Author Topic: Do I need a new router?  (Read 4302 times)

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Offline tp4tissue

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Do I need a new router?
« on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 04:34:54 »
Just upgraded to the 75/35 from fios.  Using the fios router atm

NOT GETTING simultaneous speeds of 75/35,

Only getting the 75 dl, and like 7-15 ul   when everything is running.

You guys think it might be the router?

I can get 110 between computers so i thought thoroughput shouldn't be the issue.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 17:32:04 »
Depends on the FIOS router/modem.
It may simply need a reboot, but if it's an older model, then yes it may need to be upgraded.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 18:17:50 »
Depends on the FIOS router/modem.
It may simply need a reboot, but if it's an older model, then yes it may need to be upgraded.

Wireless AC, your thoughts..

I only see 2x2 cards available..  :'(

Offline PointyFox

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 18:50:04 »
Maybe your modem needs to use DOCSIS 3.0 for that service and yours is running DOCSIS 2.0?

DOCSIS 3.0 has higher throughput and also can use multiple downstream and upstream channels at the same time, which will provide faster speed if the network is congested.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 August 2013, 18:54:43 by PointyFox »

Offline ITzNybble

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 18:56:08 »
The thing is yiu are nit guaranteed thise speeds by your ISP they just kimit you to those speeds. Flucuation is normall.are you using wifi or Ethernet connection?
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Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 18:58:53 »
Maybe your modem needs to use DOCSIS 3.0 for that service and yours is running DOCSIS 2.0?

DOCSIS 3.0 has higher throughput and also can use multiple downstream and upstream channels at the same time, which will provide faster speed if the network is congested.

If that is the case, would he not be able to get 75Mbps download as well? DOCSIS 2.0 won't be able to pull 75Mbps. Oh right, and FiOS is fiber optics, DOCSIS is for cable.

Offline jalaj

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 19:09:09 »
Just test while wired directly into the fios gateway device and see if you get the WAN speed of your package. Transferring locally between your wired home computers is irrelevant as that is LAN speed.
Also, its rare that you get the marketed speeds, usually the ISP has an out by using the verbiage "up to XX Mbps"
But, wireless N should already have you covered for 75Mbps speeds if it can do 300Mbps for dual antenna or 450Mbps for tri-antenna devices. Factor in interference from other radio frequencies that could degrade your wireless signal. Thus wired is best test first, then work your way forward to narrow down the speed problem from there.


Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 21:03:19 »
well, I can get   85 down,  and 40 up , Individually.


For example, I can Torrent up to 10MB/s with around 400kb/s upload,  Or I could get 5MB/s upload with no Download


The problem comes when I try to do Both..  which is why I thought it might be the router.

This is through my onboard intel Nic.


Offline tormentor

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 22:31:41 »
I know this isn't much of an answer but maybe you should visit tom's hardware and ask there.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 22:42:27 »
Just test while wired directly into the fios gateway device and see if you get the WAN speed of your package.

Also, its rare that you get the marketed speeds, usually the ISP has an out by using the verbiage "up to XX Mbps"

Pretty easy way to rule the router out.
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Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:19:47 »
Just test while wired directly into the fios gateway device and see if you get the WAN speed of your package.

Also, its rare that you get the marketed speeds, usually the ISP has an out by using the verbiage "up to XX Mbps"

Pretty easy way to rule the router out.

That doesn't mean he can't have some weird settings on his router limiting his speed during certain times or when it detects a certain thing.

well, I can get   85 down,  and 40 up , Individually.


For example, I can Torrent up to 10MB/s with around 400kb/s upload,  Or I could get 5MB/s upload with no Download


The problem comes when I try to do Both..  which is why I thought it might be the router.

This is through my onboard intel Nic.



Try downloading and uploading to servers that can handle 75 Mbps and 35 Mbps at the same time. Torrenting doesn't really give you an accurate idea of speed, unless if you alone is connected to a server that can upload that fast. Then there is also settings on torrent programs, such as limits on download/upload if it detects that you are downloading something.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:34:28 »
Just test while wired directly into the fios gateway device and see if you get the WAN speed of your package.

Also, its rare that you get the marketed speeds, usually the ISP has an out by using the verbiage "up to XX Mbps"

Pretty easy way to rule the router out.


SSKs for everyone!

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:35:29 »
After that is okay then you can look at the router and settings. Troubleshooting 101.
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Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:43:39 »
Just test while wired directly into the fios gateway device and see if you get the WAN speed of your package.

Also, its rare that you get the marketed speeds, usually the ISP has an out by using the verbiage "up to XX Mbps"

Pretty easy way to rule the router out.


The router was pretty much ruled out when he stated he can transfer 110Mbps over the network itself, it still doesn't hurt to check the settings. Doing a test usually does not do both download and upload at the same time, but one after the other. I would check the torrent program's settings first then troubleshoot the router, modem, or anything else.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:52:52 »
That makes no sense. You can't rule the router out completely without removing it from equation completely (which has not been done.) Secondly, if the router had been ruled out as the problem (which it hasn't) then why would you check or modify settings? That would indicate the problem IS the router.

Edit: I see the OP said he's using an "All-in-one" device from the ISP. That wasn't really clear, but it's there. In that case contact the ISP OP. Personally, I always use a separate gateway and router like most.
« Last Edit: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:58:40 by smknjoe »
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Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 04 August 2013, 23:59:47 »
That makes no sense. You can't rule the router out completely without removing it from equation completely (which has not been done.) Secondly, if the router had been ruled out as the problem (which it hasn't) then why would you check or modify settings? That would indicate the problem IS the router.

Torrents takes time to get trackers and stuff. Why bother going to the modem and waiting if the software is really the problem? He might decide to use a different computer while connected to the modem, and therefore get different results. Last time I used a torrenting program was a few years ago, but I recall having a setting limiting my upload speed if I have any active downloading torrents. OP had no issues with getting advertised speeds when not torrenting and just doing a speed-test. The router is fully capable of doing 110 Mbps (75+35).

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 00:01:52 »
See the OP. He's using an "all-in-one" device from his ISP. Since most of those are ISP specific he probably just needs to contact Verizon or whoever his ISP is.
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Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 00:07:44 »
See the OP. He's using an "all-in-one" device from his ISP. Since most of those are ISP specific he probably just needs to contact Verizon or whoever his ISP is.

I see this going very well.
"Hey Verizon, why is my upload speed so slow when I torrent things?"
If he gets asked to do a speed-test then it will end up going nowhere because he gets 75/35Mbps. If they send a service guy out, the person will probably just do a diagnostics and a speed-test and find nothing wrong as well.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 00:12:41 »
I agree. That's why I would only use an approved modem/gateway and set up my own router like most people do (and I incorrectly assumed he had done.)
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 17:56:20 »
If you can, check the modem and see what speeds it is reporting.
A speed test site is great, but doesn't tell you what the modem is actually connecting at, which is what I assumed Tp4tissue was quoting numbers from. For example, if you have 40meg connection but the modem is only connected at 20. And yes, if can be lopsided, like full download speed, but a hindered upload speed. I have even seen them negotiate a faster upload than download connection.

Before you run a speed test, you need to see what the modem is connected at. If speeds are lower than advertised then you should be calling your company. Most companies these days are giving you what they advertise or close. 5 years ago, not so much, but today they have more truth in advertised speeds. A tech can also tell you what to expect.

On speed tests, you may be hitting the speed limits of the servers you are connecting to, internet traffic, local traffic... lots can impact this.  If you test a Virgin mobile cell phone on speed test, it always defaults to a server near Kansas City, which is closest to the Virgin server. Problem is, EVERYONE does that server, so speeds are horrid. Tell it to instead test on a New York server and suddenly speeds go way up. For this reason, if you get weird speed test results, you should run multiple tests on multiple servers to see if it's the test site or your connection.

And I agree, all in one devices are terrible.
Usually poorly made (in bulk), and are almost always behind on features, speeds, and security.
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 August 2013, 18:09:06 by Leslieann »
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Offline foxer

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 18:19:15 »
Learn 2 router! Step on a lego.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken.

Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 19:00:46 »
If you can, check the modem and see what speeds it is reporting.
A speed test site is great, but doesn't tell you what the modem is actually connecting at, which is what I assumed Tp4tissue was quoting numbers from. For example, if you have 40meg connection but the modem is only connected at 20. And yes, if can be lopsided, like full download speed, but a hindered upload speed. I have even seen them negotiate a faster upload than download connection.

Before you run a speed test, you need to see what the modem is connected at. If speeds are lower than advertised then you should be calling your company. Most companies these days are giving you what they advertise or close. 5 years ago, not so much, but today they have more truth in advertised speeds. A tech can also tell you what to expect.

On speed tests, you may be hitting the speed limits of the servers you are connecting to, internet traffic, local traffic... lots can impact this.  If you test a Virgin mobile cell phone on speed test, it always defaults to a server near Kansas City, which is closest to the Virgin server. Problem is, EVERYONE does that server, so speeds are horrid. Tell it to instead test on a New York server and suddenly speeds go way up. For this reason, if you get weird speed test results, you should run multiple tests on multiple servers to see if it's the test site or your connection.

And I agree, all in one devices are terrible.
Usually poorly made (in bulk), and are almost always behind on features, speeds, and security.

well, I can get   85 down,  and 40 up , Individually.


For example, I can Torrent up to 10MB/s with around 400kb/s upload,  Or I could get 5MB/s upload with no Download


The problem comes when I try to do Both..  which is why I thought it might be the router.

This is through my onboard intel Nic.



He is getting his numbers from the torrenting program. 10MB/s = 80Mbps, that checks out just fine. 5MB/s = 40Mbps, which also checks out fine. He is getting 80/40, which is very reasonable speeds for 75/35. Another way to do it is to open task manager and see the speeds of which data is being received/sent.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 19:11:14 »
If you can, check the modem and see what speeds it is reporting.
A speed test site is great, but doesn't tell you what the modem is actually connecting at, which is what I assumed Tp4tissue was quoting numbers from. For example, if you have 40meg connection but the modem is only connected at 20. And yes, if can be lopsided, like full download speed, but a hindered upload speed. I have even seen them negotiate a faster upload than download connection.

Before you run a speed test, you need to see what the modem is connected at. If speeds are lower than advertised then you should be calling your company. Most companies these days are giving you what they advertise or close. 5 years ago, not so much, but today they have more truth in advertised speeds. A tech can also tell you what to expect.

On speed tests, you may be hitting the speed limits of the servers you are connecting to, internet traffic, local traffic... lots can impact this.  If you test a Virgin mobile cell phone on speed test, it always defaults to a server near Kansas City, which is closest to the Virgin server. Problem is, EVERYONE does that server, so speeds are horrid. Tell it to instead test on a New York server and suddenly speeds go way up. For this reason, if you get weird speed test results, you should run multiple tests on multiple servers to see if it's the test site or your connection.

And I agree, all in one devices are terrible.
Usually poorly made (in bulk), and are almost always behind on features, speeds, and security.

well, I can get   85 down,  and 40 up , Individually.


For example, I can Torrent up to 10MB/s with around 400kb/s upload,  Or I could get 5MB/s upload with no Download


The problem comes when I try to do Both..  which is why I thought it might be the router.

This is through my onboard intel Nic.



He is getting his numbers from the torrenting program. 10MB/s = 80Mbps, that checks out just fine. 5MB/s = 40Mbps, which also checks out fine. He is getting 80/40, which is very reasonable speeds for 75/35. Another way to do it is to open task manager and see the speeds of which data is being received/sent.

I am getting the Rated speeds, BUT, it's mutually exclusive.

I cannot achieve 5 up and 10 down simultaneously

I know my PC and NIC can obviously handle this, so I thought it may be the router.

Offline Topre

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 19:28:52 »
I am getting the Rated speeds, BUT, it's mutually exclusive.

I cannot achieve 5 up and 10 down simultaneously

I know my PC and NIC can obviously handle this, so I thought it may be the router.

Have you tried to download something without torrents, while uploading with torrents? Get your upload speed up to 5MBps/35Mbps on the torrent software then download a file with a download accelerator to make sure that your browser or a single download thread is not limiting your speed. You can download Windows 7, which is a 3.09GB file. That should give you enough time to get to 75Mbps and stay at about 35Mbps upload before finishing the download.

You can do the same thing but the other way around.

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 05 August 2013, 20:16:36 »
Your speeds sound fine. You can't use the max speed of both directions simultaneously and you shouldn't need to for residential service. The more download bandwidth you use the more upload bandwidth you use for CRC and other protocol overhead. The same is true when uploading.
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Offline MKULTRA

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 01:41:57 »
Maybe they are y'know...  Throttling you....

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 02:54:25 »
Your speeds sound fine. You can't use the max speed of both directions simultaneously and you shouldn't need to for residential service. The more download bandwidth you use the more upload bandwidth you use for CRC and other protocol overhead. The same is true when uploading.

no, I know exactly how that overhead is, because utorrent shows it.. and it is below my "advertised speed"

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 02:55:17 »
I am getting the Rated speeds, BUT, it's mutually exclusive.

I cannot achieve 5 up and 10 down simultaneously

I know my PC and NIC can obviously handle this, so I thought it may be the router.

Have you tried to download something without torrents, while uploading with torrents? Get your upload speed up to 5MBps/35Mbps on the torrent software then download a file with a download accelerator to make sure that your browser or a single download thread is not limiting your speed. You can download Windows 7, which is a 3.09GB file. That should give you enough time to get to 75Mbps and stay at about 35Mbps upload before finishing the download.

You can do the same thing but the other way around.

Yes, I tried this.. same thing happens.

I download a game from steam, it goes 10megabyte / s  then , i turn on my uploads in torrent, it will go to 2-3megabyte/s,

but steam will drop to 6-7..

Offline smknjoe

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 03:15:19 »
Your speeds sound fine. You can't use the max speed of both directions simultaneously and you shouldn't need to for residential service. The more download bandwidth you use the more upload bandwidth you use for CRC and other protocol overhead. The same is true when uploading.

no, I know exactly how that overhead is, because utorrent shows it.. and it is below my "advertised speed"

No you don't. Not with micro torrent's software. Microtorrent is not a packet analyzer and it does not have the ability to see TCP/UDP traffic at the gateway level. And my previous statement is true as well. However, that doesn't mean that there is not some traffic filtering or throttling at the gateway or ISP end. Most likely a call center tech for your ISP will not have the ability to check these settings and they probably won't let you talk to someone who does. So, good luck.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 06:44:49 »
On torrents, that depends on a TON of factors, the most important of which, you can't see.

Your speeds aren't based solely on what your speed is, or even what their speed is. Believe it or not, your router can totally effect torrent speeds. A cheap router can only handle so many connections, and the tor network can flood out even good routers very, very fast.

What you think is overhead, isn't the overhead you need to be concerned with. There is overhead, as in how much data is sent for negotiations, which can easily be measured and seen in the client, that's easy, but what you can't see is the number of operations to handle them. If you say it can use a max of 200 connections, you will have 200 connections of data coming through your router, on top of anything else you are doing. Even a good router can choke much above 200 connections, because while you have 200 connections, each connection can generate a ton of back and forth traffic, it has to ask for data, get confirmation, send data, say it got it, then verify it, then do it all again. All that, per chunk of data, per connection, it can quickly add up to thousands of simultaneous operations. While 200 connections sounds low, it's enough to nearly drown a router with 64megs of ram. 64megs of ram, is a high end router. Your modem router combo, that you got free or cheap, will almost certainly have less than that.

Basically, you will never see max speeds on torrents, ESPECIALLY with a cheap router, even after you tune it, and account for overhead, there is just too many I/O operations for it to happen. This is also why you will never see max speed in each direction, the more going out, the fewer you can have coming in.
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do I need a new router?
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 06 August 2013, 09:13:22 »
got a router on order. we'll see...