60% so far as Topre switch keyboards so far.

I don't see how you can even make that claim, as up until the FC660C, the two boards you mentioned were the only Topre boards available in the US retail market. I realize there are other Topre boards available, but they're kind of a pain to get a hold of, and the amount of units sold is probably far less than the RF or HHKB.

[MJ45]

I have not tried the F660C but it should offer a similar feel of RF or HHKB, but to me a Realforce TKL is pretty much the standard & HHKB is the ideal 60% so far as Topre switch keyboards so far.

I don't see how you can even make that claim, as up until the FC660C, the two boards you mentioned were the only Topre boards available in the US retail market. I realize there are other Topre boards available, but they're kind of a pain to get a hold of, and the amount of units sold is probably far less than the RF or HHKB.

What I'm saying is the US retail market has only what EK has and the FC660C seems well received and an alternate Topre choice other than RF or HHKB  to where it was said that " its not the ideal Topre exprience".  It seems like good alternative choice to me and have more Topre options.

[Michael]

I have had some experience with the Leopold, and can say it's not the ideal Topre experience (imho).

Also, the fact that it doesn't use standard topre mods (and profile) is one of the bigger turn-offs.

There are only 2 other Topre boards out right now, HHKB and Realforce. You can't really say something is "standard" or "ideal" when there is such a small pool to choose from. All 3 have different switch feel (even with the same switch weight), different size and layout, and different construction. None of these should be considered the de facto, until there are a lot more choices and they all lean towards the same characteristics.

I can say it's standard when they are the only models to compare to. I stated several times "IMO" if you bothered to read that. You don't need to preach to the choir regarding Topre boards ^__^

[Michael]

I have not tried the F660C but it should offer a similar feel of RF or HHKB, but to me a Realforce TKL is pretty much the standard & HHKB is the ideal 60% so far as Topre switch keyboards so far.

I don't see how you can even make that claim, as up until the FC660C, the two boards you mentioned were the only Topre boards available in the US retail market. I realize there are other Topre boards available, but they're kind of a pain to get a hold of, and the amount of units sold is probably far less than the RF or HHKB.

RF and HHKB are the only choices, unless you count uTron. But for the masses, the Leopold is a newcomer to the game, so it's perfectly OK to use the HHKB and RF as the example.

[Latin00032]

I have gone through the same journey, tried every single switch I could possibly try, and ended up back at Topre. While it may be a matter of personal opinion on what switch is better/best, the many people that use Topre are surely not delusional.

You can use the argument that topre is a rubber dome, and sure, technically yes it is. Does that make it the same as your scissor switch or other cheap rubber domes? Most certainly not. Any argument based on this, is one based on pure ignorance.
But let's get real here; we ARE having this discussion with tp4, after all.....

A not uncommon conclusion to the same journey. A few forum searches will find plenty of FS posts where people are ditching their crap, including Korean customs because they "really only use their HHKB/Realforce". There's far fewer shifting the other direction within the realm of workhorse "getting **** done" keyboards. Collecting keycaps and custom kb projects are kind of a separate thing.

If I could time travel back and give advice to myself, I'd simply say: "Stick with the 87U-silent because you'll grow to enjoy it more than any man should enjoy his keyboard. Don't waste your time and money hoping some magic sauce and love will fix MX switches".

What about the fc660c? Have you tried this one yet?

Can you mod topre to be silent?

[Michael]

I have gone through the same journey, tried every single switch I could possibly try, and ended up back at Topre. While it may be a matter of personal opinion on what switch is better/best, the many people that use Topre are surely not delusional.

You can use the argument that topre is a rubber dome, and sure, technically yes it is. Does that make it the same as your scissor switch or other cheap rubber domes? Most certainly not. Any argument based on this, is one based on pure ignorance.
But let's get real here; we ARE having this discussion with tp4, after all.....

A not uncommon conclusion to the same journey. A few forum searches will find plenty of FS posts where people are ditching their crap, including Korean customs because they "really only use their HHKB/Realforce". There's far fewer shifting the other direction within the realm of workhorse "getting **** done" keyboards. Collecting keycaps and custom kb projects are kind of a separate thing.

If I could time travel back and give advice to myself, I'd simply say: "Stick with the 87U-silent because you'll grow to enjoy it more than any man should enjoy his keyboard. Don't waste your time and money hoping some magic sauce and love will fix MX switches".

Can you mod topre to be silent?

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40582

[typo]

the topre is better to me by a little bit than clears. I was wondering if someone could actually explain how what is really a rubber dome feels so darn good. also how no other company has been able to duplicate that?

edit: for the record I was comparing factory clears. I have not tried ergo's. I doubt I would prefer them over topre anyways. I just don't get how a rubber dome is the best keyboard. I mean to me a least.

[iri]

some people really should open their minds to understand that "rubber dome" is a technology, not an adjective for something bad.

[daerid]

the topre is better to me by a little bit than clears. I was wondering if someone could actually explain how what is really a rubber dome feels so darn good. also how no other company has been able to duplicate that?

Nobody else wants to use the high level of quality components that go into a Topre switch. Also, Topre's are patented so. And there's nothing inherently good or bad about rubber dome switches, it's just that the vast majority of them are made with really, really crappy parts.

[Masterchief79]

Also, Topre's are patented so.

Which kind of means you can still make it and sell it in China, so I'm kinda wondering why nobody there tried to copy a Topre switch yet. Topre keyboards for 30$+shipping, what would you say to that

[Jocelyn]

Also, Topre's are patented so.

Which kind of means you can still make it and sell it in China, so I'm kinda wondering why nobody there tried to copy a Topre switch yet. Topre keyboards for 30$+shipping, what would you say to that

It means you can definitely make it in China and I bet this will happen due to Leopold's FC660C being made in Taiwan lol. I'd buy one 

[Binge]

ewww this thread.... the switches are what they are and unless you've felt them you won't be able to make a good enough opinion. Use what technical info is around the forums to make an educated decision for your first try.  You make a good enough choice it'll have a return policy.  I vote to ban switch comparison threads which are based around a pending purchase.

[daerid]

Also, Topre's are patented so.

Which kind of means you can still make it and sell it in China, so I'm kinda wondering why nobody there tried to copy a Topre switch yet. Topre keyboards for 30$+shipping, what would you say to that

I think the actual cost of the materials is much higher than $30, so I'd say that's highly unlikely.

[Masterchief79]

Well you're going to buy a probably 200€ keyboard and you don't know if you rather like one with clears or topre... It's lame that you have really no possibility of comparing those switches, because actually, you're right. You have to type them yourself to make your own opinion. But how?^^ Does your local distributor have all those things there to try? So no wonder people are making these threads to get as much information as possible, eh?

@daerid: Not literally 30$, but even for a hundred bucks, still no bad deal... depends on their choice of material of course. And I don't think they would feel 100% the same either, just saying. But technically...

[Binge]

So no wonder people are making these threads to get as much information as possible, eh?

But in the rest of your post you basically admit that this opinion sh!t doesn't help.  That invalidates the need or want for me to wonder.  I know why they're making them, and it's because they want peace of mind.  They should know they're risking money and could be unhappy anyway, or they could just ****ing buy the keyboard and chance it like they're going to do eventually.

Both clears and topre have lovers and haters.  Neither switch has anything more than opinionated likes/dislikes... both work, they're often highly sought after, and many people like them.  These threads need to stop, or people need to only give these OPs the facts.  I would love to see how many pages of text exist on the subject of switch opinions.

[tp4tissue]

Yes. these threads are primarily occupied by insecure haters and fanbois.

[HongKongFui]

I think the actual cost of the materials is much higher than $30, so I'd say that's highly unlikely.

Really? I can't imagine that. Adding production costs (not materials but machines, workers etc.), profit margin for the production company, profit margin for the seller (and often another seller) I highly doubt the production company has higher costs than 30$ for only the materials given the amounts in which they buy that stuff...

[Michael]

I think the actual cost of the materials is much higher than $30, so I'd say that's highly unlikely.

Really? I can't imagine that. Adding production costs (not materials but machines, workers etc.), profit margin for the production company, profit margin for the seller (and often another seller) I highly doubt the production company has higher costs than 30$ for only the materials given the amounts in which they buy that stuff...

There's quite a difference in material quality between topre rubber and your typical cheap rubber domes. It's not just a little better, it is a lot better. It also attributes to the switches resistance, making it thicker and certainly longer lasting.

[HongKongFui]

What you wrote really has nothing to do with what I wrote Bro...

EDIT: And many thngs I haven't mentioned so far: Overhead, Website, Marketing and ads   etc. The raw material costs can't be that high. I don't doubt that the materials quality is way better then "my" (??) typical cheap rubberdome, but that wasn't my point.

[4LI4Z]

I really like Ergo Clears, think it's time to try Topre.

[typo]

guys, I am sorry. I actually get it now. it is like saying a lp560 and a yaris are both cars. one has higher performance than the other regardless.
on that note, to the op. they are both the top of the line. the only way you could know is if you try them. what other people like or dislike does not apply to you personally. everyone is an individual.

[tp4tissue]

guys, I am sorry. I actually get it now. it is like saying a lp560 and a yaris are both cars. one has higher performance than the other regardless.
on that note, to the op. they are both the top of the line. the only way you could know is if you try them. what other people like or dislike does not apply to you personally. everyone is an individual.

No... it is nothing like that.......

[typo]

nah. I meant in regard to topre being a rubber dome. sure, it is a rubber dome but there are different levels of performance. even amongst rubber domes. hence, the analogy that they are both cars. I was just baffled that a rubber dome could be so good. it is not the technology, it is the quality. it just so happens that most rubber domes are cheaply made and then one is awesome.

tp4, unless you were insinuating that there is not that big a difference. I feel there surely is.

[keymaster]

After lubing my 65g MX Clears, I've come to the realization that they indeed feel similar to Topre. I don't know what to do with this feel.

[Michael]

I don't know what to do with this feel.

Touch yourself.

[daerid]

After lubing my 65g MX Clears, I've come to the realization that they indeed feel similar to Topre. I don't know what to do with this feel.

Oh goodie. It's been so long since I've used clears that I forgot what they feel like. Made a good choice on my ErgoDox then.