Well, stupid but crucial question

[Rebel]

I am sure that my absence wasnt noted since i have a few posts around here  , but there is a question that only here could have been answered.
Even though I dont post often, I do read quite a lot, many posts are quite interesting if you have the keyboard bug, even a little.

A couple of days ago, I got in my hands for free a razer BW Ultimate. I already own a BW (the normal version) and it wasnt much of a "surprise".
I was searching for mods for this keyboard, keycaps, lighting mods, and so forth. I've read some reviews and most of keyboard specialists reviewing this are throwing so much **** at it like its the bottom of the sewer... I dont think that is actually THAT bad.
Is it the price? The materials? I didnt have the opportunity to use a Filco, a Das or a Ducky to compare first hand...

A friend suggested to sell them both (BW & BW Ultimate) and get a Filco or something.
By searching the forum, I saw one post about entry mechanical keyboards so there is a quote:

anyways after a week/month after fascination will go off do  yourself  a favour and go to ur mate or shop which has top noch quality keyboards such as ducky with pbt or filco and compare with blackwidow......... u'll understand why people are like that for razer keyboards....

I really dont get it. I also have an old ALPS keyboard and an IBM Model M. The Model M, is built like a tank, but most them keyboards are made in such a way back then.
Personally, i find it quite amusing, as I love Cherry MX Blues (clicky switches whatever). Your opinions ?

[rowdy]

I like MX blues too, although I have found that I prefer blacks.

I am currently endeavouring to obtain a keyboard with MX greens - the best of both worlds.

Disclaimer: this post was typed on one of my Model Ms, while my HHKB is resting in the corner.

[goobus]

This might be a crime to say around here, but I'll say it anyways. In the times I've used/tried BWs I actually find the click and feel to be superior to the feeling of my Filco TKL MX blues. Not sure what it is, but probably has to do with how the keycaps are rubber coated.  The filco in comparison feels really scratchy, rattly and gross.

[genkidama]

I think what the TS meant was, why so many consider the Razer Black Widow (Ultimate) to be such a bad board and if it is due to the pricing or other stuff.

I did not own a Razer BW, but I typed on it numerous times in the store as it is the more common "mech" in stores to find. All the other "major" mech companies aren't covered in local stores. Well Razer is more known, I'm sorry I cannot phrase this good enough to make my point.
But still, as I typed on it and had a SteelSeries 6Gv2, which is also not all that great for the price, it seems the 6Gv2 seems a little better. So I think the bad rep the BW (Ultimate) get is due to build quality, maybe support and style of the keyboard as the majority loves the simplicity in mechs rather a futuristic style ^^
But I still found it great to type on as it was quite nice for the clickyness and the typing was really smooth. So I guess this is not the factor why the BW is not that liked around geekhackers

Just my 2 cents.

[tp4tissue]

I think what the TS meant was, why so many consider the Razer Black Widow (Ultimate) to be such a bad board and if it is due to the pricing or other stuff.

I did not own a Razer BW, but I typed on it numerous times in the store as it is the more common "mech" in stores to find. All the other "major" mech companies aren't covered in local stores. Well Razer is more known, I'm sorry I cannot phrase this good enough to make my point.
But still, as I typed on it and had a SteelSeries 6Gv2, which is also not all that great for the price, it seems the 6Gv2 seems a little better. So I think the bad rep the BW (Ultimate) get is due to build quality, maybe support and style of the keyboard as the majority loves the simplicity in mechs rather a futuristic style ^^
But I still found it great to type on as it was quite nice for the clickyness and the typing was really smooth. So I guess this is not the factor why the BW is not that liked around geekhackers

Just my 2 cents.

if the new version has a steel plate.. there's probably not going to be too much wrong with it...

[esoomenona]

That's what I was wondering. Are the BWs only PCB mounted? A number of people associate weight with quality and might think PCB flex is a sign of bad quality as well, so without knowing about how keyboards are put together or with the knowledge but without consideration of it, they may start to bash it because its also the cool thing to do.

Then there is also talk of the caps. Well, that's not really fair, as most people here replace the caps anyway. Most stock caps suck.

I've never typed of a BW, but all in all, I truly wonder if they're actually as bad as they're made out to be.

[genkidama]

if the new version has a steel plate.. there's probably not going to be too much wrong with it...

Are the other mechs having a steel plate build in?

That's what I was wondering. Are the BWs only PCB mounted? A number of people associate weight with quality and might think PCB flex is a sign of bad quality as well, so without knowing about how keyboards are put together or with the knowledge but without consideration of it, they may start to bash it because its also the cool thing to do.

Then there is also talk of the caps. Well, that's not really fair, as most people here replace the caps anyway. Most stock caps suck.

I've never typed of a BW, but all in all, I truly wonder if they're actually as bad as they're made out to be.

To me the keyboard was totally fine, typing was very good and stuff like that. I just didn't like the style/design of the keyboard as it just doesn't fit me. So I don't know why it gets bashed so hard here, but still I just typed on it at stores and never had a long-time experience with it. Maybe this reveals why it's "such a bad mech to buy".

[Lycoth]

It's mostly down to the build quality.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37670.0

Scroll down to the post by Wetto, it has pictures of an iOne controller (The OEM of the Blackwidow).

Also to quote ShortStock, "all the "hate" that Razer gets here is due to the fact that the geekhack community knows to look deeper into the product that most consumers will ever care about.  some people just want the most out of their hard earned money.  most people would care less"

Which I somewhat agree with. A normal keyboard user isn't going to care about the quality of the controller unless it actually gives up on life. But with so much competition the Keyboard Enthusiasts ruthlessly criticize anything that can be dubbed inferior.

Personally the Razer Blackwidow was my first Mechanical Keyboard. It was okay, I wouldn't specifically recommend it to my friends because I feel there is  so much better available in that price range, but I dislike Razers way of "branding" more than I dislike the actual keyboard.

[mapple]

It's mostly down to the build quality.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37670.0

Scroll down to the post by Wetto, it has pictures of an iOne controller (The OEM of the Blackwidow).

Also to quote ShortStock, "all the "hate" that Razer gets here is due to the fact that the geekhack community knows to look deeper into the product that most consumers will ever care about.  some people just want the most out of their hard earned money.  most people would care less"

Which I somewhat agree with. A normal keyboard user isn't going to care about the quality of the controller unless it actually gives up on life. But with so much competition the Keyboard Enthusiasts ruthlessly criticize anything that can be dubbed inferior.

Personally the Razer Blackwidow was my first Mechanical Keyboard. It was okay, I wouldn't specifically recommend it to my friends because I feel there is  so much better available in that price range, but I dislike Razers way of "branding" more than I dislike the actual keyboard.

THIS. first quote was mine from other topic, i also wrote right there that it was my first mech keyboard after few years. Few things to straight up right here.
1) it's very good entry level cause you will be very well prepaid to appreciate higher quality with any board....
2) for my personal experience coming from using it, that's why i wrote that guy above is 100% right, support, build quality ........ and last thing for that Euros/bucks you can get really decent keyboard which will not push you out from mech keyboards......
imagine that each user on the world would buy razer for first keyboard........ half of them would have like me problems with keycaps, cables and then controllers....... if for that time they wouldn't be in love in mech they would be off topic for long time and spreading around info that it's pricy piece of crap.........(which in fact is built on their own experience).

[Linkbane]

The issue was that most of the BWU's (the ones before the 2013 version) were build by a company (Zowie?) which had horrible quality control and keys malfunctioned everywhere. Now the only complaint I have are the horrendous font and the exorbitant price (over that of a Shine, a much superior board).

EDIT: Thanks Lycoth, it was iOne, I just couldn't remember the name. I did hear that they switched manufacturers and it's all good now, but if there's rust in a keyboard, the manufacturers are inexcusable.

[Lycoth]

The issue was that most of the BWU's (the ones before the 2013 version) were build by a company (Zowie?) which had horrible quality control and keys malfunctioned everywhere. Now the only complaint I have are the horrendous font and the exorbitant price (over that of a Shine, a much superior board).

The OEM was iOne, and if the OEM thred by Hyde is to be considered accurate (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37861.0) then the 2013 model is the same OEM and has the same build quality.

Completely agree with mapple. It suited me perfectly as a starter mech.

Edit: Just to note, I just noticed that there is on that OEM thread, something about rust on the plate mount of the Razer Blackwidow, and on a Das too. As Rowdy pointed out it was quite possibly a manufacturing fault. Not something I've heard of before mind you, but quite interesting to know.

[CPTBadAss]

I started on a BlackWidow keyboard. I got it on sale and I thought for what I paid, which was $60, it was a great starter board. It's plate mounted. The Blues in it felt nice. I even kind of liked the Razer logo all lit up with blue LEDs.

I *hated* the finish on the case and the software that Razer forced me to use. But it wasn't a *terrible* board. Maybe meh, but certainly not unusable.

It lasted me a year and I wrote all of my blog entries on TeamLiquid with it. It was still great when I decided to sell it to a friend who is happily typing away on one now.

[dorkvader]

The issue was that most of the BWU's (the ones before the 2013 version) were build by a company (Zowie?) which had horrible quality control and keys malfunctioned everywhere. Now the only complaint I have are the horrendous font and the exorbitant price (over that of a Shine, a much superior board).

It's iOne.

Also, Zowie is not an OEM as far as I know, though their celeritas is supposed to be decent quality. It also reportedly sports nylon keycaps.

I would like to echo the other's statements here: the OEM of razer is not well respected with good reason. looking at the internals reveals poor soldering, quality control, and design issues. I also think I remember the stabilizers being of lower quality.

That said, it should perform adequately, and if you're happy with it, might as well keep it, but if you want to now what all the fuss is about, sell both and get a different keyboard. (ducky with PBT looks nice, QFR's are always a good choice, can't go wrong with a filco, if you can afford one.)

[CPTBadAss]

I would like to echo the other's statements here: the OEM of razer is not well respected with good reason. looking at the internals reveals poor soldering, quality control, and design issues. I also think I remember the stabilizers being of lower quality.

Now that you reminded me, the stabilizers were bad. Very thin and brittle Costar-esque inserts. I also never opened the keyboard up so I didn't get to see the soldering work. I never had an issue with any of the quality control but I've also heard lots of issues with their QC process.

[IvanIvanovich]

If I was in your situation I would also sell the pair of them. Selling on say ebay you should be able to get at least $120 for the two of them. That's plenty of money for most other keyboard.

I'm not totally sure but I think Zowie is also made by datacomp like Steelseries.

[Lycoth]

I started on a BlackWidow keyboard. I got it on sale and I thought for what I paid, which was $60, it was a great starter board. It's plate mounted. The Blues in it felt nice. I even kind of liked the Razer logo all lit up with blue LEDs.

I *hated* the finish on the case and the software that Razer forced me to use. But it wasn't a *terrible* board. Maybe meh, but certainly not unusable.

It lasted me a year and I wrote all of my blog entries on TeamLiquid with it. It was still great when I decided to sell it to a friend who is happily typing away on one now.

Pretty much exactly how I feel. I didn't hate it. I just wouldn't recommend it anymore. Oddly enough, Out of a Filco MJ2, SS 6GV2, and the BW, The BW was the only one that didn't break eventually. Even my Filco died recently in the hands of its new owner!

[terrpn]

It's mostly down to the build quality.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37670.0

Scroll down to the post by Wetto, it has pictures of an iOne controller (The OEM of the Blackwidow).

Also to quote ShortStock, "all the "hate" that Razer gets here is due to the fact that the geekhack community knows to look deeper into the product that most consumers will ever care about.  some people just want the most out of their hard earned money.  most people would care less"

Which I somewhat agree with. A normal keyboard user isn't going to care about the quality of the controller unless it actually gives up on life. But with so much competition the Keyboard Enthusiasts ruthlessly criticize anything that can be dubbed inferior.

Personally the Razer Blackwidow was my first Mechanical Keyboard. It was okay, I wouldn't specifically recommend it to my friends because I feel there is  so much better available in that price range, but I dislike Razers way of "branding" more than I dislike the actual keyboard.

exactly............good post

other than my model m, bwu was my first mechanical keyboard

still have it, still use, has never gave me any problems and yes i do like it

however that being said if i had been better educated about mechanical keyboards i am sure i would have probably bought something else

yes............i replaced the keycaps as they are horrible and replaced with pbt which makes all the difference in the world. i even like the macros.

[berserkfan]

I would like to suggest that Razer has earned a bad rep by having lower build quality in comparison with other keyboards priced similarly. EG Razer has plastic casing that is notorious for attracting dust and being cracked easily, in contrast with the metal casing on many other keyboards at a similar price range.

Razer also flexes more than other keyboards of the similar price range, since it has a less rigid build.

There is also the annoying variation in the keycaps - eg spacebar and some modifiers on bottom row are of a different measurement from OEMs, so you can't use a normal OEM keycap set.

To make things worse, Razer is the only big brand to offer on the fly macro recording. It is only too easy to accidentally record macros while gaming, then when you are using the keyboard, you accidentally press a macro button and keyboard winds up spamming nonsense that was accidentally recorded on the fly when gaming.

Most of the hate against Razer is really quite silly. Razer probably sells more keyboards than CMStorm, Filco, Rosewill, Leopold, Ducky, Deck and MaxNighthawk combined, so don't be surprised to hear that it has at least as many complaints. Furthermore, Razer sells to everybody including seven year old kids who get them for Christmas presents and boorish drunk gamers who hammer away like crazy, so Razers get a lot of abuse. In contrast, Filco's buyers tend to be more mature keyboard enthusiasts on Geekhack, so they won't abuse their keyboards.

I think the average Razer gets 3-4x as much bad treatment as the average Filco, so don't be surprised to hear it spoils 3-4x faster. Then consider that Razer probably outsells Filco 15:1. Do the math, and it's perfectly normal for Razer to spoil 50x more often than Filco!

That's what I was wondering. Are the BWs only PCB mounted? A number of people associate weight with quality and might think PCB flex is a sign of bad quality as well, so without knowing about how keyboards are put together or with the knowledge but without consideration of it, they may start to bash it because its also the cool thing to do.

Then there is also talk of the caps. Well, that's not really fair, as most people here replace the caps anyway. Most stock caps suck.

I've never typed of a BW, but all in all, I truly wonder if they're actually as bad as they're made out to be.

[MKULTRA]

People don't like them here cause they are ugly, incompatible with most custom keysets, and geared more towards casual users or gamers.  Geekhack is a keyboard enthusiast community, therefor we appreciate higher end keyboards.  I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the keyboard for casual users and gamers, but they do not really meet the overall taste of the community.  An analogy to this would be audiophile's disliking Beats by Dr. Dre.

[Hellmark]

The BWU's I've seen had light keycaps, felt scratchy, and generally didn't seem to have a good build quality. These were both on BWU2013s as well.

Now the comment about keycap quality being unfair comparison since most people here switch out, well, that's not a factor here. I've never swapped out for third party keycaps. So for someone used to lower quality keycaps to complain, well, then it may really be an issue.

[wetto]

I'm not so sure that the OEM Razer uses nowadays is still iOne...  Several clues have indicated to me that it's nowdays Solid Year (2013 models and Tournament).

The overall quality of the old 2009 lines were crap indeed, iOne managed to make lots and lots of faulty units of the Razer Blackwidow and Razer Blackwidow Ultimate and even if it wasn't faulty it was still bad, that's true and undeniable. And at the same time, people, especially Razer fanboys, would defend such keyboards over the course of years and years, making it seem like a holy grail of Mechanical Keyboards be it 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012. And at the same time, of course, people who knew stuff about keyboards would get mad at them. That's one of the many reasons for its "hate".

But still, Carter Salley (responsible for CM Storm peripherals) seems to admit that their CM Quick Fire TKs come from the same factory (and so does Corsair) as Razer 2013 keyboards and told me that the G710+ is surely made in the same factory.  Meanwhile, Matias seems to be sure that the Logitech G710+ is made by Solid Year and that'd pretty much explain why its keycaps are so bad while the soldering is nice. And after I opened both Logitech G710+ and Corsair K70 up I noticed several resemblances between them...

Anyways, regarding the bad soldering, yes, that was a common issue in the older models, I'm not gonna deny that. But now, I really do have to defend at least the Razer Blackwidow Tournament edition, which has this PCB:



As hard as it is to admit, thing looks far nicer than any of my Costar boards.

An analogy to this would be audiophile's disliking Beats by Dr. Dre.

I'm not so sure about that... 

Razer may not be the highest quality brand as their marketing makes them seem to be, but they're not THAT horrible... 

There's no words to describe how overrated and ridiculous Beats headphones are, Razer doesn't even comes close. I'd type on a Razer keyboard all day, even a bloody Razer Lycosa, but having to use a Beats Studio headphone is something that'd only happen on my worst nightmares.

[1391406]

I've owned a Razer BW and I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the switches feel. Part of the problem for me was the layout. I didn't like where they placed the macros(left hand side of the keyboard), namely because I kept hitting them by accident. I also didn't care for the font at all. I would've much preferred a regular font. Lastly, I wasn't crazy about the shiny finish, which was great at showing every granule of dust. Someone else in my house uses it now, but it still works great.

[MKULTRA]

An analogy to this would be audiophile's disliking Beats by Dr. Dre.

I'm not so sure about that... 

Razer may not be the highest quality brand as their marketing makes them seem to be, but they're not THAT horrible... 

There's no words to describe how overrated and ridiculous Beats headphones are, Razer doesn't even comes close. I'd type on a Razer keyboard all day, even a bloody Razer Lycosa, but having to use a Beats Studio headphone is something that'd only happen on my worst nightmares.

You completely missed the point of my post but whatever.

[Matias]

Most of the hate against Razer is really quite silly. Razer probably sells more keyboards than CMStorm, Filco, Rosewill, Leopold, Ducky, Deck and MaxNighthawk combined, so don't be surprised to hear that it has at least as many complaints. Furthermore, Razer sells to everybody including seven year old kids who get them for Christmas presents and boorish drunk gamers who hammer away like crazy, so Razers get a lot of abuse. In contrast, Filco's buyers tend to be more mature keyboard enthusiasts on Geekhack, so they won't abuse their keyboards.

From what I've heard, Razer is selling upwards of 70K per month.

[rowdy]

Most of the hate against Razer is really quite silly. Razer probably sells more keyboards than CMStorm, Filco, Rosewill, Leopold, Ducky, Deck and MaxNighthawk combined, so don't be surprised to hear that it has at least as many complaints. Furthermore, Razer sells to everybody including seven year old kids who get them for Christmas presents and boorish drunk gamers who hammer away like crazy, so Razers get a lot of abuse. In contrast, Filco's buyers tend to be more mature keyboard enthusiasts on Geekhack, so they won't abuse their keyboards.

From what I've heard, Razer is selling upwards of 70K per month.

Probably because many (most?) retailers stock Razer mouses and also Razer keyboards, and people think they are pretty neat and buy the set.

You have to look around a bit to find a proper mechanical keyboard.

At least that is the situation in Australia.

[Fullcream]

At times I have been very unimpressed with the quality of a couple different Razer products.   In my country's online classifieds almost every second hand mechanical keyboard for sale is a Razer BW.