Reconsidering GMAIL

[digi]

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/14/google-gmail-users-privacy-email-lawsuit

"Google has finally admitted they don't respect privacy," said John Simpson, Consumer Watchdog's privacy project director. "People should take them at their word; if you care about your email correspondents' privacy, don't use Gmail."

[Tym]

Still, I have Gmail, yahoo mail, and hotmail accounts. Gmail is my favorite, Yahoo Mail has been hacked multiple times (and they are going to start charging for it) and Hotmail is god damn useless, not fun.

[TheQsanity]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

[digi]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

I'm a strong believer in things that appear as free usually are not (unless it's BunnyLake giveaway's . So much hosted/cloud garbage now, don't like the direction it's going. Might be considering just buying my own domain mx and hosting my own mail server.

[codyeatworld]

I'm considering switching over to https://www.fastmail.fm/
I've heard good things about it lately.

I have a lot of services tied to my gmail accounts so it sucks, I really want to get away from google completely.

[digi]

I'm considering switching over to https://www.fastmail.fm/
I've heard good things about it lately.

I have a lot of services tied to my gmail accounts so it sucks, I really want to get away from google completely.

Google will probably lose the smart masses, most people are lazy and won't switch. They know they have people locked in because so many things are tied into it. I'm in the same boat as you but will be switching.

[kenmai9]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

[digi]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

[thebeargentile]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

I'm a strong believer in things that appear as free usually are not (unless it's BunnyLake giveaway's . So much hosted/cloud garbage now, don't like the direction it's going. Might be considering just buying my own domain mx and hosting my own mail server.

Very true--"if you're not paying for it, you're probably the product."  I've been looking into alternatives for a while... people always use the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" line, but I think that it's crazy to be expected shift to the norm that private and personal conversations don't have an expectation of privacy.

[fohat.digs]

I have used and loved gmail for many years, but recently they have become much more "evil" to use their own terminology.

My desire is to have a straight clean simple email client without any garbage tied to it.

I love Google Docs for many reasons, but wish that it could be disengaged from my email service unless I specifically asked for them to talk.

[Michael]

I have used and loved gmail for many years, but recently they have become much more "evil" to use their own terminology.

My desire is to have a straight clean simple email client without any garbage tied to it.

I love Google Docs for many reasons, but wish that it could be disengaged from my email service unless I specifically asked for them to talk.

Irony

[acantha]

i've been tempted to setup my own email host for a while now, and use mutt. going to have to give that more thought i think.

[TheQsanity]

Everyone is lazy. Most people would rather use the easier to use and easier to access programs. At the rate their going I don't think people will stop using Gmail or at least anytime soon.

[alaricljs]

I run a server w/ postfix (SMTP), dovecot (IMAP), dspam (anti-spam), clamav (AV), roundcube (webmail), and a number of integration components.  My primary access is via Thunderbird, but roundcube does nicely.  Sieve server-side filtering keeps my different client views happy rather than relying on client side filtering.

[wiredPANDA]

Data mining is big business.  Data is everything.  And Google has done a good job of making sure most users will not leave, regardless of what they admit to or state explicitly (instead of through a Terms and Use agreement), simply because users are so embedded into the product(s) and ease of use.

And since no one mentioned it, if you're looking for a new email provider online - check out: http://www.hushmail.com/

[baldgye]

Online privacy is a sick joke, Gmail is from my experience the best email client.

[digi]

I run a server w/ postfix (SMTP), dovecot (IMAP), dspam (anti-spam), clamav (AV), roundcube (webmail), and a number of integration components.  My primary access is via Thunderbird, but roundcube does nicely.  Sieve server-side filtering keeps my different client views happy rather than relying on client side filtering.

Nice, and that's all open-source free linux stuff if I'm not mistaken. Might be a fun project here.

[kmiller8]

All I'm getting out of this is that google/gmail is the only ones to actually come out and say, no your **** isn't encrypted, if a government agency comes and asks for your stuff, we're going to give them what they ask for.

kudos to them for telling it like it is.

If you seriously think you're going to be "safer" on any other email client just because they haven't said "oh yeah, we share all your data with the government" you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing.

[digi]

If you seriously think you're going to be "safer" on any other email client just because they haven't said "oh yeah, we share all your data with the government" you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing.

If you setup your own mail server, the mail is still sent in plain text, unless you use mail encryption on everything (which isn't practical in my opinion), however the government would have to intercept your message which is currently illegal without a warrant. I'm not sure what you mean by "you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing." This has nothing to do with illegal activity, we're talking confidentiality rights for the Red, White and Blue.

[thebeargentile]

All I'm getting out of this is that google/gmail is the only ones to actually come out and say, no your **** isn't encrypted, if a government agency comes and asks for your stuff, we're going to give them what they ask for.

kudos to them for telling it like it is.

If you seriously think you're going to be "safer" on any other email client just because they haven't said "oh yeah, we share all your data with the government" you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing.

That's a Bingo... there aren't going to be many free alternatives (Yahoo, Hotmail, etc.) that are any better, whether they tell you outright what they share or not.  Gmail is definitely one of the better services in terms of data liberation and transparency on most accounts.  At the end of the day, to me, it's not even an issue of illegal activity, but it's like being back in school and trying to pass a note to someone, and that one annoying nosy person in the class takes it upon themselves to intercept and read your note before it got to the recipient... it's not like you're hiding anything, but it's none of their business what the note says.  It's just a choice everyone has to make between convince and the principles of privacy.

[jameslr]

I guess I'm of the opinion that if the govt wants my data badly enough they're going to get it no matter which email service I use. If you think you have privacy anywhere in the world, you're sadly delusional. On the Internet or any open network - anything is fair game. If you want or require privacy then stay off the net...simple as that.

I use Google services and have practically since their inception. I don't have a problem storing my data on their servers. I put things out in the net understanding that they could potentially be accessed by unauthorized people. That is the nature of the medium. It's just a matter of perspective I suppose.

[esoomenona]

All I'm getting out of this is that google/gmail is the only ones to actually come out and say, no your **** isn't encrypted, if a government agency comes and asks for your stuff, we're going to give them what they ask for.

kudos to them for telling it like it is.

If you seriously think you're going to be "safer" on any other email client just because they haven't said "oh yeah, we share all your data with the government" you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing.

That's a Bingo... there aren't going to be many free alternatives (Yahoo, Hotmail, etc.) that are any better, whether they tell you outright what they share or not.  Gmail is definitely one of the better services in terms of data liberation and transparency on most accounts.  At the end of the day, to me, it's not even an issue of illegal activity, but it's like being back in school and trying to pass a note to someone, and that one annoying nosy person in the class takes it upon themselves to intercept and read your note before it got to the recipient... it's not like you're hiding anything, but it's none of their business what the note says.  It's just a choice everyone has to make between convince and the principles of privacy.

Except that that's not even the same thing. It's not like Gmail is sitting up at night, reading all of your dirty emails, laughing at you and telling all of their friends.

[thebeargentile]

All I'm getting out of this is that google/gmail is the only ones to actually come out and say, no your **** isn't encrypted, if a government agency comes and asks for your stuff, we're going to give them what they ask for.

kudos to them for telling it like it is.

If you seriously think you're going to be "safer" on any other email client just because they haven't said "oh yeah, we share all your data with the government" you deserve to be caught doing whatever illegal **** you're doing.

That's a Bingo... there aren't going to be many free alternatives (Yahoo, Hotmail, etc.) that are any better, whether they tell you outright what they share or not.  Gmail is definitely one of the better services in terms of data liberation and transparency on most accounts.  At the end of the day, to me, it's not even an issue of illegal activity, but it's like being back in school and trying to pass a note to someone, and that one annoying nosy person in the class takes it upon themselves to intercept and read your note before it got to the recipient... it's not like you're hiding anything, but it's none of their business what the note says.  It's just a choice everyone has to make between convince and the principles of privacy.

Except that that's not even the same thing. It's not like Gmail is sitting up at night, reading all of your dirty emails, laughing at you and telling all of their friends.

I don't know that I would go that far... there's a big difference between using an algorithm to scan for key words to push targets ads, and actively and personally looking through people's emails (which is where the whole NSA issue enters this debate).  As jameslr said, you're really putting your fate into the hands of whoever you host with... you're putting all of your "dirty emails" on their servers, not paying them anything, and then trusting them to be honorable with them.  I guess I could revise my analogy to say that it's like giving a note to your friend to deliver to a girl you have a crush on, and trusting that he won't open it and read it.  I agree with you that it's sketchy, but they're going to make their money some how, and it's definitely worth looking into private hosting if you're looking to have more control over who can see and work with your messages...though once again, the second you send a message to someone who does not host their own mail, then you're once again putting your information into someone else's hands. 

[korrelate]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

[Tym]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

Why would the government want to steal your soap?

[jameslr]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

Then keep this stuff offline. Store it on a USB stick, whatever. If you're actively trying to protect your data - the first thing you should do is remove access to it from anyone but yourself. There is no reason to put this stuff out on the internet where it can be stolen.

[rknize]

http://thenextweb.com/google/2013/08/14/no-google-did-not-say-that-we-cant-expect-privacy-in-gmail/

[tp4tissue]

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

[TheQsanity]

It's your information you own it. It shouldn't be given away or sold without your permission.

[noisyturtle]

Gmails been pretty flakey for me since all the updates a few months ago. Important emails not being sent, incoming personal emails not being received. Not sure if they changed the way things go in and out or added some invisible filter, but I've switched over to Hotmail for important things in the interim.

[tp4tissue]

It's your information you own it. It shouldn't be given away or sold without your permission.

The concept of Ownership has already begun to change..  You can cling to your backwards thinking all you like... It won't stop people from riff'in your info and using it.

Look at the Media companies that try to controll music and movies..


Eventually we will only pay for Internet service.  and the Internet service will pay for all creation of mass media.

[tp4tissue]

Gmails been pretty flakey for me since all the updates a few months ago. Important emails not being sent, incoming personal emails not being received. Not sure if they changed the way things go in and out or added some invisible filter, but I've switched over to Hotmail for important things in the interim.

I can't get used to the "new" gmail smart composer.

I just want my text box back with 5 or 6 fonts... omg.. why.. they gotta go change that....


And seriously STOP ANIMATING things... freaking kids... I don't have time to watch the damn window animation... arrraaaaghghhhh

even if I did have the time, I wouldn't want to watch it...

[iri]

tl;dr... gmail shares your data to 'murica government?

[Luke]

Personally I prefer to just buy a domain and pay (hardly anything these days) for hosting.

Then you can have any features you like and get a more personal email address, when I see companies and professionals using @gmail.com it makes me cringe a little

[esoomenona]

Personally I prefer to just buy a domain and pay (hardly anything these days) for hosting.

Then you can have any features you like and get a more personal email address, when I see companies and professionals using @gmail.com it makes me cringe a little

And where will you send these emails?

[Leslieann]

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

And when some radical decided your favorite material is illegal and starts a which hunt?
Jews were legal in Germany before WW2.
It wasn't (and still isn't) illegal to be a socialist in this country before McCarthy went on his hunt.

It still isn't illegal to be a Muslim or gay in the U.S., but you might not know it in certain places. How about if you are either and the government knows it and decides to use it against you? I hate coming off as paranoid, conspiracy theorist, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up.

The more someone knows about you, the more they can use that against you, why do you think advertisers pay big money for data. Government isn't the only one you need/want to hide your data from.

It's your information you own it. It shouldn't be given away or sold without your permission.

It is your info and only you can give it away, and you do, by storing it on their systems. It's your data, stored on Google's servers. Google doesn't have ownership, but they have control of it. This is the core of the whole ownership issue

Personally I prefer to just buy a domain and pay (hardly anything these days) for hosting.

Then you can have any features you like and get a more personal email address, when I see companies and professionals using @gmail.com it makes me cringe a little

It's still someone else's server you store it on, therefore you are "giving" it away.

Unfortunately, running your own server actually puts you at higher risk of being hacked, since you know less about security than these companies do. Gmail and Mac mail has been hit before, and Hotmail has been hacked too many times to count

My personal server (running Linux) gets hit with a hack attempt once every 30 seconds and that's after firewalling Africa, Asia and Russia.


The feds can always just slip a box between you and the internet and get everything anyhow.

[davkol]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

Where have you been for past X years? In a cave? Anyway, Gmail's web interface doesn't have support for encryption. Never had. Won't have. Ever. Deal breaker.

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

Bull****.

Also, see Naked Citizen.

[tp4tissue]

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

And when some radical decided your favorite material is illegal and starts a which hunt?
Jews were legal in Germany before WW2.
It wasn't (and still isn't) illegal to be a socialist in this country before McCarthy went on his hunt.

It still isn't illegal to be a Muslim or gay in the U.S., but you might not know it in certain places. How about if you are either and the government knows it and decides to use it against you? I hate coming off as paranoid, conspiracy theorist, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up.

The more someone knows about you, the more they can use that against you, why do you think advertisers pay big money for data. Government isn't the only one you need/want to hide your data from.

I don't mind advertising companies watching me. I got adblock.

They're always watching somebody, May as well watch me, because I'm pretty awesome.


Racism.. racism is costly and bad for business in developed nations.

Some injustice will always fall through the cracks, This is the price we pay to hold MORE people accountable, which in the end, justifies the means.

[tp4tissue]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

Where have you been for past X years? In a cave? Anyway, Gmail's web interface doesn't have support for encryption. Never had. Won't have. Ever. Deal breaker.

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

Bull****.

Also, see Naked Citizen.

Nothing to hide is problematic for people who seek to use informational advantage "FOR PROFIT"

It is our goal to achieve 99.9% efficiency in terms of resource appropriation. 

IN that light,  nothing-to-hide is the ONLY way to do so.


The reason you feel ripped off when you buy something is because someone WITH-HELD information from you, thus leading to an inefficient judgement on your part.


Imagine a world where people can't do this...  and more so, DO NOT WANT to do this...

THAT is the world I'd like to live in.

[davkol]

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

And when some radical decided your favorite material is illegal and starts a which hunt?
Jews were legal in Germany before WW2.
It wasn't (and still isn't) illegal to be a socialist in this country before McCarthy went on his hunt.

It still isn't illegal to be a Muslim or gay in the U.S., but you might not know it in certain places. How about if you are either and the government knows it and decides to use it against you? I hate coming off as paranoid, conspiracy theorist, but there is plenty of evidence to back this up.

The more someone knows about you, the more they can use that against you, why do you think advertisers pay big money for data. Government isn't the only one you need/want to hide your data from.

I don't mind advertising companies watching me. I got adblock.

They're always watching somebody, May as well watch me, because I'm pretty awesome.


Racism.. racism is costly and bad for business in developed nations.

Some injustice will always fall through the cracks, This is the price we pay to hold MORE people accountable, which in the end, justifies the means.

Makes one wonder, why the government wants us to be open, when they refuse to act transparently.

[davkol]

Ewww. And I was thinking about switching to gmail as my daily driver. Gmail has everything nowadays. Other emails can't compete.

Where have you been for past X years? In a cave? Anyway, Gmail's web interface doesn't have support for encryption. Never had. Won't have. Ever. Deal breaker.

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

What are you people hiding... I call bull**** on all the "PRIVACY" you supposidly need...

No one cares that ya'll spank it to off-brand pr0n..

Bull****.

Also, see Naked Citizen.

Nothing to hide is problematic for people who seek to use informational advantage "FOR PROFIT"

It is our goal to achieve 99.9% efficiency in terms of resource appropriation. 

IN that light,  nothing-to-hide is the ONLY way to do so.


The reason you feel ripped off when you buy something is because someone WITH-HELD information from you, thus leading to an inefficient judgement on your part.


Imagine a world where people can't do this...  and more so, DO NOT WANT to do this...

THAT is the world I'd like to live in.

Have you even read the essay? Nope. Please, do so before responding. Otherwise, discussion is pointless.

[sth]

all you guys talking about hosting your own email... have fun with that. just get a shared hosting account with a local, trustworthy ISP/host and let them handle the mail. That way you don't have to worry about getting blacklisted.

[digi]

all you guys talking about hosting your own email... have fun with that. just get a shared hosting account with a local, trustworthy ISP/host and let them handle the mail. That way you don't have to worry about getting blacklisted.

Then you're married to that ISP.

[rknize]

I think that a lot of people posting in this thread aren't very familiar with how email works on the Internet.  Regardless of any local encryption that you may use with your ISP or portal (SSL, etc) and regardless of any TOS that you signed with any of them, your email messages are sent free and clear through as many foreign systems as it takes to reach its destination.  You have little to no control over this.  At each hop, the message sits on that host's storage medium until it is able to transmit it to the next hop.  It is neither encrypted nor protected.  For practical reasons, the server wants to get rid of it as soon as it can and deletes it once it does.  However, there is no technical reason why it can't keep your message indefinitely.  The only way to protect your message is to encrypt it before you send it with PGP or similar.  That is a hassle, though.  You should never send sensitive information via email.  This has always been the case since the very beginning.

I've been hosting my own email for almost 15 years.  It's not that difficult.  That said, I freely use Gmail and Yahoo addresses as portals to send and receive emails in addition to the ones I host myself.  Using Gmail and the others is no different than my message sitting on some foreign server somewhere.

[Findecanor]

I was going to suggest the use of an email alias, but it does not work correctly with gmail's current composer...

[rowdy]

I host my own email server, but ultimately the emails are passed across a public network, and through various other servers I have no control over and where I do not even know if a copy of the emails is being stored.

[korrelate]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

Why would the government want to steal your soap?

[SpAmRaY]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

Why would the government want to steal your soap?

Probably how they came up with soap on a rope.

[rowdy]

I'm not switching. I don't do anything illegal over e-mail anyways. Or anything illegal.

I don't think any of us do. The point is your personal information is exposed to Google and the government.

The legal/illegal thing is missing the point: what if you are developing a new product (a dish soap, a better mousetrap or an awesome chocolate chip cookie). What if you are a salesman and you want to keep your book of business to yourself? If you are a law-abiding citizen, shouldn't you be able to keep your competitive edge and keep these things secret? Of course you should.

Why would the government want to steal your soap?

Probably how they came up with soap on a rope.

Now there's something I haven't seen for a long time!  Is soap on a rope still made?

[iri]

eh?